Police to grease their palms to subsidise drop in income?

murf313

PCPhoto wrote: »

because during the "boom" they were all purchasing multiple properties and now they cant make the repayments - but dont want to loose their homes ..... so they are asking the government to help them make the repayments.

Gardai do a tough job - thats true, they are well paid and given loads of "allowances" (compared to other jobs) - the work of a garda may involve a full day "walking the beat" or might involve a busy day arresting common criminals, filing paperwork, taking statements etc.

they are given loans, mortgages and different "rates" because they use their own credit union - St Raphaels (in Dublin anyway) ..... they are given free public transport and entrance into clubs by flashing the "access anywhere" badge - many of them believe they are better than the ordinary person and should be entitled to more than the ordinary person.

ooohhhh..... sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder :eek:

murf313

WalterMitty wrote: »

alot of people went for the gardai, prison officer etc as it is very well paid for low educational and skill requirements and allowed you to borrow a lot for investment properties as you were seen as unsackable and in a job for life. I know several older gardai and they all have multiple properties. It was a good gig for a few decades when houses were cheap and garda pay only rose but not anymore . Any garda with more than one property should not complain.
Actually with this new 2nd home tax is it not possible to get some stats on how many in public sector have 2nd homes? Might shine a bit mor elight on their claims of suffering.

the name suits ya waltermitty.....

do you live in a dream world where everyone who is a public servant has multiple properties and swims in rivers of chocolate???

alias141282

zootroid wrote: »

I too did not like the remarks coming out of the GRA, and a quick look at their website will show that they are quite well paid. If members made poor financial decisions, it's not the state's fault. I can imagine the reaction a worker in the private sector would get by asking for a pay rise on the basis that his rent went up. This situation is not too dissimilar.

That is because private companies are not democratic organisations, they are effectively private tyrannies. A private company doesn't care if your kids go hungry, or you can't sleep worrying about your mortgage. Its only obligation is to the bottom line.

Public sector workers on the other hand have won some degree of freedom of expression in the workplace, through union organising. They can speak out and are doing so. If I were in their situation I would do the same.

alias141282

murf313 wrote: »

the name suits ya waltermitty.....

do you live in a dream world where everyone who is a public servant has multiple properties and swims in rivers of chocolate???

No. Public servants should not own multiple properties. That situation should never have been allowed to arise and it highlights the recklessness of the past decade that this was ever allowed to happen.

The Government now in power allowed this to happen (remember light regulation was State policy) and now it will cut pay across the economy and leave thousand of people in very substantial negative equity. Do you not see anything wrong with this?

Some younger gaurds now have big mortgages on a single property and I have sympathy with them.

murf313

alias141282 wrote: »

No. Public servants should not own multiple properties. That situation should never have been allowed to arise and it highlights the recklessness of the past decade that this was ever allowed to happen.

The Government now in power allowed this to happen (remember light regulation was State policy) and now it will cut pay across the economy and leave thousand of people in very substantial negative equity. Do you not see anything wrong with this?

Some younger gaurds now have big mortgages on a single property and I have sympathy with them.

there are far more people out there other than public servants, who own multiple properties...

I agree that the government should of put stricter laws in place regarding mortgages etc

I also have sympathy with them as I am in the same boat.

Head The Wall

murf313 wrote: »

ooohhhh..... sounds like someone has a chip on their shoulder :eek:

So somebody quotes known facts and you get all defensive. Why is that?

danbohan wrote: »

in third world countrys , the bankers are corrupt , the politicians are corrupt , the clergy are corrupt the police / judicary are corrupt , in ireland 3 out of that 4 are already proven , the 4 th, ie the police/ judicary have just not been exposed yet

It's happening already


Fourth garda suspected of leaking information

alias141282

murf313 wrote: »

there are far more people out there other than public servants, who own multiple properties...

I agree that the government should of put stricter laws in place regarding mortgages etc

I also have sympathy with them as I am in the same boat.

