Lidl.... bargains ? ahem.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pageant I will support anyone who can justify their prices.

Lidl the subject of your post can justify those prices. Will you now support them ?

borderlinemeath

Take a walk down any main street in any town in Ireland or any shopping centre for that matter and tell me that retailers are in a comfort zone. :mad:

Half the shops are vacant due to the recession. The family run shop next door to me closed its two branches and went into liquidation because it could not compete with both the north and internet shopping.
All the family members involved took out personal loans last year to try and keep the business afloat and keep the staff in their jobs but to no avail and have now lost their livelyhood and are in huge personal debt.
They did everything in their power not to go under but just couldn't compete.

Thats just a small example. What about Hughes & Hughes? Or Sasha? Or Adams childrens clothes? All gone and hundreds of jobs lost and you still think retailers are in a comfort zone.

Just think about what you are saying before making a sweeping statement like that again.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Lidl the subject of your post can justify those prices. Will you now support them ?

Really ? I'm none the wiser tbh. Do you know exactly what their profit margin is on these items ? what their profit is for Ireland compared to say, their French profit ?
As a global outfit, shouldn't they be able to balance their profits overall ? As in, like borderline was saying, possibly consumer confidence being higher in France, more sales over there, balancing out more expense over here ?
Do some global companies work that way ?
Save on expenses somewhere in the world, to offer better prices elsewhere ?
Like, use manpower in one country to save, and continue to sell for competitive prices in another ?

etchyed

Bugnug wrote: »

Why dont you head of home then it would make your life so much easier. See ya:)

Wow, just 8 posts in and this happened. I'm so proud.:rolleyes:

Why does everyone here assume the OP isn't fully aware of the reasons why things are more expensive in Ireland? Obviously he/she is and chooses to shop online because of it. The more people shop online the more costs will have to come down in Ireland in order to compete. That's common sense and the responses to this thread have been quite bizarre.

And Bluetonic, the Tequila was tacked on to the end of the OP's post after several other valid points.

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Btw, I know, taxes and all, but if I'm going to be bitter about it I might as well go the whole hog

Clearly Mountainsandh was fully aware of the facetiousness of this point yet you chose to jump all over it like he/she was an idiot.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Really ? I'm none the wiser tbh. Do you know exactly what their profit margin is on these items ? what their profit is for Ireland compared to say, their French profit ?

None the wiser ??? Are you for real. Read the thread. You started off giving out about prices in Lidl here versus France. You zoned in on alcohol prices. Many posters here have explained to you why the prices here are higher. It's a fact that excise duties are treble here what they are in France. It's a fact that Vat rates are higher. It's a fact that the minimum wage and average wage rates here are higher. It is also a fact that property prices here have been higher than in France (bear in mind that retailers are tied in to leases from well before things went pear shaped) Following on from that every single service provider to Lidl here - be it security, cleaning, maintenance contractors etc are working from the same higher base cost of doing business which means they have to charge more than the equivilent service provider elsewhere.

These are all verifiable without needing to know the specifics of exactly what margin / profit Lidl make here. How can you be none the wiser ??

Mountainsandh wrote: »

As a global outfit, shouldn't they be able to balance their profits overall ? As in, like borderline was saying, possibly consumer confidence being higher in France, more sales over there, balancing out more expense over here ?
Do some global companies work that way ?
Save on expenses somewhere in the world, to offer better prices elsewhere ?
Like, use manpower in one country to save, and continue to sell for competitive prices in another ?

Right so effectively you are saying they should make less profit here or even loss lead and lose money here which can be offset against profits elsewhere ?

Interesting point because that is indeed what a lot of the multiple retailers are doing - and by doing this give you the impression that all the other independent and homegrown retailers are ripping you off with higher prices compared to those companies big enough to offset prices here.

All you are interested in is the bottom line price - which as I said earlier is your right as a consumer but the more smaller shops / chains are wiped out by this practice the worse it will get in the long term when the lack of competition will drive prices up to levels beyond what they would have been at without the loss leading.

