Excellent Article about Barstoolers.

ntlbell

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Every Match Day , little Joe makes 15 mile round trip on foot through some of the most dangerous area of the planet to the so-called local bar ,Why does he make this weekly trip ,because the bar is home to the only TV in the entire area, And it is here that Little Joe gets to see his beloved Spurs ,He has not miss a game in 4 years. He will never be able to afford to see them live but that will not stop him and his weekly trips.......



Now is little Joe a Barstooler or Real Fan.

If he also makes a round trip to watch a local pub team in a field.

he's real.

if he doesn't he's a plastic fan apparently.

It's hard to say, the LOI haven't released the "real" fan rule book.

gosplan

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Worrying thing is that you probably believe that.

Well, I just asked you to back up what you were stating as fact and you haven't responded.

See below

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course I am.

Feel free to point out any innacuracies in that statement. 1888 Hayes Hotel. GAA inagural meeting. Vote as to whether they should play cricket and rugby in isolation from the existing 'British' sides or go with Irish games was taken. It was tight. Gaelic was invented, hurling codified into a field game. To borrow a phrase. Fact.

This isn't about 'owning anyone', persumptions or bitterness. This is about you stating things as fact when they simply aren't.

Keano

All I've to add and it's not much is at least barstoolers watch their team play. I'll be playing my weekly game of football tonight, its just for fun and there will be at least 3 or 4 Liverpool fans playing :rolleyes: If Liverpool get to the final they wont play next week as they'll say "sure Liverpool are in the final"

_blank_

Keano A Legend wrote: »

All I've to add and it's not much is at least barstoolers watch their team play. I'll be playing my weekly game of football, its just for fun and there will be at least 3 or 4 Liverpool fans playing :rolleyes: If Liverpool get to they final then wont play next week as they'll say "sure Liverpool are in the final"

Being a manager, if someone on my team misses a game because they'd prefer to sit at home/in a pub watching a match, they are usually dropped for the next match.

We soon get rid of these wasters though.

It is made very clear to new lads that this is not acceptable.

ntlbell

Des wrote: »

Being a manager, if someone on my team misses a game because they'd prefer to sit at home/in a pub watching a match, they are usually dropped for the next match.

We soon get rid of these wasters though.

It is made very clear to new lads that this is not acceptable.

you think they'd be clever enough to get an "injury" the week before in training.

Boardies :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Keano

Des wrote: »

Being a manager, if someone on my team misses a game because they'd prefer to sit at home/in a pub watching a match, they are usually dropped for the next match.

We soon get rid of these wasters though.

It is made very clear to new lads that this is not acceptable.

Aye but your team take it serious and I respect that. We just have a little kick around and always can make up numbers. People calling themselves a fan and then never making any attempt to watch a if you like a lesser game but will watch the final that to me is a joke.

gosplan

Des wrote: »

I started to properly support Shels less than a decade ago, when I started to go down to Tolka Park, I complained about the players and the cold, I was an idiot.

The difference is though, that I kept at it. It takes time to get into it. Luckily I had a decent bunch of lads to go with, who were already regulars.

Instead of going to one or two games and then writing it off, I think people should find an LoI fan and go with them for a while. Three months or so, maybe a couple of aways. Then judge.

I think that LOI vrs EPL threads should be banned or at least the above should be reposted in all of them.

All the LOI fans seem to acknowledge that football is a tribal/social thing and is about more than just entertainment - fine. I appriciate that and your evenings roaring on Bohs/Shels/Pats, or whoever, are far more empassioned than my Saturday afternoon watching Arsenal and ensuring my 8 month old doesn't vomit on my jersey(unless it's lucky vomit - which we went through a phase of).

However, with Des's suggestion in mind, I don't know any LOI regulars and I don't have any LOI supporting friends. Additionally, I don't really want any new friends and I don't have any free time.

Now that's just me, and if people here want to say they're more of a fan than me, then I'll probably agree - it's the disrespectful tone and barstooler comments that annoy me. They're unnecessary and don;'t win anyone over - which is what anyone who really cares about the LOI shoudl be looking to do.

Two other points if I may:

1: If 'real' football is tribal, than I can introduce you to people who support Liverpool, who's friends support Liverpool and who's parents and friend's parents support Liverpool. Regardless of international boarders, that's tribal and should be respected.

