Lidl.... bargains ? ahem.

Pacing Mule

I really wish you would lay off the itallics and bold posting - it makes it very hard to read what is already a struggle to get through.

You are entrenched in your belief that across the board you are being ripped off and that retailers are making more profit here than elsewhere and nothing is going to change that. Every point you have made has been countered and explained to you in numerous posts but you choose to ignore what is being said. You think your willingness to pay 10% more should be viewed as a reasonable compromise when the extra cost of doing business here far exceeds it - a lot of businesses dropping prices to 110% of a French price will be selling at a loss.

The world you live in is one where every retailer in Ireland made a fortune in the boom times, and is still trying to make a fortune now and are too lazy or unwilling to adapt to a market change. The reality for the majority of retailers is very different and involves huge personal debt and losses with no chance at all of dropping prices any further yet being met with people like you who are sure they are ripping them off.

We could go round and round in circles all day but it's the same conversation from both sides. I don't think there is any hope you will ever see what is really happening.

borderlinemeath

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

I really wish you would lay off the itallics and bold posting - it makes it very hard to read what is already a struggle to get through.

You are entrenched in your belief that across the board you are being ripped off and that retailers are making more profit here than elsewhere and nothing is going to change that. Every point you have made has been countered and explained to you in numerous posts but you choose to ignore what is being said. You think your willingness to pay 10% more should be viewed as a reasonable compromise when the extra cost of doing business here far exceeds it - a lot of businesses dropping prices to 110% of a French price will be selling at a loss.

The world you live in is one where every retailer in Ireland made a fortune in the boom times, and is still trying to make a fortune now and are too lazy or unwilling to adapt to a market change. The reality for the majority of retailers is very different and involves huge personal debt and losses with no chance at all of dropping prices any further yet being met with people like you who are sure they are ripping them off.

We could go round and round in circles all day but it's the same conversation from both sides. I don't think there is any hope you will ever see what is really happening.

Agreed.
I have been working all week driving to and from work in my 02 car. It needs bodywork, a service and the clutch needs a bit of attention. I can't afford to get any of it done (for the next couple of months anyway)

I received a letter this week from my head office reiterating the current pay cuts and diminished working conditions that are in place for all staff, retail, warehousing, head office and how the are continuing in the current climate.

So you just keep thinking that retail is great and everyone is still turning huge profits.
Good luck to you when there are no local shops left where you live. You are driving the nails into their coffins.

Mountainsandh

"I really wish you would lay off the itallics and bold posting - it makes it very hard to read what is already a struggle to get through."

There. Done. But really tut tut tut... Did the little personal dig make you feel better ?

Anyway you are absolutely right.
We could go round and round for hours, and both think we're absolutely right about our respective positions.
There is no need to be condescendant about it though, I am not ignoring explanations, I am being skeptical about numbers I am not in a position to verify, and therefore having to take somebody's word for it/them.

Businesses in both town I frequent on a regular basis are still running, a few have closed, but at the moment there is no "closing down sale" to be seen in either of them. Shops are stocked, have customers.
That is what I see.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

"I really wish you would lay off the itallics and bold posting - it makes it very hard to read what is already a struggle to get through."

There. Done. But really tut tut tut... Did the little personal dig make you feel better ?

Anyway you are absolutely right.
We could go round and round for hours, and both think we're absolutely right about our respective positions.
There is no need to be condescendant about it though, I am not ignoring explanations, I am being skeptical about numbers I am not in a position to verify, and therefore having to take somebody's word for it/them.

Businesses in both town I frequent on a regular basis are still running, a few have closed, but at the moment there is no "closing down sale" to be seen in either of them. Shops are stocked, have customers.
That is what I see.

I didn't have a personal dig at you - it is a fact that trying to read long posts in bold and italics is a cause of eye strain for most people.

The businesses in both towns you refer to .... what you see is from the perspective of the customer you are. You are not seeing what is going on behind the scenes and that's the point I am trying to make to you. You don't know or understand what is going on in the retail industry and you won't until you a) get involved in it or b) see the few shops that have closed multiply which they will in the coming years.

