Terracing to return?

ilovelamp2000

No

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Personally I'm not a fan of terraces. Never liked them when watching Ireland at Lansdowne Road. My memories of it are scumbags hurling bottles at young kids and then getting into fights at the end of it. I longed for the seated section when I saw this sh*t.

If seats will lessen the chances of this happening then so be it. Unfortunately there is a thuggish element within football that lacks maturity and as such certain precautions will need to be taken to maximise security. I can understand this.

Hmmm ..... If I remember correctly the worst incident to happen in recent times at Lansdowne Road didn't involve the terraces, I think it involved the West Upper Stand seats though.

OPENROAD

Don't care

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Hmmm ..... If I remember correctly the worst incident to happen in recent times at Lansdowne Road didn't involve the terraces, I think it involved the West Upper Stand seats though.

Maybe if you are just including the UK and Ireland

However this was a very unique match imo, so wouldn't use this match as an example.

ilovelamp2000

No

Boggles wrote: »

But as I'm sure you are aware there are very good reasons for this.

A culture was spawned from the terraces of football matches in the 70s and 80s in England. A poisonous epidemic which nearly led to top level football as I knew it becoming extinct.

Why take the chance and leave a window open so it can crawl back in. It still exists today in Turkey and Italy, In England at the moment the social conditions are pefect for a respawn in this sort of behaviour again.

The lack of atmosphere at matches is sometimes a bummer, but I think this is more to do with the globalisation of the league and more so the type of fan that attend football matches now, the remit was to get the family back into football grounds.

It's not ideal, but it's a shíté load better than what it has evolved from.

So basically your entire argument is based on the false presumption that terraces = hooliganism.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

But conditions are not poor anymore, I do agree with you re the early kick offs which should be done away with imo.

By conditions I mean more than stadiums, I mean kickoff times, I mean the fact that Sky/ESPN did not confirm this weekend's TV scheduling until two weeks ago, and lots more.

OPENROAD wrote: »

As for poor treatment from the police, I don't agree, they are there to do a job and do an excellent job and are very courteous from my experience.

Never been stopped and searched under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994? Designed to allow police to search individuals for offensive weapons, it has been misused by police forces up and down the UK to photograph and take name/address details (neither of which is authorised under Section 60) of supporters with a view to building their intelligence database for the prevention of football disorder.

I know a guy who was stabbed by a Leicester fan on the way back 99 league Cup final (he was NOT involved in any disorder himself, just the victim of a scummy attack). He was later advised by a police officer in Haringey that his name and details were on their football disorder database.

What about misuse of Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006? http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/Watching-football-is-not-a-crime.php

I've seen some fantastic policing in my time, and some very good natured and common sense behaviour from police officers at games, but I have also been pushed out onto Tottenham High Rd. in front of moving traffic by pumped up robocops as I tried to make my way past the ground to meet mates for a drink after a North London derby.

Paparazzo

No

wobblyknees wrote: »

Yes, shocking, but nothing to do with standing in stadiums. The club was warned on numerous occasions that there was a build up of rubbish under the wooden stand. They ignored it and a flash fire occurred. I would argue if there were less seats in the way, fewer people would have died that day.

Don't forget the roof

The wooden roof, which was covered with tarpaulin and sealed with asphalt and bitumen

It was basically a giant firelighter.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

But the whole getting rid of terraces wasn't just down to Hillsborough imo although of course it was the main reason, but football in England had gone through a terrible 10 years and Hillsborough sadly was the tradegy that meant soomething radical had to be done.

There's a lot wrong, and a lot yet to be made right about the failure of authorities to answer for their failures on that tragic day, but I find it incredibly disrespectful that Thatcher's government used that tragedy to advance their own political agenda in relation to football disorder.

wobblyknees

therecklessone wrote: »

There's a lot wrong, and a lot yet to be made right about the failure of authorities to answer for their failures on that tragic day, but I find it incredibly disrespectful that Thatcher's government used that tragedy to advance their own political agenda in relation to football disorder.