2: I work with a Lady who has a Man U season ticket. She goes over about twice a month, is ever present at big games, is continually devestated that she makes it to very few Champions League games because there's no late flight back for work the next morning, and all told probably spends about 10 - 15% of her wages on Man United. She does all of this on her own. She knows the guys who have the seats on either side but that's about it. That's not tribal, it's a personal obsession with a football team. It too should be respected.

antomorro-sei

gosplan wrote: »

I think that LOI vrs EPL threads should be banned or at least the above should be reposted in all of them.

All the LOI fans seem to acknowledge that football is a tribal/social thing and is about more than just entertainment - fine. I appriciate that and your evenings roaring on Bohs/Shels/Pats, or whoever, are far more empassioned than my Saturday afternoon watching Arsenal and ensuring my 8 month old doesn't vomit on my jersey(unless it's lucky vomit - which we went through a phase of).

However, with Des's suggestion in mind, I don't know any LOI regulars and I don't have any LOI supporting friends. Additionally, I don't really want any new friends and I don't have any free time.

Now that's just me, and if people here want to say they're more of a fan than me, then I'll probably agree - it's the disrespectful tone and barstooler comments that annoy me. They're unnecessary and don;'t win anyone over - which is what anyone who really cares about the LOI shoudl be looking to do.

Two other points if I may:

1: If 'real' football is tribal, than I can introduce you to people who support Liverpool, who's friends support Liverpool and who's parents and friend's parents support Liverpool. Regardless of international boarders, that's tribal and should be respected.

2: I work with a Lady who has a Man U season ticket. She goes over about twice a month, is ever present at big games, is continually devestated that she makes it to very few Champions League games because there's no late flight back for work the next morning, and all told probably spends about 10 - 15% of her wages on Man United. She does all of this on her own. She knows the guys who have the seats on either side but that's about it. That's not tribal, it's a personal obsession with a football team. It too should be respected.

Good post.

On the thing about the disrespectful tone towards barstoolers; I think its a circular thing, like we get awful abuse from said barstoolers because the league is ****e, apparently. (and the rest). This crap causes all the negative disrespectful comments.

Helix

what annoys me most is that anyone who follows english football is classed as a barstooler by some

Ush1

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Aye but your team take it serious and I respect that. We just have a little kick around and always can make up numbers. People calling themselves a fan and then never making any attempt to watch a if you like a lesser game but will watch the final that to me is a joke.

Yep but what you're describing is the typical smarmy modern casual football fan. In fairness, they almost always support Manchester United. They are exactly the type that turn up in the pub or talk to someone in work about "the match" when it's perhaps a final.

patmac

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Of course I am.

Feel free to point out any innacuracies in that statement. 1888 Hayes Hotel. GAA inagural meeting. Vote as to whether they should play cricket and rugby in isolation from the existing 'British' sides or go with Irish games was taken. It was tight. Gaelic was invented, hurling codified into a field game. To borrow a phrase. Fact.

But the essential question here is were they sitting on bar stools at the time?
FYI Michael Cusack one of the founder members of The GAA was an early admirer of cricket, but no where and on no document was there a vote on cricket.
Amazingly it took 500 odd posts for you to bring the 'gah' into it, but then that's nothing new.

v3ttel

Ush1 wrote: »

Yep but what you're describing is the typical smarmy modern casual football fan. In fairness, they almost always support Manchester United.

Generalise much? :rolleyes:

mayordenis

Rooney10 please change you sig it's painful

Ush1

Rooney10 wrote: »

Generalise much? :rolleyes:

That's what this thread is about. Generalising.

_blank_

mayordenis wrote: »

Rooney10 please change you sig it's painful

I'm going to the SigPigs if he doesn't, and I hate the SigPigs

Keano

Des wrote: »

I'm going to the SigPigs if he doesn't, and I hate the SigPigs

Someone's already reported it.

_blank_

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Someone's already reported it.

Oh good, means I don't have to tarnish myself

Frisbee

Jayzus I though he just posted those pics, didn't realise they were his sig!

patmac

Ush1 wrote: »

Yep but what you're describing is the typical smarmy modern casual football fan. In fairness, they almost always support Manchester United. They are exactly the type that turn up in the pub or talk to someone in work about "the match" when it's perhaps a final.

