Terracing to return?

Xavi6

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/lib-dems-call-for-return-to-safe-standing-on-terraces-1950535.html

Lib Dems call for return to 'safe' standing on terraces

Controversial policy pledge revealed to The Independent gains support from hundreds of thousands of fans

As Gordon Brown, David Cameron and Nick Clegg prepare for tonight's second televised election debate, the Liberal Democrats are again presenting themselves as agents of change, this time in the sporting arena, by announcing their desire for the return of "safe standing" at football grounds.

In an interview with The Independent today, Don Foster, spokesman for culture, media and sport, commits to investigating whether the insistence on all-seater stadiums in the top two English football divisions could safely be brought to an end.

The issue is extremely popular with many fans who see it as a way to combat escalating ticket prices and resurrect the atmosphere stands enjoyed before 1994, when all-seater stadiums became compulsory. The call will be controversial with other fans groups, however, who maintain that in the light of the Hillsborough disaster – the 21st anniversary of which was marked last week – a return to standing should be opposed on safety grounds.

Foster states: "The Liberal Democrats are committed to exploring options for introducing safe standing at football grounds in consultation with fans, clubs and safety experts and have passed a motion at our party conference to this effect. The evidence from countries like Germany shows that safe standing can operate effectively and safely to give fans more choice about how they enjoy the game."

The Liberal Democrats tabled a conference motion on safe standing in 2008, when Foster said: "This is a sensitive issue. But we cannot ignore the large numbers of fans who want to stand."

The Taylor Report into the Hillsborough tragedy, in which 96 fans died, cited errant policing, poor stadium design and bad sign-posting as key factors, and added that standing was not intrinsically unsafe. The report led to a raft of safety regulations that heralded the all-seater stadiums synonymous with the Premier League era.

The move to "safe standing" is not to be dismissed as an election issue. It is important to fans groups and the Football Supporters' Federation, a national umbrella group with 176,000 members, has actively campaigned for the re-introduction of standing at Premier League grounds for years.

The FSF points to European grounds with big, cheap and safe standing areas, like the 24,000-people terrace at Borussia Dortmund, and a terrace at Klagenfurt in Austria in a stadium built for Euro 2008. New stadiums in the United States also have standing, like a 2,500-people standing area opened this season at Dick's Sporting Goods Park, home of the Colorado Rapids, owned by Stan Kroenke, a major shareholder at Arsenal. The Rapids' standing area "was introduced at the request of supporters" say the club, and is the first of its kind in a major American sports league.

Steven Powell, the FSF's director of policy told The Independent last night: "Standing isn't a nostalgic 20th century throwback. It's the future. Look at Germany, Austria, the US and Canada. It's a choice that fans want, including those who prefer to sit. It's safe and it's inclusive. To maintain the ban in the face of the evidence is illogical, arrogant and perverse."

All-seater stadiums retain the firm support of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, which states: "There's no such thing as safe standing." The Government remains opposed to the reintroduction of standing.

As Gerry Sutcliffe, minister for sport and tourism, tells The Independent today: "There have been dramatic improvements in safety and Germany is a case in point but the practicalities of re-profiling new stadiums plus the cost would be a huge issue. It would need a dramatic shift in football authority opinion backed by clear evidence before government would look at supporting any change to existing policy."

So what do we think? Good idea? I'd love it to be back.

redout

its done in the Bundesliga so why not ?

It will never be allowed in UEFA club comps I wouldnt have thought.

Neil3030

No

I always thought it odd we could put a man on the moon, but couldn't design an enclosure of tiered steps that could house a few thousand people without risking a disaster.

Surely it's possible.

~Rebel~

No

Safe Standing ftw!

gustavo

No it would ruin our game


Oh wait

Mr Alan

No

great idea. safe terracing should be easily achievable in this day and age.

LuckyLloyd

Don't care

Meh, this will be received positively by football fans everywhere but I shall remain solidly against it. Implementing the recommendations in the Taylor report held a wider symbolic significance for English football in the aftermath of Hillsborough and a particularly grim decade as far as the match going experience up and down the UK was concerned. Football has undoubtedly been sanitised in the UK as a result of those changes, but I find it impossible to argue that the overall shift in how the game is supported is not a positive one on balance. And given that the Hillsborough incident itself remains unresolved in the eyes of many who were most strongly affected by it, doing this now would smack of a certain amount of forgetfulness and disrespect in my view.

