€302 annual tax on a 2010 Mercedes Benz?

Permabear

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stevejazzx

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why is it unfair that someone who is buying a new car should avail of lower tax rates designed to encourage that person to choose a greener car out of all the choices they have?

If you bought a car before the new basis of the tax was announced, you bought it in the belief that your road tax would be calculated on the basis of engine size - as far as you knew, forever. How can it be fairer to recalculate the basis on which you pay tax?

cordially,
Scofflaw

It is not unfair, it's just a poor model.
If I buy an expensive modern home with solar panels, internal water recycling and intelligent lighting systems, I am automatically being 'greener' and automatically saving money. However the lower income individual still has the possibility and ability to manage his equivalent costs i.e take less showers, don't wash car as frequently, manage his electricity, lighting heating more effectively. So although disadvantaged, individuals still pay taxes based on usage despite automatic systems available to those who are wealthier. In the motor world the lower income individual (in comaprision to the housing example above) pays a rate irrespective of usage. In the worst case scenario the 2010 Mercedes driver clocks up 150,000km a year and pays 302euro whereas a 2.0 liter Toyota 2002 driver clocks up 50,000km and pays 900. Obviously the fuel costs for Driver A are far higher and therefore fuel tax has been charged proportionately however the road tax charge is completely disproportionate and that is the point here.

dynamick

You think motor tax should be linked with mileage? Perhaps it should but there are technical difficulties to implementing a scheme that has to measure everyone's mileage. Fuel duties can't really go any higher without huge numbers of people such as Donegalfella's neighbours buying all their fuel over the border.

Eventually there will be a GPS based car tax system where you are charged for every mile you drive according to the road type and congestion. Insurance will be charged in this way too. Pay as you drive.

The current system is better than the previous system. The next system will be better still. (unless you live in Donegal) Let's hope for their sake that nobody introduces a donut tax or a tax on doing hand brake turns on the beach.

changes

I wrote to john gormley about 2 weeks ago on this matter, as I had to pay €580 on my 2004 1.9 diesel car, if i had been allowed apply the new system to my car i would be paying €300.

And also that the system is biased in favour of the well off.

Here is the response from his office:


Dear Mr.

I have been asked by Mr. John Gormley, T.D., Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to refer to your recent email in connection with the current motor tax rates.

I would like to explain that a public consultation process, held between December 2006 and March 2007 made it clear that the new CO2 based system would apply from a specified date and that cars registered before that date would continue to be taxed in future years under the existing motor tax system related to engine size.

Retrospection prior to 2008 would not be practical as there is no authenticated CO2 data for the majority of the existing fleet. The CO2 values on the Revenue and NVDF systems, in respect of new cars only, have not heretofore been used for any business purpose, have not been collected as the basis for a fiscal charge and, accordingly, have not been authenticated to any degree. It would be unsound to apply charges on the basis of such data.

If there was an optional "opt in" to the new system, it would undermine the revenue base of local government, resulting in serious financial problems for local authorities throughout the country. The Local Government Fund must have the resources necessary to meet demands. The clear objective of the new motor tax system is to influence the future purchasing decisions of consumers.

It will take some time for the full effects of the changes to VRT and motor tax to be known. In this respect the Government will continue to monitor their effects and to make adjustments to them over the coming years if necessary.'

Raiser

changes wrote: »

From the mail sent to Changes:

Retrospection prior to 2008 would not be practical as there is no authenticated CO2 data for the majority of the existing fleet.

Its an awful pity that we don't have a Nationwide Network of Motor Vehicle Testing Centres where daily measurement of exhaust emissions on every type of Car on the Road today could be utilised for this exact purpose

I cannot believe that some People on here continue to lack the common-sense, logical thought processes and basic Human empathy to understand that legislation that in its crude, poorly conceived implementation favours the wealthy while financially tolling the less well off is flawed. At the end of the day any System can be defended on many different fronts all day long, but ultimately there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything.....

Also the last time I checked we didn't have the overflowing Coffers and massive cash reserves to simply incentivise Rich Folk into paying a pittance on their Motor tax simply cause it fits with some silly agenda.

Asking someone who is happy to buy a 100K Car and put €100 of fuel in it every 5 days to pay less than €6 per week in motor tax is not progressive, its idiotic.

The reality for a lot of Families is that they will sit at the Kitchen table and budget to pay the weekly shopping , Household Bills etc. etc. and then finally €600 for the massive privilege of driving their Kids to School.

