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Lidl.... bargains ? ahem.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~There are upsides and downside to buying on line, you can get some items cheaper no doubt , but you also have the higher risk of scams and inferior products as you cant physically check out the product yourself.
you also have the problem of what to do when there is a problem with the product you bought, who pays the postage what laws protect you if you have bought your ipod in outer mongolia etc.
as has been mentioned earlier cheaper is not always better in the long run, yes its great when a big supermarket opens up and brings down prices. unfortunately the joy can be shortlived.
tesco are our walmart, they move into a town and suddenly you can get all the popular books, cds, white goods and groceries cheaper, this in turn means that your local bookshop,music shop,electrical goods and local shop cant compete and fold.
now even if they dont raise their prices if you want your flyfishing by jr hartley , ray lamontagne cd, or your electrical ear hair remover you that you normally would get in your specialised local shops they wont be stocked in tescos as they only sell the most popular brands.
so you end up getting a reduced service in the long run, this is what has happened all over in the uk.
You're right Shelflife, the internet does have its own risks, I have found though that I very seldom got caught, you have to be selective on where or who you buy from, and what you buy. I complete all my transactions with Paypal therefore have never been out of pocket. The single one instance when I did not receive the product Paypal reimbursed me (all of my 5 euros
).
What you are saying about Tesco is true, however I think if well managed, those small specialized shops might just survive. I have mentioned earlier this brilliant music shop near where I live, where the advice is excellent, and you can get just about any cd you may be looking for, either in the shop, or very efficiently and quickly through ordering it.
I don't think the owners of the shop are rolling in money, but they manage, and have another shop on the side to help. Is it possible that some retailers' expectations are too high and therefore what would be a reliable if not spectacularly profitable enterprise might be aborted because the profit will never be that of a big town cd outlet ?
Just like people became greedy with wages in other sectors, I have a feeling that a number of projects in Ireland right now have been ruled out because the profits were not prestigious enough, maybe expectations of what a business might yield should be lowered in order for these to survive.0 -
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Question is not the choice they make, that is obvious, question is : how do they do it ?
If Ikea manages to pay the cleaner, the workers, the taxes, etc... and sell a cot for 95 euros only in Ireland, how do they do it ? And why wouldn't Lidl do the same ?
There are decisions made here as regards price fixing, one chooses to offer prices that are more expensive than in France, the other opts to offer lower prices in Ireland.
Since I have been told (as if I were an idiot) that wages here are higher, electricity, rental, levies, taxes, etc... which should explain higher prices, I'm just wondering : 2 global outfits, 1 asking for more money, 1 asking for less money. Both paying the same higher costs.
All previous arguments just don't make sense anymore.
Btw, Borderline was asking about levies and taxes in France, just remember one massive tax that is payable in France but not in Ireland (that I know of) : the local tax. All French people have to pay a "local" tax, that is used to cover the costs of road/street infrastructure, rubbish collection, etc... This tax varies depending on the location of course. Some very classy areas are entitled to ask for more money if they can justify that their costs are higher, etc... Mustn' t be easy on retailers who of course often opt for town centres with all the infrastructure costs that entails. Also water has been a paying commodity a number of years now (ever since I was little anyway, so that's a good number of years
). Private owners pay water charges, and so I would say do the retailers. This is a full blown, usage charge, with a meter, just like for electricity. 0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »Question is not the choice they make, that is obvious, question is : how do they do it ?
If Ikea manages to pay the cleaner, the workers, the taxes, etc... and sell a cot for 95 euros only in Ireland, how do they do it ? And why wouldn't Lidl do the same ?
There are decisions made here as regards price fixing, one chooses to offer prices that are more expensive than in France, the other opts to offer lower prices in Ireland.
Since I have been told (as if I were an idiot) that wages here are higher, electricity, rental, levies, taxes, etc... which should explain higher prices, I'm just wondering : 2 global outfits, 1 asking for more money, 1 asking for less money. Both paying the same higher costs.
All previous arguments just don't make sense anymore.
Btw, Borderline was asking about levies and taxes in France, just remember one massive tax that is payable in France but not in Ireland (that I know of) : the local tax. All French people have to pay a "local" tax, that is used to cover the costs of road/street infrastructure, rubbish collection, etc... This tax varies depending on the location of course. Some very classy areas are entitled to ask for more money if they can justify that their costs are higher, etc... Mustn' t be easy on retailers who of course often opt for town centres with all the infrastructure costs that entails. Also water has been a paying commodity a number of years now (ever since I was little anyway, so that's a good number of years). Private owners pay water charges, and so I would say do the retailers. This is a full blown, usage charge, with a meter, just like for electricity.
