VRT Megathread - ALL VRT DISCUSSION IN HERE - Read First Post

Eoin

I don't think anyone would disagree that it's unfair or unjust. But nobody has been able to provide any sort of definitive link to say it's illegal. When you start a campaign - no matter how noble it might be - on a false premise, then expect to be challenged on it.

As I said, "happy to pay VRT" is a slightly childish thing to say. I'm not "happy" paying any sort of tax, but I abide by the law and do so.

ryanstewart wrote:

2° The State accordingly guarantees to pass no law attempting to abolish the right of private ownership or the general right to transfer, bequeath, and inherit property.

Yet we also have capital gains / inheritance tax.

ryanstewart wrote:

As far as earning a living, I know of three people who have lost their jobs as their cars were seized and they couldn't afford the fine to release them. I have previously paid VRT myself, but this time I can't afford it, due to having to take a huge pay cut to keep working

If your budget doesn't cover the VRT then you can't afford the car. It's really that simple. Would you have as much sympathy for someone not having the use of their car because they couldn't afford to replace the clutch, despite knowing full well they would need to?

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

As far as earning a living, I know of three people who have lost their jobs as their cars were seized and they couldn't afford the fine to release them. I have previously paid VRT myself, but this time I can't afford it, due to having to take a huge pay cut to keep working - I now only earn just above minimum wage - but without going down the us v them thing - again! - that's another story for another thread;).

Your taking a huge leap there saying they are denying you the ability to earn a living.

Lets be hinest here, you bouht the car you wanted. You could have bought a car for the same price here, it just wouldnt have been the same car. You chose to go buy a car you couldnt afford.

ryanstewart wrote: »

and the Finnish case was not down to mistakes and due process. .

I assumed you were talking about the case linked in the newspaper articls about here.

Unless the Finnish system was identical to ours then it's not really relevant.
I'm assueming because ours is left alone then they were'nt identical.

ardmacha

The State is free to impose taxes on private property, you are free to buy a house, but the State makes you pay stamp duty.

If anyone wants to propose the removal of tax at present they have to indicate how the revenue can be made up elsewhere in addition to the extra taxes that are needed to clear the deficit.

VRT is not especially unpopular, it hasn't been an issue in any election.

ryanstewart

eoin wrote: »

If your budget doesn't cover the VRT then you can't afford the car. It's really that simple. Would you have as much sympathy for someone not having the use of their car because they couldn't afford to replace the clutch, despite knowing full well they would need to?

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.

And a reply has been posted which could replace it earlier on the page, and on the facebook page, which to be honest hasn't been dismissed out of hand by anyone, and I mean in politics, who has really looked at it. There are obvious arguments against elements of it, but that's what politicians are paid for - they can cherry pick it, add to it, edit it, but it can work.

As far as challenges to the campaign go, I'm happy to accept them too, as to be honest I've learned a lot over the last few weeks because of it. In all honesty I do believe it's a fair campaign, and will be worthwhile if it does go somewhere.

JHMEG

eoin wrote: »

As I said, "happy to pay VRT" is a slightly childish thing to say. I'm not "happy" paying any sort of tax, but I abide by the law and do so.

Nothing childish about it. A lot of people are happy to pay tax as long as they get something back from the state in exchange. Eg education, healthcare, and social welfare if necessary.

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.
.

Theres a low mileage Avensis with service history for an asking price of €2000 that doesnt need a new Turbo
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201018197854070

Theres plenty of perfectly good A-B cars well within that budget.

I could have sold you a car myself for less than half that.

You also could have brought in something from the UK and paid the VRT for less . The fact is you bought the car you wanted, knowing you couldnt legally afford it.

ryanstewart

Stekelly wrote: »

Theres a low mileage Avensis with service history for an asking price of €2000 that doesnt need a new Turbo
http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201018197854070

Theres plenty of perfectly good A-B cars well within that budget.

I could have sold you a car myself for less than half that.

You also could have brought in something from the UK and paid the VRT for less . The fact is you bought the car you wanted, knowing you couldnt legally afford it.

In fairness, it's not bad, but I got mine because I'm getting 60+mpg and it's diesel. I couldn't run a petrol car with the miles I do. Also has acres of boot room for prams etc. but i take your point. Doubt i'd get 2k for it now either.

Eoin

JHMEG wrote: »

Nothing childish about it. A lot of people are happy to pay tax as long as they get something back from the state in exchange. Eg education, healthcare, and social welfare if necessary.

That's a fair point, but I don't think it was being said in that context. I think it was implied that accepting you have to pay a legal tax is the same as being happy about paying it.

ryanstewart wrote:

My cars worth only about €2000, and it needs a new turbo, so I'm in both worlds!! Like many others, I'm not driving a high spec car either, and it really stuck in my throat paying it in previous years, but it gets me from A2B, and a similar motor in the republic would be a complete banger, wouldn't be reliable, and wouldn't be as fuel efficient.

