Terracing to return?

_blank_

No

wobblyknees wrote: »

You pay for your ticket, get a nice comfy seat and if anyone stands up in front of you, you can moan about not being able to see the entertainment.

Happened at the last Ireland game I was at, something "exciting" happened and some clown behind me

"Here loike, sish dine would you roysh".

Fúck off back to a pub you imbecile

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

What was the average attendance for League one matches at the weekend?

Here are the averages for this season:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance?league=eng.3&seasontype=4&cc=5739

At Bradford there was a touch over 11k in attendance.

Boggles wrote: »

How many football disasters have Germany had where the police were directly blamed to have aggrevated the situation?

Have you been watching too much Ashes to Ashes? Policing and stewarding of football has changed exponentially since the late 80s.

Boggles wrote: »

Come off It, I'm not going down that road. They are nowhere near as bad as the english.

It is difficult to find figures for total arrests related to football disorder in Germany, perhaps a knowledge of the language would help me, so I have to rely on wikipedia. It yields some interesting results:

From 2007

All lower-league soccer matches in the eastern state of Saxony this weekend have been cancelled in response to the violence at last weekend's match in Leipzig, the German Soccer Federation announced Wednesday.

The unprecedented move concerns some 60 matches from the fifth division downwards, and comes as a reaction to the latest violent incidents around a Saxony cup game last weekend.

Some 800 soccer fans attacked a police contingent of 300 after a game between Lokomotiv Leipzig and Erzgebirge Aue II. Some 39 officers were injured and six hooligans temporarily detained.

300+ arrests when Germany met Poland in the 2006 World Cup.

40 Germans arrested in Slovenia in 2005:

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1531870,00.html

Prompting an apology from the DFB.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1701053,00.html

More of the same in Slovakia.

Seems you need to look beyond national stereotypes.

Boggles wrote: »

We are not talking about cars. We are talking about large congreations of people and the fact is seating limits the chances of crushing. No?

You offered the example of a death at a European concert this summer as a response to my question, I replied by highlighting the possibility of death in an RTA this weekend. Entirely relevant I would say.

Boggles

Don't care

keane2097 wrote: »

Typical - he makes a point about dampened atmospheres in grounds and you pick out the word "comfy" to have an argument about.

Do you really have nothing better to do?

It's very nice of you, but I'm sure the lad can fight his own battles.

I've already asked you about atmosphere at stadiums and how sanitised safe standing will improve that.

You side stepped.

In fact I have just spent the day arguing with a person whos main reason to bring Terraces back is because he thinks they are safer.

FFS!!!

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

What stadiums have you been in.

Usually the seating is hard plastic with a generic arse groove, the last thing I would describe it as is "Comfy".

Not that it matters, but I've been to stadiums in France, Spain, Greece, England and Ireland for example.

I'm not suggesting you get cinema seats, I'm pointing out it's like the cinema experience when going to a match nowadays.

I would love to see safe standing on the agenda and discussed, because it works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbs668WJr3Q

Mr.Nice Guy

Don't care

Personally I'm not a fan of terraces. Never liked them when watching Ireland at Lansdowne Road. My memories of it are scumbags hurling bottles at young kids and then getting into fights at the end of it. I longed for the seated section when I saw this sh*t.

If seats will lessen the chances of this happening then so be it. Unfortunately there is a thuggish element within football that lacks maturity and as such certain precautions will need to be taken to maximise security. I can understand this.

keane2097

No

Boggles wrote: »

I've already asked you about atmosphere at stadiums and how sanitised safe standing will improve that.

You side stepped.

What? Why is this important? I enjoy terraces more because I get more immersed in the atmosphere of the game if I'm standing up.

lol - side-step, it's just that it's super-unimportant.

Boggles wrote: »

In fact I have just spent the day arguing with a person whos main reason to bring Terraces back is because he thinks they are safer.

FFS!!!

I was being ironic.

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

The girl at the smashing pumkins concert wasn't killed because there was an emergency, She was crushed to death while the crowd surged.

Seating would have prevented this.

The concert not happening would have prevented this also.

Back in the mid 90s crowd control was negligible, and the girl in question died tragically because of a combination of inexperience (on behalf of a very young audience), crowd behaviour (specifically moshing) and inadequate provision to control the movement of bodies within the arena.