I'm a barstooler and proud of it. I have supported Man Utd through thick and thin. Was at the Wimbledon game in 1987 with 22000 others. I live miles from any decent League of Ireland team and sit on a comfortable seat in the bar for most Man U matches. I don't feel inferior or superior to LOI fans and admire and even envy you for having a half decent team nearby to support.
Please don't hate me, in fact build a bridge and get over it, I honestly believe that you are doing nothing for the LOI by attacking people with no alliegence to LOI clubs and in fact are just turning them away.

Ush1

patmac wrote: »

I'm a barstooler and proud of it. I have supported Man Utd through thick and thin. Was at the Wimbledon game in 1987 with 22000 others. I live miles from any decent League of Ireland team and sit on a comfortable seat in the bar for most Man U matches. I don't feel inferior or superior to LOI fans and admire and even envy you for having a half decent team nearby to support.
Please don't hate me, in fact build a bridge and get over it, I honestly believe that you are doing nothing for the LOI by attacking people with no alliegence to LOI clubs and in fact are just turning them away.

Erm, I never mentioned anything about the LOI?
The post I replied to was a guy saying fans that don't watch games unless they're in a final and then proclaim they're fans.

Jayob10

Rooney10 wrote: »

Excellent points.

After reading Zayeds article, he is entirely right, theres room for both, but not with the attitude which some of the LoI fans display on this thread.

Both could go hand in hand if the minority of fans lost the small-minded petty high horse non-sense.

We are missing the point here. Posters have managed to wriggle the LOI into this debate.

This could also be an argument between fans of Liverpool Man Utd etc (who go the games) and "Barstoolers".

I know plenty of these fans myself who are experts on all things EPL in the pub and have no interest in going to a game in the UK when they have an opportunity to do so.

Sure irish football fans shouldn't feel obliged to go and see LOI games between clubs that they may not feel a connection with.
But its the same fans who have never been to old trafford in their lives despite feeling a so called great connection. A great connection with the pub on saturday/sunday more like.

This is the real argument here, leave the league of ireland out of it.

You see most irish fans are not even true fans of these English clubs they follow on tv.

Keano

Jayob10 wrote: »

We are missing the point here. Posters have managed to wriggle the LOI into this debate.

This could also be an argument between fans of Liverpool Man Utd etc (who go the games) and "Barstoolers".

I know plenty of these fans myself who are experts on all things EPL in the pub and have no interest in going to a game in the UK when they have an opportunity to do so.

Sure irish football fans shouldn't feel obliged to go and see LOI games between clubs that they may not feel a connection with.
But its the same fans who have never been to old trafford in their lives despite feeling a so called great connection. A great connection with the pub on saturday/sunday more like.

This is the real argument here, leave the league of ireland out of it.

You see most irish fans are not even true fans of these English clubs they follow on tv.

Explain?

Jazzy

ohnoyoudidnt wrote:

Worrying thing is that you probably believe that.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But Jazzy will be along in a second to tell us that football stadiums don't exist anymore because they don't impact on his post moderen bubble and the only matches played in the 21st century are those on his telly.

with that kind of response, you're bang right I do

OhNoYouDidn't

patmac wrote: »

I'm a barstooler and proud of it. I have supported Man Utd through thick and thin. Was at the Wimbledon game in 1987 with 22000 others. I live miles from any decent League of Ireland team and sit on a comfortable seat in the bar for most Man U matches. I don't feel inferior or superior to LOI fans and admire and even envy you for having a half decent team nearby to support.
Please don't hate me, in fact build a bridge and get over it, I honestly believe that you are doing nothing for the LOI by attacking people with no alliegence to LOI clubs and in fact are just turning them away.

You see, to me thats the bit of the arguement I don't find credible. 'LoI clubs are too far from me so I picked a team in a different country because its more accessible'.

Not buying that. Are you telling me you have more of a 'connection' with Manchester than Dublin or Cork?

OhNoYouDidn't

Jazzy wrote: »

with that kind of response, you're bang right I do

Very simple question. Do you accept that you are missing out on a huge aspect of the football experience by not going to live games?