Boggles

Don't care

Why take the chance?

Seating in England has 100% safety record. Standing hasn't.

Ridiculous idea, and quite simple an attempt to get cheap votes.

Neil3030

No

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Meh, this will be received positively by football fans everywhere but I shall remain solidly against it. Implementing the recommendations in the Taylor report held a wider symbolic significance for English football in the aftermath of Hillsborough and a particularly grim decade as far as the match going experience up and down the UK was concerned. Football has undoubtedly been sanitised in the UK as a result of those changes, but I find it impossible to argue that the overall shift in how the game is supported is not a positive one on balance. And given that the Hillsborough incident itself remains unresolved in the eyes of many who were most strongly affected by it, doing this now would smack of a certain amount of forgetfulness and disrespect in my view.

Surely time has moved on though. Not to be dismissing the Hillsborough disaster as irrelevant history, but society, technology, law enforcement and engineering practices have come on in such leaps and bounds since 1989.

I don't think the symbolic significance of the Taylor report would be in any way lessened by revisiting the issue of terraces today, considering the progress society has made since.

pickarooney

Hooligans standing = bad
Non-hooligans sitting = bad
Non-hooligans standing = good?

Or does standing turn the law-abiding citizen into a monster?

Neil3030

No

pickarooney wrote: »

Hooligans standing = bad
Non-hooligans sitting = bad
Non-hooligans standing = good?

Or does standing turn the law-abiding citizen into a monster?

Well there aren't too many crimes you can commit while sitting down to be fair.

Internet fraud, maybe.

_blank_

No

Boggles wrote: »

an attempt to get cheap votes.

Plainly what it is, yes.

But, I never really sit down at football anyway, apart from half time if I don't go in the bar.

Boggles

Don't care

Des wrote: »

Plainly what it is, yes.

But, I never really sit down at football anyway, apart from half time if I don't go in the bar.

Knew it sounded familiar.

"But despite Tony Blair and other senior Labour politicians saying they were in favour of the idea when in opposition, they changed their position when in power."

As I said cheap votes.

It's not really about sitting down, it's about the safetly of having your own space.

pickarooney

Divil a one.

Mr Alan

No

Boggles wrote: »

Knew it sounded familiar.

"But despite Tony Blair and other senior Labour politicians saying they were in favour of the idea when in opposition, they changed their position when in power."

As I said cheap votes.

It's not really about sitting down, it's about the safetly of having your own space.

The models used in some other european leagues where there standing areas is that you still have a numbered space assigned to you as far as i know.

~Rebel~

No

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well there aren't too many crimes you can commit while sitting down to be fair.

Internet fraud, maybe.

Hmmm....and internet fraud HAS increased exponentially since enforced seating has come in....ergo internet fraud is a direct result of all seater stadiums!

QED.

Boggles

Don't care

Mr Alan wrote: »

The models used in some other european leagues where there standing areas is that you still have a numbered space assigned to you as far as i know.

Haha.

A number chalked on the ground like?

If a goal went in you could end up 40 yards from your assigned space. How would you find it again?

~Rebel~

No

Boggles wrote: »

Haha.

A number chalked on the ground like?

If a goal went in you could end up 40 yards from your assigned space. How would you find it again?

GPS.

invinciblePRSTV

People stand in the PL as is anyways, even though there is narky elf & safe tee types present ready to prosecute the club as Villa have found out in recent seasons, but putting in terracing to house the 'core' supporters is a must.

Standing means a way better atmosphere & cheaper tickets. The Taylor report was needed to bring English footballs crumbling stadia into the modern era but completely abolishing terracing was throwing the baby out with the dishwater.

Mr Alan

No

Boggles wrote: »

Haha.

A number chalked on the ground like?

If a goal went in you could end up 40 yards from your assigned space. How would you find it again?

