'Beyond the Roundabout'

Kess73

RareVintage wrote: »

Kess, I agree absolutely. When I said that the film is not a documentary, that's because, having watched it I would say, if asked "A documentary? No that film is definitely not a documentary, it's an art-house piece or an installation piece that reflects some documentary issues from a particular perspective, but it's not a documentary..."

I would guess that blurb you quote was not written by Larkin, but by a PR person in the Arts Council. Only guessing mind...
I think "merging documentary with ..." is on the one hand misleading and on the other not so. I think "documentary" in this context refers specifically to an art style as opposed to "this film is part documentary film and part art film" - in that sense it's not misleading (to the likes of me at least, who is removed from the context and from any similar experience). I can quite see how it is misleading if you're from Limerick and you read a blurb that gives the impression that some guy is coming to make a documentary about regeneration of estates etc.
Art, like law or politics, has its own jargon, its own way of describing itself.

It's only my opinion but I'd say that the Arts Council or the Belltable PR people should have been much more sensitive to the (I think predictable) expectations of Limerick residents, and the likes of Cathal above, when they send in a film maker (as opposed to an artist) to make a film with "documentary" in the blurb (as opposed to an art piece that incorporates some documentary elements/style). Surely they could have imagined that people affected by severe issues, that have been kept largely under the media radar outside of Limerick at least, would have expectations and strong feelings.

Arts Council types can be terribly condescending when it comes to "working people", maybe they assumed that an "artist" coming to make an "art film" wouldn't be welcomed or understood in a "poor area". It's an attitude that's typical (though there are/have been exceptions) through history. It's a common misconception that only "educated" people can understand art. That's why Banksy is one of my art-world heroes! Marcel Duchamp is the archetypical hero of "go **** yourself" art when he found a ceramic urinal, signed it and entered it for an exhibition.

I would love to see a documentary film "Roundabout Limerick" that actually documents some of the problems, solutions, people and diversity of Limerick.
Maybe a committee could apply for Arts Council funding
For a start, politicians and the political structures need a good dose of apportioning of responsibility going back 40 years...

Maybe it was written by somebody else, but as it is on Mr Larkin's personal website, then he has control over what gets said there and how his project gets described there.



A massive +1 on Banksy though.

luvvie dahling

RareVintage wrote: »

... I would say, if asked "A documentary? No that film is definitely not a documentary, it's an art-house piece or an installation piece that reflects some documentary issues from a particular perspective, but it's not a documentary..."

I would guess that blurb you quote was not written by Larkin, but by a PR person in the Arts Council. Only guessing mind...
I think "merging documentary with ..." is on the one hand misleading and on the other not so. I think "documentary" in this context refers specifically to an art style as opposed to "this film is part documentary film and part art film" - in that sense it's not misleading (to the likes of me at least, who is removed from the context and from any similar experience). I can quite see how it ismisleading if you're from Limerick and you read a blurb that gives the impression that some guy is coming to make a documentary about regeneration of estates etc.
Art, like law or politics, has its own jargon, its own way of describing itself.It's only my opinion but I'd say that the Arts Council or the Belltable PR people should have been much more sensitive to the (I think predictable) expectations of Limerick residents, and the likes of Cathal above, when they send in a film maker (as opposed to an artist) to make a film with "documentary" in the blurb (as opposed to an art piece that incorporates some documentary elements/style). Surely they could have imagined that people affected by severe issues, that have been kept largely under the media radar outside of Limerick at least, would have expectations and strong feelings.

Arts Council types can be terribly condescending when it comes to "working people", maybe they assumed that an "artist" coming to make an "art film" wouldn't be welcomed or understood in a "poor area". It's an attitude that's typical (though there are/have been exceptions) through history. It's a common misconception that only "educated" people can understand art...

Just about this reply: It seems to me(and perhaps I'm wrong) as if you are saying that the disappointed reaction to the film came about because Mr Larkin's film was either misrepresented by 'Arts Council Spin' or else that many of it's critics were either incapable of objectivity(coming from Limerick themselves) or simply too ignorant of the conventions of visual art to fully understand it.
Am I right? I couldn't be.

Say it aint so...

RareVintage

Well, not everyone was disappointed by the film.
I wasn't
Disappointment implies expectations, so I think that somebody from Limerick will have a different, almost certainly greater, set of expectations than say, me who has never lived there.
Similarly there are different kinds of objectivity, which is of course always in a "battle" with subjectivity. Again, if you're a Limerick resident you're likely to have a better, and broader, grasp of the local reality and at the same time more likely to have a greater emotional attachment to, or investment in, a film like this.
Just because a viewer like me is at a remove from the reality doesn't make me more objective, but it may mean that I have a different objectivity. Not least because I will necessarily be more ignorant of the issues involved than someone from Limerick.
You gotta love semantics!