Yeah and govt. doesn't care about your situation. Its bailing out the banks - who in large part caused this mess - and leaving families up and down the country to fend for themselves.

Hence the quote from the Garda rep:

"the Government is truly a Government of national sabotage whose only agenda is to protect economic traitors."

About time somebody said it.

alias141282

Head The Wall wrote: »

So somebody quotes known facts and you get all defensive. Why is that?

It's happening already

Fourth garda suspected of leaking information

There will always be corrupt cops in any police force. I'm not aware of any evidence which suggests that the Gardai are more corrupt than average across Europe.

Head The Wall

alias141282 wrote: »

There will always be corrupt cops in any police force. I'm not aware of any evidence which suggests that the Gardai are more corrupt than average across Europe.

Should they not be well paid then, it's obviously making no difference if there are corrupt cops. According to the GRA as I see it they are there to serve themselves and not their country.

Commissioner Murphy was on the news at 10 telling tyhe GRA and any other garda to keep their noses out of politics. They are an independant body and are not to influence any other body.

zootroid

alias141282 wrote: »

That is because private companies are not democratic organisations, they are effectively private tyrannies. A private company doesn't care if your kids go hungry, or you can't sleep worrying about your mortgage. Its only obligation is to the bottom line.

Public sector workers on the other hand have won some degree of freedom of expression in the workplace, through union organising. They can speak out and are doing so. If I were in their situation I would do the same.

To say they're private tyrannies is going too far, but it's true that they are only concerned with their own bottom line, and rightly so. Of course they wouldn't care if my (hypothetical) kids went hungry, why would they? They would be my responsibility. The company pays a market wage, but it's up to me to make sure I take out a mortgage I can afford, and can also provide for anyone else in my life. The guards already earn a good wage. I pay no attention to anyone who says otherwise.

alias141282 wrote: »

No. Public servants should not own multiple properties. That situation should never have been allowed to arise and it highlights the recklessness of the past decade that this was ever allowed to happen.

The Government now in power allowed this to happen (remember light regulation was State policy) and now it will cut pay across the economy and leave thousand of people in very substantial negative equity. Do you not see anything wrong with this?

Some younger gaurds now have big mortgages on a single property and I have sympathy with them.

I wouldn't say public servants shouldn't own multiple properties, but to do so is their own choice, and they shouldn't use the decisions they made as the basis for negotiation of pay.

As for young guards who have big mortgages, their decrease in earnings would be offset by the record low ECB interest rates (although the Irish banks are currently increasing their rates), and the fall in the general level of prices.

I would think the pressure is coming from those who own multiple properties, and are facing lower rents, and in some cases reduced occupancies leading to difficulties in paying their mortgages. Again, they made their own decisions, they should live by them.

With regards to your point about the government being partly to blame with lax regulation, of course I do see something wrong with this, but that is a seperate argument. And you can vote against the government parties come the next election (I know I will).

The_Honeybadger

Smiegal wrote: »

Christ Almighty.... What age are you???

Ya know what.... seeing as "free speech" and the fact that "The Moderators" have all but dissapeared here, I may as well do the same as the rest of you on this thread and state one huge generalisation in that all 400,000 people currently out of work are nothing but a bunch of wasters..... and everyone in the private sector are fully to blame for this recession.... Yup.... If Stupid and insulting generalisations are the order of the day then count me in..... and while we're at it..... Ya dont mind if I call it "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" do ya???

Pathetic!!!!

I agree some of the generalisations on here have been laughable, but the GRA can't come out with outrageous statements like the one they made and not expect a reaction. I think people are entitled to an opinion, although i doubt some of the posters here could back up some of the claims they made. Serious questions for you,

Do you agree with the GRA's assertion that Gardai could become involved in widespread corruption to help pay off their personal debts, and

Against a backdrop of over 500k unempoloyed (433 official, 50k+ waiting on claims & god knows how many more not entitled to benefits)and an absolutely monumental debt crisis gripping the public finances, do you believe the Gardai have been treated unfairly in recent times?