Works fairly well in Germany. Don't think there'd be that much movement-especially with barriers throughout spread throughout the terrace to try and minimise that.

Paul Tergat

I think that it would make for much better atmospheres (hate being told to sit down at Old Trafford) but for safety reasons I would prefer it not to come back I guess. Just not worth the risk imo

Neil3030

No

All you need to do is section off the terrace, to prevent too big a body of people entering one area. You then put lateral barriers every 5 or 6 steps to prevent forward surges.

Bobs your teapot.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No

I'd love it to return, I way prefer standing at football, tbh. Way better craic and atmosphere.

Boggles

Don't care

Mr Alan wrote: »

Works fairly well in Germany.

So does 24 hour bars. Doesn't mean it would work elsewhere.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Don't think there'd be that much movement-especially with barriers throughout spread throughout the terrace to try and minimise that.

When watching a football match and something happens instinctively you move forward. It's a fact. Seating prevents this.

A whole generation grew up without terraces, but the polls suggest 90%+ of football fans want them back. Doesn't make sense.

If the government or government elect are serious about getting "atmosphere" and young fans back into the stadia, they should offer tax breaks or incentives in exchange for a lower priced block ticket program.

Can't see that happening some how.

therecklessone

No

Des wrote: »

Plainly what it is, yes.

I know we live in a cynical age, but isn't it just the teeniest bit possible that the Lib Dems have listened to football supporters (the FSF and other fans organisations have campaigned for the reintroduction of terracing for ages) and actually responded to their concerns?

On a general note, isn't it also the case that while Taylor concluded that all-seater stadiums are safer, that terracing is in itself not intrinsically unsafe? If it was, why is there no all-seater requirement below the Championship?

dfx-

Don't care

No..no need. A relaxation on people standing in seated areas is more needed.

Coillte_Bhoy

Boggles wrote: »

So does 24 hour bars. Doesn't mean it would work elsewhere.



When watching a football match and something happens instinctively you move forward. It's a fact. Seating prevents this.

A whole generation grew up without terraces, but the polls suggest 90%+ of footballs want them back. Doesn't make sense.

If the government or government elect are serious about getting "atmosphere" and young fans back into the stadia, they should offer tax breaks or incentives in exchange for a lower priced block ticket program.

Can't see that happening some how.

Do you actually go to many matches?? The vast majority of regular fans want a return to terracing.

therecklessone

No

dfx- wrote: »

No..no need. A relaxation on people standing in seated areas is more needed.

Who gets priority, the bloke standing when he should be sitting, or the one behind who can't see through him when they want to sit down?

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No

dfx- wrote: »

No..no need. A relaxation on people standing in seated areas is more needed.

This would solve a lot of the problems, I hate being told to sit down whenever I'm in OT.

missingtime

Lazy-boys ftw!

Good idea if done correctly but as a few have already mentioned it's only a way to get a few votes.

Nothing will probably come of it.

I alao hate sitting at a match, fcuking hate it.

LETS BE AVN IT

No

We have terracing in GAA grounds here so why not in the PL , imagine a proper atmosphere it be like a cup final .

ilovelamp2000

No

therecklessone wrote: »

I know we live in a cynical age, but isn't it just the teeniest bit possible that the Lib Dems have listened to football supporters (the FSF and other fans organisations have campaigned for the reintroduction of terracing for ages) and actually responded to their concerns?

On a general note, isn't it also the case that while Taylor concluded that all-seater stadiums are safer, that terracing is in itself not intrinsically unsafe? If it was, why is there no all-seater requirement below the Championship?

It was the case, most people wouldn't have read the report though (and it's quite long so I don't blame them).
Getting rid of terracing was the easiest solution available to Taylor, and he was under pressure to find one.

Terracing is safely used in plenty of places, how many of us have been on Hill 16 or the terraces at Lansdowne Road without incident ?

Thankfully we have Gardai who are experienced enough to know how to manage the public at a match /event.

Dont be at yourself

No

It can be introduced so it is safe. Barriers every five or six steps and a strict ticketing and admittance policy would go a long way. Stadiums wouldn't have to become all-standing stadiums. Designate one stand or one tier for terracing, and let those who want to sit, sit.