All have been addressed, stewarding at concerts is far more professional, access restrictions control crowd flows and restrictions on behaviour lessen risk considerably.

Learn - adapt.

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

Here are the averages for this season:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/stats/attendance?league=eng.3&seasontype=4&cc=5739

At Bradford there was a touch over 11k in attendance.

Isn't Bradford also an all seater stadium?

therecklessone wrote: »

It is difficult to find figures for total arrests related to football disorder in Germany, perhaps a knowledge of the language would help me, so I have to rely on wikipedia. It yields some interesting results:

Well it's not difficult to find figures for arrests relating to football in England. Like I already said, I'm not going down that route.

therecklessone wrote: »

You offered the example of a death at a European concert this summer as a response to my question, I replied by highlighting the possibility of death in an RTA this weekend. Entirely relevant I would say.

How is safety measures been introduced at concerts releated to an RTA?

In an RTA your usually travelling at speed in a lump of metal.

At a concert your listening to music and the least you expect is to be killed from crushing. Something that can be limited by all an seated venue.

Ush1

For the record, skiing is LETHAL! Well, I am on a set of skis anyway!:pac:

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

Isn't Bradford also an all seater stadium?

In the mid-80s it was not.

Boggles wrote: »

Well it's not difficult to find figures for arrests relating to football in England. Like I already said, I'm not going down that route.

You don't need to find them, I found them myself.

What might be good would be that you could provide empirical evidence to support your contention that "they are nowhere near as bad as the English." You've already gone down that road Boggles, you're just trying to reverse back up without anybody noticing...;)

Boggles wrote: »

How is safety measures been introduced at concerts releated to an RTA?

In an RTA your usually travelling at speed in a lump of metal.

At a concert your listening to music and the least you expect is to be killed from crushing. Something that can be limited by all an seated venue.

You're just not getting the concept of risk management are you?

I don't expect to die when I get into a car, but there is always the chance that it will happen.

I don't expect to die at a rock concert, and since the mid 90s have never felt at risk of that happening either. I was at AC/DC last year and I believe the post-gig transport system produced a few hairy moments, but that is more down to inadequate planning and crowd control than the inherent lack of safety related to large groups of people congregating together.

On that note, why is it that safety authorities worldwide approve of standing at music events? There will be a couple of hundred thousand at Glastonbury this year, why is that deemed safe?

therecklessone

No

Finally, and I must duck out to do some work...

Abstinence will ensure I avoid all manner of STIs, I prefer safe sex myself...;)

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

In the mid-80s it was not.

In the mid 80's it burnt down.

Whats your point?

therecklessone wrote: »

You don't need to find them, I found them myself.

What might be good would be that you could provide empirical evidence to support your contention that "they are nowhere near as bad as the English." You've already gone down that road Boggles, you're just trying to reverse back up without anybody noticing...;)

No thanks.

therecklessone wrote: »

You're just not getting the concept of risk management are you?

I don't expect to die when I get into a car, but there is always the chance that it will happen.

True. And If I hear on the radio tonight someone died in car crash I won't raise an eye lid.

If I hear someone died in a concert however, I will ask how and why.

therecklessone wrote: »

I don't expect to die at a rock concert, and since the mid 90s have never felt at risk of that happening either. I was at AC/DC last year and I believe the post-gig transport system produced a few hairy moments, but that is more down to inadequate planning and crowd control than the inherent lack of safety related to large groups of people congregating together.

On that note, why is it that safety authorities worldwide approve of standing at music events? There will be a couple of hundred thousand at Glastonbury this year, why is that deemed safe?

Couple of main reasons.

Football stadia in England is the standard now that all events should try and emulate. Again it has an impeccable safety record.

And the most obvious reason, A concert is not a football match.

Glastonbury was cancelled 10 years ago and the organisers heavily fined on health and safety grounds.

I imagine even with all the safety measures in place, there will be crushing and hospitalitionss like there is every year.

I can safely say this won't happen at either of the 2 tiers of English football this or next year.

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

Abstinence will ensure I avoid all manner of STIs, I prefer safe sex myself...;)

It's RSI you should be worried about.