As to the language issue, what I was trying to suggest was that some wires may have been allowed to be crossed by an arts agency using the word "documentary" in their blurb. In fact I was probably being too kind to whoever wrote the blurb. I was trying to suggest a possible source of the "disconnect" that occurred between filmmaker/promoter & local audience.

As Kess points out Larkin is happy for that blurb to stand, by having it on his website, so whoever actually wrote it is by the by.
Fundamentally, I'm left with the impression that a lot of locally involved Limerick residents would really appreciate a decent and balanced documentary being made that draws political attention to what appears to be shameful neglect of social issues that have their roots in mismanagement going back decades as well as highlighting local positive initiatives.
And this film was most certainly not it.
Having said that, art does I believe have a fundamentally valuable role role socially and politically and I think it unfair to heap too much criticism on this film for not fulfilling a role that the artist has argued he didn't in fact assume in the first place.

It's a shame that Nicky Larkin didn't revisit this thread to maybe correct some of my opinions/suggestions.
I might of course have misinterpreted a few things and it would be great if he decided to engage...

Cathal McCarthy

Shampster wrote: »

Just stumbled upon this thread and wound up watching the full version of "Beyond the roundabout" by Nicky Larkin...

I too was very, very disappointed in his depiction, especially when I read that it was supposed to be “a film about regeneration from the residents’ point of view” to quote Cathal McCarthy...

I am not from Limerick and I have never been to any of the places shown in the short film, but I was interested in learning more about these areas, as an Irish person... this is part of my country and I don't want to brush it under the carpet just because it's not in my back yard.

I felt that this 'documentary' was very one-sided and the 'artistic' choices made by Nicky were uninteresting, predictable and very amateur.

Documentaries are far more interesting when the film-maker keeps his opinions to himself and just shows us how it really is, rather than manipulating it. I hated that scene where the kid mimes firing a machine gun, it was so staged.

I wanted to know more about the good people of the estates, because nobody has shown us this yet and this is a far more interesting approach. I am sick of hearing about the joyriding etc, I want to see something different. I want to see and hear from the people who are silent, the people who are living in these areas because they love it. I then came across this little short film on youtube. It was created by a bunch of teenagers but is far more interesting than Nicky Larkin's short film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGVD5MFsidQ&NR=1

I found it ten times more moving and more passionate than Nicky Larkins short film. These kids showed the poverty, the misbehaviour, but also the heart.

You might like this then:

http://www.youtube.com/RegenerationWatch

Nicky Larkin

I have been called several times to respond to the comments, criticisms, and outright abuse posted on these boards.

Life is far too short to be bickering with people who have thousands of posts on boards.ie - indeed one particularly venomous (and borderline libelous) individual has amassed over 12,000 posts. Unfortunately for some, life is clearly far too long!

However, the only one thing that has irked me continuously has been the absolute and spectacular failure of many of these 'critics' to recognize or accept that this slow pace of shooting with little editing is the style in which I choose to shoot with, and not as a result of my "limitations as an editor", "laziness" etc as has been suggested here…..I first began employing this style in 2007, an example being my short film shot in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, Pripyat. I shot Beyond The Roundabout? in this same slow-paced style. And I have just completed shooting my first feature, shot in Israel & Palestine, which I am sure will also annoy you hugely when released, as I have chosen to employ the same slow-paced, minimalistic style.

I appreciate that the majority of people who watched Beyond The Roundabout? understood the artistic intent and minimalistic style.

However, regretfully the tone on these boards seems to be one where he who shouts the loudest (and for the longest) is clearly he who is "the rightest." So therefore up until this point I have chosen not to respond, as I just don't have the time to be shouting at great volume and length.

So now in an effort to correct and hopefully therefore enhance the understanding of the style in which I shot Beyond The Roundabout? (a film, for the record, that I am extremely proud of, and has been selected for numerous shows and film festivals at home and abroad), and also to finally answer the ignorant and plainly offensive questioning of my skills as a filmmaker/editor, here is a music video I have just completed (as a favour), in which I have chosen to employ a completely different visual style, pace and aesthetic. Clearly I'm no ****ing "fraud"……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q4BuPW1AaU

Now off ye go....back to ye're bitching and moaning and thousands of wasted hours on boards.ie.........

Kess73

Nicky Larkin wrote: »

I have been called several times to respond to the comments, criticisms, and outright abuse posted on these boards.