A nice side effect would be that clubs wouldn't have to mortgage themselves up to the eyeballs to move to bigger and better stadiums - capacity could be safely increased overnight.

OPENROAD

Don't care

But do the clubs themselves really want to go back to terracing?


Personally hope we never see the return to terracing.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

But do the clubs themselves really want to go back to terracing?

No, and that more than anything will kill any initiative along these lines.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

No, and that more than anything will kill any initiative along these lines.

Exactly clubs more than happy with the way things are now.

applehunter

No

I rarely sit down at matches if ever.

Spoiled my Anfield experience having stewards telling me to sit down etc..

GLaDOS

No

Never sit for matches either, one of the few advantages of having a poorly supported league

Boggles

Don't care

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Do you actually go to many matches?? The vast majority of regular fans want a return to terracing.

It says it in my post. 90% + want terraces back?

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

I know we live in a cynical age, but isn't it just the teeniest bit possible that the Lib Dems have listened to football supporters (the FSF and other fans organisations have campaigned for the reintroduction of terracing for ages) and actually responded to their concerns?

No chance.

Here is another of their election promises

"Help protect children and young people from developing negative body images by regulating airbrushing in adverts”

How?

flahavaj

Don't care

LETS BE AVN IT wrote: »

We have terracing in GAA grounds here so why not in the PL , imagine a proper atmosphere it be like a cup final .

GAA fans know how to behave and intermingle freely at matches.

Boggles

Don't care

25th anniversary of this next month.

Like all major tragedies there is mitigating factors and of course this is as extreme as it gets.

25 years is not that long ago and this is one of the reasons health and safety is taken so seriously when you have 50,000+ people coming together in a relatively small place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EpPgsR2U7s&feature=related

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

25th anniversary of this next month.

Like all major tragedies there is mitigating factors and of course this is as extreme as it gets.

25 years is not that long ago and this is one of the reasons health and safety is taken so seriously when you have 50,000+ people coming together in a relatively small place.

You realise you've just linked to a fire that took place in an all-seated stand, don't you?

Spiritoftheseventies

Don't care

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Meh, this will be received positively by football fans everywhere but I shall remain solidly against it. Implementing the recommendations in the Taylor report held a wider symbolic significance for English football in the aftermath of Hillsborough and a particularly grim decade as far as the match going experience up and down the UK was concerned. Football has undoubtedly been sanitised in the UK as a result of those changes, but I find it impossible to argue that the overall shift in how the game is supported is not a positive one on balance. And given that the Hillsborough incident itself remains unresolved in the eyes of many who were most strongly affected by it, doing this now would smack of a certain amount of forgetfulness and disrespect in my view.

Agree 100 per cent with this

Dempsey

No

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

People stand in the PL as is anyways, even though there is narky elf & safe tee types present ready to prosecute the club as Villa have found out in recent seasons, but putting in terracing to house the 'core' supporters is a must.

Standing means a way better atmosphere & cheaper tickets. The Taylor report was needed to bring English footballs crumbling stadia into the modern era but completely abolishing terracing was throwing the baby out with the dishwater.

Agreed, the state of stadia in England coupled with the half baked ideas to combat hooliganism were the biggest contributing factors to the disaster.

Terracing would only be bad if crowd control was poor but that aspect is well managed in the UK these days

PHB

No

It'd be outstanding. As someone who constantly gets told to sit down when he's at Old Trafford, I'd be really happy for it. Atmosphere is so much better.

Paparazzo

No

I'd love it. Surely clubs would too, a chance to double the capacity of stands that change to terracing.

astrofool

It's the Lib Dems, if Liverpool was a potential swing vote, they'd be all for banning Americans from owning British football clubs.

Dempsey

No

Paparazzo wrote: »

I'd love it. Surely clubs would too, a chance to double the capacity of stands that change to terracing.

The likes of Man United wouldnt do a complete conversion because of the rules of European Competition. The top clubs would probably just convert one of the stands for the hardcore supporters that go everywhere to support their team.

ilovelamp2000

No

flahavaj wrote: »

GAA fans know how to behave and intermingle freely at matches.

What are you trying to say ?