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

In the mid 80's it burnt down.

Whats your point?



No thanks.




True. And If I hear on the radio tonight someone died in car crash I won't raise an eye lid.

If I hear someone died in a concert however, I will ask how and why.



Couple of main reasons.

Football stadia in England is the standard now that all events should try and emulate. Again it has an impeccable safety record.

And the most obvious reason, A concert is not a football match.

Glastonbury was cancelled 10 years ago and the organisers heavily fined on health and safety grounds.

I imagine even with all the safety measures in place, there will be crushing and hospitalitionss like there is every year.

I can safely say this won't happen at either of the 2 tiers of English football this or next year.

And I can safely say this would also be true if safe standing areas were introduced. The main difference being that the atmosphere would be a hell of a lot better, more often.

keane2097

No

Mr Alan wrote: »

Don't mention it x x

*the point is, you keep repeatadly saying that standing is dangerous at football, its not, you keep talking about crushes etc, they simply don't happen like you seem to be thinking they do. Presumably these crushes happen at moments of excitement during the game, so its certainly worth noting the model which you are praising as safer currently has people standing during exciting moments during a game. For example yesterday you cited how you'd get pushed forward when a goal when in which is potentially dangerous, well, you wouldn't, no more so than people do already when goals are scored.

qft

Boggles

Don't care

Mr Alan wrote: »

*the point is, you keep repeatadly saying that standing is dangerous at football, its not,

Not once did I say standing was dangerous at football.

Mr Alan wrote: »

you keep talking about crushes etc, they simply don't happen like you seem to be thinking they do. Presumably these crushes happen at moments of excitement during the game, so its certainly worth noting the model which you are praising as safer currently has people standing during exciting moments during a game. For example yesterday you cited how you'd get pushed forward when a goal when in which is potentially dangerous, well, you wouldn't, no more so than people do already when goals are scored.

The only time I mentioned crushes was at concerts, which happen and which kill people.

The model at football matches in England right now works. There is no disputing it.

The British Government, FIFA, UEFA, The Premier League, The Championship all agree the current setup is the safest.

Logic says more people in the grounds equals increased revenues, why aren't the clubs all over this trying to push through terraces?

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Not once did I say standing was dangerous at football.



The only time I mentioned crushes was at concerts, which happen and which kill people.

The model at football matches in England right now works. There is no disputing it.

The British Government, FIFA, UEFA, The Premier League, The Championship all agree the current setup is the safest.

Logic says more people in the grounds equals increased revenues, why aren't the clubs all over this trying to push through terraces?

Because the there are too many vested interests in the current brand.

Boggles

Don't care

wobblyknees wrote: »

Because the there are too many vested interests in the current brand.

Which are?

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Which are?

Any number of sponsors, and Sky.

keane2097

No

Boggles wrote: »

Which are?

I'd say it would just be too costly tbh.

Out of interest, if you don't think standing at games is dangerous why are you so against terraces? Is it just the logistical thing?

Boggles

Don't care

wobblyknees wrote: »

Any number of sponsors, and Sky.

Why would they be against terraces?

Boggles

Don't care

keane2097 wrote: »

I'd say it would just be too costly tbh.

Out of interest, if you don't think standing at games is dangerous why are you so against terraces? Is it just the logistical thing?

Personally because I think they are a throw back and an unnecessary reminder to the dark days of English football.

There a relic from a time that nearly saw the league I choose to support almost erased from existence.

Also because I don't think heavily santised and heavily policed "safe" standing areas will add any significant atmosphere to football grounds.

The setup right not is not broken, so why try fix it?

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

Also because I don't think heavily santised and heavily policed "safe" standing areas will add any significant atmosphere to football grounds.

What atmosphere does exists is usually created by people who currently stand in all-seater accommodation. Under current regulations they risk expulsion from stadiums and/or confiscation of season tickets/club memberships.

Almost every ground I have visited away WHL we have stood for the entire game (exceptions being Bolton and Boro) while almost every club that comes to Spurs will have large numbers of their own fans standing throughout the game.

Anyone who regularly attends PL games who posts here will tell you the same.

Coillte_Bhoy

Boggles wrote: »

Not once did I say standing was dangerous at football.