Every shopping centre and high street has seen multiple units close and remain boarded up over the past couple of years. If retailers were making the kind of profits you seem to think they are they would not have closed or would have been replaced straight away.

Your viewpoint to me is very short sighted.

Pacing Mule

etchyed wrote: »

The more people shop online the more costs will have to come down in Ireland in order to compete. That's common sense and the responses to this thread have been quite bizarre.

The vast majority of retailers have cut costs and prices to the bone and still are in trouble. Those who haven't have enough money behind them not to need to and realistically only applies to huge multiples.

The easiest and quickest cost to cut is labour - so along with the businesses closing down there are people on the dole because their job was lost trying to cut staffing costs to cut prices.

Excellent stuff for the short sighted who see prices coming down but what happens is that the government has to cut services too and taxes need to be raised to pay for those who have lost their jobs. That's been borne out in pension levies and income levies of recent times. Look at the bigger picture and you will start to realise that a stampede of "cost cutting" is actually going to leave every one of us with less money in our pockets.

I'm not saying that prices didn't need to come down, there were excessive margins and profits being made by some businesses but at this point it has gone too far.

kaymin

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

These are all verifiable without needing to know the specifics of exactly what margin / profit Lidl make here. How can you be none the wiser ??

Yes, they're all verifiable but you still need to know the margin - how else can you assess whether we're being ripped off. You have just got to look at how high the margins are that Tesco is estimated to achieve here compared to elsewhere to see that Irish people are still being ripped off. And Tesco prices are among the lowest.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/tescos-8364260m-profit-from-irish-sales-2145228.html

I also appreciate Tesco is also ripping off their suppliers.

kaymin

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The vast majority of retailers have cut costs and prices to the bone and still are in trouble. Those who haven't have enough money behind them not to need to and realistically only applies to huge multiples.

The easiest and quickest cost to cut is labour - so along with the businesses closing down there are people on the dole because their job was lost trying to cut staffing costs to cut prices.

Excellent stuff for the short sighted who see prices coming down but what happens is that the government has to cut services too and taxes need to be raised to pay for those who have lost their jobs. That's been borne out in pension levies and income levies of recent times. Look at the bigger picture and you will start to realise that a stampede of "cost cutting" is actually going to leave every one of us with less money in our pockets.

I'm not saying that prices didn't need to come down, there were excessive margins and profits being made by some businesses but at this point it has gone too far.

If the job can be done with fewer people then that's what must happen in order to become more competitive at a local and international level. To suggest we should pay high wages or employ more people just so people have more money to spend is a recipe for inflation if there's no productivity improvements to back it up. It will make Ireland uncompetitive and will reduce employment in Irish companies that export (because Irish produce is too costly to make). It is your argument that is short-sighted in my view.

etchyed

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

You zoned in on alcohol prices.

No, he didn't. Please read my post

Pageant Messiah wrote:

I'm not saying that prices didn't need to come down, there were excessive margins and profits being made by some businesses but at this point it has gone too far.

Not far enough for the OP and for some products not far enough for me. Those who have the time (and time is less valuable for the unemployed/low paid) will shop around for the best deal, be it online or in bricks and mortar stores. I simply can't afford some Irish prices. If I can't afford to buy things in the country where I'm paid that's not exactly sustainable either.

Putting morals aside, people will go where they can get the best deal. That's the reality of it. As far as I'm concerned, the OP was fully aware of the reasons for Lidl in Ireland being more expensive before everyone here "enlightened" him. You should be allowed to compare prices without a load of people jumping down your throat.

Pacing Mule

etchyed wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned, the OP was fully aware of the reasons for Lidl in Ireland being more expensive before everyone here "enlightened" him. You should be allowed to compare prices without a load of people jumping down your throat.