All previous arguments make perfect sense in a traditional retail business model which is buy a product from a 3rd party supplier and sell it on. The majority of Ikea stock is manufactured by themselves - they are in effect a gigantic factory outlet. Their products are not sold anywhere else and their margins even at the relatively low prices are huge compared to other retailers selling similar products as they do not have a middle man / supplier / distributors margins to work around.
In this case they are making more profit in France than they are here. Perhaps their is a boards.fr with a rip off France thread complaining about it but picking Ikea as an example of why retail in Ireland can't justify the prices as explained in the thread earlier is a cherry picking example that doesn't hold up across the board. 0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »Btw, Borderline was asking about levies and taxes in France, just remember one massive tax that is payable in France but not in Ireland (that I know of) : the local tax. All French people have to pay a "local" tax, that is used to cover the costs of road/street infrastructure, rubbish collection, etc... This tax varies depending on the location of course. Some very classy areas are entitled to ask for more money if they can justify that their costs are higher, etc... Mustn' t be easy on retailers who of course often opt for town centres with all the infrastructure costs that entails. Also water has been a paying commodity a number of years now (ever since I was little anyway, so that's a good number of years). Private owners pay water charges, and so I would say do the retailers. This is a full blown, usage charge, with a meter, just like for electricity.
Just read that properly there and it further explains your original post about Lidl and the cheaper barbecue in France. In Ireland it is the businesses who pay for the "local" tax you refer to in the form of commercial rates. A reasonably large sized retail outlet like a larger Woodies, Tesco Extra site can be up to €1 million euro a year. Water rates are also charged to businesses by local authorities and water consumption is metred etc.
In effect in France the taxation burden is spread more evenly between businesses and the general public. Here the taxation is a bit more subtle in that businesses are forced to pay these rates and pass them on in the form of higher prices.0 -
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Pageant Messiah wrote: »
Perhaps their is a boards.fr with a rip off France thread complaining about it QUOTE]
There probably would be if they were aware of it.
Overall though, I've a feeling the "rip off" notion in France is much less prevalent, as regards retail anyway, it's more a case of feeling ripped off by the government (judging from my Mum and extended family and friends), rather than the retailers.0 -
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Mountainsandh wrote: »
On average rates add about 3% to the retail cost of goods.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but for an item that costs 50 euros, that would be 1.50 euro extra ? well that's much more reasonable, I've no problem paying 1.50 extra for my Lidl items to help them cover that cost. Hell, on an item priced at 50 euros, I could even throw in another 5 euros altogether, so that's 1.50 extra for the rates, and 3.50 for all the other higher costs in Ireland, bearing in mind that the original price obviously would have had standard costs etc... already factored in I imagine.
You see, I'd have no problem paying an extra fiver on an item that is 50 euros, I suppose that would be sort of my mental threshold on what is still reasonable to ask.
Call me skinflint all you want, these figures are still inflated in my opinion.
I will correct your €1.50 calculation though as you have forgotten about the following ....
A) The VAT on that 3% takes it to 3.6% plus
in accepting this difference as being reasonable why not accept these ....
The difference in VAT rates between the two countries adds another 1.5% on as well.
C) Minimum Wage Rates / Employers PRSI are significantly higher here.
D) Rents / Property prices are higher.
E) Cost of transport to here from Europe if appropriate plus significantly higher transport costs within Ireland.
F) Every service provider to the retailer has A to D above built into their costs to the retailer so it's a snowball effect.
It would be closer to 15% than 3% extra built into the prices to cover the above.
Interesting - you think that €5.00 on €50 is reasonable (that's 10% extra here) which would be the bulk of the difference you were complaining about with the BBQ The €129.99 translating to €142.99 0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »There probably would be if they were aware of it.
Overall though, I've a feeling the "rip off" notion in France is much less prevalent, as regards retail anyway, it's more a case of feeling ripped off by the government (judging from my Mum and extended family and friends), rather than the retailers.
Which echoes the point that I made about the taxes here being a lot less transparent. Over in France people can see it's the government taxing them. Over here because every element in the supply chain is taxed higher the retailers take the brunt of the unrest for having higher prices when it's actually the taxation that has done it.0 -
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Pageant Messiah wrote: »I will correct your €1.50 calculation though as you have forgotten about the following ....