The British Government, FIFA, UEFA, The Premier League, The Championship all agree the current setup is the safest.
Logic says more people in the grounds equals increased revenues, why aren't the clubs all over this trying to push through terraces?

So what?? Mpost fans want it back. Surely we are on the side of the fans and not the bloody govt or governing bodies??

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

What atmosphere does exists is usually created by people who currently stand in all-seater accommodation. Under current regulations they risk expulsion from stadiums and/or confiscation of season tickets/club memberships.

But as I'm sure you are aware there are very good reasons for this.

A culture was spawned from the terraces of football matches in the 70s and 80s in England. A poisonous epidemic which nearly led to top level football as I knew it becoming extinct.

Why take the chance and leave a window open so it can crawl back in. It still exists today in Turkey and Italy, In England at the moment the social conditions are pefect for a respawn in this sort of behaviour again.

The lack of atmosphere at matches is sometimes a bummer, but I think this is more to do with the globalisation of the league and more so the type of fan that attend football matches now, the remit was to get the family back into football grounds.

It's not ideal, but it's a shíté load better than what it has evolved from.

Boggles

Don't care

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

So what?? Mpost fans want it back. Surely we are on the side of the fans and not the bloody govt or governing bodies??

I admire your gusto and I'm with you 110%.

Unfortunately the world I live in doesn't operate like that.

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Why would they be against terraces?

I didn't say they would, i am suggesting that there are vested interests in the current brand. There are far too many consumers making day trips who want to to sit in comfy seats, be entertained and spend money in the club shop on an anti glazer scarf.

Boggles wrote: »

Personally because I think they are a throw back and an unnecessary reminder to the dark days of English football.

There a relic from a time that nearly saw the league I choose to support almost erased from existence.

I dispute this. The reason football had problems was nothing to do with terraces. Have you not seen the Kop videos from the 60s? See any hooliganism there? The reason problems came about was due to poor policing, poor stadiums and a small minority of hooligans being allowed to attach themselves to football in general.

Boggles wrote: »

Also because I don't think heavily santised and heavily policed "safe" standing areas will add any significant atmosphere to football grounds.

Heavily sanitised? Are you serious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbs668WJr3Q

Boggles wrote: »

The setup right not is not broken, so why try fix it?

The setup is broken. The genuine regular match going fans are being ripped off due to the escalating 'brand' prices whilst the day trippers sit there waiting to be entertained.

therecklessone wrote: »

What atmosphere does exists is usually created by people who currently stand in all-seater accommodation. Under current regulations they risk expulsion from stadiums and/or confiscation of season tickets/club memberships.

Almost every ground I have visited away WHL we have stood for the entire game (exceptions being Bolton and Boro) while almost every club that comes to Spurs will have large numbers of their own fans standing throughout the game.

Anyone who regularly attends PL games who posts here will tell you the same.

This is it in a nutshell, fans are standing now in an unsafe way.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

What atmosphere does exists is usually created by people who currently stand in all-seater accommodation. Under current regulations they risk expulsion from stadiums and/or confiscation of season tickets/club memberships.

Almost every ground I have visited away WHL we have stood for the entire game (exceptions being Bolton and Boro) while almost every club that comes to Spurs will have large numbers of their own fans standing throughout the game.

Anyone who regularly attends PL games who posts here will tell you the same.

Can just speak for Arsenal, but at Arsenal fans do stand but only when the action of play is in a certain area, for the majority of the match they are seated, away fans in general, that tends to be a different story.

Boggles

Don't care

wobblyknees wrote: »

I didn't say they would, i am suggesting that there are vested interests in the current brand. There are far too many consumers making day trips who want to to sit in comfy seats, be entertained and spend money in the club shop on an anti glazer scarf.



I dispute this. The reason football had problems was nothing to do with terraces. Have you not seen the Kop videos from the 60s? See any hooliganism there? The reason problems came about was due to poor policing, poor stadiums and a small minority of hooligans being allowed to attach themselves to football in general.



Heavily sanitised? Are you serious?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbs668WJr3Q

The setup is broken. The genuine regular match going fans are being ripped off due to the escalating 'brand' prices whilst the day trippers sit there waiting to be entertained.



This is it in a nutshell, fans are standing now in an unsafe way.