I bet you could have found a decent car for €2,000 - let alone the cost of your car + VRT.

8vgti

Absurdum wrote: »

I really don't care about VRT and this campaign. You can spend anything from €100 to upwards of €1m on a car if you want, nobody is forcing anyone to pay mad VRT amounts. If you are so much against it, don't buy a car, problem solved.

Have you ever been to Donegal (if you even know were it is) if you have been you'll know you cant just hop on a bus or a train to get everywhere.

WISE UP

JHMEG wrote: »

While I agree with the principle of VRT you are correct to point out that it is a far from perfect system.

It's also true that if the cost of running the country was reduced then VRT could also be reduced.

Which leads me on to Donegal. My understanding is that the cost of running that county in wages to teachers, gardaí, nurses, the co council etc, is more than Donegal takes in from outside the county through tourism, manufacturing etc, and that the county is being subsidised by the likes of Dublin.

There is an element of cake-and-eating-it when counties that are taking more out of the pot than what they are putting in are looking for a discount on the amount they do put in.

THE PEOPLE OF DONEGAL DO THE BEST THEY CAN WITH THE RESOURCES THEY HAVE. Would you come to a county that WILL wreck your bushings if you bounce along the road dodging potholes trying not to bend wheels and save your tire walls for long enough.

You probably wouldn't come to Donegal any way as the majority of you dubs are so stuck up your on asses you can't see past Dublin:rolleyes:

-Chris-

8vgti wrote: »

You probably wouldn't come to Donegal any way as the majority of you dubs are so stuck up your on asses you can't see past Dublin:rolleyes:

Banned for 3 days for ignoring on-thread warnings.

Please bear in mind that re-reg'ing to get around a ban is against boards.ie rules and results in a site-ban.

donegalboy

Mob rule at work on the VRT facebook page... threats against named Customs Officers and other nonsense... hope we can keep the debate clean on boards.ie

Cookie_Monster

donegalboy wrote: »

Mob rule at work on the VRT facebook page... threats against named Customs Officers and other nonsense... hope we can keep the debate clean on boards.ie

What the hell, threatening people?

That is just not on and really shows that crowd up as not willing to face up to reality. If you want to protest it fine, do it peacefully and democratically and maybe you get things changed. Act like a bunch of fools by threatening you and you will loose support and make yourselves look stupid. I for one hopes the gardai take these threats seriously and do something about the people responsible for them before someone does something really stupid :mad:

donegalboy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What the hell, threatening people?

That is just not on and really shows that crowd up as not willing to face up to reality. If you want to protest it fine, do it peacefully and democratically and maybe you get things changed. Act like a bunch of fools by threatening you and you will loose support and make yourselves look stupid. I for one hopes the gardai take these threats seriously and do something about the people responsible for them before someone does something really stupid :mad:

Today on facebook a man using the name John Lyttle posted: "Sean K****** is an arrogant little prick, typical of all bullies, he's a big man in front of women and his staff but really a coward. If I ever run into him I'll knock the **** into him"...

Derry Boyo said: "I hope their (Customs officials) children get bullied and taunted in school and told 'your daddy is a bully' and 'your daddy throws women and children out of their cars and leave them standing at the roadside".

Theanswers

The last Customs officer I spoke to told me VRT may not be illegal but is unjust.
So even they dont agree 100% with what they are doing, some are not as strick as others. However you know the saying: you may talk yourself out of trouble with a guard but not with a customs officer!!

ryanstewart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What the hell, threatening people?

That is just not on and really shows that crowd up as not willing to face up to reality. If you want to protest it fine, do it peacefully and democratically and maybe you get things changed. Act like a bunch of fools by threatening you and you will loose support and make yourselves look stupid. I for one hopes the gardai take these threats seriously and do something about the people responsible for them before someone does something really stupid :mad:

I've been deleting such posts as they appear, as they do not represent the majority of people on the page - just look at the standoff on wednesday as an example - non-violent, peaceful protest - this is what the majority of people on the facebook group, and those who support what we are doing in the general public, are all about - a few hotheads can give anybody a bad name - it works the same for customs too - they are claiming they are professional at all times - absolute rubbish - and this was clearly evident in how they have dealt with this area in the last few days.

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

it works the same for customs too - they are claiming they are professional at all times - absolute rubbish - and this was clearly evident in how they have dealt with this area in the last few days.

very professionally. They could easily of gotten the gardai to pull her out of the car and arrest her for obstruction but they were decent about it and put up a lot of crap and stupidity from her. They were right to go back and seize it this next day, this was also done professionally from what I read of it.

