Excellent Article about Barstoolers.

Memnoch

CiaranC wrote: »

For hundreds of millions fans of the game all over the world, Manchester, Liverpool and London included, football goes well beyond mere entertainment. Its being part of something, its tribal, its about who you are and where you came from, its political, its about volunteering, about community, about perseverance in all situations, about loyalty, its about ritual, history and hope, its about the generations who came before you, and the ones who will come after you, about the mere act of standing in a place, among your peers, men and women and kids just like you, with a common goal - cheering your place against their place. For these hundreds of millions, its a religion.

At least it used to be.

Great, good for you.

Me. I enjoy football because I like sports. I like the skill involved, and I DO watch it for entertainment. I haven't been to a lot of matches though I would like to go more. I have no affinity or affiliation to any particular team, though if I like a player(eg Messi) I will try and watch the matches their team plays in.

There are plenty of things in my life that give me a sense of belonging though I think the community aspect of football can be great.

But this whole, real football fan nonsense is highly amusing. What does that label mean anyway? Is it a big pat on your back to make yourself feel superior to others or something? I only say that because this term has been used in a way that suggests great contempt is attached to those who don't meet some artificial criteria.

I love my football. And I've argued passionately about it on many occasions. Hell, if you ask the Mrs. she'd probably say I was a bit of a fanatic about it. Better tell her I'm not a real fan(atic). Sure she'll be relieved.

Jazzy

CiaranC wrote: »

For hundreds of millions fans of the game all over the world, Manchester, Liverpool and London included, football goes well beyond mere entertainment. Its being part of something, its tribal, its about who you are and where you came from, its political, its about volunteering, about community, about perseverance in all situations, about loyalty, its about ritual, history and hope, its about the generations who came before you, and the ones who will come after you, about the mere act of standing in a place, among your peers, men and women and kids just like you, with a common goal - cheering your place against their place. For these hundreds of millions, its a religion.

At least it used to be.

im really really super mega big into Mad Max. fukin love it. can that be a religion too? and what about texaco down the road from me. its been there for ages and ages, like since way back.. one of the first garages in ireland. a lot of history to that garage, heck I used to work there... can I go and cheer them on? that'd be odd "GO ON TEXACO PREMIUM!!! Unleaded! super job on the forecourt today son!".
What you are doing is building up football into something that its not to suit your fanaticism. and besides, if we are in Ireland and what you say is the case, then shouldnt we all really support Dublin in GAA instead? its got the double header of being Irish and being local... great stadium too what about rugby? whats the rules on that? like how do you support that exactly? Im a little rugBY-curious, but im not sure if Im doing it right? Is rugby about racism?! I mean the most famous team in the world is the all-blacks so when we get in the stands are we having a pop at hitler and racists? whats the deep rooted social meaning and agenda behind darts too? I love a bit of bully me but again, Im not sure if Im doing it right
Im not sure if Im allowed to like formula 1 now that eddie irvine and eddie jordan arent in it? I mean all ill be doing then is blindly supporting some german with a big chin and I wont really know the social and historical meaning behind it. fiddlesticks cos I really like fast cars.


Just how in f**k do I like sport? You have thrown me all adrift here because I thought stuff like business, socialising, school, work, travelling, going to a show, charity work, the media, recycling, family and Bono were aspects in this country in which peers unite and ya know, do stuff... but it turns out that mighty football says thats a nich nich and you must pray to its shrine for redemption amoungst our gods.

you've convinced me CiaranC. tomorow I shall get a poster of John Fashanu and I will pray to him every night before I brush my teeth. then on friday Ill go to bray and watch a game of football because I like the sport and apparantly thats what Im meant to do because the magnificant CiaranC, OhNoYouDidntsaythatliverpoolfanswere..., gav "shels" and... I dunno, some other member of the gestapo say that Im a plastic barstool fan and a lower form of life (if its a religion...) as I used to like watching Liverpool play on the telly.
one question though, just how will I see Bray Wanderers play from inside my own arse? I mean Ive got a nice ass (so say the ladies) but even then if I copy you and the others ive mentioned there Im going to really have to stick my head the whole way up and Im afraid Ill miss out on the experience
Is there some sort of snorkel/periscope deal I can invest in? Is that how its done?