See I knew it would descend into a xenophobic rant sooner or later.

I'm a "day tripper" (when I can) most people on here that attend matches are "day trippers".

Why, it's simple Geography. I can't help if I wasn't born and live in the shadow of the stadium of the team I support.

But I'm sure by the way you are talking you were.

Fair play to you, and I wish you well.

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

See I knew it would descend into a xenophobic rant sooner or later.

I'm a "day tripper" (when I can) most people on here that attend matches are "day trippers".

Why, it's simple Geography. I can't help if I wasn't born and live in the shadow of the stadium of the team I support.

But I'm sure by the way you are talking you were.

Fair play to you, and I wish you well.

What a load of rubbish. I couldn't care less how often you go to see a match. You've just sidestepped a perfectly logical and reasonable argument with excuses.

You know for a minute there, I thought we were having a proper discussion about safe standing areas which incidentally, are safe, and do help to improve the atmosphere, but which won't be brought in in the near future due to cost issues and the fact that there are so many vested interests in brand football.

End of story.

Boggles

Don't care

wobblyknees wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. I couldn't care less how often you go to see a match. You've just sidestepped a perfectly logical and reasonable argument with excuses.

Sorry there was nothing logical or reasonable about your arguement. Especially when you come up with beauties like "a small minority of hooligans". And the it descened into a rant about "day trippers" - Brilliant.

There were children been slaughtered at football matches for Christ sake.

There was nothing minor about it.

Thatcher set up a fúckíng War Commission to deal with the problem.

I recommend you read up on it a bit as I don't think you grasp how big a problem it actually was or where it stemmed from.

wobblyknees wrote: »

You know for a minute there, I thought we were having a proper discussion about safe standing areas which incidentally, are safe, and do help to improve the atmosphere, but which won't be brought in in the near future due to cost issues and the fact that there are so many vested interests in brand football.
End of story.

They have "safe standing" areas in Italy.

Google Roma v United 2007 and tell me if that looked safe?

Again why are these "vested interests" against terracing.

More people in the stadium = move revenue?

Explain please.

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

But as I'm sure you are aware there are very good reasons for this.

There were good reasons, they can be countered effectively now within a standing framework.

Boggles wrote: »

The lack of atmosphere at matches is sometimes a bummer, but I think this is more to do with the globalisation of the league and more so the type of fan that attend football matches now, the remit was to get the family back into football grounds.

The remit still is to make family attendance more attractive, the fact that people currently stand in seated accommodation works against that ideal. Give us safe standing areas, and allow fathers/mothers and their children watch games from the comfort of a seat without somebody standing in their eyesight.

By the way, in case I get accused of basing my argument on family-friendly policies, I'm not...but it is a nice by product.

I'd also say that the entire package of changes over the last 15 years has lead to the gentrification of stadiums, and that is directly responsible for the lack of atmosphere.

OPENROAD wrote: »

Can just speak for Arsenal, but at Arsenal fans do stand but only when the action of play is in a certain area, for the majority of the match they are seated, away fans in general, that tends to be a different story.

Any time I've been to the Emirates fans have stood for large parts of the game, albeit it the blocks nearest the Spurs fans, so perhaps it is only when we visit? The block immediately to the left of the away accommodation as one looks at the pitch was full of standing staff when I was there for the 2-1 defeat under Ramos, that was the game I was closest and can definitely say it was the case.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

Any time I've been to the Emirates fans have stood for large parts of the game, albeit it the blocks nearest the Spurs fans, so perhaps it is only when we visit? The block immediately to the left of the away accommodation as one looks at the pitch was full of standing staff when I was there for the 2-1 defeat under Ramos, that was the game I was closest and can definitely say it was the case.

I have a fairly good view of the whole stadium from where I sit, on the whole people tend to sit, yes people stand from time to time, if it is persistent standing, the stewards get people to sit.

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

Again why are these "vested interests" against terracing.

More people in the stadium = move revenue?

Explain please.