MagicSean

Its disgraceful. Advocating violence against the children of customes officers. Requesting pickets of their family homes. You can delete the posts all you like but it shows the kind of people you have in the campaign.

-Chris-

donegalboy wrote: »

Mob rule at work on the VRT facebook page... threats against named Customs Officers and other nonsense... hope we can keep the debate clean on boards.ie

I can appreciate how hard it is for Ryan to keep his discussions clean if tempers are fraying, it's not easy.

On boards.ie's behalf though, I'll say that this kind of thing will not be tolerated and will be severely dealt with. I know our current community know where the line is drawn with regard to what's appropriate to say and what's inappropriate, but for any new posters, consider this a warning.

Vertakill

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

very professionally. They could easily of gotten the gardai to pull her out of the car and arrest her for obstruction but they were decent about it and put up a lot of crap and stupidity from her. They were right to go back and seize it this next day, this was also done professionally from what I read of it.

Completely agree with that.

I think this woman got away lightly in the end.

As has been said already, customs don't need a warrant and if you have the same NI reg'd SUV in your driveway, it's not like there's any danger that they might bust into the wrong house or anything.
So I don't see an issue with them seizing the car at her home.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

As Cookie_Monster mentioned, the Gardai could've been a helluva lot more heavy handed or just plain rude if they wanted to be without causing a scene.

I think VRT is ridiculous, but I also think an anti-VRT Facebook page, sitting in your car for 6 hours so it can't be seized, and sitting protesting on the ground in your driveway is also equally ridiculous.

donegalboy

ryanstewart wrote: »

I've been deleting such posts as they appear, as they do not represent the majority of people on the page - just look at the standoff on wednesday as an example - non-violent, peaceful protest - this is what the majority of people on the facebook group, and those who support what we are doing in the general public, are all about - a few hotheads can give anybody a bad name - it works the same for customs too - they are claiming they are professional at all times - absolute rubbish - and this was clearly evident in how they have dealt with this area in the last few days.

I see you have deleted some of your own nasty posts on facebook too!!
This is just another example of anti-establishment idealistic nonsense backed by Sinn Fein and trouble makers from Donegal and the north.
Until VRT is deemed illegal, you'll just have pay it like the rest of us.

ryanstewart

donegalboy wrote: »

I see you have deleted some of your own nasty posts on facebook too!!
This is just another example of anti-establishment idealistic nonsense backed by Sinn Fein and trouble makers from Donegal and the north.
Until VRT is deemed illegal, you'll just have pay it like the rest of us.

I don't back any party - this just happens to be a policy Sinn Fein share - this has cross party support locally - except from Fianna Fail - you would have heard labour councillor on the radio earlier voicing his disapproval of whats happening. I've received similar support from Fine Gael councillors. I've said it before - this affects everyone country wide - not just the "northerners" and as for your first comment - what a load of bull.

Guy:Incognito

ryanstewart wrote: »

I don't back any party.

Should you not either leave the FG group on facebook or join a few others too then?:)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I beleive FG were the ones to introduce the import duty on cars in the first place (the thing VRT was brought in to replace)

ryanstewart wrote: »

this has cross party support locally - except from Fianna Fail - you would have heard labour councillor on the radio earlier voicing his disapproval of whats happening. I've received similar support from Fine Gael councillors. I've said it before - this affects everyone country wide - not just the "northerners" and as for your first comment - what a load of bull.

It's very easy for parties in opposition to appease the masses. They dont have to do anything abou it. The proof is whether anything is done when they are in power. I dont think it's a big stretch to say that whoever forms the next government will go failry quiet on the VRT issue once in power.

FG could have gotten rid of VRT last time they were in office, but did'nt.

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

I've said it before - this affects everyone country wide - not just the "northerners" and as for your first comment - what a load of bull.

But a blind eye has been cast up there until now, so it's only now that you're kicking up a fuss about it because it's actually affecting you!

kdevitt

While not being a huge fan of VRT (especially given the thousands I've paid out on it over the years), I'm even less of a fan of these rabid mob driven groups that are driven by misinformation.

Your VRT payment is a registration fee - you'll find the exact same fee exists in the UK. That said, in the case of the UK its a fixed £55 registration fee - ours just happens to be based on a % of the OMSP.

Can't admit to being happy about it - but if it does disappear it will be the likes of me who'll get even further stung with a hit to my pay packet.

Macca6

Question to ryanstewart:

Why is your Facebook page entitled 'VRT -IT'S ILLEGAL' when you yourself have posted the following:

" I'm afraid they are right about the fact that VRT is technically a "legal" tax - it's a national tax which was initially an excise duty, but was changed to a national tax in 1993 to evade the reach of the EU. The EU don't like it but, aren't getting involved - there may be other technicalities that they can be beaten on though - i haven't looked into this one. Legal or not though VRT is wrong and has to go."