Compare prices = By all means yes
Post it in a rip off forum and label it a rip off when it clearly isn't = NO

borderlinemeath

kaymin wrote: »

If the job can be done with fewer people then that's what must happen in order to become more competitive at a local and international level. To suggest we should pay high wages or employ more people just so people have more money to spend is a recipe for inflation if there's no productivity improvements to back it up. It will make Ireland uncompetitive and will reduce employment in Irish companies that export (because Irish produce is too costly to make). It is your argument that is short-sighted in my view.

Why don't you try working in retail and see what a bed of roses it is?

Staffing has been cut at every level from shop floor to distribution and also cleaning and services.

So I come in an hour or two early (unpaid) so I get to clean the shop before I take in the huge delivery (because the frequency has decreased due to costs) and then I get to deal with customers who are complaining that there are no staff available to help them.
Then there are the ones like the OP who feel that they are being ripped off at every turn and we are making a huge profit out of him and complain and haggle to try and get a reduced price.
It's demoralising and draining and is very short sighted of You to think that increased productivity is achieved by cutting staffing.

And there are no high wages in retail. We're not the banks you know.:rolleyes:

Pacing Mule

kaymin wrote: »

If the job can be done with fewer people then that's what must happen in order to become more competitive at a local and international level. To suggest we should pay high wages or employ more people just so people have more money to spend is a recipe for inflation if there's no productivity improvements to back it up. It will make Ireland uncompetitive and will reduce employment in Irish companies that export (because Irish produce is too costly to make). It is your argument that is short-sighted in my view.

I would not suggest at all that we should pay higher wages and employ more people that aren't needed as being an ideal model. I have consistently said for years that the wage rates in Ireland were contributing to a vicious circle of inflation. It should have been tackled long ago but that's an argument for a different day / thread.

At this time smaller retailers have been forced to let go staff not as an efficiency excercise but to let go staff and cut service levels. Be that cleaning or staff on tills, staff to replenish stock during the day, management in most retailers being cut in numbers by 25% - the kind of cuts being made now are short term stop gaps that can't be maintained in the long run. In the mean time though the state is paying dole money, health board supplements, rent allowances etc.

The staff themselves who are left are over worked, have had wage cuts forced onto them in some cases and who in all cases have had taxation increases can't afford to repay loans and mortgages putting the banks uder pressure and requiring billions more in government intervention that we can't afford either.

It really has gone too far and is becoming a burden to not just the state but to each individual in the country who is paying for it by taxation increases. I would prefer the prices to have dropped a reasonable amount, employment to be maintained and taxes not rising becuase we would all have been far better off.

Pacing Mule

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Why don't you try working in retail and see what a bed of roses it is?

Staffing has been cut at every level from shop floor to distribution and also cleaning and services.

So I come in an hour or two early (unpaid) so I get to clean the shop before I take in the huge delivery (because the frequency has decreased due to costs) and then I get to deal with customers who are complaining that there are no staff available to help them.
Then there are the ones like the OP who feel that they are being ripped off at every turn and we are making a huge profit out of him and complain and haggle to try and get a reduced price.
It's demoralising and draining and is very short sighted of You to think that increased productivity is achieved by cutting staffing.

And there are no high wages in retail. We're not the banks you know.:rolleyes:

The same story is mirrored across the retail sector.

looksee

You know, Mountainsandh, if you hadn't mentioned you were French most of those reply posts would have been agreeing with you. You are a blow-in, you will always be a blow-in and on that basis you mustn't criticise

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

These are all verifiable without needing to know the specifics of exactly what margin / profit Lidl make here. How can you be none the wiser ??
QUOTE]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I am none the wiser simply because I do not know what proportion of the extra 20 euros I should pay for an item goes to covering higher costs.

