Excellent Article about Barstoolers.

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Ush1 wrote: »

Not really, the LOI sides generally beat amateur sides in the cups anyway. Also, plenty of lower division(i.e. 2 leagues down from the top) LSL sides have gone to the top clubs and done fairly well in Cup matches. There is a chasm every step of the way to be honest.

Shels beat Shamrock Rovers in the LS Cup this season.

Ush1

Des wrote: »

Shels beat Shamrock Rovers in the LS Cup this season.

Shels are LOI though. I meant top LSL clubs.

flahavaj

Must say I've found the last two pages much more informative and enjoyable to read than the rubbish that has preceded it.

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Ush1 wrote: »

Shels are LOI though. I meant top LSL clubs.

There's also a chasm between the 1st Div and the PD though, which is also occasionally broken.

Ush1

Des wrote: »

There's also a chasm between the 1st Div and the PD though, which is also occasionally broken.

Yes, I'm not arguing there isn't.

Jazzy

stovelid wrote: »

If your views on the game are firmly held, you shouldn't need to pop up in every LOI thread going and hide behind sarcastic posts.

should we swap that round? why are there so many LoI threads proclaiming how much better they are then us?
if people start making claims like that then of course you are going to have a fight on your hands.

Level 14 at football fan CiaranC wrote:

You kind of proved my point here, well done.

nah you really dont get it do you? you've built up football into something that its not to suit your own agenda. as stovelid said, why are you on every thread like this bleating on about just how much better you are then the rest of us?
hmmm, I really do wonder. it isnt that you want/need to justify whats going on in your head is it? ya know, make yourself feel better and superior? when you learn to really understand the world, society and how it works then maybe your over-zealous, over-blown, over-romantic opinion on football and what it is can be taken slightly seriously instead of the self gratifying noise that it really is

stovelid

Jazzy wrote: »

should we swap that round? why are there so many LoI threads proclaiming how much better they are then us?

Far less than Q-Magazine type Ten-Best-Bench-Coats **** threads and Manc-Scouse arguments, I would wager.

Jazzy

stovelid wrote: »

Far less than Q-Magazine type Ten-Best-Bench-Coats **** threads and Manc-Scouse arguments, I would wager.

one is an over the top made up reply to try and reinforce your point, the other is probably right

OhNoYouDidn't

Crosáidí wrote: »

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

When was the last time an amateur side won the FAI cup?

Surely if they were 'just as good' they would win the majorty as there are more of them?

Unless you are talking through your swiss?

OhNoYouDidn't

Des wrote: »

There's also a chasm between the 1st Div and the PD though, which is also occasionally broken.

We played three players who had first team experience in the 4th domestic cup.

Fancy your chances if we played in the FAI Cup, or even the league cup?

OhNoYouDidn't

Jazzy wrote: »

nah you really dont get it do you? you've built up football into something that its not to suit your own agenda. as stovelid said, why are you on every thread like this bleating on about just how much better you are then the rest of us?
hmmm, I really do wonder. it isnt that you want/need to justify whats going on in your head is it? ya know, make yourself feel better and superior? when you learn to really understand the world, society and how it works then maybe your over-zealous, over-blown, over-romantic opinion on football and what it is can be taken slightly seriously instead of the self gratifying noise that it really is

Enough said. You are a consumer. What are the odds you own an inflatable hammer?

Krusader

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

When was the last time an amateur side won the FAI cup?

Surely if they were 'just as good' they would win the majorty as there are more of them?

Unless you are talking through your swiss?

At the end of the day, I don't want to follow a professional LOI team, I have no connection with, I do however feel connected to my local amateur club who I feel can mix it with alot of LOI teams

Spiritoftheseventies

Des wrote: »

Shels beat Shamrock Rovers in the LS Cup this season.

The Leinster Senior Cup not really a good example to be using Des. First division as a rule a very competitive league.
Took Dundalk a long time to get out of the first division

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OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We played three players who had first team experience in the 4th domestic cup.

So did we

Spiritoftheseventies

Crosáidí wrote: »

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

While I agree there are some amatuer sides out there their record since moving to LOI isnt very flattering. St Francis, St James Gate and Newbridge Town all struggled to make the transition from LSL to LOI

3hn2givr7mx1sc

It's a lot easier for an amateur team to look good against another amateur team or a LoI team that don't care about the result than looking good or competing with a LoI team in a league situation.