I'm confused :-p

Are you going to change the page to "VRT - IT'S WRONG"???

I'm all for the abolision of VRT but to me this page seems to be purely about trying to justify you and other members breaking the law by driving your uk registered vehicles! I'm astounded it hasn't been pulled yet by facebook!

Bonito

Hey look, the group creator is here. Ninja.

mizzieme

Gophur wrote: »

It may be targeted more, because it has the highest level of tax evaders.

If you get VRT abolished, where do you propose the missing tax revenue would come from?

would the bankers not be a good option?;) if they abolished VRT everybody across the country would get a car for a fair price does that not appeal to everybody- this is what makes everybody so cross up north that Donegal and the border counties would not be the only ones to benefit. Think about what tesco's did when everybody from dublin and beyond headed north for their shopping and booze. Mr Tesco had to get with the game and BC and the government need to do the same or we all need to change our occupation status to 'banker' free living, its a truly a ' free state' for them.

ryanstewart

Macca6 wrote: »

Why is your Facebook page entitled 'VRT -IT'S ILLEGAL' when you yourself have posted the following:


Are you going to change the page to "VRT - IT'S WRONG"???

I've said much earlier in this thread that I've learned a lot about this over the past month and have admitted mistakes have been made, however the enforcement tactics used are illegal - the events surrounding the standoff and subsequent seizure of the vehicle owned by the lady in greencastle are clear evidence of this. They cautioned Ms Davern in front of around 70 people in the carpark, told her they were releasing the vehicle to hear on condition that she accepts that she can expect to appear in a court by notification of the revenue commissioners. She had, by the way, offered to pay the fine on the spot, but had no money on her. She had phoned a friend who offered to pay it, but couldn't get down in time. They tried to get customs to accept credit card details over the phone - they refused - only wanted cash.

I was present when they seized her vehicle the next day - they waited until the tv cameras left, as utv and bbc wanted interviews about what happened - as soon as they left about 16 customs officers landed in - on a woman and her daughter! - sean kelleher - head of customs up here - tried to say on radio today that they were met with obstruction, potential violence etc - rubbish - he also said he only had 5 officers there - i asked the question on the radio if he was seriously trying to say that he had 7 spare customs officers within 5 mins of greencastle who could assist (if you know the area - it's about half an hour from buncrana). He also stated at the time that if everyone co-operated that no criminal charged would be brought and then on national tv said if she paid her fine and VRT she could have the vehicle back - another lie - ms davern tried to pay it this morning and was refused - they are now talking about bringing criminal charges against her - I can't mention what also happened at the scene, as the gardai are looking into a charge against a customs officer. This may affect legal proceedings.

This woman is being victimised, harassed, and all she was doing on the day in question was her civic duty - attending court in buncrana on behalf of gardai - as a witness to a crime. We aren't all law breakers up here - but rather than sit back and take this, the time has come to speak out against an unfair tax. Pay your VRT if you want to - I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but even if you have, you don't have to like it

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

however the enforcement tactics used are illegal

You have 24hours to register your car or they can legally take it off you. It's not fair, but it's not illegal to enforce that. What is illegal is obstruction of justice - like waiting 6 weeks and then sitting in your car for 6 hours because you were caught.

ardmacha

They tried to get customs to accept credit card details over the phone - they refused - only wanted cash.

If this is true, then it is unreasonable.

would the bankers not be a good option?

OK, perhaps you would like to explain in more detail exactly how you are going to get tax from "the bankers" equal to amount of VRT.

mizzieme

ardmacha wrote: »

If this is true, then it is unreasonable.



OK, perhaps you would like to explain in more detail exactly how you are going to get tax from "the bankers" equal to amount of VRT.

Well in all my working life I only received bonus payments for work done well or targets achieved, can we really be expected to make crazy payments to banks and not take bankers to account for huge bonuses they just did not earn. take a look at the amount of money this country has had to pay the banks if a portion of that was off set against the charges that everybody has to make on buying a car and a realistic amount charged like that is now charged on cars registered after the 1st of July 2008 it would be fair and honest. A car below July 1st 2008 in this country has no resale value and it was well known owner of car dealership that has stated this more than once get rid of the engine size tax and go by emission and if you get a big petrol drinker you pay the price if you buy a reasonable family car then its going to be reasonable but even though this may make sense the powers that be wont help the man on the street even though it was us who put them there [boy will we pay for that at the pearly gates]

Macca6

ryanstewart wrote: »

.all she was doing on the day in question was her civic duty - attending court in buncrana on behalf of gardai - as a witness to a crime.

Ah Ryan, come on now there's a few holes in that story

• She was committing a crime herself on the day in question - driving her UK registered jeep - as you say yourself - VRT is a legal tax -she broke the law - she wasn't randomly targeted for no reason!!!