- Its also wrong that if paid quarterly you actually pay more Motor Tax as this simply shakes more money out of People who can't afford to pay for a full year all in one go...... The Green Party didn't bring this in, but I guarantee you that despite their Election time promises etc. they could be in power for 500 years and not attend to details such as these.

dynamick

Raiser wrote: »

Asking someone who is happy to buy a 100K Car and put €100 of fuel in it every 5 days to pay less than €6 per week in motor tax is not progressive, its idiotic.

A class C car priced at 100K includes 34K of tax. If we assume it's a diesel, then about 58% of all the fuel money goes in VAT, excise duty and carbon tax. So a guy who spends €100 every 5 days on fuel will pay about €4234 in tax per year. Plus an insurance levy plus vat on servicing.

That's a lot of revenue to raise.

Most people in Ireland don't own a car. So the whole craic about the most vulnerable in society has to be taken with a pinch of salt. The guy with a 1l car is hardly affected by any of these vrt or duty changes. The guy who use a bike or a bus isn't affected at all.

bijapos

changes wrote: »

I wrote to john gormley about 2 weeks ago on this matter, as I had to pay €580 on my 2004 1.9 diesel car, if i had been allowed apply the new system to my car i would be paying €300.
'

First of all how do you know that the emissions from your car would be so low as to be in the C tax category? Mind if I ask what kind of car it is?

I gave the example of the Megane above. On an 01 1.6 petrol tax would be €445, on a 2010 1.6 petrol the tax is €447. How is that unfair?

changes

bijapos wrote: »

First of all how do you know that the emissions from your car would be so low as to be in the C tax category? Mind if I ask what kind of car it is?
?

UK import passat and it says the emissions in the manual.

bijapos

Sounds right, theres two versions of the 1.9 one has 101bhp 151g/km its class C, the other has 130 bhp 159g/km , class D.

So what exactly do you propose? Stick with the old system? Point is, when you bought the car you knew how much tax it would cost, you would have factored this in along with a lot of other things in buying the car. Its not as if they've doubled the tax on your car.

Like I said in an earlier post car manufacturers are putting billions into reducing emissions, why should we ignore that here? Do you think we should stick with an outdated system?

We have to change the system at some point and some people will always feel aggrieved because they percieve themselves to be paying too much. But you're not, you're still paying in the same tax bracket as before.

Liam Byrne

bijapos wrote: »

So what exactly do you propose? Stick with the old system? Point is, when you bought the car you knew how much tax it would cost, you would have factored this in along with a lot of other things in buying the car. Its not as if they've doubled the tax on your car.

They have, however, raised it, and raised other motoring-related taxes and charges too, thereby increasing the overall tax on the car. So no, you didn't know how much tax it would cost.

bijapos wrote: »

We have to change the system at some point and some people will always feel aggrieved because they percieve themselves to be paying too much. But you're not, you're still paying in the same tax bracket as before.

So if you are currently paying €4,000 in income tax, and someone on €500,000 a year is paying €120,000; and then they decide to change the tax bracket so that they pay only €100,000 while ensuring you can't avail of that, you wouldn't complain ?

After all, you'd still be paying the same amount, right ?

changes

bijapos wrote: »

Sounds right, theres two versions of the 1.9 one has 101bhp 151g/km its class C, the other has 130 bhp 159g/km , class D.

So what exactly do you propose? Stick with the old system? Point is, when you bought the car you knew how much tax it would cost, you would have factored this in along with a lot of other things in buying the car. Its not as if they've doubled the tax on your car.

Like I said in an earlier post car manufacturers are putting billions into reducing emissions, why should we ignore that here? Do you think we should stick with an outdated system?

We have to change the system at some point and some people will always feel aggrieved because they percieve themselves to be paying too much. But you're not, you're still paying in the same tax bracket as before.

I always felt we were paying too much....

Has anyone any info on the other EU countries. I'd hazard a guess that none of them have someone driving an 04 passat paying 4 times the road thax than someone driving a 08 one.... thats just a bit irish!!

bijapos

Liam Byrne wrote: »

They have, however, raised it, and raised other motoring-related taxes and charges too, thereby increasing the overall tax on the car. So no, you didn't know how much tax it would cost.

I think its a well known fact that motor tax goes up regularly, has done so for the last couple of decades.

So if you are currently paying €4,000 in income tax, and someone on €500,000 a year is paying €120,000; and then they decide to change the tax bracket so that they pay only €100,000 while ensuring you can't avail of that, you wouldn't complain ?

After all, you'd still be paying the same amount, right

Right. Same way I wouldn't complain if it went up.

Padraig Mor

Is this a good time to mention that a whole heap of Mercedes qualify for €156 per year tax?!