wobblyknees

Jazzy wrote: »

im really really super mega big into Mad Max. fukin love it. can that be a religion too? and what about texaco down the road from me. its been there for ages and ages, like since way back.. one of the first garages in ireland. a lot of history to that garage, heck I used to work there... can I go and cheer them on? that'd be odd "GO ON TEXACO PREMIUM!!! Unleaded! super job on the forecourt today son!".
What you are doing is building up football into something that its not to suit your fanaticism. and besides, if we are in Ireland and what you say is the case, then shouldnt we all really support Dublin in GAA instead? its got the double header of being Irish and being local... great stadium too what about rugby? whats the rules on that? like how do you support that exactly? Im a little rugBY-curious, but im not sure if Im doing it right? Is rugby about racism?! I mean the most famous team in the world is the all-blacks so when we get in the stands are we having a pop at hitler and racists? whats the deep rooted social meaning and agenda behind darts too? I love a bit of bully me but again, Im not sure if Im doing it right
Im not sure if Im allowed to like formula 1 now that eddie irvine and eddie jordan arent in it? I mean all ill be doing then is blindly supporting some german with a big chin and I wont really know the social and historical meaning behind it. fiddlesticks cos I really like fast cars.


Just how in f**k do I like sport? You have thrown me all adrift here because I thought stuff like business, socialising, school, work, travelling, going to a show, charity work, the media, recycling, family and Bono were aspects in this country in which peers unite and ya know, do stuff... but it turns out that mighty football says thats a nich nich and you must pray to its shrine for redemption amoungst our gods.

you've convinced me CiaranC. tomorow I shall get a poster of John Fashanu and I will pray to him every night before I brush my teeth. then on friday Ill go to bray and watch a game of football because I like the sport and apparantly thats what Im meant to do because the magnificant CiaranC, OhNoYouDidntsaythatliverpoolfanswere..., gav "shels" and... I dunno, some other member of the gestapo say that Im a plastic barstool fan and a lower form of life (if its a religion...) as I used to like watching Liverpool play on the telly.
one question though, just how will I see Bray Wanderers play from inside my own arse? I mean Ive got a nice ass (so say the ladies) but even then if I copy you and the others ive mentioned there Im going to really have to stick my head the whole way up and Im afraid Ill miss out on the experience
Is there some sort of snorkel/periscope deal I can invest in? Is that how its done?

I think you have just proven that you kind of like sport and stuff in general, which is perfectly fine, but you really do not understand the tribalism behind football.

Spiritoftheseventies

CSF wrote: »

Terrible article, in the sense that its pretty much what anyone could have written in a post on this forum, but what he is saying is true. Its just not very witty or insightful which is something you'd hope for in an article.

Agree there

stovelid

Frisbee wrote: »

So being a fan is assessed on the success and financial nature of your club?

It would seem so in many cases?

I've lost count of how many people contribute derogatory posts about the possibl8itly of supporting a small team from an unfashionable league and compare it to supporting one of the biggest clubs in the world.

If there are so many random factors involved in picking a foreign team to support (my brother liked them; the shirt was the same colour as my da's car; they were playing the day I made my confo), how come the overwhelming majority of Irish supporters of an English club happen to split amongst the most 3-4 successful teams of the last 30 years?

CiaranC

Jazzy wrote: »

embarrassing rant about texaco or something

You kind of proved my point here, well done.

everdead.ie

stovelid wrote: »

It would seem so in many cases?

I've lost count of how many people contribute derogatory posts about the possibl8itly of supporting a small team from an unfashionable league and compare it to supporting one of the biggest clubs in the world.

If there are so many random factors involved in picking a foreign team to support (my brother liked them; the shirt was the same colour as my da's car; they were playing the day I made my confo), how come the overwhelming majority of Irish supporters of an English club happen to split amongst the most 3-4 successful teams of the last 30 years?

It's those clubs which recieve the most games on tv and most media coverage so there most likely the first ones your exposed too I picked spurs because of Robbie Keane

stovelid

Jazzy wrote: »

im really really super mega big into Mad Max. fukin love it. can that be a religion too? and what about texaco down the road from me. its been there for ages and ages, like since way back.. one of the first garages in ireland. a lot of history to that garage, heck I used to work there... can I go and cheer them on? that'd be odd "GO ON TEXACO PREMIUM!!! Unleaded! super job on the forecourt today son!".
What you are doing is building up football into something that its not to suit your fanaticism. and besides, if we are in Ireland and what you say is the case, then shouldnt we all really support Dublin in GAA instead? its got the double header of being Irish and being local... great stadium too what about rugby? whats the rules on that? like how do you support that exactly? Im a little rugBY-curious, but im not sure if Im doing it right? Is rugby about racism?! I mean the most famous team in the world is the all-blacks so when we get in the stands are we having a pop at hitler and racists? whats the deep rooted social meaning and agenda behind darts too? I love a bit of bully me but again, Im not sure if Im doing it right
Im not sure if Im allowed to like formula 1 now that eddie irvine and eddie jordan arent in it? I mean all ill be doing then is blindly supporting some german with a big chin and I wont really know the social and historical meaning behind it. fiddlesticks cos I really like fast cars.