Kind of ironic when you consider that it was originally suggested that the lib dems were looking to advance their own political agenda!

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

By conditions I mean more than stadiums, I mean kickoff times, I mean the fact that Sky/ESPN did not confirm this weekend's TV scheduling until two weeks ago, and lots more.



Never been stopped and searched under Section 60 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994? Designed to allow police to search individuals for offensive weapons, it has been misused by police forces up and down the UK to photograph and take name/address details (neither of which is authorised under Section 60) of supporters with a view to building their intelligence database for the prevention of football disorder.

I know a guy who was stabbed by a Leicester fan on the way back 99 league Cup final (he was NOT involved in any disorder himself, just the victim of a scummy attack). he was later advised by a police officer in Haringey that his name and details were on their football disorder database.

What about misuse of Section 27 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006? http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/Watching-football-is-not-a-crime.php

I've seen some fantastic policing in my time, and some very good natured and common sense behaviour from police officers at games, but I have also been pushed out onto Tottenham High Rd. in front of moving traffic by pumped up robocops as I tried to make my way past the ground to meet mates for a drink after a North London derby.

I've never once been stopped in all my years of going to matches by the police or have had any negative experience with them, on the very rare occasion and it is rare, that I have seen minor trouble, I leave the area asap.

wobblyknees

Paparazzo wrote: »

Don't forget the roof

It was basically a giant firelighter.

True. I was shown this video in detail on a fire safety course. Shocking stuff how people died that day.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

I've never once been stopped in all my years of going to matches by the police or have had any negative experience with them, on the very rare occasion and it is rare, that I have seen minor trouble, I leave the area asap.

Do you travel to away games by any chance?

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

There's a lot wrong, and a lot yet to be made right about the failure of authorities to answer for their failures on that tragic day, but I find it incredibly disrespectful that Thatcher's government used that tragedy to advance their own political agenda in relation to football disorder.

Listen even in the last ten years I have noticed great changes in grounds on match days even leaving out the daytrippers that frequent matches, things prior to Hillsborough were awful from what I have seen, people behaved like animals and sadly as a result ended up being treated like animals put into cages like animals in the zoo to watch matches. If people had behaved at matches in the late 70's 80's,we would not have had fencing and Hillsborough would not have happened, and we would not be having this converastion now.


For some back then a match day was to consume a large amounts of beer, smash up the special trains only to be placed on another train, fight on the terraces and around grounds, even take a piss on the terrace, ffs what sort of behaviour is that !! I certainly don't want this type of fan back. I sing at matches but can do so without using every swear word under the sun.

ilovelamp2000

No

therecklessone wrote: »

Do you travel to away games by any chance?

On this subject:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/apr/19/football-police-burnley-blackburn

Boggles

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

There are two primary reasons why clubs are not pushing for change in this regard:

1. The capital cost of stadium redevelopment.

But would the revenue from increased capacity not offset the cost?

therecklessone wrote: »

2. The type of people who wish to stand at football in the UK are endured by clubs rather than embraced. We do not buy tat in club shops, we do not buy programmes, we don't buy insurance from Endsleigh in conjunction with our clubs, we don't buy over-priced food (we might manage a beer ), we arrive late, we curse, we sing bold songs, some of us smoke, we piss in the deep end. :pac:

Reminds me of that famous Millwall chant.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

Do you travel to away games by any chance?

I tend to do the big games/big UK cities/semi finals/finals only.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

If people had behaved at matches Hillsborough would not have happened and we would not be having this converastion now

:eek:

Expected better.

OPENROAD

Don't care

therecklessone wrote: »

:eek:

Expected better.

Maybe I should clarify that point, I'm saying that if people had behaved in the late 70's, early mid 80's, we would not have had fencing at grounds, would you not agree? If we had no fencing at grounds, even though there were huge mistakes nade on the day at Hillsborough, fans would not have been crushed, cause we would not have fences, would you not agree?