Spiritoftheseventies

baz2009 wrote: »

It's a lot easier for an amateur team to look good against another amateur team or a LoI team that don't care about the result than looking good or competing with a LoI team in a league situation.

To be fair thats a tiny bit disrepectful to the Amatuer teams. Some of them have produced terrific results in the FAI cup competitions and I dont think there is any LOI team that doesnt show up especially in FAI cup games. But as said they have struggled in the league

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

To be fair thats a tiny bit disrepectful to the Amatuer teams. Some of them have produced terrific results in the FAI cup competitions and I dont think there is any LOI team that doesnt show up especially in FAI cup games. But as said they have struggled in the league

Cup competitions are irrelevant in comparing teams, imo.

Barnsley beat Chelsea and Liverpool in the FA Cup a few seasons ago, Barnsley are no where near their level.

Clyde beat Celtic a few years ago, Ross County beat them last week, Exeter beat United a few seasons ago, Portsmouth beat Spurs last week and United two years ago.

All in the FA/SFA Cup.

dyl10

Nothing new in that article. I support the point it makes but I don't see anything special written there.

The real chip I have on my shoulder is with self-proclaimed football experts who have never been to a live football match, at any decent level.

dyl10

Just to add to the debate on top amateur teams against LOI teams:
Assuming people who are talking about amateur teams in Ireland are talking about intermediate teams (not strictly amateur), I've played with and against top LSL teams/players and premier division LOI players.

No intermediate team measures up to a premier division LOI team week in, week out.
Someone like Crumlin may beat a young side like Bray, in a one off cup fixture, given they have luck etc. on their side, but under dogs beat heavy favorites around the world regularly.

CSF

Jazzy wrote: »

you've built up football into something that its not to suit your own agenda.

I really have to laugh at this argument, because football has always been this way all over Europe outside of Ireland and throughout South America.

CiaranC

Jazzy wrote: »

nah you really dont get it do you? you've built up football into something that its not to suit your own agenda.

No, Ive posted exactly what football is to real football fans all over the globe. You think its just another brand of entertainment, akin to watching Pop Idol on television, youve posted as much earlier in the thread. What I dont get is why you get wound up when real football fans come on here and state exactly that, when you are in broad agreement with them really. You get all worked up with your level 14 nonsense because we are acting "superior". Well, we are superior, thats just it.

You dont seem to grasp that ours is the normal experience of football all over the world. It has nothing to do with the LOI.

YOU dont get it, youve never got it and you never will get it. Altough, thats just my, and a few other posters, opinion. If you are so certain we are wrong, just return to your television, im sure theres a reply of Blackburn vs Hull you can be watching.

CiaranC

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

To be fair thats a tiny bit disrepectful to the Amatuer teams. Some of them have produced terrific results in the FAI cup competitions and I dont think there is any LOI team that doesnt show up especially in FAI cup games. But as said they have struggled in the league

No more than non-league teams do in England. Thats the magic of the cup.

I agree that the first Division has a few make-up-the-numbers sides, but from about the top six sides in the 1st up there is no comparison between LOI and LSL.

Spiritoftheseventies

Jazzy wrote: »

should we swap that round? why are there so many LoI threads proclaiming how much better they are then us?
if people start making claims like that then of course you are going to have a fight on your hands.




nah you really dont get it do you? you've built up football into something that its not to suit your own agenda. as stovelid said, why are you on every thread like this bleating on about just how much better you are then the rest of us?
hmmm, I really do wonder. it isnt that you want/need to justify whats going on in your head is it? ya know, make yourself feel better and superior? when you learn to really understand the world, society and how it works then maybe your over-zealous, over-blown, over-romantic opinion on football and what it is can be taken slightly seriously instead of the self gratifying noise that it really is

Jazzy you really need to stop with these autamated "this is how the world" is statements. very annoying

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Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Jazzy you really need to stop with these autamated "this is how the world" is statements. very annoying

The ironing.