Just how in f**k do I like sport? You have thrown me all adrift here because I thought stuff like business, socialising, school, work, travelling, going to a show, charity work, the media, recycling, family and Bono were aspects in this country in which peers unite and ya know, do stuff... but it turns out that mighty football says thats a nich nich and you must pray to its shrine for redemption amoungst our gods.

you've convinced me CiaranC. tomorow I shall get a poster of John Fashanu and I will pray to him every night before I brush my teeth. then on friday Ill go to bray and watch a game of football because I like the sport and apparantly thats what Im meant to do because the magnificant CiaranC, OhNoYouDidntsaythatliverpoolfanswere..., gav "shels" and... I dunno, some other member of the gestapo say that Im a plastic barstool fan and a lower form of life (if its a religion...) as I used to like watching Liverpool play on the telly.
one question though, just how will I see Bray Wanderers play from inside my own arse? I mean Ive got a nice ass (so say the ladies) but even then if I copy you and the others ive mentioned there Im going to really have to stick my head the whole way up and Im afraid Ill miss out on the experience
Is there some sort of snorkel/periscope deal I can invest in? Is that how its done?

You know, your level-12 sarcastic answers are getting mortifying (and longer if that's possible) at this stage. You might not agree with people like CiaranC are saying but why not engage with it and give a serious answer? Or just ignore it.

You just look defensive otherwise. Like the other 90% of posters here who just hide defensively behind tongue-in-cheek lampooning of real or not real fans.

If your views on the game are firmly held, you shouldn't need to pop up in every LOI thread going and hide behind sarcastic posts.

Spiritoftheseventies

stovelid wrote: »

You know, your level-12 sarcastic answers are getting mortifying (and longer if that's possible) at this stage. You might not agree with people like CiaranC are saying but why not engage with it and give a serious answer? Or just ignore it.

You just look defensive otherwise. Like the other 90% of posters here who just hide defensively behind tongue-in-cheek lampooning of real or not real fans.

If your views on the game are firmly held, you shouldn't need to pop up in every LOI thread going and hide behind sarcastic posts.

So you haven't being facepalmed yet. I feel your pain brother

Roar

this thread was a good way to start work on a tuesday morning!

personally, I'm a LoI fan, but I don't look down on people who are not. I did back in my more militant days, but now I can respect that people don't like the league.

However, I do try to convince those people to at least try coming to a game. I've brought several different friends to games over the past year, most of them didn't like it, however one of the guys (a diehard liverpool supporter who thought the LoI was sh!t all his life) became addicted to it and has now been to more Cork City games than I have been to this season.

I've heard all the arguments about the standard of football being terrible, crumbling stadia, etc etc.. and yeah, they're all valid. Anyone who was at City v Monaghan on Friday will tell you it was one of the worst games of football they've ever seen (sweet christ it was muck).. But it's not just about the football..

It's about the craic and the banter on the terrace, getting to know people just because they stand in a spot near to you every week, it's about writing articles for the fanzine, waving flags, organising displays, chatting to players after the game, going to under 21s and youth games cause there's nothing else to do... that's what I love about LoI football.. not the football itself, everything else that goes with it. You don't get that from Sky Sports.

However, I don't knock barstoolers. See, I am one myself. People can support the LoI and a foreign club, be they in the premier league, SPL, La Liga, Serie A or whatever. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. This year I've been to Goodison Park more than I've travelled away for a City game. Everton and Stoke's 1-1 draw was an absolutely shocking game of football, and the Bullens Road should be condemend, so it reminded me of a LoI game

Look, I know people are very passionate about the LoI, and people are passionate about following teams abroad. Both's cool with me.

baalthor

stovelid wrote: »

If there are so many random factors involved in picking a foreign team to support (my brother liked them; the shirt was the same colour as my da's car; they were playing the day I made my confo), how come the overwhelming majority of Irish supporters of an English club happen to split amongst the most 3-4 successful teams of the last 30 years?