• If she was sitting in the car park for 6 hours where was this person coming from that they hadn't time to get down?

• The number of customs officers originally was said to be 16, now you are saying there was 12! Frankly when (as you say) 70 people turned up the day before it makes sense that they would have extra staff on standby!

• It's reported that a truck was parked in the drive to block the removal of the jeep and Mrs Davern and another woman also lay down on the drive - that seems like obstruction to me!

I wonder how much of what you say is actually credible!

But you seem to be missing the real point here in that non payment of VRT is tax evasion! Now that you've learned your mistake and now realise that VRT is in fact a legal tax this renders your facebook campain redundant. So you all should just pay your VRT and customs won't have to waste any futher of my taxpayers money tackling the problem you are creating!

If you continue to break the law you have to be prepared for the consequences! I don't pay my VRT because I 'want' to - I pay it because I 'have' to! I don't get stopped by customs because I am not breaking the law!

laura.

I think this is disgusting. why are you all attacking Ryan for... there is 9665 other people on the group, surely he can't be blamed for other peoples opinions. Sure he has said himself that he does not condone any type of violence on these people so why???

Also, why are all of you actually going on the page, picking out the script that makes Ryan look as if he is contradicting himself and posting it on here??

I personally think he is doing fab work for Donegal (more than which any councillor has done for a long time), I am unfortunatly one of the law abiding citizens up here (who has 3 times paid VRT for cars all amounting to get me a damn good one), so it is not all of a sudden that we are making a stand. I for one am sick of paying road tax every year and then, for MY ROAD TAX to go and build high-ways and by-ways in dublin cork or wherever and yet the second we get out of a pothole up here you have to dodge the next one....How is that fair. I think if Donegal roads were in about the Dail, there would have been changes long ago....

bmw320d

Macca6 wrote: »

Question to ryanstewart:

Why is your Facebook page entitled 'VRT -IT'S ILLEGAL' when you yourself have posted the following:

" I'm afraid they are right about the fact that VRT is technically a "legal" tax - it's a national tax which was initially an excise duty, but was changed to a national tax in 1993 to evade the reach of the EU. The EU don't like it but, aren't getting involved - there may be other technicalities that they can be beaten on though - i haven't looked into this one. Legal or not though VRT is wrong and has to go."

I'm confused :-p

Are you going to change the page to "VRT - IT'S WRONG"???

I'm all for the abolision of VRT but to me this page seems to be purely about trying to justify you and other members breaking the law by driving your uk registered vehicles! I'm astounded it hasn't been pulled yet by facebook!

Question to mac6 why dont you stick your head up your ass and suck on your own colon you big prick

smash

laura. wrote: »

I personally think he is doing fab work for Donegal (more than which any councillor has done for a long time)

Ok here we go... he's doing noting for Donegal except pointing out how a lot of the population are either on the dole or don't pay VRT.

laura. wrote: »

I for one am sick of paying road tax every year and then, for MY ROAD TAX to go and build high-ways and by-ways in dublin cork or wherever and yet the second we get out of a pothole up here you have to dodge the next one....How is that fair. I think if Donegal roads were in about the Dail, there would have been changes long ago....

Road tax doesn't exist... it's motor tax, it has nothing to do with VRT and the takings don't go towards making the roads better! you'd be better off talking to your local council.

Gary ITR

bmw320d wrote: »

Question to mac6 why dont you stick your head up your ass and suck on your own colon you big prick

Banned


Right if this topic can't be discussed in a reasonable manner this thread will be locked.

laura.

steve06 wrote: »

Ok here we go... he's doing noting for Donegal except pointing out how a lot of the population are either on the dole or don't pay VRT.

FYI i'm not on the dole actually.. and as you see written above I have paid VRT


Road tax doesn't exist... it's motor tax, it has nothing to do with VRT and the takings don't go towards making the roads better! you'd be better off talking to your local council.

there is absolutly no need to be so contrary it's quite obvious you knew what I was on about and i know MOTOR TAX has nothing to do with VRT thanks for input anyway

furtzy

ryanstewart wrote: »

I've said much earlier in this thread that I've learned a lot about this over the past month and have admitted mistakes have been made, however the enforcement tactics used are illegal - the events surrounding the standoff and subsequent seizure of the vehicle owned by the lady in greencastle are clear evidence of this. They cautioned Ms Davern in front of around 70 people in the carpark, told her they were releasing the vehicle to hear on condition that she accepts that she can expect to appear in a court by notification of the revenue commissioners. She had, by the way, offered to pay the fine on the spot, but had no money on her. She had phoned a friend who offered to pay it, but couldn't get down in time. They tried to get customs to accept credit card details over the phone - they refused - only wanted cash.