OPENROAD

Don't care

Boggles wrote: »

But would the revenue from increased capacity not offset the cost?

.

Cheaper prices though, so might be much of a muchness.

therecklessone

No

Boggles wrote: »

But would the revenue from increased capacity not offset the cost?

Perhaps, but only if they were approved for a significant increase over and above existing capacities. I don't think they would be though.

Boggles wrote: »

Reminds me of that famous Millwall chant.

It's tongue in cheek for added effect Boggles, but a lot of it is true. I spend the cost of my season ticket at Spurs, and maybe a half-time beer. Wouldn't they prefer a one-match-a season punter who visits the club shop, spends a fortune, and won't offend anybody in any way.

Sure they can pip in crowd sounds for the benefit of Sky :P

I'm bowing out now chaps, long day tomorrow and tbh we're not going to agree on anything so what's the point? Night.

Boggles

Don't care

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Read the Taylor report for yourself Boggles.

It's abundantly clear that the all seater proposal was the easiest from a political point of view. The world and it's mother now knows that the problem at Hillsborough was awful decision making by the police in charge, and it wasn't helped by the design of the stadium.

I have read alot of it.

It's worth noting that The Taylor report wasn't just commissioned to deal with the Hilsborough disaster.

English football was in the gutter, major change was needed, the national side was facing expulsion from major tournaments. Thatcher was going to shut the whole thing down.

Events like Heysel almost killed football in England with alot of the top players moving abroad.

The taylor report was about changing the culture of football.

A culture which has been almost eradicated from England, but still exist in some for in other top European leagues. Namely La Liga.

Edit: Sorry ment the Italian League, not La Liga.

therecklessone

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

Maybe I should clarify that point

Sorry, misunderstood you as you copped readily enough. Thanks for clarification.

OPENROAD

Don't care

Boggles wrote: »

I have read alot of it.

It's worth noting that The Taylor report wasn't just commissioned to deal with the Hilsborough disaster.

English football was in the gutter, major change was needed, the national side was facing expulsion from major tournaments. Thatcher was going to shut the whole thing down.

Events like Heysel almost killed football in England with alot of the top players moving abroad.

The taylor report was about changing the culture of football.

A culture which has been almost eradicated from England, but still exist in some for in other top European leagues. Namely La Liga.

Spot on, I think people are either too young or don't remember how bad things actually were back then.

Boggles

Don't care

Rosco1982 wrote: »

So basically your entire argument is based on the false presumption that terraces = hooliganism.

No. I'm not basing my entire arguement on that at all.

Mr Alan

No

but things were not that way due to the fact people stood when they went to the match. ****, i've bowed out of this thread. . . .*runs away*

Mitch Connor

No

OPENROAD wrote: »

Spot on, I think people are either too young or don't remember how bad things actually were back then.

but were terraces the problem? That is what is being discussed. I am 100% in agreement that football has come a long way in the last 20 years. the standard of behavior at games is much higher and the incidents of trouble much fewer and better managed.

However, I think that could all stay the same with properly designed, implemented and managed Safe Standing areas.

The biggest and most benificial changes to football were in crowd control, stadium entry/exit design and policing. Not simply the implementation of 100% seating.

Boggles

Don't care

Mitch Connor wrote: »

but were terraces the problem? That is what is being discussed. I am 100% in agreement that football has come a long way in the last 20 years. the standard of behavior at games is much higher and the incidents of trouble much fewer and better managed.

However, I think that could all stay the same with properly designed, implemented and managed Safe Standing areas.

The biggest and most benificial changes to football were in crowd control, stadium entry/exit design and policing. Not simply the implementation of 100% seating.

Every subsequent Bill, Report, Act since all have a common theme, doing away with terraces was the right thing to do. The Sports Minister last week reaffirmed this.

I have read a good bit on "Herd Behavior". It is quite scary stuff even scarier because there is no logical accepted explanations to why it occurs.

When your dealing with something as unpredictable as a mass congreation of people, over zealous policy works. Seated arena works.