Isn't this the case in every league in the world?
More successful or higher profile teams will have more supporters. For example Shamrock Rovers have had a surge in support since their move to Tallaght. Should these new supporters have stayed away and continued to support their previous local* team or were they secret Rovers supporters all along ?

*Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a local team in Tallaght who were hoping to get promoted to the LOI ? What happened to them?

CiaranC

baalthor wrote: »

Isn't this the case in every league in the world?
More successful or higher profile teams will have more supporters. For example Shamrock Rovers have had a surge in support since their move to Tallaght. Should these new supporters have stayed away and continued to support their previous local* team or were they secret Rovers supporters all along ?

*Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a local team in Tallaght who were hoping to get promoted to the LOI ? What happened to them?

Not sure who you mean. We merged our schoolboys operation with Tallaght Town 10 years before the senior team got to Tallaght, as a measure to put down further roots in the area.

Interestingly, a poll on srfcultrasforum.com just before the move showed our support base as being upward of 60% D24

baltimore sun

Been to the a good few LOI games around the country and been to a few premier league games over the years, you cant force people to like something just coz they're from a Bohs area or a Sligo rovers area,

you just cannot compare the leagues for their quality, and that's why premier league will always win,

people dont support their local LOI team because they already prob support their local GAA and county GAA team and LOI will never beat the GAA either, it's a shame, especially for someone like me who hates GAA organisation, I do like the sports though, so I reckon we're spoilt for choice when it comes to live sport in Ireland and with the LOI quality not really being all that good then it wont win, saying that though, moving the season to being in the "warmer" months was a very smart move and attendances will grow, give it a few more years and we may see a change

Eirebear

I moved to Ireland when i was ten, the two seasons before that i had been to every single game at Ibrox.

For nearly 5 years after that i didnt get to Ibrox once, simply because it wasnt affordable or in many cases possible for me to get there due to travel or whatever else.

I remember doing EVERYTHING possible to try and make sure i had some contact with Rangers when they were playing, my old man discovered that if we drove the car half a mile down the road and parked up we could pick up an extremely hazy reception of Radio Scotland, so off we would go like a bunch of idiots and sit in the car for a couple of hours listening to white noise coming out of the radio hoping to pick up on the garbled commentary coming from the speakers.
I remember even sitting in a pub with a bunch of Celtic fans watching the TELETEXT as it went around, updating us on the scores in the days before SKY.
Each goal was celebrated with the same passion as if we were watching it live, and many of the Celtic fans in the pub on those days are regular attendees at Parkhead.

Does this make me a barstooler? I dont know, but one thing im certain of is that no one can question my passion for my team.

On the other hand though, i do find it a little hard to take sometimes as i watch youngsters grow up supporting English teams, simply because of the damage it does to their local game.
The same thing is happening in Scotland now where you are more likely to see a Man Utd or Chelsea strip walking around Glasgow as any of the Scottish teams, and that scares me to be honest.

_blank_

EB, am I mistaken in thinking that you are/were a semi-regular at Finn Harps?

Eirebear

Des wrote: »

EB, am I mistaken in thinking that you are/were a semi-regular at Finn Harps?

I went along a few times a season, havnt been for a while now though since i came back to Glasgow

_blank_

Eirebear wrote: »

I went along a few times a season, havnt been for a while now though since i came back to Glasgow

Help me out here and tell me why you went.

Did you enjoy it?

Would you go back?

Eirebear

Des wrote: »

Help me out here and tell me why you went.

Did you enjoy it?

Would you go back?

I enjoy going to watch football, simple as that really.

At the time i was playing football too, and few of the lads i played with went on to play for Harps so there was an added draw there to go along and give them support.

I would go back yeah, theres something perversely enjoyable about standing in the pissing rain watching a game, i suppose it takes me back to days when i thought i could do it myself!

L'prof

Des wrote: »

Help me out here and tell me why you went.

Did you enjoy it?

Would you go back?

One of my old housemates is mad into Finn Harps, he's been to a few games and convinced me to go see them in Terryland. I was going going to go see them in Flancare too but, I didn't head home that weekend.

_blank_

Eirebear wrote: »

I enjoy going to watch football, simple as that really.

That's the answer I was looking for, thanks.:)

OhNoYouDidn't

Eirebear wrote: »

Does this make me a barstooler? I dont know, but one thing im certain of is that no one can question my passion for my team.