There are two primary reasons why clubs are not pushing for change in this regard:

1. The capital cost of stadium redevelopment.
2. The type of people who wish to stand at football in the UK are endured by clubs rather than embraced. We do not buy tat in club shops, we do not buy programmes, we don't buy insurance from Endsleigh in conjunction with our clubs, we don't buy over-priced food (we might manage a beer ), we arrive late, we curse, we sing bold songs, some of us smoke, we piss in the deep end. :pac:

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

I'd also say that the entire package of changes over the last 15 years has lead to the gentrification of stadiums, and that is directly responsible for the lack of atmosphere.

.

Not a bad thing imo.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

There are two primary reasons why clubs are not pushing for change in this regard:

1. The capital cost of stadium redevelopment.
2. The type of people who wish to stand at football in the UK are endured by clubs rather than embraced. We do not buy tat in club shops, we do not buy programmes, we don't buy insurance from Endsleigh in conjunction with our clubs, we don't buy over-priced food (we might manage a beer ), we arrive late, we curse, we sing bold songs, some of us smoke, we piss in the deep end. :pac:

Spot on, this is the reason you will not see a return to terracing.

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry there was nothing logical or reasonable about your arguement. Especially when you come up with beauties like "a small minority of hooligans". And the it descened into a rant about "day trippers" - Brilliant.

It wasn't a rant about day trippers but a rant about the brand and why it's difficult to change.

Boggles wrote: »

There were children been slaughtered at football matches for Christ sake.

There was nothing minor about it.

Thatcher set up a fúckíng War Commission to deal with the problem.

Nothing like a bit of Daily Mail style sensationalism to prove a point eh?

Boggles wrote: »

They have "safe standing" areas in Italy.

Google Roma v United 2007 and tell me if that looked safe?

Yes they do, but not for that match. In fact the problems with that match were arguably more to do with poor policing and absolutely nothing to do with safe standing areas. This is a fan tearing up a seat that night:

Boggles wrote: »

Again why are these "vested interests" against terracing.

More people in the stadium = move revenue?

Explain please.

I've already explained, just read back over the last few posts.

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

They have "safe standing" areas in Italy.

Google Roma v United 2007 and tell me if that looked safe?

It is worth saying that the disorder that occurred in Sevilla around the same time was in a seated section of the stadium as well.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

No

I've been in OT four times, three times I've had a clear view of the away section, City twice and Liverpool once, the away fans stood for all of the game.

When United were away at Blackburn(I think, could be wrong) a few weeks ago the commentator said that a section of seats were closed in the away end because United fans always stand and directly refuse to sit down when told.

Mitch Connor

No

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry there was nothing logical or reasonable about your arguement. Especially when you come up with beauties like "a small minority of hooligans". And the it descened into a rant about "day trippers" - Brilliant.

There were children been slaughtered at football matches for Christ sake.

There was nothing minor about it.

Thatcher set up a fúckíng War Commission to deal with the problem.

I recommend you read up on it a bit as I don't think you grasp how big a problem it actually was or where it stemmed from.



They have "safe standing" areas in Italy.

Google Roma v United 2007 and tell me if that looked safe?

The issue I have is there are two seperate arguments you are merging together to fit as you like.

You mention the Roma - United fan trouble.

That has NOTHING to do with standing or seating - that was to do with fan behavior. Standing or seating would not matter, people intent on violence or animosity will do so regardless of whether they are seated or not.

The War Commision was set up to deal with the hooligan problem. Again, they were not set up to get people to sit down. Getting the hooligans to sit down did not make them all nice and respectful. It was better crowd control, policing, banning orders and a coordinated effort between the police and the clubs to stop this stuff happening in the stands. the seating/standing issue is separate. Sure the violence still happens - look at Millwall vs West Ham - fully seated.

Hell, go back and look at the Ireland England game - the england fans that caused the problems were SEATED in Lansdowne. Did that stop them from kicking off that night? No. Why, because seating/standing was not the problem or the solution. The problem was a bunch of people intent on violence, regardless of how they were housed in the stadium. In fact, if they had been in a terraced area, they wouldn't have had chairs to rip up and use as missiles.

Standing does NOT equal hooliganism. Seating does NOT equal civilised behavior. It is not black and white.

As for people getting crushed at concerts - they are not policed in the same way as matches, the standing areas are not designed as they now are in soccer. It is not the same.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

Not a bad thing imo.

OPENROAD wrote: »

Spot on, this is the reason you will not see a return to terracing.