Jayob10

Keano A Legend wrote: »

Explain?

Listen ive made my feelings clear throughout this thread, I have no hidden agenda for the league of ireland despite going to games myself. It is what it is, you either wanna go or you dont.

I know countless Man Utd and Liverpool fans in this country who have a passing interest. yet come Super Sunday they are true fans. My god to listen to them they can convince you they care dearly for their club.

Some have even supported other clubs before they settled on the club they follow now. Some even pick and choose the games they will watch depending on importance. Now I have great respect for irish fans who travel to anfield or old trafford regularly and support their team for real, even fans who get over maybe once or twice a year despite financial constraints. Some "fans" claim they are die hards who can't afford it, yet most weeks they shell out on pints every weekend and watch the game that way.

But as I said i would bet the majority claim allegiance to english teams and support from the comfort of their barstool without any real intention of going to experience watching their team live. And boy are they missing out.

And when push comes to shove they are not really bothered. Its a social thing they confuse as being a passion.

Ush1

Jayob10 wrote: »

Listen ive made my feelings clear throughout this thread, I have no hidden agenda for the league of ireland despite going to games myself. It is what it is, you either wanna go or you dont.

I know countless Man Utd and Liverpool fans in this country who have a passing interest. yet come Super Sunday they are true fans. My god to listen to them they can convince you they care dearly for their club.

Some have even supported other clubs before they settled on the club they follow now. Some even pick and choose the games they will watch depending on importance. Now I have great respect for irish fans who travel to anfield or old trafford regularly and support their team for real, even fans who get over maybe once or twice a year despite financial constraints. Some "fans" claim they are die hards who can't afford it, yet most weeks they shell out on pints every weekend and watch the game that way.

But as I said i would bet the majority claim allegiance to english teams and support from the comfort of their barstool without any real intention of going to experience watching their team live. And boy are they missing out.

And when push comes to shove they are not really bothered. Its a social thing they confuse as being a passion.

Poignant and bang on the money. Basically what I was trying to say above.

KittyeeTrix

Jeez, who died and made these lot GODS??????

I absolutely fookin' resent some "whatever" sitting behind a keyboard telling me that he/she knows more about my passion for Man City than I do.....
I mean WTF?

So glad there is a courtesy restraint on boards or the screen would be blue!!! (from swearing and insults)

I don't presume to tell a LOI supporter about their passion so why the hell do they feel they can to me??:mad:

Mind your bloody own

ntlbell

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Very simple question. Do you accept that you are missing out on a huge aspect of the football experience by not going to live games?

Listening to anto in one ear and deco in the other cobble some awful song together as they then go on to discuss the intricacy's of how to play profesional football with no first touch, and randomly calling the ref's mother a c*nt.

while there sisters walk up and down for 90 minutes to see what fellits in the crowd spot them like they're at a school disco.

Trust me jazzy, the romance of the LOI isn't what it's cracked up to be

Jazzy

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Very simple question. Do you accept that you are missing out on a huge aspect of the football experience by not going to live games?

there is an aspect of course, but its not as big and as major as you want it to be. your inability to really answer anything else ive said is tantamount to you asking these sort of inane questions. I understand it though, as Ive pointed out with your nature and the lack of any weight in your opinion, you just want to elevate yourself and sh1t all over anyone else. If it wasnt the LoI it would be something else... and the thing is, you have proved it on this forum many times. I could prove it, but... ya know

KittyeeTrix

Ush1 wrote: »

Erm, I never mentioned anything about the LOI?
The post I replied to was a guy saying fans that don't watch games unless they're in a final and then proclaim they're fans.

That's a different scenario Ush than the fans of EPL who follow their teams all the season but can't make it to football games whether it be for money or logistical reasons....and even if I were to follow Galway Utd, what's to say I'd want to go to a game......Would I then be less of a fan because I didn't want to go to the match??

Personally, I've never been to a football game of City's but I have young kids and attend college so really it's not practical....still wouldn't make me want to follow Galway Utd, but that's my choice!!!!! and I'll be damned if someone will tell me that just because they sit up at Terryland once a week makes them a more passionate supporter than me:(

Ush1

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

That's a different scenario Ush than the fans of EPL who follow their teams all the season but can't make it to football games whether it be for money or logistical reasons....