It's extreme

Jazzy

CiaranC wrote: »

No, Ive posted exactly what football is to real football fans all over the globe.

and how exactly do you know that? how are man utd & real madrid making all their money? football has changed, football supporting has changed and like mothers in 50s america you dont like this 'rock & roll' one bit. you will be bypassed as time moves on and yes, people will still go to games, people will still go to LoI games, people will still go to Norwegian 3rd division games. as I said, the only reason you are on here saying what you are is because you have this need to justify yourself and poo all over us because we are the majority. its a typical napoleon complex coupled with your standard model of circle jerking if you had any insight or depth into the modern game and how its run instead of your over-zealous, over romantic diatribe about how bad we all are because we dont watch football close to home then you might be able to make a point and your opinion might amount to something. but as is, its out dated, out of touch and sorely (not forgetting ironically) lacking in reality

Spiritoftheseventies

Jazzy wrote: »

and how exactly do you know that? how are man utd & real madrid making all their money? football has changed, football supporting has changed and like mothers in 50s america you dont like this 'rock & roll' one bit. you will be bypassed as time moves on and yes, people will still go to games, people will still go to LoI games, people will still go to Norwegian 3rd division games. as I said, the only reason you are on here saying what you are is because you have this need to justify yourself and poo all over us because we are the majority. its a typical napoleon complex coupled with your standard model of circle jerking if you had any insight or depth into the modern game and how its run instead of your over-zealous, over romantic diatribe about how bad we all are because we dont watch football close to home then you might be able to make a point and your opinion might amount to something. but as is, its out dated, out of touch and sorely (not forgetting ironically) lacking in reality

Far too many clauses there jazzy. Again keep posts shorter and avoid long winded statements.

Jazzy

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Far too many clauses there jazzy. Again keep posts shorter and avoid long winded statements.

oh right, I see you've decided to troll me as one football fan said to another, come an' ave a go if ya think yer ard enuff

CiaranC

football has changed, football supporting has changed and like mothers in 50s america you dont like this 'rock & roll' one bit

Finally, we are in agreement about something. We differ only in our opinions how much it has changed.

Football, at very top level, has changed due to an infux of debt and television revenue. It now panders to the likes of you, the casual television viewer. It competes with celebrity chefs, soap operas and talent shows for your limited attention span, at the expense of the people who made these football clubs and this game what they are. Naturally, some people are a bit miffed about this, especially when faced with sneering plastics on internet forums who have no clue about football or its traditions, and revel in the all-singing, all-dancing ultra-mega-super-saturday nonsense that is puked at us by Rupert Murdoch et al.

Meanwhile, at the thousands of football clubs for every one Manchester United or Real Madrid, life goes on. But you wouldnt know that, because Sky gives you no exposure to it, and you arent really interested anyway.

mayordenis

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Far too many clauses there jazzy. Again keep posts shorter and avoid long winded statements.

What? I don't believe critiqueing other posters writing style is a great way for discussion to move forward.

mayordenis

CiaranC wrote: »

Finally, we are in agreement about something. We differ only in our opinions how much it has changed.

Football, at very top level, has changed due to an infux of debt and television revenue. It now panders to the likes of you, the casual television viewer. It competes with celebrity chefs, soap operas and talent shows for your limited attention span, at the expense of the people who made these football clubs and this game what they are. Naturally, some people are a bit miffed about this, especially when faced with sneering plastics on internet forums who have no clue about football or its traditions, and revel in the all-singing, all-dancing ultra-mega-super-saturday nonsense that is puked at us by Rupert Murdoch et al.

Meanwhile, at the thousands of football clubs for every one Manchester United or Real Madrid, life goes on. But you wouldnt know that, because Sky gives you no exposure to it, and you arent really interested anyway.

How do you explain Irish people supporting English teams before the Sky generation?

Jazzy

CiaranC wrote: »

your limited attention span

and how do you know I have a limited attention span?