No. You have an actual link to your team, in this case they are your hometown club.

The issue here is picking Blackburn/Leeds/Chelsea or whoever is good at the time arbitrarily

L'prof

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No. You have an actual link to your team, in this case they are your hometown club.

The issue here is picking Blackburn/Leeds/Chelsea or whoever is good at the time arbitrarily

When I picked Arsenal, I knew nothing about them. One of the lads down the road liked their name and so 3 of us started supporting them and have ever since. I had a Liverpool schoolbag the year before so, I could easily have started supporting them but, I didn't!

flahavaj

The way I see it I can identify totally with those fans who enjoy the live atmosphere, the buzz, the feeling of community you get from watching local sport and the feeling that you're supporting something thats a part of you etc. I get that from going to GAA matches personally and enjoyed those things when I use to go watch the Blues when I lived in Waterford.

I just don't understand why that means you have to look down your nose at people who prefer to support an English team, or enjoy their soccer from their armchair, or indeed their "barstool"? Why do ye give a f*ck? Horses for courses. Some people prefer homecooking, others like fancy restaurants. One is not better than the other, just different. Indeed some people enjoy both equally.

Al I know is one set of suporters looking down their noses at the other or thinking they're better in some way is f*cking stupid and a total waste of time. As most of the nonsense in this thread would suggest.

_blank_

flahavaj wrote: »

Some people prefer homecooking, others like fancy restaurants.

Actually, I much prefer my own homecooking, had a BBQ at the weekend for instance, and my home made burgers were fúcking savage.

No McDonalds Secret Sauce or anything on them, just ketchup, mayo and a bit of calvita.

Jayob10

Roar wrote: »

this thread was a good way to start work on a tuesday morning!

personally, I'm a LoI fan, but I don't look down on people who are not. I did back in my more militant days, but now I can respect that people don't like the league.

However, I do try to convince those people to at least try coming to a game. I've brought several different friends to games over the past year, most of them didn't like it, however one of the guys (a diehard liverpool supporter who thought the LoI was sh!t all his life) became addicted to it and has now been to more Cork City games than I have been to this season.

I've heard all the arguments about the standard of football being terrible, crumbling stadia, etc etc.. and yeah, they're all valid. Anyone who was at City v Monaghan on Friday will tell you it was one of the worst games of football they've ever seen (sweet christ it was muck).. But it's not just about the football..

It's about the craic and the banter on the terrace, getting to know people just because they stand in a spot near to you every week, it's about writing articles for the fanzine, waving flags, organising displays, chatting to players after the game, going to under 21s and youth games cause there's nothing else to do... that's what I love about LoI football.. not the football itself, everything else that goes with it. You don't get that from Sky Sports.

However, I don't knock barstoolers. See, I am one myself. People can support the LoI and a foreign club, be they in the premier league, SPL, La Liga, Serie A or whatever. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. This year I've been to Goodison Park more than I've travelled away for a City game. Everton and Stoke's 1-1 draw was an absolutely shocking game of football, and the Bullens Road should be condemend, so it reminded me of a LoI game

Look, I know people are very passionate about the LoI, and people are passionate about following teams abroad. Both's cool with me.

Yes but the people who don't like the league are doing because its not entertaining enough for them. Its not out of some hatred or dislike for league officials or because of the poor organisation. These fans have zero interest in the league because of it pales in comparison to the EPL in terms of entertainment of quality.
Its a very different mindset to a real football fan who enjoys all of the many things a live game brings.
As I have said before these "barstoolers" as they are being called here are not really true supporters of the club they watch in the pub every saturday or sunday. I'm not saying its a bad thing, if thats what you are into.

But I do have a problem when they cannot see the difference between enjoying watching the game on tv, and actively seeking to see their team live.

There are only a very few true soccer fans in this country. I'm talking true supporters. In Britain the people live and breed the game.
Even the time of Italia 90 thousands of irish soccer fans appeared from nowhere. They celebrated the good times, and in turn deserted during the less successful times. Alot of the same crowd are rugby fans now, as they enjoy the good times an event brings.

If anything we are the best fans in the world at jumping on the bandwagon.

Ill tell you a story of one friend of mine. Quite a knowledgable bloke. To the untrained eye you would believe he was Man Utd's greatest supporter of all time. Used to support Liverpool mind, but swtiched over in the season before they won the first league title in 30+ years. From then til now hes a "diehard United fan". Never been to Old Trafford despite being offered the chance on countless occasions. Loves watching Ireland when times are good and switces off when we are poor.
Right now he is a crazy Rugby head, switching between Leinster and Munster (hes from Galway) and I mean this guy passes himself off as a great fan. I do have to laugh as sometimes I wonder does he realise how fickle he looks.

"Fans" who admit they dont follow as religiously as others and also who question just exactly what a real fan is are the low fat version of the football fan. The watered down version.
They will follow the team but only to a certain point. They are probably the ones who will first call for their managers head in the bad times, and sing his name during the good times.

There are so many variables to being a good football fan. If you claim to love something then immerse yourself in it, get right in their amongst it.

Don't just come out and watch it for the entertainment. Theres far more to it than that. And you'll be enriched for the experience.

smackbunnybaby

Eirebear wrote: »

I enjoy going to watch football, simple as that really.

Thread closed for me to be honest.
I'll pay money to see any team play, whatever league, whatever level.

Des wrote: »

That's the answer I was looking for, thanks.:)

It's the only answer you should be looking for.
No one has any right to dictate to anyone about how they watch their football.

Jayob10

smackbunnybaby wrote: »

Thread closed for me to be honest.
I'll pay money to see any team play, whatever league, whatever level.



It's the only answer you should be looking for.
No one has any right to dictate to anyone about how they watch their football.

I think you will see that the previous poster said he enjoys going to watch football in the pub.

Ah feck it I dont even mind lads like watching the match in the pub rather than going to games.

I just don't understand it thats all.

doncarlos

Jayob10 wrote: »

I think you will see that the previous poster said he enjoys going to watch football in the pub.

Ah feck it I dont even mind lads like watching the match in the pub rather than going to games.

I just don't understand it thats all.

Me neither. Would you rather see a band live or listen to them on a CD while sitting on a comfy armchair.

That_Guy

Having just read this article, I find it hard to comprehend how the LOI or Airtricity League attracts new fans if this is the attitude towards people who support an English team.

Was at the opening Bohs game this season and got talking to a couple of lads we met in the pub beforehand.

General talk about football and I told him that I actually support Newcastle and just wanted to come along to a Bohs game to see what the league was all about.

The sh*t I got from your man. "Local pride", "English bastards" blah blah blah.

If this is the attitude of LOI fans then I can safely say that I'll never return to watch a game again if I'm just gonna get abused for supporting an English team.

That_Guy

doncarlos wrote: »

Me neither. Would you rather see a band live or listen to them on a CD while sitting on a comfy armchair.

If it's Kings Of Leon you're better off staying at home.

antomorro-sei

Crosáidí wrote: »

Why would I pay €15 to watch the LOI, when I can watch the same standard of football in my local team for €2. Madness
When I was growing up, MOTD was always on, then Sky came, you never seen LOI on the TV, so people had no connection with the nearest club. Your local park is the best place to watch Irish soccer

Christ man :eek:

There's a huge difference between Sunday League and LOI.

Krusader

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

antomorro-sei

Crosáidí wrote: »

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

That's just ridiculous.

Krusader

why is it

Ush1

Crosáidí wrote: »

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

The likes of Crumlin or Bluebell are good sides, but they're not LOI standard at all.

_blank_

Ush1 wrote: »

The likes of Crumlin or Bluebell are good sides, but they're not LOI standard at all.

Crumlin knocked Shels out of last season's FAI Cup

Ush1

Des wrote: »

Crumlin knocked Shels out of last season's FAI Cup

I know but upsets happen. Looking at both clubs there is still a big difference, fitness levels particularly.

antomorro-sei

And Crumlin are probably the best of them amateur sides.

Like come on, the vast majority of LOI-v-sunday league team games finish 3/4-0.

stovelid

Des wrote: »

Crumlin knocked Shels out of last season's FAI Cup

We nearly held Madrid to a draw by that token.

The point about the entertainment angle always seems misplaced to me.

I'm an avid consumer of the entertaining top clubs like Barcelona too and watch them on the TV all the time. The only difference is that I can enjoy them without living an alternate fantasy existence where I think I'm from Catalonia and feel deeply affected by the issues and history associated with denizens of that place.

People sneer at supporters of smaller cubs from unfashionable leagues all around the world (be they LOI or anywhere else) but there is a moral superiority involved in supporting those clubs. Not the one that people sarcastically allude to here where you think you are better than other supporters, but rather the courage to stick with the club(s) that fate handed you in the raffle of your upbringing, even if you were not as lucky as people from Manchester, Barcelona or Milan. TV means that we can all enjoy those clubs and the football they play - even have favourites that we want to do well - without having to support them.

Krusader

They drew with them 1st at Tolka and then bet them in the replay
Also drew with Waterford in the next round only to be beaten 2-0 down there

bullpost

Des wrote: »

No McDonalds Secret Sauce or anything on them, just ketchup, mayo and a bit of calvita.

They still make calvita - didnt know that? Was reared on the stuff - best done on the grill on a piece of toast :P

LuckyLloyd

Crosáidí wrote: »

The top amateur sides are just as good as LOI teams

antomorro-sei wrote: »

That's just ridiculous.

Ush1 wrote: »

The likes of Crumlin or Bluebell are good sides, but they're not LOI standard at all.

Des wrote: »

Crumlin knocked Shels out of last season's FAI Cup

Ush1 wrote: »

I know but upsets happen. Looking at both clubs there is still a big difference, fitness levels particularly.

I'm sorry Ush, but he isn't that far off in what he is saying. If you take the top division of leagues like the Leinster Senior League or United Churches League, you will have a couple of sides in each that pay out expenses or small fees to players. And you will find many players in those leagues (in the top half certainly) who are comparable to players at the Division One level of the LOI.

I know for a fact that there are many players who choose to play amateur because it suits the broader stroke of their life; i.e. they could have a contract for a LOI club - but not for a club in a part of the country they want to live in. There is also a much greater time demand at Division One level given the distance that teams have to travel for matches, and particularly when you are talking about clubs who can't afford to stick players up for a night on a regular basis, or regularly pay for transport other than a coach, etc.

The reality is that the dividing line in standard is murkier and less defined than one might think. Obviously LOI Division one is better on average, but the teams at the bottom of that league are really, really awful.

And before anyone asks, I saw a number of LOI Division one games last year, have a knowledge of amateur football at various levels etc, etc.

_blank_

you're right Lloyd, word on the street in early 2006 was that many LSL players were approached to sign for Shels but wouldn't due to it not being worth their while money-wise.

Furthermore, I definitely think sides like Mervue and Salthill Devon would be a good bit below the standard in the upper echelons of the LSL.

Home Farm have the facilities and structure to compete in the LoI but choose not to.

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm sorry Ush, but he isn't that far off in what he is saying. If you take the top division of leagues like the Leinster Senior League or United Churches League, you will have a couple of sides in each that pay out expenses or small fees to players. And you will find many players in those leagues (in the top half certainly) who are comparable to players at the Division One level of the LOI.

I know for a fact that there are many players who choose to play amateur because it suits the broader stroke of their life; i.e. they could have a contract for a LOI club - but not for a club in a part of the country they want to live in. There is also a much greater time demand at Division One level given the distance that teams have to travel for matches, and particularly when you are talking about clubs who can't afford to stick players up for a night on a regular basis, or regularly pay for transport other than a coach, etc.

The reality is that the dividing line in standard is murkier and less defined than one might think. Obviously LOI Division one is better on average, but the teams at the bottom of that league are really, really awful.

And before anyone asks, I saw a number of LOI Division one games last year, have a knowledge of amateur football at various levels etc, etc.

Yes no doubt there is lots of ability and they may be able to play LOI but if you're thinking the standards of the general training and the general level of the games, they aren't comparable.

I play for an LSL club, not top division or anything but an LOI player trained with us at a stage last season and the difference is fairly night and day. The fitness levels they have are a massive leap over any amateur side.

eightyfish

That_Guy wrote: »

Having just read this article, I find it hard to comprehend how the LOI or Airtricity League attracts new fans if this is the attitude towards people who support an English team.

Was at the opening Bohs game this season and got talking to a couple of lads we met in the pub beforehand...

I'm sorry you about your experience in the pub. Please don't take that to be the attitude of LOI fans, though. I enjoy going to games in Dalymount, but to be honest I'm not hugely into football. It's something I do with my Dad. He brought me and my brother when we were kids and since I moved out of the family home 10 years ago it's the best time I get with him. His dad brought him to Bohs matches when he was a kid.

I like the crowd interaction, cheering and booing and insulting the ref's parentage. I like a pint after with the same faces discussing how good/terrible the game was. I find football on TV fairly boring. For me it's something I do as a fan rather than something I watch.