Life is far too short to be bickering with people who have thousands of posts on boards.ie - indeed one particularly venomous (and borderline libelous) individual has amassed over 12,000 posts. Unfortunately for some, life is clearly far too long!However, the only one thing that has irked me continuously has been the absolute and spectacular failure of many of these 'critics' to recognize or accept that this slow pace of shooting with little editing is the style in which I choose to shoot with, and not as a result of my "limitations as an editor", "laziness" etc as has been suggested here…..I first began employing this style in 2007, an example being my short film shot in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, Pripyat. I shot Beyond The Roundabout? in this same slow-paced style. And I have just completed shooting my first feature, shot in Israel & Palestine, which I am sure will also annoy you hugely when released, as I have chosen to employ the same slow-paced, minimalistic style.

I appreciate that the majority of people who watched Beyond The Roundabout? understood the artistic intent and minimalistic style.

However, regretfully the tone on these boards seems to be one where he who shouts the loudest (and for the longest) is clearly he who is "the rightest." So therefore up until this point I have chosen not to respond, as I just don't have the time to be shouting at great volume and length.

So now in an effort to correct and hopefully therefore enhance the understanding of the style in which I shot Beyond The Roundabout? (a film, for the record, that I am extremely proud of, and has been selected for numerous shows and film festivals at home and abroad), and also to finally answer the ignorant and plainly offensive questioning of my skills as a filmmaker/editor, here is a music video I have just completed (as a favour), in which I have chosen to employ a completely different visual style, pace and aesthetic. Clearly I'm no ****ing "fraud"……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q4BuPW1AaU

Now off ye go....back to ye're bitching and moaning and thousands of wasted hours on boards.ie.........

Care to clarify who you mean by this comment? Given that I am the only person in this thread with over 12,000 posts it would be easy to think that you are accusing me of being venomous towards you and borderline libelous.

You say that up to this point you had not responded but you did post earlier in the thread, and you will see that I was one who said fair play to you for replying on the topic.

I think the majority of folk in this thread were not abusive towards you, were not venomous towards you, and there is certainly nothing that could be deemed borderline libelous.

The quality of your work is not being questioned, neither is it's aestethic quality, but the pre release synopsis of the work was/is misleading in my eyes, and if you read through my posts, that is my issue with the work. I also commented at some point during the thread that any work of art that can provoke strong response (regardless of whether the respoonse is positive or negative, gushing or critical) has shown itself to be a valid work. Apathy would be the deathblow, imho of course, of the validity of any work as a piece of art.

So maybe as a courtesy to someone who has met and spoken to you, and who has been at two of your openings, you will clarify on here what you mean by "indeed one particularly venomous (and borderline libelous) individual has amassed over 12,000 posts.", if it is in relation to this thread, and if it is not, then please come on and state that the accusation of borderline libelous comments are not in this thread.


Of course if I am the individual you are referring to, please point out where I am, as you have said, venomous towards you personally, and certainly point out what I said that is libelous or borderline libelous towards you or towards an opinion piece which all art is.

I hope that the mods will leave the thread open for long enough for you to reply and for you to clear up things one way or the other.

Insect Overlord

Mod note: I closed this thread for 40 minutes so that I could read through it again and make sure everything was above board.

At this point I'd appreciate it if Nicky Larkin could post again to address the points made by Kess73.

I'd also like to remind posters that making an argument personal is detrimental to the quality of a thread. Stay calm, make your points without resorting to insulting/offensive language, and you'll be given a fair chance to have your point heard.

Kess73

Nicky Larkin wrote: »

"Seems to me that if the 'Artist' involved wanted to make an award winning piece to win accolades and gushing respect from other Arty types and guarantee himself future funding to keep in comfortable in his International lifestyle doing God knows what in Amsterdam".....Raiser, 31-05-2010, 10.35, boards.ie

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, traducement, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image. It is usually a requirement that this claim be false and that the publication is communicated to someone other than the person defamed (the claimant).

I have never in my life lived in Amsterdam. That is a complete fabrication; designed to carry a very obvious implication. I don't think I need to point out what's potentially libelous or slanderous about that statement, and further to that how that statement could result in a future loss of earnings.

While I accept that the above was not a statement made by Kess73, it was never the less posted on this thread over a year ago, and still remains to this day.

Maybe you should have double checked who you were blaming for the comment then, as you were well able to be specific in who you were wrongly blaming for what you called a borderline libelous comment.

indeed one particularly venomous (and borderline libelous) individual has amassed over 12,000 posts. Unfortunately for some, life is clearly far too long

is what you said and I am the only poster in the thread with 12,000+ posts. It could be argued that wrongly calling me venomous and saying life was too long for me was borderline slanderous.;)


As for Amsterdam, well I have no idea as to why you are connected to there as I myself commented near the start of the thread.

As for the piece in question, my main problem with it, and still is, lies in the use of the word documentary. I just don't think it is accurate to claim that the piece merges documentary with experimental film and video-art (as is still stated on your personal website). I think I said earlier in the thread that without the word documentary your work in this case becomes far more valid for me. But the great thing about any piece is that the interpretation by each viewer is quite subjective.