I was present when they seized her vehicle the next day - they waited until the tv cameras left, as utv and bbc wanted interviews about what happened - as soon as they left about 16 customs officers landed in - on a woman and her daughter! - sean kelleher - head of customs up here - tried to say on radio today that they were met with obstruction, potential violence etc - rubbish - he also said he only had 5 officers there - i asked the question on the radio if he was seriously trying to say that he had 7 spare customs officers within 5 mins of greencastle who could assist (if you know the area - it's about half an hour from buncrana). He also stated at the time that if everyone co-operated that no criminal charged would be brought and then on national tv said if she paid her fine and VRT she could have the vehicle back - another lie - ms davern tried to pay it this morning and was refused - they are now talking about bringing criminal charges against her - I can't mention what also happened at the scene, as the gardai are looking into a charge against a customs officer. This may affect legal proceedings.

This woman is being victimised, harassed, and all she was doing on the day in question was her civic duty - attending court in buncrana on behalf of gardai - as a witness to a crime. We aren't all law breakers up here - but rather than sit back and take this, the time has come to speak out against an unfair tax. Pay your VRT if you want to - I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but even if you have, you don't have to like it

Look like it or not VRT is, as you've finally found out, a legal tax. The woman in question was breaking the law and the customs and gardai were within their rights to seize the vehicle. By all means continue your campaign but please state the facts on your facebook page and quit pandering to the bar seat lawyers who post on it.

Acouple of facts to post on your page maybe

VRT is a legal tax

Customs officials have the right to stop and seize non compliant vehicles under the finance Act

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/act/pub/0008/index.html

amendments re data to be provided from Irish Insurance companies listed here under 2010 Finance Act

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Publications/Finance%20Bill%202010/Bill2010.pdf

Customs officials have a statutory right of Entry i.e they can enter your property, not the private dwelling, but all driveways, garages, yards etc and seize and remove non compliant vehicles

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/foi/s16/customs/enforcement/

Chapter 3 lists their powers in relation to various offences including VRT evasion

Maybe if you change the title to VRT an Unfair tax and state the facts you might get a bit more respect on here and perhaps a more constructive following

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

This woman is being victimised, harassed, and all she was doing on the day in question was her civic duty - attending court in buncrana on behalf of gardai - as a witness to a crime. We aren't all law breakers up here - but rather than sit back and take this, the time has come to speak out against an unfair tax. Pay your VRT if you want to - I'm not saying that you shouldn't, but even if you have, you don't have to like it

She's being made an example of because she is wasting everyone's time and money, breaking the law and crying to the media for attention, not being victimised and harassed.

-mizzieme wrote:

if they abolished VRT everybody across the country would get a car for a fair price does that not appeal to everybody

If they abolished VRT it'd be made up in income tax as it's the easiest one to bring in. Everyone would suffer to the benefit of a few thousand motorists paying slightly less tax for a totally discretionary item. How is that fairer than VRT?

laura. wrote:

I think this is disgusting. why are you all attacking Ryan for... there is 9665 other people on the group, surely he can't be blamed for other peoples opinions. Sure he has said himself that he does not condone any type of violence on these people so why???

Because he is the guy who has setup this ridiculous site, giving a lot of those angry uniformed fools a place to voice their little hate campaign. Also because badly setup sites like that help spread mis-information and create & exaggerate problems that didn't exist beforehand

JHMEG

laura. wrote: »

I think this is disgusting. why are you all attacking Ryan for... there is 9665 other people on the group,

Possibly 9665 people with UK-reg cars desperately trying to avoid getting caught for VRT?

ryanstewart

I think some of you should read some of the previous posts on this - I've responded to a lot of this stuff already. I've said before that it's the method of enforcement that's illegal - whoever quoted the Finance Act 2010 fhould have a closer look re surveillance powers being restricted to offences carrying a minimum term of 5 years in prison.

Also the number of people on a facebook page is not a respresentative number when it comes to support for this campaign - there are thousands more in the general public who are not on facebook who support this.

Thirdly, the incidents relating to Ms Davern occurred over two days - it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?

To say it's to benefit a "few thousand" motorists shows just how out of touch with this issue some people are - VRT affects EVERYONE - and there are over 100000 NI reg vehicles on Irish roads, and they are not all parked up in Donegal.

Sean Kelleher is trying to say that it is a particular problem in Donegal with a high level of non-compliance - Rubbish. After Dublin and Cork, Donegal has paid the most amount of VRT in the country - this would suggest a high level of compliance, would it not?

The only reason it's happening in Donegal, is because what happens in Donegal - stays in Donegal. Because to be honest, the rest of the country doesn't give a toss about Donegal.

And by the way Cookie monster, try looking at the proposal that was posted earlier on fairly redistributing the tax collected from VRT, so that it's not such an issue, and will actually benefit the motor industry - nobody wants more income tax - it's a motor related issue, so the replacement of that revenue should come from this source.