There has been a huge decline in crowds over the years. You get a bit sick of watching your team play against another side with no travelling fans at all (UCD etc). I used to enjoy going to away games against Pats but now the crowds are so patchy it's a bit depressing.

It really is thrilling to be there when your team wins against a long-standing rival, tops the league or wins a double. It's miserable when you loose. I've brought friends and some have come regularly realising how much fun it is to go to a match.

So; what we don't need is the attitude of those guys you met in the pub. What we do need are bums on seats and new fans. It really is a good product, if you give it a chance. If we don't support the LoI, it will degrade further and disappear and that really would be a tragedy.

smackbunnybaby

Des wrote: »

you're right Lloyd, word on the street in early 2006 was that many LSL players were approached to sign for Shels but wouldn't due to it not being worth their while money-wise.

I know Limerick have lost players this year as it was more worth their while playing 'amateur'.

LuckyLloyd

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes no doubt there is lots of ability and they may be able to play LOI but if you're thinking the standards of the general training and the general level of the games, they aren't comparable.

I play for an LSL club, not top division or anything but an LOI player trained with us at a stage last season and the difference is fairly night and day. The fitness levels they have are a massive leap over any amateur side.

The other aspect of the equation is that the difference between the top division of the LSL / UCL / AUL and two or three divisions lower in those structures is like a vast chasm. That's where the real dividing line in footballing standards in this country lies. Once you go beyond the top two or three divisions of any amateur league, the top to bottom standard in terms of fitness and technical ability nosedives dramatically.

I have been involved with a team in the lower reaches of the UCL for the past few years, and the couple of times they have drawn a team from the top division in the challenge cup (knock out competition open draw for the whole league structure) it is clear that it is a completely different ball game. And the team I'm involved in is quite competitive at the lower reaches, would have a few players who played at really high levels as teenagers, has a UEFA B License coach as player manager, etc - and they just wouldn't get near a Premier Division side.

So you are right in that a LOI player would make a mockery of the level you play at, but they would be kept in check by a lot of the top amateur sides. The dividing line is there, it just falls a little lower than you think it does.

Jayob10

smackbunnybaby wrote: »

I know Limerick have lost players this year as it was more worth their while playing 'amateur'.

theres a difference though in saying that some of the LSL sides are better than League of Ireland sides. There may be some decent players in the junior leagues but doesnt make the teams they play for better sides.

A good example, our local team played in the Junior Cup final last year, our main striker is deadly at that level, a cut above alot of players in the junior leagues.
He was in and out of a very poor LOI division one side for many seasons and couldn't find the net at all.

Theres a huge difference, no matter how bad ya even think Division One football is.

Ush1

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The other aspect of the equation is that the difference between the top division of the LSL / UCL / AUL and two or three divisions lower in those structures is like a vast chasm. That's where the real dividing line in footballing standards in this country lies. Once you go beyond the top two or three divisions of any amateur league, the top to bottom standard in terms of fitness and technical ability nosedives dramatically.

I have been involved with a team in the lower reaches of the UCL for the past few years, and the couple of times they have drawn a team from the top division in the challenge cup (knock out competition open draw for the whole league structure) it is clear that it is a completely different ball game. And the team I'm involved in is quite competitive at the lower reaches, would have a few players who played at really high levels as teenagers, has a UEFA B License coach as player manager, etc - and they just wouldn't get near a Premier Division side.

So you are right in that a LOI player would make a mockery of the level you play at, but they would be kept in check by a lot of the top amateur sides. The dividing line is there, it just falls a little lower than you think it does.

Not really, the LOI sides generally beat amateur sides in the cups anyway. Also, plenty of lower division(i.e. 2 leagues down from the top) LSL sides have gone to the top clubs and done fairly well in Cup matches. There is a chasm every step of the way to be honest.

smackbunnybaby

Jayob10 wrote: »

theres a difference though in saying that some of the LSL sides are better than League of Ireland sides. There may be some decent players in the junior leagues but doesnt make the teams they play for better sides.

A good example, our local team played in the Junior Cup final last year, our main striker is deadly at that level, a cut above alot of players in the junior leagues.
He was in and out of a very poor LOI division one side for many seasons and couldn't find the net at all.

Theres a huge difference, no matter how bad ya even think Division One football is.

Oh I realize that, my point was more to do with financial reasons, I just didn't say that! Financially it is better for them to play amateur.