Personally, I've never been to a football game of City's but I have young kids and attend college so really it's not practical....still wouldn't make me want to follow Galway Utd, but that's my choice!!!!! and I'll be damned if someone will tell me that just because they sit up at Terryland once a week makes them a more passionate supporter than me:(

I agree, the only point I was making was people who suddenly chirp in and are a football fan when the lads are going tothe pub to watch the match or whatever. As the other poster put it, they are confusing being a fan with a social bonding. Basically they're not really into football. I'm not having a go at people that can't go to live games or anything.

KittyeeTrix

Ush1 wrote: »

I agree, the only point I was making was people who suddenly chirp in and are a football fan when the lads are going tothe pub to watch the match or whatever. As the other poster put it, they are confusing being a fan with a social bonding. Basically they're not really into football. I'm not having a go at people that can't go to live games or anything.

I get ya!!!:)

eightyfish

God, this thread is repetitive.

ntlbell

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Very simple question. Do you accept that you are missing out on a huge aspect of the football experience by not going to live games?

Why don't you do something useful with your time.

Why don't you offer to bring some members of boards to go with you to see the hoops?

Oragnise a bus to collect them, a tour of the staduim, chat with one or two of the players.

Introduce them to the local hoop "charecters" in the bar and then off to a game.

It would be a lot more benificial than your current tactics into shaming people into it.

TheBigLebowski

For me, it's very simple. Watching football on TV is shite. You can't replicate the feeling of being in the stand, feeling every kick, seeing the full pitch all at once, looking at what you want to look at rather than what the cameraman wants you to see, actually feeling the atmosphere in the crowd etc. To me, that's what being a spectator is about.

TV will never match that feeling regardless of what Andy Gray might say. I will gladly lower my 'standard of football' to go and watch live football every week.

KittyeeTrix

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

For me, it's very simple. Watching football on TV is shite. You can't replicate the feeling of being in the stand, feeling every kick, seeing the full pitch all at once, looking at what you want to look at rather than what the cameraman wants you to see, actually feeling the atmosphere in the crowd etc. To me, that's what being a spectator is about.

TV will never match that feeling regardless of what Andy Gray might say. I will gladly lower my 'standard of football' to go and watch live football every week.

Good for you!!;)

Nothing wrong with that
You choose to watch a "lower standard" of football live while I choose to watch football on TV.......Fair enough

Mars Bar

Is it just LOI followers that claim that people who are a fan of an English team is a "barstooler"?

I am a big Man Utd fan, I keep an eye out on the reserves and academy and...go to the pub every weekend to watch them play. However, I also make time to go up to my local club (my local club is NOT Galway United), almost every weekend to watch them play. There might only be 15 up there watching it, but we're there.

So, am I a "barstooler"?

TheBigLebowski

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that
You choose to watch a "lower standard" of football live while I choose to watch football on TV.......Fair enough

For me it's an easy decision and I'd imagine it is for real football people. There's a reason opposition managers actually go the games to see the oppossition teams play rather than switch on SKY. You miss so much of the actual game watching it on TV. It really doesn't compare.

Bobalicious93

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

For me it's an easy decision and I'd imagine it is for real football people.

There we go again. Another condescending remark. The argument should've ended there, but some of the LOI fans insist on trying to belittle fans of the evil foreign leagues.

Live and let live. Just accept that a lot of people don't want to support a team they have no connection to whatsoever. That doesn't make them any less of a football fan than you. End of.

KittyeeTrix

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

There we go again. Another condescending remark. The argument should've ended there, but some of the LOI fans insist on trying to belittle fans of the evil foreign leagues.

Live and let live. Just accept that a lot of people don't want to support a team they have no connection to whatsoever. That doesn't make them any less of a football fan than you. End of.

Sure look at the sig!!!!!
Seems volumes and the response was typically condescending as you've pointed out:D

Can only laugh and shake head disbelievingly at that type of attitude and not let it get to me, cos honestly, who gives a flying what some "insert whichever word ya feel suits" thinks

GLaDOS

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

Just accept that a lot of people don't want to support a team they have no connection to whatsoever.