OPENROAD

Don't care

Mitch Connor wrote: »

but were terraces the problem? That is what is being discussed. I am 100% in agreement that football has come a long way in the last 20 years. the standard of behavior at games is much higher and the incidents of trouble much fewer and better managed.

However, I think that could all stay the same with properly designed, implemented and managed Safe Standing areas.

The biggest and most benificial changes to football were in crowd control, stadium entry/exit design and policing. Not simply the implementation of 100% seating.

The fencing was imo, but at time something radical needed to be done to clean up football and all seater stadiums was the answer with more expensive admission prices with seated restaurants in the concourse, a live music band before each match, which means you have a different type of supporter now.

CiaranC

No

As much as we would all like to see a return to terracing, I dont think it fits in with the target audience the EPL is trying to attract these days to their 80 quid tickets. Maybe if each railing had a little tray to hold the discerning fans cappucino and prawn sandwich, and a little hook to hang their overnight bag

Soby

If dublin people ( of all people) can manage it on hill 16 surely the rest of the world can :P

_blank_

No

Soby wrote: »

If dublin people ( of all people) can manage it on hill 16 surely the rest of the world can :P

You can't compare Soccer to GAA

CiaranC

No

Des wrote: »

You can't compare Soccer to GAA

Seems to be a lot of this going on lately. Comparing Auntie Mary and Uncle Seamus heading up to the big shmoke with the tae and sangwiches a couple of times a year to those nutters I saw from Spurs last time I was at Fulham is a bit mental

Davidth88

No

I would love terracing to return .

I went to footie during the late 70's and 80's ( a lot ) , we truly don't want to return to those days where the police treated all fans who were going to football as criminals .

You had the Thatcher Gvmt , and that horrible Colin Moynihan with the stupid membership schemes , and the Luton Millwall game etc , all this went on .

Then of course the whole game changed because of Hillsborough .

Football is a much nicer place to go to now , but for sure has lost some atmosphere

I am sure well designed terracing , WITHOUT FENCING , would work.

I haven't been to many games this decade , because I moved to Ireland, and family commitments , I don't know what policing is like , I read stupid stories like the ' closed games '

This is where the away fans HAVE to travel from a certain point , so you had the stupid situation where a Burnley fan who lived across the road from the Blackburn ground had to travel to Burnley , then get on a coach to attend the Blackburn V Burnley game

So maybe the police have not fully learnt that people going to games are 99.99% of the time going about their lawful business

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Every subsequent Bill, Report, Act since all have a common theme, doing away with terraces was the right thing to do. The Sports Minister last week reaffirmed this.

I have read a good bit on "Herd Behavior". It is quite scary stuff even scarier because there is no logical accepted explanations to why it occurs.

When your dealing with something as unpredictable as a mass congreation of people, over zealous policy works. Seated arena works.

Do you normally ignore reasonable arguments and facts to prove a point? Nobody, including myself is suggesting it isn't safer to go to a football match nowadays, but seriously, you are flogging an absolute dead horse suggesting terracing has ANYTHING to do with hooliganism. The reason it's safer is due to better policing, crowd control, monitoring of fans and newer stadiums. Even so, crowd trouble still exists, and needs to be monitored at all times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/olliewilliams/2009/08/how_violent_your_teams_fans_ar.shtml

2007 A.S. Roma-Manchester United F.C. conflict




Manchester United fan hurling a ripped up seat at riot police.

Notice the seat in his hand?

Trouble Before And After Manchester City's League Cup Semi-Final First Leg With Manchester United

We will get you and ban you is message to hooligans...


By Zack Wilson Jan 21, 2010 5:59:00 PM






Greater Manchester Police is set to arrest more troublemakers following the outbreaks of violence around Tuesday night's League Cup semi-final first leg between Manchester City and Manchester United.

Eighteen arrests were made before, during and after the game, with security checks before the game finding golf balls, darts and flares on suppporters at Eastlands.