Do some people on here also not believe that non-compliance/inability to pay/afford vehicles is a direct result of a recession? Unemployment, average wages, etc all have a direct proportional on payment of VRT. I appreciate the fact that the country needs money, but so do the people who live in it - if anything there should at least be a period of non-enforcement of it to let people get on with things until we can see some sort of recovery, and take that opportunity to sort out this mess.

It also didn't take that long to find this stuff out and i have been pointing the facts to people on the page and people who have contacted me, and the reason I've learned so much about this is from criticism of what we are trying to do, so I accept that some may not be happy with what we are trying to achieve by abolishing VRT, although I can't understand why. The motor industry itself is crying out for this to go, and has been for years. I also accept that some are just happy to try and pick holes in statements, which to be honest are brief snippets of what has actually happened - would you really sit down and read full essays on one particular incident? Some are trying to pick small holes and being extremely pedantic rather than sitting back and looking at the full picture, fo rthe sake of petty argument.

smash

laura. wrote: »

there is absolutly no need to be so contrary it's quite obvious you knew what I was on about and i know MOTOR TAX has nothing to do with VRT thanks for input anyway

Come on though Laura, the motor tax rip off argument is nothing to do with this argument and I think you know that.

The bottom line is that people can complain all they want about VRT (I hate it to) but a facebook group will do nothing. There's been plenty of petitions against it, alternatives suggested by consultants and numerous motoring lobbies that have tried to take court action and all have had the same result. People can also talk about how many politicians are in agreement with you but the bottom line is that they're not in power and if they were, VRT would not be abolished because they'd need to make the shortfall somewhere else, and realistically nobody wants to pay more income tax!

ryanstewart wrote: »

it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?

Actually they arrived on the first day and she didn't comply, therefore more resources were needed.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Donegal has paid the most amount of VRT in the country - this would suggest a high level of compliance, would it not?

Without stats to state whether the cars were registered in Donegal as DL reg cars, this would suggest that it's probably the closest office to the border so people will pay the VRT on the way home. You should know that you don't have to go to your local VRT office to register your new car.

furtzy

ryanstewart wrote: »

I whoever quoted the Finance Act 2010 fhould have a closer look re surveillance powers being restricted to offences carrying a minimum term of 5 years in prison.
.

Eh are you suggesting they tapped her phone etc? Do you think looking at her reg and then looking at her licence and proof of residence falls under the category of surveilance

ryanstewart wrote: »

Thirdly, the incidents relating to Ms Davern occurred over two days - it was on the second day, when Ms Davern and her daughter were alone at home that the snatch squad landed - I had stated that there were up to 16 customs officers and 8 gardai who arrived - Sean Kelleher from customs went on the radio to say the figure was grossly overstated - there were only 12! Stop nit-picking - 12 customs men backed up by Gardai to remove a vehicle from a woman still in shock the day before?.

Snatch squad? High emotive language there. You make it sound like some sort of CIA rendition operation. A woman still in shock. She could hardly be in shock at what happened since she was fully aware she was driving an illegal vehicle and the implications that would arise if she was stopped


How do want it scrapped? What are you alternatives? Post up your roadmap for the removal of VRT and we'll discuss the implications

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

Do some people on here also not believe that non-compliance/inability to pay/afford vehicles is a direct result of a recession? Unemployment, average wages, etc all have a direct proportional on payment of VRT. I appreciate the fact that the country needs money, but so do the people who live in it - if anything there should at least be a period of non-enforcement of it to let people get on with things until we can see some sort of recovery, and take that opportunity to sort out this mess.

If those people need money so badly how can still afford to buy a new car and bring them into the state in the first place.

VRT has come down a lot due to the recession too don't forget. All manufacturers have dropped their selling prices by considerable margins over the last 2 years, thus reducing VRT.

And sort out what mess, there is no mess at the moment, only chancers who think they can get away with it? If they had a period of non-enforcement can you not see the mess that would lead to.

ryanstewart

steve06 wrote: »

Come on though Laura, the motor tax rip off argument is nothing to do with this argument and I think you know that.

The bottom line is that people can complain all they want about VRT (I hate it to) but a facebook group will do nothing. There's been plenty of petitions against it, alternatives suggested by consultants and numerous motoring lobbies that have tried to take court action and all have had the same result. People can also talk about how many politicians are in agreement with you but the bottom line is that they're not in power and if they were, VRT would not be abolished because they'd need to make the shortfall somewhere else, and realistically nobody wants to pay more income tax!


Actually they arrived on the first day and she didn't comply, therefore more resources were needed.


Without stats to state whether the cars were registered in Donegal as DL reg cars, this would suggest that it's probably the closest office to the border so people will pay the VRT on the way home. You should know that you don't have to go to your local VRT office to register your new car.