CiaranC wrote:

Meanwhile, at the thousands of football clubs for every one Manchester United or Real Madrid, life goes on. But you wouldnt know that, because Sky gives you no exposure to it, and you arent really interested anyway.

and how do you know this?

very very presumptuous arent we? in fact I can pretty much taste the bile from here. you are just proving me right you know that? your only reason for posting is to make yourself feel better and for us to feel worse, and thats the thing about opinions, its the weight behind them that gives substance to what they are.. otherwise they dont exist. they are just figments of imagination.
So with your ultra biased militant style of opinion making which only serves you 2 purposes of an extreme nature, you blankly rule out any weight which this would have.

therefore the validity of your points are in question, and as proved by your presumptions you have little or no point at all, except that which you make up

CiaranC

mayordenis wrote: »

How do you explain Irish people supporting English teams before the Sky generation?

Fair question. Irish people began leaving the LOI in droves as soon as televised football began on BBC and ITV in the sixties. Before that LOI attendences were regularly over 20000. These new "fans" of English football (who pretty much NEVER travelled to England, whereas today at least there are a number of Irish fans of these clubs who are season ticket holders and actually go to most games), passed on their "support" to the generation after them.

I think this situation was probably the first of its kind anywhere due to the unique broadcasting arrangments between the two countries.

Dave!

Ahh great, a barstoolers thread! These are always good for highlighting the dickheads of the forum

Eirebear

Dave! wrote: »

Ahh great, a barstoolers thread! These are always good for highlighting the dickheads of the forum

shhh Dave! noone had noticed you yet!

CiaranC

and how do you know this?

Because I, you know, take an interest. I travel a lot, attend football games when I do (without having to pretend I am one of the home fans), read books about football and chat to football fans I meet. That kind of thing happens in football stadiums and between football fans. I spent last weekend with a bunch of Hadjuk Split supporters, lads who have the oldest Ultras group in Europe, they have great stories.

I dont follow the logic in the rest of your post btw.

Jazzy

CiaranC wrote: »

I dont follow the logic in the rest of your post btw.

you wouldnt want to

and as for the rest there, you are again, missing the point. my point was about your presumption and your yearning more for what you want, not what is

CiaranC

Jazzy wrote: »

you wouldnt want to

and as for the rest there, you are again, missing the point. my point was about your presumption and your yearning more for what you want, not what is

My experience of football is different than yours, so I see it different to you. There will always be a clash between our two viewpoints. Until next time.

Nalz

Is this thread something I should be reading at 2am? is it Irish premiership fans vs LOI vs neutrals with the occasional "lets all get along" 45069637 thanked post?

I'm going to sleep now!

OhNoYouDidn't

Jazzy wrote: »

you wouldnt want to

and as for the rest there, you are again, missing the point. my point was about your presumption and your yearning more for what you want, not what is

But thats the point. Like CiaranC, I get overseas for games at least twice a year, at least once to Italy and once a year on a random Ryanair adventure with the lads, to Spain, Germany, Croatia, Poland, France etc and catch a game or two over a weekend. Rovers are twinned with fans from Sweden, Italy, Denmark, Wales, the north, Germany.

We meet hundreds of real fans of real clubs every year and broaden our football horizons. You sit in the pub.

Our 'presumptions' are more valid than yours about football culture.

ntlbell

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But thats the point. Like CiaranC, I get overseas for games at least twice a year, at least once to Italy and once a year on a random Ryanair adventure with the lads, to Spain, Germany, Croatia, Poland, France etc and catch a game or two over a weekend. Rovers are twinned with fans from Sweden, Italy, Denmark, Wales, the north, Germany.

We meet hundreds of real fans of real clubs every year and broaden our football horizons. You sit in the pub.

Our 'presumptions' are more valid than yours about football culture.

Wow, all that traveling, meeting all those fans having your football horizons broadened and your still so narrow minded that you think everyone should expirience their hobby/interest/past time the same way as YOU and if they don't their not "real"

waste of money if you ask me.

CiaranC

ntlbell wrote: »

Wow, all that traveling, meeting all those fans having your football horizons broadened and your still so narrow minded that you think everyone should expirience their hobby/interest/past time the same way as YOU and if they don't their not "real"

waste of money if you ask me.

Football fans are the pretty much the same everywhere, they have common experiences. Its the barstoolers here that are the exception. Thats the point being made.