If I buy something in Lidl here, for an extra 20 euros (compared to the French price), can you tell me ? How much goes towards covering higher costs ?
Remember we're not talking about just one item. Other items are 1 euro dearer, 5 euros, etc...
So, I'm paying 20 euros more than a French person would.
How much of the 20 euros goes towards paying the cleaner's wages exactly ? And the rent ? and the taxes ? Do you know ?
Out of these 20 euros, would 18 euros have covered the higher cost ?
15 euros ?
10 euros ?
less ?
So no, I'm none the wiser.
There are people in Lidl who adjust prices according to their own agenda, might very well be super honest, hand on heart, just covering costs. Or it might not.
It might just be that they're setting the prices that they think Irish people are willing to pay for an item, thereby covering costs, and making a profit. Does that seem reasonable ?
And so the point of my original post was to show Irish people : hey, look, this is actually a lot dearer than what you are asked to pay. People can make up their own minds. If you think 20 euros extra sounds reasonable because of the higher costs here, good for you.
It may be that the Lidl people are very very honest, just covering their costs.
But I don't know that for sure.

Pacing Mule

looksee wrote: »

You know, Mountainsandh, if you hadn't mentioned you were French most of those reply posts would have been agreeing with you. You are a blow-in, you will always be a blow-in and on that basis you mustn't criticise

I would like to say at this point I don't case where the OP is from my response would be the same.

heathersonline

Mountainsandh, Out of interest, would you care to share the French site you referred to in your first post?

borderlinemeath

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I would like to say at this point I don't case where the OP is from my response would be the same.

+1.
The OP may be French but he claims to know little about taxation and costs in his home country.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I am none the wiser simply because I do not know what proportion of the extra 20 euros I should pay for an item goes to covering higher costs.

If I buy something in Lidl here, for an extra 20 euros (compared to the French price), can you tell me ? How much goes towards covering higher costs ?
Remember we're not talking about just one item. Other items are 1 euro dearer, 5 euros, etc...
So, I'm paying 20 euros more than a French person would.
How much of the 20 euros goes towards paying the cleaner's wages exactly ? And the rent ? and the taxes ? Do you know ?
Out of these 20 euros, would 18 euros have covered the higher cost ?
15 euros ?
10 euros ?
less ?
So no, I'm none the wiser.
There are people in Lidl who adjust prices according to their own agenda, might very well be super honest, hand on heart, just covering costs. Or it might not.
It might just be that they're setting the prices that they think Irish people are willing to pay for an item, thereby covering costs, and making a profit. Does that seem reasonable ?
And so the point of my original post was to show Irish people : hey, look, this is actually a lot dearer than what you are asked to pay. People can make up their own minds. If you think 20 euros extra sounds reasonable because of the higher costs here, good for you.
It may be that the Lidl people are very very honest, just covering their costs.
But I don't know that for sure.

None the wiser is defined as knowing no more than before. You have posted a difference of €20 on a product sold for €149 here. I can't give you an exact percentage margin that Lidl male here in Ireland versus France on that item. I don't own or manage Lidl and am unable to. But what I can do is show a large range of factors that would drive that price up. If you are still none the wiser then you are ignoring this information. I would say you should have quite a bit more knowledge than you had before posting the thread.

Mountainsandh

looksee wrote: »

You know, Mountainsandh, if you hadn't mentioned you were French most of those reply posts would have been agreeing with you. You are a blow-in, you will always be a blow-in and on that basis you mustn't criticise

Thanks Looksee, I only got 2 "go home", not doing too badly .

Interesting that retailers are the ones haunting the "rip off Ireland" thread, isn't it ?

Mountainsandh

heathersonline wrote: »

Mountainsandh, Out of interest, would you care to share the French site you referred to in your first post?

Hi Heathersonline, the site is Laredoute.fr. You might have to register and pretend you're going to buy to be able to see the shipping costs.
I've gone for this coffee-maker, looks great, and that's exactly what I wanted. Had other Philips before they work great.
http://www.laredoute.fr/vente-cafetiere-filtre-hd7562-40.aspx?productid=324184054&documentid=429210&categoryid=63472552&pos=5_n_n&numberpage=1

Also got some feather pillows (the French ones, long round one, and big square ones), they're great and well priced.

kaymin

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It's demoralising and draining and is very short sighted of You to think that increased productivity is achieved by cutting staffing.