Mmmm, irony

KittyeeTrix

TheBigLebowski wrote: »

For me it's an easy decision and I'd imagine it is for real football people. There's a reason opposition managers actually go the games to see the oppossition teams play rather than switch on SKY. You miss so much of the actual game watching it on TV. It really doesn't compare.

How do you rate the lads in Galway who would call themselves Galway Utd supporters but don't go to live games or is your criticsm purely reserved for those who follow EPL and watch Sky??

Just curious...

Bobalicious93

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Mmmm, irony

By 'connection', I don't mean it in the purely literal sense, I meant an emotional connection. If people grew up watching United/Liverpool/Chelsea etc. as a child, it's natural they will build up an emotional connection to the team, even moreso than the connection they'd feel with their 'local' team.

So sorry to whet your appetite, but there's no irony to feast on in that post I'm afraid

GLaDOS

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

By 'connection', I don't mean it in the purely literal sense, I meant an emotional connection. If people grew up watching United/Liverpool/Chelsea etc. as a child, it's natural they will build up an emotional connection to the team, even moreso than the connection they'd feel with their 'local' team.

So sorry to whet your appetite, but there's no irony to feast on in that post I'm afraid

But people start supporting foreign teams when they've no connection to them. You're hardly born with an emotional connection to United.

Bobalicious93

ScienceNerd wrote: »

But people start supporting foreign teams when they've no connection to them. You're hardly born with an emotional connection to United.

You're not born with an emotional connection to any team. It develops.

If you have no exposure to the LOI as a child, how are you supposed to have any connection to a team in it?

With United being regularly televised when I was growing up, I was obviously going to be more likely to develop an emotional connection with them than I was with Bohs/Rovers/Pats/any other Dublin team.

Growing up in Tallaght I had no real 'local' team. My Dad always worked on LOI match nights, and with no other family members remotely interested in football, travelling to a ground wasn't really an option. Rovers would technically be my 'local' team now, but I have no connection to them. Am I expected to just go and start supporting them now?

GLaDOS

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

If you have no exposure to the LOI as a child, how are you supposed to have any connection to a team in it?

I started supporting Bohs when I was 17, it's not difficult. As you said you build up the connection, so you can't say you don't support a LOI team because you've no connection, it's not an excuse.

Foxx92

fluffyorganic1 wrote: »

Personally, I've never been to a football game of City's but I have young kids and attend college so really it's not practical....still wouldn't make me want to follow Galway Utd, but that's my choice!!!!! and I'll be damned if someone will tell me that just because they sit up at Terryland once a week makes them a more passionate supporter than me:(

Not singling you out or anything, but what exactly turns you off going to Terryland? Genuine question..

applehunter

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

You're not born with an emotional connection to any team. It develops.

If you have no exposure to the LOI as a child, how are you supposed to have any connection to a team in it?

With United being regularly televised when I was growing up, I was obviously going to be more likely to develop an emotional connection with them than I was with Bohs/Rovers/Pats/any other Dublin team.

Growing up in Tallaght I had no real 'local' team. My Dad always worked on LOI match nights, and with no other family members remotely interested in football, travelling to a ground wasn't really an option. Rovers would technically be my 'local' team now, but I have no connection to them. Am I expected to just go and start supporting them now?

I didnt start supporting Cork City properly until I was 17/18. My father had no interest at all in the "foreign game" so it took me myself to make the 1st step with one of my buddies to head out to the Cross.

And if I was from Tallaght I would have thought surely a natural curiosity would exist to go and see the new stadium???

Plus Rovers have had the basketball team and underage teams out there for over 10 years.

TheBigLebowski

Bobalicious93 wrote: »

There we go again. Another condescending remark. The argument should've ended there, but some of the LOI fans insist on trying to belittle fans of the evil foreign leagues.

No need to get your knickers in a twist there. When I said 'real football people', I meant people actually involved in the game which is why I mentioned managers attending games. No need to jump on the defensive...

Do you think the real football people learned what they know watching TV? Did Mourinho learn all he knows from Andy Gray? Watching football on TV does not substitute attending games. End of story.

Anyway, time to leave the barstooler debate for now. Should come back in about 6 months or so I'd say...