OhNoYouDidn't

ntlbell wrote: »

Wow, all that traveling, meeting all those fans having your football horizons broadened and your still so narrow minded that you think everyone should expirience their hobby/interest/past time the same way as YOU and if they don't their not "real"

waste of money if you ask me.

But it wouldn't be a waste if I spent it travelling to some random Northern English town?

No, what I am saying is that Jazzy's lazy argument that there is no cultural or policitcal background to football is inane and there is a wonderful world of football experiences to be had out there if he would extract himself from his armchair. Even pick up a book or two on the matter.

But he isn't interested in that, he just wants to be entertained and for him football rivals pop idol and the soaps. Thats fine, but he shouldn't then deny that the broader experience exists because he has no interest in it.

Father Damo

Melion wrote: »

The reason people dont follow the LOI is because very few of them can feel a connection to the teams. How many counties in Ireland are represented by a team in either division? From what i can see, its mainly Dubs who give out about people not following the LOI, but its ok for them because they have 7-8 teams to choose from.

I go down to Jackman Park(Limerick) when i can but i just dont feel the same connection to the Super Blues as i do to Liverpool.

Another reason is that LOI teams make little to no attempt to entice anyone who doesnt live within shouting distance of the stadium to come down. Particularly to kids. Barely any tv coverage until recently. Club jerseys are nearly impossible to find bar club shops and very large lifestyle sports (regular sports shops dont stock any). They simply do not get their name out there.

smackbunnybaby

To some people Pop Idol is far more than entertainment - don't be so dismissive of it!
IT IS some peoples weekend!

OhNoYouDidn't

Father Damo wrote: »

Another reason is that LOI teams make little to no attempt to entice anyone who doesnt live within shouting distance of the stadium to come down. Particularly to kids. Barely any tv coverage until recently. Club jerseys are nearly impossible to find bar club shops and very large lifestyle sports (regular sports shops dont stock any). They simply do not get their name out there.

English clubs didn't do any of this either. It was the glitz of Sky that created that market.

OhNoYouDidn't

CiaranC wrote: »

Football fans are the pretty much the same everywhere, they have common experiences. Its the barstoolers here that are the exception. Thats the point being made.

Its worrying that that simple point is stoically ignored by some and genuinely not understood by more.

Pepe LeFrits

Maybe if you tried to make the point without insulting people's intelligence they might be more receptive to what you have to say.

ntlbell

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But it wouldn't be a waste if I spent it travelling to some random Northern English town?

The waste was not the football, usually when people travel, meet a lot of people they start to realise that things aren't always as they seem, people think differently, see things differently, enjoy things differently.

as long as they're enjoying it, nothing else should matter and taken a holier than tho attitude towards such people won't encourage them to look at your way of thinking because you're too busy putting down theirs.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, what I am saying is that Jazzy's lazy argument that there is no cultural or policitcal background to football is inane and there is a wonderful world of football experiences to be had out there if he would extract himself from his armchair. Even pick up a book or two on the matter.

But he isn't interested in that, he just wants to be entertained and for him football rivals pop idol and the soaps. Thats fine, but he shouldn't then deny that the broader experience exists because he has no interest in it.

for some people there's not, it's a sport, you don't need a cultural/political connection to anything to enjoy a sport.

People don't need what YOU need/feel to get as much enjoyment out of something, this seems to be something you can't comprehend or understand.

I'm happy on a friday night with a cod n chip in dalymount.

I'm just as happy on a sunday morning watching a few kids in the phoienix park and I'm just as happy watching "super sunday" on sky.

I enjoy football, there's no rules, there's no need for connections. YOU might need it but you have to understand that others don't the fact your football horizons have been broaden so much this should be a pretty easy concept for you to understand.

ntlbell

CiaranC wrote: »

Football fans are the pretty much the same everywhere, they have common experiences. Its the barstoolers here that are the exception. Thats the point being made.

How is it any different from an english football fan who doesn't live in england.

e.g. any other country in the world, who enjoys thier weekend watching the footy on the box?

You think it's unique to Ireland?

Crazy talk.

a couple of million chinese travel each week to old trafford?

Where are they watching the game?


I was in a pub in london with a group of londoners who were united fans watching the game in the pub who don't travel to old trafford

English barstoolers...

Who would have thunk it :rolleyes: