It's a funny old game...

therecklessone

A post I made on another forum in it's entirety:

When it comes to formations it doesn't matter what the numbers are, it's how they line up on the pitch that counts.

Yeah we went out 442, but we were narrow in midfield because we split up BAE and Bale, Modric drifts central too much, and Bentley needs a wide man on the other side to stretch the opposition and allow him some space to work with.

Everybody was terrified of Palacios picking up his 10th yellow, yet with him out we played our two best games this season.

We are still in the race because of injuries/suspensions rather than inspite of them, and I hope 'Arry realises what his best team is based on the last three games rather than persisting with Modric on the left and wasting Bale's attacking potential.

In the run-up to the three "big games" posters on this forum were terrified of Palacios picking up a 10th yellow card, ruling him out of season-defining games. Yet without him we found a shape and rhythm that took the game to Arsenal and Chelsea, and beat both sides convincingly in the process.

Fast forward to yesterday, and Wilson returns to the side, pushing Modric out to the left, Bale to LB and BAE to RB to replace Kaboul. Now I'll be honest, I didn't think Kaboul was all that hot at RB in the preceding two games (certainly in the 1st half of both), but the alternative which was employed was disjointed, lacking in crucial width and shorn of our best attacking options.

I am not taking anything away from the achievement of Harry and his team in dragging themselves away from the drop zone last season, and in putting us in the driving seat for 4th place with 3 games remaining (also worth noting that 2 more points will mean our best ever points return in the PL, beating Martin Jol's 65pt side that missed out on the last day). However, I have a horrible feeling that we are were we are by default rather than by design: how many of Bale, Bentley, Pavlyuchenko or Dawson would have flourished this season if not for injuries to key players?

Bale - Modric broken leg
Bentley - Lennon absence
Pavlyuchenko - Defoe's injury
Dawson - Woody + King missing

Even Gomes was fortunate that Cudicini was first of all poor when played, then stupid enough to get on a motorbike on his way to training.

Harry Redknapp faces a massive choice these coming weeks, whether to revert to the team and shape that did such damage to Arsenal and Chelsea, or whether to continue with the side that froze yesterday vs United. And make no bones about it lads, that is one of the worst United teams we will face in a long time, and we fúcked up our chance to take advantage because of team selection above all else.

Our team vs Bolton must be:

Gomes
Corluka/Kaboul/Walker (in that order)
Dawson
Bassong
BAE
Bentley
Modric
Hudd/Wilson (in that order)
Bale
Pav
Defoe

I do not believe Lennon is ready for 90 minutes, but if we are in need of a lift I would introduce him around the 60min mark and let him do damage.

yiddo59

ronan

pretty fair summing up. on the other hand you could argue that Harry's "tough love" treatment of the players you mentioned (particularily pav, bentley and gomes) made them knuckle down, try to prove him wrong and grab their chances when they came along?

Then again maybe Arry is just a lucky manager!

Hatch99

Some interesting points. Firstly, I think we were all worried about Wilsons yellow on the horizon, not some of us , all of us. Nobody knew we were going to perform like we did in the 2 big home games. After losing at wembley, we needed a huge reaction which we got, the momentum then carried on to Chelsea. To hand pick Wilson and use him as an excuse or reason why Old Trafford didnt go right is silly.

He has had a good season for me.

We can perform well and dominate anybody at home, like we have showed recently, but to do that or get near doing that against the top teams away from home, we will always need a wilson type player in the team. We wont do that with 2 'footballers' in the middle imo.

Agree that some of the mentioned players would not have contributed as much as they have if not for injuries etc... but is that not part of the game ? Your going to get such situations every season !

I'd keep king wrapped up for Eastlands(they will prob play 4 up top bellamy tevez johnson and yer man ), and give Lennon 20 on sat and start him at Eastlands, as left back is an area where city struggle and could prove an area where we could have major success on the night.

RichMc70

As the old saying goes 'if it's not broke then don't fix it' or alternatively 'never change a winning side'.

However, The problem for me was not necessarily the team selection but the usual mental block that we have every time we go to Old Trafford. We always have the belief at WHL and whether that's because of the familiar surround or the fans being the extra man, I don't know but when we go away to the likes of Old Trafford, Anfield, Emirates, Stamford Bridge etc. then the belief just isn't there.

Ronan, I certainly with your point that it was "one of the worst United teams we will face in a long time", and more so without Rooney.

Like most Spurs fans I would have taken the draw if it was offered but we are fans and have no control over the game itself but I've often wondered if the players sub-consciously have the same 'I'd take the draw' mentality.

Time and time again this situation arises when we are up against the 'Sky 4'. Our record speaks for itself this season........

Home Stats: Played 4 Won 3 Lost 1
Away Stats: Played 4 Lost 4

Until we get a team who have a different psychology when we're away to top teams, then Saturdays result is going to be repeated year in, year out. The only way I can see this turning around is with either players who have been there and done it numerous times or alternatively a bit of luck which starts a momentum that our team start believing in themselves.

Still, as it stands destiny is in our own hands. We are not relying on favours but just ourselves performing and winning.

Regardless of what happens between now and the 9th May, we have a fairly decent squad and with possibly two or so world class players added in the summer, then who knows what position we will be in come this time next year.

therecklessone

Hatch99 wrote: »

Some interesting points. Firstly, I think we were all worried about Wilsons yellow on the horizon, not some of us , all of us. Nobody knew we were going to perform like we did in the 2 big home games.

Hence the thread title John.

Hatch99 wrote: »

To hand pick Wilson and use him as an excuse or reason why Old Trafford didnt go right is silly.

I'm not using Wilson as an excuse or as a scapegoat John, but accommodating him left us hamstrung when we should have started out going for the jugular. My fear is that our manager is not inclined to take the necessary risks that will get us big results on a regular basis, he went with the safe option yesterday when the evidence of the two previous games was that an attacking line-up could pay dividends.

All of the United fans I know were worried about yesterday, not just SAF-style patting on the head worried (i.e. not really, just condescending enough to keep us placid) but genuine "we might actually lose this game lads" worried.

I don't believe hindsight comes into this, we lined up wrong and it's got me thinking we might not be where we are right now if it wasn't for the injuries and suspensions.

Does anybody really think Bale's best position is LB?
Does anybody thing Modric should play LM?
Does anybody think BAE is a RB?

All of the positives from the previous two games were sacrificed yesterday, I just hope that Harry's innate conservatism does not cost us come May 9th.

Dublin Spur

Harry got it wrong yesterday - no doubt about it.
However 6 pts from those 3 games is very good.
I'm pretty happy. We still have 4th in our hands with 3 games to go.
That's a good thing

COYS

Hatch99

therecklessone wrote: »

My fear is that our manager is not inclined to take the necessary risks that will get us big results on a regular basis, he went with the safe option yesterday when the evidence of the two previous games was that an attacking line-up could pay dividends.

All of the United fans I know were worried about yesterday, not just SAF-style patting on the head worried (i.e. not really, just condescending enough to keep us placid) but genuine "we might actually lose this game lads" worried.



Does anybody really think Bale's best position is LB?
Does anybody thing Modric should play LM?
Does anybody think BAE is a RB?

Dont get me wrong, I aint harrys biggest fan by a long stretch, but i dis-agree with you on that one. I actually think he was right to bring wilson back in, as I said already, to get something from the top teams away from home, your not going to be successful with 2 footballers in the middle. You need to compete and have someone do the dirty work first, and neither Tom or Luka will do that for me.

1-I actually think his natural position is left full. At the moment, he probably aint good enough defensively (as was proved at OT) to play there home and away in the prem. Home games are different as you will always want your full backs to push on, particularly someone with his ability. Medium/Long term I think he will be a left full.

2- Lets be honest, before the goons and Chelsea game, we had never really seen Modric do the business in the middle. Great that he done it in such important games granted, but I still think if we are going to be successful, he will be played on the left. Maybe central in some home games.

3- As for this one, it's a no brainer.

therecklessone

Hatch99 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong, I aint harrys biggest fan by a long stretch, but i dis-agree with you on that one. I actually think he was right to bring wilson back in, as I said already, to get something from the top teams away from home, your not going to be successful with 2 footballers in the middle. You need to compete and have someone do the dirty work first, and neither Tom or Luka will do that for me.

With the players available to us, playing with Wilson yesterday backfired because while he was there to break up United's play we had nobody to exploit that due to the way the rest were set up, and that's not allowing for the fact that he lost the ball almost as many times as he won it for us (his short pass completion was very high, but he gives the ball away too often in general, he's like the anti-Paul Scholes in that he can tackle but he can't pass ) It's a nice idea to go to Old Trafford with steel in the middle, but you need to pick a team, not one individual.

1-I actually think his natural position is left full. At the moment, he probably aint good enough defensively (as was proved at OT) to play there home and away in the prem. Home games are different as you will always want your full backs to push on, particularly someone with his ability. Medium/Long term I think he will be a left full.

Here and now is all that matters, and Bale's best position for us would have been left-midfield yesterday. We lost our only source of pace and penetration, and the only player United truly feared, by playing him at LB. It was an awful decision, made worse by the fact that despite him being defensively frail we played a player (Modric) in front of him who is prone to drift into the centre and leave him exposed...against Antonio Valenica! (that would be PFA team of the year RW Valencia). Contrast that with the solid unit we employ with BAE fronted by Bale on the left.

I don't believe he will ever flourish at LB tbh.

2- Lets be honest, before the goons and Chelsea game, we had never really seen Modric do the business in the middle. Great that he done it in such important games granted, but I still think if we are going to be successful, he will be played on the left. Maybe central in some home games.

Again, yesterday was primary...based on the evidence of the preceding two games Modric in the middle was a no-brainer.

Long-term, unless he develops defensive discipline he cannot be trusted on the left as he will expose his LB too often by moving into the centre. And I'd challenge the point that until Arsenal/Chelsea he hadn't shown his true mettle, I think he's grown into the role for us over the last few games, he done well at home to Blackburn, and away to Stoke for example.

Mullo76

good post Ro. I agree with the thinking behind it, if Luka hadnt been injured would Bale have gotten a run etc etc... It certainly is a funny old game and the cards faith deals you are sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Harry f88ked up with selection, he should have left the team as it was. I understand that he wanted to steal up the middle and put Wilson on but I dont believe we needed it against that Utd team. i really think Luka and Hudd would have done the job, Wilson on the bench and if we are getting overrun then bring him on. Wilson has had a great year for us and I actually believe that playing alongside him has toughened Hudd up. He does more of the dirty work now. But the question on sat wasnt about Wilson it was about the balance we needed to win the game and unfortunately Harrys choices took that away from us. Should have left team as it was.

Bale has been one of the top left wingers past while, nominated for this and that. Shouldnt be played at left back unless no choice. BAE is amongst the worst right backs I have ever seen. He is just lost, all over the place -some players can adapt to different pos, he's not one of them. Harry had already seen this.

Anyway as Shane said 6 points from those 3 games. We would have taken that. Its in our hands and what a finish to the season it will be.

COYS.

Hatch99

therecklessone wrote: »

Again, yesterday was primary...based on the evidence of the preceding two games Modric in the middle was a no-brainer.

I'm afraid I dis-agree. Not denying he was superb against Arsenal and Chelsea, but going to Old Trafford, I would always play palacios. The job he does is something that neither Luka or Hudd would do.

In saying that, we could have went man for man against them, and played the 3 of them in the middle and given Luka the freedom, played 2 wingers high up and 1 up the middle. All well and good saying it now I hear you say

Anyway, 7 points now and I'll be happy

Wendell Gee

A fascinating conversation here. I thought we played quite well in the first half. A high line meant that our midfielders could press scholes and fletcher in their own half. The downside was our fullbacks were exposed to the ball over the top. Kaboul would have been eaten in that context, so BAE and bale were the best option I suppose. PAce out wide was vital.
The goals all came from lack of concentration. bale fell asleep on the job letting nani in, and Huddlestone hit a dozy slack-jawed pass, not the first he played all day. Why he slipped from the fantastic levels of application and resolution shown in the two previous games I'll never know.

Just a thought, previously expressed here. How about Bentley at RB. He has the distribution, he can tackle, I think his concentration levels would be up to it. It could be put to him that the position is up for grabs not just for Spurs, but for england as well. Lennon gets the RM position ahead of him all day long, so why not try him there. Imagine his deliveries from deep, or through balls for defoe et al on the break. Not necessarily for the next three days, but deffo next season.
Is Bale a lb or an lm? He's really a born wing back, but we'll never play 352 so I think at 20, he could be either, but we need to decide which for next season. BAE is so flaky, you never know what mindset he will briong to the pitch, esp for big games he seems to bottle it.
Long term, we have a fabulous squad, picking an 11 when all fit is going to be diffficult.

therecklessone

Wendell Gee wrote: »

BAE is so flaky, you never know what mindset he will briong to the pitch, esp for big games he seems to bottle it.

I take it you are excluding the most recent home games vs Arsenal and Chelsea?

He showed what he is capable of in both games with adequate support being provided by a wide left midfielder in front of him rather than Luka drifting inside.

I just don't understand how people continue to focus on Benny

Hatch99

therecklessone wrote: »

I take it you are excluding the most recent home games vs Arsenal and Chelsea?

He showed what he is capable of in both games with adequate support being provided by a wide left midfielder in front of him rather than Luka drifting inside.

I just don't understand how people continue to focus on Benny

BAE has been quite good for us over the last 12/18 months. Before Bale got in, BAE had been excellent. He does seem to have that odd moment where the red mist descends (stoke away), but then again, dont we all

Hatch99

Wendell Gee wrote: »

Just a thought, previously expressed here. How about Bentley at RB. .

Not for me pal, I'd have Jimmy Walker right full before Bentley.

Mullo76

Hatch99 wrote: »

BAE has been quite good for us over the last 12/18 months. Before Bale got in, BAE had been excellent. He does seem to have that odd moment where the red mist descends (stoke away), but then again, dont we all

I think Benny has been fairly solid over the season, made his few mistakes as does every player but was good for us. He's getting a lot of flak for sat but I think most of that blame goes to Harry (lunge for pen was a moment of madness on his part though). He played him right full and he already proved that he's lost on that side.

mickman

the decision harry had on sat with wilson back was a huge decision. he prob with wilson as most matches he is a superb player for us. on sat though he just seemed to stop the movement of the ball and just basically get in the way. i felt sorry for him as he clearly was distressed

you have to hand it to modric, in the arse / chelsea / united games he has stepped up and played a huge part. as croatia are not going to the world cup i think he has to train with les ferdinand ALL summer long and learn how to shoot. did ye see sat when he dinked to the left in the united box, left 3 defenders in his wake and just put a tame, crappy shot well wide. he should have hit the target from there. he has to learn how to shoot

we need to revert modric to the centre on sat and drop wilson. we can worry about accommodating him in the summer. he of course will remain a huge player for us but i think after sat his confidence will be down and hudds and modric's is very high.

paddyspurs

Hatch99 wrote: »

Not for me pal, I'd have Jimmy Walker right full before Bentley.

the problem was not bring wilson into midfield. it was getting a decent fill in for RB, if we filled that postion, there wouldnt have been any other positional cahnges. possibly instead of accomodating wilson in the centre, (where i thought tom and luka were doing fantasticly) he could have slot in at RB. he has played there for us before, then our left side wouldnt have been affected. bently would not be disiplined to do the RB role, and Kaboul drops into centre too much leaving time for opposition to get crosses in. Wilson i think would have tracked nani with no probs.

i think we always had a mental block against united. Chelsea we did well against in recent seasons, and the win against arse was coming anyway. but i think we will beat city.

kakee

I think we are only short a few players from being a really top team. I dont think Corluka has been great this season. He just seems to be going through the motions in games. In my opnion Bentley would not be any good there. It would take too much concentration for him.

Any word how Gio Dos Santos is getting on in Turkey (or is he still our player). He never really got a look-in at Spurs but I reckon he could still be a star.

everdead.ie

kakee wrote: »

I think we are only short a few players from being a really top team. I dont think Corluka has been great this season. He just seems to be going through the motions in games. In my opnion Bentley would not be any good there. It would take too much concentration for him.

Any word how Gio Dos Santos is getting on in Turkey (or is he still our player). He never really got a look-in at Spurs but I reckon he could still be a star.

He's on loan at Galatasaray they have the option to buy him at the end of the season I think he's going to be awsome at the world cup I think he has a lot to offer and would rue to see him leave

therecklessone

I'll tell you one thing lads, he got it spot on tonight (and Saturday, despite the squeaky bum nature of it all)

He's done a huge amount to lay my fears to rest, now just keep up the good work 'Arry!

Mullo76

therecklessone wrote: »

I'll tell you one thing lads, he got it spot on tonight (and Saturday, despite the squeaky bum nature of it all)

He's done a huge amount to lay my fears to rest, now just keep up the good work 'Arry!

agree completely with this Ro.
didnt think he had it tactically but tonight was spot on, I wouldnt have put Crouch on to start and it worked to a tee. as you say keep it up.