Mountainsandh

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Agreed.
I have been working all week driving to and from work in my 02 car. It needs bodywork, a service and the clutch needs a bit of attention. I can't afford to get any of it done (for the next couple of months anyway)

I received a letter this week from my head office reiterating the current pay cuts and diminished working conditions that are in place for all staff, retail, warehousing, head office and how the are continuing in the current climate.

So you just keep thinking that retail is great and everyone is still turning huge profits.
Good luck to you when there are no local shops left where you live. You are driving the nails into their coffins.

We're all tired of this discussion so bye bye Borderlinemeath.
I drove to work in my 95 car all week too. The hubby's 00 needs work done, but that will have to wait a bit. And I am going to take more paycuts for a harder job too.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

We're all tired of this discussion so bye bye Borderlinemeath.
I drove to work in my 95 car all week too. The hubby's 00 needs work done, but that will have to wait a bit. And I am going to take more paycuts for a harder job too.

And again you remain dismissive and completely miss the point being made to you. He's not saying he is worse off than you, he's trying to show you that the reality retail world is struggling as much as any other industry and that he is not swanning off for expensive weekends away, eating out at restaurants all the time, weekly hairdresser vists etc that you referred to. You are the one making claims of extravagance and unwillingness to change. He's just saying that this is not the case and he's no different than you.

Assuming of course borderlinemeath is a male - apologies if wrong.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

And again you remain dismissive and completely miss the point being made to you. He's not saying he is worse off than you, he's trying to show you that the reality retail world is struggling as much as any other industry and that he is not swanning off for expensive weekends away, eating out at restaurants all the time, weekly hairdresser vists etc that you referred to. You are the one making claims of extravagance and unwillingness to change. He's just saying that this is not the case and he's no different than you.

Assuming of course borderlinemeath is a male - apologies if wrong.

Pageant Messiah you are missing my point. I mentioned "old banger" and Borderlinemeath answered me pointing out he had an 02 car. An 8 year old car by my standards is not an old car.

That is exactly what I meant by Irish people having to lower their standards. In my book an 02 car is a "nearly new" car. Irish people it seems have been so used to having such a high standard of living the past few years that their vision of low vs high standard is distorted it seems.

I'm not basing this on Borderlinemeath specifically, but on observing my colleagues and friends too.
A lot of them believe they are now "living simple and saving", when they in fact : eat out once or twice a week ; buy a new outfit for a work function ; spend in average 100-150 euros (minimum) on a night out, and go out more than once a week ; get their hair done for a work function (my colleagues are mostly female you will have guessed ), never pluck their own eyebrows (beautician's job), buy a branded buggy for their baby, because you wouldn't be seen dead pushing an unbranded one ... These things to them are not luxuries, they are "normal" expenses.

Borderlinem's reaction to my saying "I'm not buying" was very telling : Skinflint. If you don't do the above things you are : a skinflint. You refuse to buy something 20 % dearer than you can get it : skinflint.
Do you not find this shocking ?
We are in the middle of a recession, and I am talking about saving money, and being called skinflint by a retailer ? it is so representative of the frame of mind people are still in, despite the recession.

So when retailers, amongst others, say that they are experiencing tough times and are cutting their wages as low as they can possibly go, I cannot but think well, if you didn't go out twice a week and spend more than 200 euros on your nights out, you would have enough money to cover this or that bill, or you might just make do with a lower wage.

Irish people are still trying to "keep up with the Jones's", not the best thing in recession times.
Owning an 02 car is not a thing to moan about, to me it's a perfectly acceptable nearly new car. Different outlooks.

borderlinemeath

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Pageant Messiah you are missing my point. I mentioned "old banger" and Borderlinemeath answered me pointing out he had an 02 car. An 8 year old car by my standards is not an old car.

That is exactly what I meant by Irish people having to lower their standards. In my book an 02 car is a "nearly new" car. Irish people it seems have been so used to having such a high standard of living the past few years that their vision of low vs high standard is distorted it seems.