My post did start with 'If the job can be done with fewer people'. Margins are higher in Tesco in Ireland than elsewhere and there's no reason to think that is not also the case with Lidl / Aldi especially considering the obvious price differences (and accepting the reasons peculiar to Ireland that account for some of that difference).

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

None the wiser is defined as knowing no more than before. You have posted a difference of €20 on a product sold for €149 here. I can't give you an exact percentage margin that Lidl male here in Ireland versus France on that item. I don't own or manage Lidl and am unable to. But what I can do is show a large range of factors that would drive that price up. If you are still none the wiser then you are ignoring this information. I would say you should have quite a bit more knowledge than you had before posting the thread.

Well in the retail sector I'm sure there is a big difference between what you can cover for 10 or 20 euros, no ?
I was well aware of the higher costs in Ireland before I posted this.
I'm still none the wiser as to what proportion of this 20 euros goes into the retailer's profit, or to cover costs.
Should we all be happy with guesstimating in Ireland ?

Mountainsandh

borderlinemeath wrote: »

+1.
The OP may be French but he claims to know little about taxation and costs in his home country.

I've been living in Ireland 13 years, paying taxes, levies, etc... here for the past 13 years, so no, not well informed as regards France.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Well in the retail sector I'm sure there is a big difference between what you can cover for 10 or 20 euros, no ?
I was well aware of the higher costs in Ireland before I posted this.
I'm still none the wiser as to what proportion of this 20 euros goes into the retailer's profit, or to cover costs.
Should we all be happy with guesstimating in Ireland ?

Of course not but nor should we be happy to allow blanket accusations of ripping people off without foundation.

BTW any portion of that difference that is made up of taxes does not go to the retailers purchasing account. In the case of the Tequila where the price difference is €13.00 or so the difference to the retailer was about €0.50

Also to be fair as well nobody had / has the right to tell you to go home or anything like that and such comments are ignorant to say the least.

borderlinemeath

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Thanks Looksee, I only got 2 "go home", not doing too badly .

Interesting that retailers are the ones haunting the "rip off Ireland" thread, isn't it ?

Well we do need to educate the ignorant.:D
I always browse the consumer section, sometimes to help answer questions on consumer rights and other times to make sure that other retailers are getting a fair hearing as there's always a lot of bad press but not all of it justified.
I still think the thread title is misleading and the OP hasn't answered most of my questions put to him but has made sweeping generalisations about retailing in Ireland.

borderlinemeath

kaymin wrote: »

My post did start with 'If the job can be done with fewer people'. Margins are higher in Tesco in Ireland than elsewhere and there's no reason to think that is not also the case with Lidl / Aldi especially considering the obvious price differences (and accepting the reasons peculiar to Ireland that account for some of that difference).

That is specific to Tesco and it was very generalised in the article that it was linked to.
It did not say that Tescos margins were 9% LFL. it said that it was "based roughly on the 9% margin Tesco are thought to enjoy here"

They may have made 9% at one point, but highly unlikely these days. And maybe that 9% profit margin was made on an non LFL basis. Tesco have opened a lot of new stores in the past few years which inflates profit margins but not on a LFL basis.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

None the wiser ??? Are you for real. Read the thread. You started off giving out about prices in Lidl here versus France. You zoned in on alcohol prices. Many posters here have explained to you why the prices here are higher. It's a fact that excise duties are treble here what they are in France. It's a fact that Vat rates are higher. It's a fact that the minimum wage and average wage rates here are higher. It is also a fact that property prices here have been higher than in France (bear in mind that retailers are tied in to leases from well before things went pear shaped) Following on from that every single service provider to Lidl here - be it security, cleaning, maintenance contractors etc are working from the same higher base cost of doing business which means they have to charge more than the equivilent service provider elsewhere.

These are all verifiable without needing to know the specifics of exactly what margin / profit Lidl make here. How can you be none the wiser ??



Right so effectively you are saying they should make less profit here or even loss lead and lose money here which can be offset against profits elsewhere ?

Interesting point because that is indeed what a lot of the multiple retailers are doing - and by doing this give you the impression that all the other independent and homegrown retailers are ripping you off with higher prices compared to those companies big enough to offset prices here.

All you are interested in is the bottom line price - which as I said earlier is your right as a consumer but the more smaller shops / chains are wiped out by this practice the worse it will get in the long term when the lack of competition will drive prices up to levels beyond what they would have been at without the loss leading.

Every shopping centre and high street has seen multiple units close and remain boarded up over the past couple of years. If retailers were making the kind of profits you seem to think they are they would not have closed or would have been replaced straight away.

Your viewpoint to me is very short sighted.

Pageant Messiah, look, my intention is really not to make the people cross but I can't help but think here : "wake up and smell the coffee" (like hubby says:D).
This has been happening in France for years. Giants like Carrefour and Auchan are eating up the whole market but you know what ? Well they haven't really.
There's complaining going on there too, but the fact is, that small retail businesses have survived. Not all of them. Some sank, some swam.
My mum still buys her bread, her flowers, some food items, and other things, in small shops. Why ? She lives right in the middle of a big town, there's Carrefour, and Auchan, and whatnot, minutes from her home, why on earth would she buy from the smaller shops ?
Because somehow these small shops managed to survive, and offer something she wants. Maybe they had to cut staff, cut their wages, move premises or downsize, change tack, switch stock, switch suppliers, come up with new ideas.
Talk to French retailers and I'm sure they'll tell you too that it's not a bed of roses.

If you can't compete because people are buying online, why not downgrade, downsize, and start selling online ?
You might have to lay off staff for now, for your business to survive, possibly evolving in the process from a brick and mortar to something else, or from a classy premises in town to a unit tucked away in an industrial zone. You might have to have a larger input in advertising than you had before.
But how about this for short-sightedness : the people you might lay off today, the premises you have to relinquish, is there a chance you might be able to return to them in 2, 3 years time ?

What you are in effect suggesting here is that customers should, out of the goodness of their hearts, ignore competition and buy exclusively from Irish retailers, regardless of prices, for support.
Well I pay taxes, and have taken pay cuts, and suffered changes in my job because of the downturn. Just like retailers. We all have to adapt.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

Of course not but nor should we be happy to allow blanket accusations of ripping people off without foundation.

BTW any portion of that difference that is made up of taxes does not go to the retailers purchasing account. In the case of the Tequila where the price difference is €13.00 or so the difference to the retailer was about €0.50

Also to be fair as well nobody had / has the right to tell you to go home or anything like that and such comments are ignorant to say the least.

Thanks for that, and yes, I did say I knew, taxes etc... but I if I was going to be bitter about it I'd go the full hog, and not reason on that one, that's what I meant . Same for the cigarettes.

Mountainsandh

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Well we do need to educate the ignorant.:D
I always browse the consumer section, sometimes to help answer questions on consumer rights and other times to make sure that other retailers are getting a fair hearing as there's always a lot of bad press but not all of it justified.
I still think the thread title is misleading and the OP hasn't answered most of my questions put to him but has made sweeping generalisations about retailing in Ireland.

Borderline, I don't understand how you are getting all het up about the title.
It's simple.
In my OP I aimed to share with people who are interested how prices that are presented to Irish consumers as "bargain prices" are in fact higher than prices offered in a nearby European country by this European retailer.
Remember, this is Europe. The open market. Competition. Europe anyone ?

Comparing European prices is fair, this is the point (amongst others) of Europe.