How many families do you think made the trek from North London to Manchester last Saturday for the 12:45 kickoff? I wouldn't be so quick to welcome the demise of the "traditional" fan when they are the most likely to endure sh1te conditions, sh1te football and sh1te treatment from police, football authorities and broadcasters.

baz2009 wrote: »

I've been in OT four times, three times I've had a clear view of the away section, City twice and Liverpool once, the away fans stood for all of the game.

When United were away at Blackburn(I think, could be wrong) a few weeks ago the commentator said that a section of seats were closed in the away end because United fans always stand and directly refuse to sit down when told.

United have had their allocation reduced at most grounds because of persistent standing.

Paparazzo

No

Just because a stadium has seats doesn't mean there can't be an accident. It's happened at a few stadiums around the world. Bad police are the problem, not terracing.

Boggles, surely you can see terraces can be perfectly safe. At Hilllsborough, all that was needed was no fence (nasty hillsborough pic)at the front of the terrace and there would have been no crush. Simple! The knee-jerk reaction of banning terracing was the Joe Duffy Liveline type solution to ban everything, look like we're doing something and keep everyone happy.

keane2097

No

This "trouble in the terraces" line of reasoning can again be summed up very succinctly as follows:

hooligans in terrace = problem
normal people in terrace != problem

ban hooligans = solution
ban terraces != solution

Clanket

No

Boggles wrote: »

25th anniversary of this next month.

Like all major tragedies there is mitigating factors and of course this is as extreme as it gets.

25 years is not that long ago and this is one of the reasons health and safety is taken so seriously when you have 50,000+ people coming together in a relatively small place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EpPgsR2U7s&feature=related

Never seen that before. Truly shocking

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

How many families do you think made the trek from North London to Manchester last Saturday for the 12:45 kickoff? I wouldn't be so quick to welcome the demise of the "traditional" fan when they are the most likely to endure sh1te conditions, sh1te football and sh1te treatment from police, football authorities and broadcasters.

But conditions are not poor anymore, I do agree with you re the early kick offs which should be done away with imo.

As for poor treatment from the police, I don't agree, they are there to do a job and do an excellent job and are very courteous from my experience.

ilovelamp2000

No

Boggles wrote: »

Does it meet Fifa and Uefa rules?

Can you name two stadiums in Europe that comply with all of UEFA's safety guidelines ?

OPENROAD

Don't care

Paparazzo wrote: »

Just because a stadium has seats doesn't mean there can't be an accident. It's happened at a few stadiums around the world. Bad police are the problem, not terracing.

Boggles, surely you can see terraces can be perfectly safe. At Hilllsborough, all that was needed was no fence (nasty hillsborough pic)at the front of the terrace and there would have been no crush. Simple! The knee-jerk reaction of banning terracing was the Joe Duffy Liveline type solution to ban everything, look like we're doing something and keep everyone happy.

Would agree to an extent, and from an Arsenal point of view, I know we refused to put up fencing which cost us the opportunity to host FA cup semis if memory serves me correctly. That said I have spoken to many Gooners over the years who tell me it was pure luck that a serious incident had not taken place on the North Bank over the years.

But the whole getting rid of terraces wasn't just down to Hillsborough imo although of course it was the main reason, but football in England had gone through a terrible 10 years and Hillsborough sadly was the tradegy that meant soomething radical had to be done.

ilovelamp2000

No

Boggles wrote: »

If the Taylor report stated terraces were unequivocally safe, why was their major recommendations vehemently in favour of eradicating them?

Read the Taylor report for yourself Boggles.

It's abundantly clear that the all seater proposal was the easiest from a political point of view. The world and it's mother now knows that the problem at Hillsborough was awful decision making by the police in charge, and it wasn't helped by the design of the stadium.

wobblyknees

Alofthedunnes wrote: »

Never seen that before. Truly shocking

Yes, shocking, but nothing to do with standing in stadiums. The club was warned on numerous occasions that there was a build up of rubbish under the wooden stand. They ignored it and a flash fire occurred. I would argue if there were less seats in the way, fewer people would have died that day.

OPENROAD

Don't care

Thing is guys unless attendances significantly drop at Premiership grounds, it has zero chance of happening.