I'm not basing this on Borderlinemeath specifically, but on observing my colleagues and friends too.
A lot of them believe they are now "living simple and saving", when they in fact : eat out once or twice a week ; buy a new outfit for a work function ; spend in average 100-150 euros (minimum) on a night out, and go out more than once a week ; get their hair done for a work function (my colleagues are mostly female you will have guessed ), never pluck their own eyebrows (beautician's job), buy a branded buggy for their baby, because you wouldn't be seen dead pushing an unbranded one ... These things to them are not luxuries, they are "normal" expenses.

Borderlinem's reaction to my saying "I'm not buying" was very telling : Skinflint. If you don't do the above things you are : a skinflint. You refuse to buy something 20 % dearer than you can get it : skinflint.
Do you not find this shocking ?
We are in the middle of a recession, and I am talking about saving money, and being called skinflint by a retailer ? it is so representative of the frame of mind people are still in, despite the recession.

So when retailers, amongst others, say that they are experiencing tough times and are cutting their wages as low as they can possibly go, I cannot but think well, if you didn't go out twice a week and spend more than 200 euros on your nights out, you would have enough money to cover this or that bill, or you might just make do with a lower wage.

Irish people are still trying to "keep up with the Jones's", not the best thing in recession times.
Owning an 02 car is not a thing to moan about, to me it's a perfectly acceptable nearly new car. Different outlooks.

Just so you know Mountainsandh, I have NEVER owned a new car, the one i had previous to this was 96.
I RARELY go out socialising. I went out 2 weeks ago for the first time since Christmas. No joke. I can't afford to spend money on rounds of drinks and dinner.
I NEVER go the beauticians, I am perfectly capable of plucking my own eyebrows thanks very much.
I haven't been to the hairdressers since last November.

From what I gather from your last post you seem very bitter towards your friends and colleages who do have a disposable income and spend it on what they wish.

I called you skinflint because your original post was about a discount retailer (one of the cheapest in Europe) yet your post was about them "ripping us off" by €20.
You have no idea of the position that Irish retailers are in, yet you choose to support faceless internet online shops abroad. I find your attitude to your adopted homeland very miserly indeed.

Mountainsandh

Borderlinemeath Ok.
As regards my colleagues, I earn the same as them, so I wouldn't really call it bitterness, disapproval and puzzlement yes, definitely.
And yes, I still think Lidl are unfairly offering inflated prices in Ireland, discount shop or not, and with 20 euros here, a euro there, five euros on another item, etc... they are indeed nicely covering their higher costs :rolleyes:.

I was already living here in 95-96, then moved for good in 97, and in more than a decade, I have seen the changes happening in Ireland, with the French upbringing always giving me a different perspective. A bit of distance if you like. So I have seen friends gradually getting sucked in to the overspending of the last few years.
I've never had that lifestyle, never was tempted to get into the spending spree, again thanks to the French upbringing probably.

So what appears to be a miserly attitude nowadays, is in fact the way I've always been living, not overspending, and trying to save when I can. Fourteen years ago I didn't "stand out" from the rest in Ireland, and now... I do I suppose.

I spend a lot of money on things that are important to me. It stays in the Irish economy when I think I get value for money, or that the service is worth it.

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

A lot of them believe they are now "living simple and saving", when they in fact : eat out once or twice a week ; buy a new outfit for a work function ; spend in average 100-150 euros (minimum) on a night out, and go out more than once a week ; get their hair done for a work function (my colleagues are mostly female you will have guessed ), never pluck their own eyebrows (beautician's job), buy a branded buggy for their baby, because you wouldn't be seen dead pushing an unbranded one ... These things to them are not luxuries, they are "normal" expenses.

This is not the normal for an owner of a small to medium retail enterprise or those employed within the management sector of these ventures. This keeps sailing over your head.

Mountainsandh

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0507/retail.html

And I'll reiterate that in the 2 lovely towns I frequent on a regular basis, there are no "closing down sale" signs to be seen, and since the start of the recession only 4/5 maximum shops have closed down, out of a good 30 (or more !) shops.
I know a small retailer who doesn't seem to envisage closing down anytime soon, or distant for that matter. Then again he started selling/buying online a while ago, to complement the brick and mortar business.... What a clever guy .

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0507/retail.html

And I'll reiterate that in the 2 lovely towns I frequent on a regular basis, there are no "closing down sale" signs to be seen, and since the start of the recession only 4/5 maximum shops have closed down, out of a good 30 (or more !) shops.
I know a small retailer who doesn't seem to envisage closing down anytime soon, or distant for that matter. Then again he started selling/buying online a while ago, to complement the brick and mortar business.... What a clever guy .

Pacing Mule

CSO Retail Sales for last 5 years

Even with a 3.6% increase versus March 2009 which is completely skewed by the government scrappage scheme on new car sales the retail sales would still be about 6% down on pre 2005 levels. 2009 was a disastrous year and a 3.6% rise on disastrous sales is still a disastrous set of sales figures.

Take a look though at the whole of the article ...

RTE Article You Linked To wrote:

When motor sales are stripped out, however, the annual decrease in the value of retail sales was higher, at 5.3%.

Yet again you cherry pick what suits you and ignore everything else. Sales are actually down on 2009 when you take out the motor trade.

4 or 5 shops out of 30 closed down = 16% or so. That's huge !
You know one retailer who doesn't have plans to close soon - excellent for him but something that isn't exactly a wow find now is it when there are 25 shops in the town still trading. And even those who are in desperate trouble are not going to be actively planning shutting down.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah would you please stop treating me like an idiot, I have read the whole article, and despite the figures going down, what it really means is that sales are still happening, and things are indeed looking up.
84% of retailers are still retailing, and that is not the sob story you would like everyone to believe.
Indeed that one retailer I know is surely not alone, and retailers who have adapted to the changes best, whatever way they have found of doing so, will be the ones to survive.

You can ***head on desk*** as much as you want, the reality is not necessarily what Pageant Messiah likes to portray, and you have not convinced me.
As I said, in tough times, the strongest and the cutest will survive. Same for industry, and every other sector.
Expecting customers to pay an extra 20 % or more on items that can be got cheaper elsewhere is akin to expecting hand-outs. If Co councils are indeed making things a lot more difficult, well then it shouldn't be the customers who are targeted to fix this.

yuloni

This post has been deleted.

EnoughIsEnough

Hi Mountainsandh

I am a bit late with this information for you but maybe it will help someone else.

You spoke of buying a branded cifffee maker online from France for €37 including delivery charge.

On 15 April I bought a DeLonghi 10 cup filter coffee maker for €20.16 in Debenhams here in Cork. (the normal price would not be much higher at €24.25) so i guess the message is to search Irish retailers (online or in realtime) prices before buying online.

Mountainsandh

Condi wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Condi you're right, this has been going on long enough, without getting anywhere.
I persist and I sign though, that Lidl, amongst many others, are fixing inflated prices for Ireland, and that customers of the European Union have a right to shop around, and find the best prices to suit their budget in these hard times for everyone.
Thanks for the perfectly timed remark .
Bye Pageant Messiah, hope you manage to come out right on the other side (really).

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Pageant Messiah would you please stop treating me like an idiot, I have read the whole article, and despite the figures going down, what it really means is that sales are still happening, and things are indeed looking up.
84% of retailers are still retailing, and that is not the sob story you would like everyone to believe.
Indeed that one retailer I know is surely not alone, and retailers who have adapted to the changes best, whatever way they have found of doing so, will be the ones to survive.

You can ***head on desk*** as much as you want, the reality is not necessarily what Pageant Messiah likes to portray, and you have not convinced me.
As I said, in tough times, the strongest and the cutest will survive. Same for industry, and every other sector.
Expecting customers to pay an extra 20 % or more on items that can be got cheaper elsewhere is akin to expecting hand-outs. If Co councils are indeed making things a lot more difficult, well then it shouldn't be the customers who are targeted to fix this.

The only way I'm treating you like an idiot is by pointing out the flaws in your logic and reasoning. If that makes you look or feel like an idiot that's for you to address. I may as well bang my head against a brick wall because it will never sink in for you. You are even contradicting yourself now

I have read the whole article, and despite the figures going down, what it really means is that sales are still happening, and things are indeed looking up.

Despite the sales continuing to decline things are looking up.

84% of retailers are still retailing, and that is not the sob story you would like everyone to believe.

Another classic pick what you want moment. My point was that if retailers were ripping the public off that much and making excessive profit they wouldn't be closing down. I think losing one sixth of a towns retail operations is a huge blow and is catastrophic in economic terms. The other 5/6ths I have never said were all struggling or loss making so the sob story you're trying to pin to me is a fabrication of your mind. Of course there will be some retailers who are going to be able to survive - it would be ridiculous for anyone to argue otherwise.

Expecting customers to pay an extra 20 % or more on items that can be got cheaper elsewhere is akin to expecting hand-outs. If Co councils are indeed making things a lot more difficult, well then it shouldn't be the customers who are targeted to fix this.

If the cost of doing business here is 15% higher then how in Gods name is factoring those costs into the retail prices expecting hand outs ? Give me a solution here because in all my life I've always worked from the assumption that a business has to cover it's costs in it's sale price to survive. If you know some magical way to allow for the costs that can't be cut by your beloved downsize and sell online solution then post up because we're all ears.

Should the retailer say sorry Mr taxman I'm not going to charge the higher VAT rates here because it's unfair to target my customers like that ? Let's tell the council we won't be paying the rates this year as we want to keep the prices down. This could be done in the fantasy world you are viewing life from but in reality it's not an option.

Mountainsandh

EnoughIsEnough wrote: »

Hi Mountainsandh

I am a bit late with this information for you but maybe it will help someone else.

You spoke of buying a branded cifffee maker online from France for €37 including delivery charge.

On 15 April I bought a DeLonghi 10 cup filter coffee maker for €20.16 in Debenhams here in Cork. (the normal price would not be much higher at €24.25) so i guess the message is to search Irish retailers (online or in realtime) prices before buying online.

Enough is Enough, thks for info, and yes it's a pity it's a bit late. Cork is a bit far for me to buy everyday household items, cost of driving there would probably counteract the savings, and working all week with a family it would be hard to find the time to travel there, but it is a great price. I do give a chance to Irish retailers always, I make a point of systematically checking the prices of my local retailers before I buy online, so if they did match the price I have in mind, they would have my business.

Mountainsandh

Pageant Messiah wrote: »

The only way I'm treating you like an idiot is by pointing out the flaws in your logic and reasoning. If that makes you look or feel like an idiot that's for you to address. I may as well bang my head against a brick wall because it will never sink in for you. You are even contradicting yourself now

Despite the sales continuing to decline things are looking up.


Another classic pick what you want moment. My point was that if retailers were ripping the public off that much and making excessive profit they wouldn't be closing down. I think losing one sixth of a towns retail operations is a huge blow and is catastrophic in economic terms. The other 5/6ths I have never said were all struggling or loss making so the sob story you're trying to pin to me is a fabrication of your mind. Of course there will be some retailers who are going to be able to survive - it would be ridiculous for anyone to argue otherwise.


If the cost of doing business here is 15% higher then how in Gods name is factoring those costs into the retail prices expecting hand outs ? Give me a solution here because in all my life I've always worked from the assumption that a business has to cover it's costs in it's sale price to survive. If you know some magical way to allow for the costs that can't be cut by your beloved downsize and sell online solution then post up because we're all ears.

Should the retailer say sorry Mr taxman I'm not going to charge the higher VAT rates here because it's unfair to target my customers like that ? Let's tell the council we won't be paying the rates this year as we want to keep the prices down. This could be done in the fantasy world you are viewing life from but in reality it's not an option.

Pageant Messiah as I said I am leaving, and yes, I am French, and you know how the French like to strike and let the government know there is a problem ? Well yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting : address the problem where it is, and do not expect your customers to make up for the situation you are in.
Perhaps if you spent less time condescendingly commenting on the rip off thread, and stepped off your pedestal and sat down to think, you may come up with alternatives for your business.
You are obviously sitting there blaming everyone else for the situation you are in, and waiting for others to fix it, instead of trying to find solutions. That is your sector, your speciality, and it's up to you to try and survive as a business. Others do.
By the way, a come down from the spectacular sales of the boom days is obviously a bit of a shock to the system.
As I said, I'm finished, you are as much of a brick wall as I am.

borderlinemeath

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Pageant Messiah would you please stop treating me like an idiot, I have read the whole article, and despite the figures going down, what it really means is that sales are still happening, and things are indeed looking up.
84% of retailers are still retailing, and that is not the sob story you would like everyone to believe.
Indeed that one retailer I know is surely not alone, and retailers who have adapted to the changes best, whatever way they have found of doing so, will be the ones to survive.

You can ***head on desk*** as much as you want, the reality is not necessarily what Pageant Messiah likes to portray, and you have not convinced me.
As I said, in tough times, the strongest and the cutest will survive. Same for industry, and every other sector.
Expecting customers to pay an extra 20 % or more on items that can be got cheaper elsewhere is akin to expecting hand-outs. If Co councils are indeed making things a lot more difficult, well then it shouldn't be the customers who are targeted to fix this.

You are wearing rose tinted glasses and while I would be cautiously optomistic that the retail industry MAY be over the worst - I still don't buy into your theory that you think all is good.
In my local town there are over 20 shops closed down on the main street, that is a huge percentage - probably close to 50%. In the 2 main shopping centres there are lots of empty units from businesses that have closed down, mostly in the first couple of months of this year as they just cannot continue to trade.

And again you just choose a pie in the sky amount like "an extra 20%".
Not everything is 20%, not everything is 15%. There's lots of stuff in shops that is way less than 10% difference, yet you choose to keep wearing your blinkers and think that you are doing the right thing by shopping abroad.
Shame on you.

You haven't taken on board any of the arguments that were put to you, you have been dismissive of my perspective and others. You admit to "disappointment and puzzlement" of people you know spending their disposable income as and how they wish almost with an attitude of "pity the poor souls who spend money".
Well wake up because these people are keeping the economy going, the hospitality industry, the shops open and keeping Irish people in Jobs.
You seem to have an aversion to this. Maybe as you say yourself "it's your French upbringing"

Pacing Mule

Mountainsandh wrote: »

You are obviously sitting there blaming everyone else for the situation you are in, and waiting for others to fix it, instead of trying to find solutions. That is your sector, your speciality, and it's up to you to try and survive as a business. Others do.
By the way, a come down from the spectacular sales of the boom days is obviously a bit of a shock to the system.
As I said, I'm finished, you are as much of a brick wall as I am.

Again you put your own interpetation on things and take this as gospel truth. I have done nothing in this thread other than answer your original post about why the prices are higher here than elsewhere. I gave you a number of reasons why yet you insisted on believing that ALL retailers were ripping you off, still living the high life etc. I have merely pointed out that this is not the case for the majority of small traders out there and quite a few of the larger traders too.

It's not strictly speaking my sector at all - I used to work in retail management both in grocery and non food so I have a clear understanding of the margins and costs involved in doing business here versus elsewhere.

The thing that you can't grasp is that the boom sales led to boom expenses in regards to rent and rates and minimum wage hikes etc that are still there but the boom sales that were paying for them are not. If it was a case that sales dropped to pre 2005 levels along with the expenses dropping to pre 2005 levels most retail outlets would be more than capable of surviving. Retailers have been doing their utmost best to cut costs and prices in recent times and have cut everything to the bone. However there still remains the rent, higher hourly wages, commercial rates and higher VAT rates when competing with retailers outside this country.

The brick wall you're up against is simple facts. You've been provided with them many times but choose not to accept them. This brick wall is actually your own doing.

I wish you all the best in the future though.