You may have taken umbrage at what you have read in this thread, but a more positive spin would be that your work has prompted debate and was seen by people who may not have bothered to watch it if not for this thread. You yourself commented that even negative opinions would be valued, so take the good and the bad verdicts as a compliment as emotive opinions validates art in my eyes and it would have been far worse if folks showed apathy to your work.

BTW thank you for responding to my post, and I would like to think that maybe you would consider joining in on here more often with regards to your work and that of others. As I think it could add a lot to the forum to have that kind of debate/imput.

zuroph

Nicky Larkin wrote: »

I have been called several times to respond to the comments, criticisms, and outright abuse posted on these boards.

Life is far too short to be bickering with people who have thousands of posts on boards.ie - indeed one particularly venomous (and borderline libelous) individual has amassed over 12,000 posts. Unfortunately for some, life is clearly far too long!

However, the only one thing that has irked me continuously has been the absolute and spectacular failure of many of these 'critics' to recognize or accept that this slow pace of shooting with little editing is the style in which I choose to shoot with, and not as a result of my "limitations as an editor", "laziness" etc as has been suggested here…..I first began employing this style in 2007, an example being my short film shot in the Chernobyl exclusion zone, Pripyat. I shot Beyond The Roundabout? in this same slow-paced style. And I have just completed shooting my first feature, shot in Israel & Palestine, which I am sure will also annoy you hugely when released, as I have chosen to employ the same slow-paced, minimalistic style.

I appreciate that the majority of people who watched Beyond The Roundabout? understood the artistic intent and minimalistic style.

However, regretfully the tone on these boards seems to be one where he who shouts the loudest (and for the longest) is clearly he who is "the rightest." So therefore up until this point I have chosen not to respond, as I just don't have the time to be shouting at great volume and length.

So now in an effort to correct and hopefully therefore enhance the understanding of the style in which I shot Beyond The Roundabout? (a film, for the record, that I am extremely proud of, and has been selected for numerous shows and film festivals at home and abroad), and also to finally answer the ignorant and plainly offensive questioning of my skills as a filmmaker/editor, here is a music video I have just completed (as a favour), in which I have chosen to employ a completely different visual style, pace and aesthetic. Clearly I'm no ****ing "fraud"……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q4BuPW1AaU

Now off ye go....back to ye're bitching and moaning and thousands of wasted hours on boards.ie.........

charming. Could not be bothered to listen to your childish **** now, and will definitely not be watching your documentary.

Boards is one of Irelands most popular websites, with thousands and thousands of daily users in your target demogrpahic, and your smart business sense is to come on and attack the entire population because of what one or two people said? And you think this proves you're smart?! :rolleye:

I'm embarrassed for you.

Nicky Larkin

At least I have the balls to use my own name. As I have found to my detriment on this very thread, it's all so easy being the anonymous hardened critic.

zuroph

Nicky Larkin wrote: »

There are very strong opinions on all sides involved, and it would be impossible for a piece such as this to please everybody. Each individual interpretation of a piece of art will be always be different; that is surely one of the most fascinating things about art? However, the price we pay for this element, is that not everybody is always going to be happy with what has been created. That, I'm afraid, is the nature of art.

However - as is illustrated here; there exists today a medium for debate like never before, with internet sites, blogs, boards etc.....and we live in a democracy. People don’t have to like this piece. And if people don't like this piece, then they don't have to stay silent about it. Everybody has the right to an opinion, and to express that opinion.

But, if as it has been claimed, there is such heated debate taking place about this film; and therefore Limerick regeneration in general, surely then it is highly-successful as a piece of art ???

You're a hypocrite. This was the mature response, now you're just throwing your toys out of the pram with cliched "you're all nerds" arguments.
You say you use your real name. whoopde****indoo. Anyone on here who wants my real name has it. I'm not hiding from anything. most of us arent.

I'm Mike McLoughlin. I stand over what I say, and I say you've embarrassed yourself here by having a little strop because someone didn't like your film. What's happened to the wellbalanced poster from a few months ago? Who pissed in your cornflakes?

nc2000

Arts council paying for more tripe from him:http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/nicky-larkin-israel-is-a-refuge-but-a-refuge-under-siege-3046227.html

bnt

nc2000 wrote: »

Arts council paying for more tripe from him:http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/nicky-larkin-israel-is-a-refuge-but-a-refuge-under-siege-3046227.html

Did you actually read that bit, all the way to the end?

Clareman

Normally I wouldn't see bringing a 7 month thread back from the dead touch and for, don't know what constitutes being a Zombie, normally 6 I guess but that depends on the thread, I don't see what resurrection link has to bring to the discussion so I'm just going to lock the thread.