A lighter was at one stage thrown at United defender Patrice Evra, while United fans also managed to light two red flares during the build up to the match when a blue moon is beamed into the stadium.

One police officer was injured after the game and many fans tried to get into the stadium without tickets.

Having studied further evidence, including CCTV footage, Greater Manchester Police now plans more arrests.

"We had an incident with about 1,000 Manchester United supporters turning up at the away end with about ten minutes to kick off," assistant chief constable Ian Hopkins explained, speaking to Sky Sports News.

"This was clearly a tactic that some of them were using to get into the game without tickets, and fans were passing back tickets that had gone through the turnstile mechanisms to enable others to get in.

Ah yes, Old Trafford, 2010, with all it's terraced areas to attract the hooligans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkrpOIoSKJc

Is that a seat I see being thrown?

Hertha crowd trouble leads to ticket restriction and fine (Roundup)


Frankfurt - Hertha Berlin can sell no more than 25,000 [COLOR=#008000 ! important][COLOR=#008000 ! important]tickets[/COLOR][/COLOR] to their fans for next month's Bundesliga home game against VfB Stuttgart, the German football federation (DFB) [COLOR=#008000 ! important][COLOR=#008000 ! important]sports[/COLOR][/COLOR]
court ruled on Wednesday in the wake of recent crowd trouble. .........

....Between 100 and 150 Hertha fans, some armed with flag poles, stormed the pitch at the Olympic Stadium after the game. Some seats and glass and plastic walls around the coaching zone were damaged.

As usual, a small minority spoil it for the rest, but hey, lets blame the terra....oh hang on a minute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30ThJblpDLs

What were the hooligans throwing here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5mjn3iOLRE

More crowd trouble. More seats.

flahavaj

Don't care

CiaranC wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of this going on lately. Comparing Auntie Mary and Uncle Seamus heading up to the big shmoke with the tae and sangwiches a couple of times a year to those nutters I saw from Spurs last time I was at Fulham is a bit mental

Nice.

keane2097

No

flahavaj wrote: »

Nice.

Great way to make sure a lot of people don't bother reading the rest of your posts

flahavaj

Don't care

keane2097 wrote: »

Great way to make sure a lot of people don't bother reading the rest of your posts

Boo. I was your corner man yesterday and this is how you treat me.:pac:

The Auntie Mary bit gave me a good LOL I must admit, despite myself. Shur you couldn't pay the prices for the sangwiches they charge in Croker.:pac:

keane2097

No

flahavaj wrote: »

Boo. I was your corner man yesterday and this is how you treat me.:pac:

The Auntie Mary bit gave me a good LOL I must admit, despite myself. Shur you couldn't pay the prices for the sangwiches they charge in Croker.:pac:

I was talking about the other guy's posts.

The attitude that all GAA supporters are culchies who can't say the word tea properly and all soccer fans are either prawn-sandwich eating aristocrats or chair-throwing pavees.

I dunno, just kind of numbs my mind to the rest of their views...

flahavaj

Don't care

keane2097 wrote: »

I was talking about the other guy's posts.

The attitude that all GAA supporters are culchies who can't say the word tea properly and all soccer fans are either prawn-sandwich eating aristocrats or chair-throwing pavees.

I dunno, just kind of numbs my mind to the rest of their views...

Ah in that case box away, keep working the jab and don't let your hands drop champ.:pac:

Davidth88

No

Good lord , as an ' outsider ' why oh why do so many threads here seem to become a p*ssing contest between codes .

To me its obvious that a GAA crowd are very different to a Rubgy crowd who are quite different to a Football crowd ( I am English so I will call it football )

I was very shocked at my first GAA game ( kerry Vs Someone ) in Killarney where you had a large crowd on mainly terraces , WITH FENCING !! , but it soon became obvious the crowd was different.

I actually hate standing on terracing with fences now , I did stand on the Leppings Lane end 3 or 4 times , and others and in retrospect sometimes it was scary with you feet not touching the ground .

I won't discuss the differences between crowds here because thats a whole different can of worms.