A) The VAT on that 3% takes it to 3.6% plus
in accepting this difference as being reasonable why not accept these .... The difference in VAT rates between the two countries adds another 1.5% on as well.
C) Minimum Wage Rates / Employers PRSI are significantly higher here.
D) Rents / Property prices are higher.
E) Cost of transport to here from Europe if appropriate plus significantly higher transport costs within Ireland.
F) Every service provider to the retailer has A to D above built into their costs to the retailer so it's a snowball effect.
It would be closer to 15% than 3% extra built into the prices to cover the above.
Interesting - you think that €5.00 on €50 is reasonable (that's 10% extra here) which would be the bulk of the difference you were complaining about with the BBQ The €129.99 translating to €142.99
that is exactly my point Pageant, so the BBQ being priced at 149.99 here, where are those 7 euros per customer purchasing going ?
As regards increasing the percentages to 15 % well isn't that convenient all of a sudden ?
I'm sure the original price of say, 129.99 euros in France, is calculated to cover costs, wages etc... in the first place and make a profit. Allowing that costs, wages, Vat, are higher here, is it unreasonable to think that 10 % extra per item may cover it ?
Remember that France I'm sure is not a bed of roses to the retailers either, who without doubt, are being highly taxed by the government just as private people are. Considering the amount of "made in China" (and other far away lands) items sold in France, import costs are also relevant to French retailers. A lower minimum wage and lower wages in general while helping run a business, also mean a lesser buying power for potential customers.
So, I'm agreeing to pay 10 % extra, that is a pretty reasonable compromise on the part of a customer who can often get the goods for cheaper elsewhere.
And 91011, what exactly are you saying ? That we should fork out an extra 20 % of our own reduced (or unexistant for some) wages out of charity for retailers who might still be better off than we are ?
I'm very lucky to have a job still.
How about the person who's lost their job a year back, are they supposed to pay their 20 % extra on everything because retailers need to maintain their profit to a certain standard ?
On Ebay I would estimate that 50 % of the shops I buy from are both brick and mortal retail outlets, and online businesses (they usually tell you about their brick and mortar shop on their page) at the same time. If they can do it, why can't the Irish retailers ?
Anything can be shipped, I am about to buy a stove from an online retailer which will be shipped for 99 euros from UK.
If I as a customer, am able to have a stove shipped for 99 euros I would imagine an Irish retailer would get a better deal shipping wise. If I as a customer am able to buy one single stove for a much better price than in Ireland, I would imagine a retailer would get a better deal on a number of them. I would also imagine that it takes less people to run an internet site than to run a shop, and that a storage only facility would cost a lot less to keep than a lit up, dolled up retail premises. All jobs need not be "purchased" from a third party, I'm sure a lot of retailers are computer literate and would be able to set up a website themselves (maybe with a push from a little evening training course for some). Handling and packaging is being done by many already, and again need not cost a fortune.
So less bricks and mortar shops right now, but more online dealers. The transition to selling online may be more difficult for some, but if that is what it takes to save a business, wouldn't you agree it is a definite option ?
Job descriptions are changing right now, all over Ireland, and a lot of people on the dole would be glad to adapt to a new job. I don't understand how so many retailers seem reluctant to evolve into viable businesses when clearly that would save a great number, without putting the onus on the customers to pull them out of this mess.
If indeed a lot are family run businesses, and thus their own bosses, they will have the freedom to revert to a brick and mortar only type of business when things get better.
I am getting tired of a discussion where clearly people who made a fortune when times were good and did not make provisions for harder times are being victimized. I have a good job, and during the boom I did not purchase a 350 000e or more home, I drove the same old banger, did not go on 2 or 3 holidays a year to Tenerife or Salou, and get my hair done every week. Not skinflint, just didn't get carried away with all that.
A lot of these people I should give my 20% extra to, every time I purchase something in Ireland, are still living lifestyles that are more expensive than mine. I know a lot of ladies who still go to the hairdresser's weekly, couples who head off on expensive week-ends away, and eat out several times a week, etc...
For as long as Irish people don't understand that their lifestyle is not the norm, things are certainly not going to improve.
I am not bitter or jealous as I am much happier with my lifestyle than a lot of these people have been even at the height of their spending, but like a lot of other people, I don't think it is up to me to sort the mess these people are in.0
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