If that's the case, why are the figures much lower for Louth, Monaghan, Cavan Leitrim, etc? Surely this would be representative of that? Most people will also get a number plate from their own county - if it's reg'd in Donegal, it gets DL plates.

In relation to the other incident, I was there on both occasions - 4 officers the first day in Lidl, I'll accept Sean Kelleher's statement of 12 officers on day 2. I saw what happened.

Snatch squad is exactly what it was - they crept up her driveway within minutes of the TV crews leaving - they had obviously been watching the house waiting on them to go - fortunately UTV got back to film the events - it probably does sound far fetched to some people, but this is actually happening up here - and don't be so petty about being in shock!

Proposal follows...

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.

3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to residential parking schemes.

4) End of any Scrappage Scheme on new car sales, replaced with a rebate for used car sales to used car dealers on models first registered after 1st January 2008.

5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an incentive for buying a newer model.

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel


Rationale:


1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement of enforcement by Customs & Excise.
2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland, thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2
3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas..
4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable. The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.
5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.
6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage, rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year, followed by an incremental annual rise/reduction regarding fuel tax/road tax values.

ryanstewart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If those people need money so badly how can still afford to buy a new car and bring them into the state in the first place.

VRT has come down a lot due to the recession too don't forget. All manufacturers have dropped their selling prices by considerable margins over the last 2 years, thus reducing VRT.

And sort out what mess, there is no mess at the moment, only chancers who think they can get away with it? If they had a period of non-enforcement can you not see the mess that would lead to.

I'm afraid you're wrong there Cookie monster - the prices on the forecourts have fallen, however the OMSP on the revenue's calculator have not reflected this - these remain pre-recession. And as far as a new car, it's an 02 - eigth years old. When the laws were changed re provisional driving licences, was there a mess when they gave people time to sort themselves out - no!

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

If that's the case, why are the figures much lower for Louth, Monaghan, Cavan Leitrim, etc? Surely this would be representative of that? Most people will also get a number plate from their own county - if it's reg'd in Donegal, it gets DL plates.

Now it doesn't Ryan, it gets registered to the address of the owner. I live in Wicklow, I've registered 2 cars to my address from the Dublin VRO and 1 car to someone in Limerick, again from the Dublin VRO. Seriously man you need to read up on this stuff.

ryanstewart wrote: »

Snatch squad is exactly what it was - they crept up her driveway within minutes of the TV crews leaving - they had obviously been watching the house waiting on them to go - fortunately UTV got back to film the events - it probably does sound far fetched to some people, but this is actually happening up here - and don't be so petty about being in shock!

It happens all over the country on a daily basis!

Cookie_Monster

ryanstewart wrote: »

. And as far as a new car, it's an 02 - eigth years old. When the laws were changed re provisional driving licences, was there a mess when they gave people time to sort themselves out - no!

Its still a new (2nd hand) car to her!!! (or anyone else in that position)

smash

ryanstewart wrote: »

1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement of enforcement by Customs & Excise.

This would reduce the tax take from the rest of the country.... which is a lot bigger than Donegal.

ryanstewart wrote: »

2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland, thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2

It would also see a lot of people in negative equity with car loans, and a lot of used car dealers closing down.

ryanstewart wrote: »

3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas.

So you're suggesting replacing a VRT fee which is once off, and you can decide how much you want to by based on what vehicle you choose, with a fee that will hit you every day...

ryanstewart wrote: »

4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable. The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.

Who do you suggest gives them a rebate? and if you say the government - tell me where they'll get the money?

ryanstewart wrote: »

5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.

The CC based tax was abolished 2 years ago for new cars!

ryanstewart wrote: »

6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage, rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year, followed by an incremental annual rise/reduction regarding fuel tax/road tax values.

So this usage tax is on top of the CC based tax you want to bring back?

So really what you're saying is we should get rid of the once off VRT payment, devalue every used and new car in Ireland, give motor dealers a rebate(paid for by the tax payer) yet leave existing car owners with car loans in debt, bring back CC based motor tax, add a usage tax and then add a congestion tax. Well done man, I think you've just made Ireland completely bankrupt!

furtzy

On your points

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but not paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

I have a 2010 reg bought new in Irish republic that I paid a hefty amount of VRT on (included in purchase price). You are suggesting rewarding those who evaded tax whilst we who legimately bought cars get nothing.....cop on


2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.


Once again I'll take the example of my car. Abolishing VRT automatically devalues my car and everyone elses. People who bought on finance or loans etc now owe way more that the car is now worth....very fair on them!

3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to residential parking schemes.

This would never amount to the value of VRT in revenue

5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an incentive for buying a newer model.

This is already the case and there are no plans to change it

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel

People in border areas (myself included) would simply buy fuel in NI