Matt Cooper today quoted average garda pay as over 50k (CSO) to GRA rep, who refuted that and said that was not the reality on the ground, what is the reality on the ground exactly? And are your colleagues simply struggling with one mortgage, or multiple ones?

I don't believe mudslinging is fair, however I fail to see why Gardai feel they are special, or have been singled out, most people I know are worse off than they were during the boom, some are much much worse off. I won't even address the working part-time jobs statement, as I believe it to be a PR stunt, GRA know calling for a reversal of pay cuts is futile and are changing tactics, i don't believe for a second that if they changed the laws we'd see thousands of Gardai taking up part-time work in other industries, maybe some would but not that many. I have also long believed that Gardai on full pensions should not be allowed work, never more so than now when they are blocking others from leaving the dole queues, but that is another matter I guess.

Byron85

After one year the standard pay rate is €28,484. I think i'm reading the following table right..


http://mail.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

pah

As a member of AGS I take particular exception to what O Boyce has claimed. You could cut my pay another 10% and it wouldn't make me more likely to be affected by corruption it's not in my nature to begin with.:mad:

TBH I would hope that this does not reflect the view on the ground from rank and file members. It seems more like something of a headline grabber to me!

While I would agree that rank and file should have little or no sway in the political arena, someone in a position such as Michael 'O Boyce has the ability to call the Govt on the shambles that we now find ourselves in. He just needs a bit more tact.

I would love to see what the average pay is for the year 2010 for a Garda. The €1200 pw average quoted on here by some is from 2008 and is inclusive of overtime, something I never saw much of. All figures should be quoted as Gross!!!! That puts everyone on an equal understanding.

For the record I think I am paid a good wage and the benefits of retirement at 55 (If I choose to) with a great pension is one of the reasons I went for this job in the first place. There are a lot of health problems assosciated with shift work and the shift rotations used atm are outdated.

Smiegal

Drumpot wrote: »

So the Police union dont represent the police force? You are completely missing my very simple point (in favour of picking out one line sentances that either highlight your own ignorance of inability to understand my point). .

The union represents the policeforce and I assume are being paid by their members to say what their members think . . Therefore its fair to assume that this is the attitude of a majority of the workforce ..

Your point on the unemployed is completely stupid and out of context and based on a general mindset of the narrow minded. Mine is based on the actual words (not mine), of the body that represents the garda (and whom they support) . . Remind me again how they are similar . .

Your simple point??? Fine... So what exactly did he say???? Word for word please... Not YOUR interpretation of what he said or the medias interpretation or Aherns interpretation..... What EXACTLY did he say??? Quote please!!!

For the record... What I said about the unemployed and private sector was as O put it in the post if you read the whole thing!!!! A stupid generalisation!!

There are so many FOOLS willing to hop on the Garda Bashing Boat because they've been arrested for public order or caught speeding or they've "heard" of someone else who didn't like Bering caught so they throw on an extra bit on their story about how they were hard done by... The majority of it is a load of bull!!

And yea it's an okay paid job, but this "average of €1,200 a week" is a load of bull too!! This average is made up of every rank, from Commish all the way down too probationar!! Also, the differance in wages of a member at Garda rank depends on his/her location. That is to say that a member in say... Daingean will not be on nearly as much overtime as a member in CAB (who makes multi millions of euro for the state).. The fact is the country member is
probably on no OT whatsoever which means he is on around €700-€800 a week... After cuts, tax, pension might take home around 500.. Not bad but it makes a load of ****E out of this unrealistic average

Smiegal

Head The Wall wrote: »

Should they not be well paid then, it's obviously making no difference if there are corrupt cops. According to the GRA as I see it they are there to serve themselves and not their country.

Commissioner Murphy was on the news at 10 telling tyhe GRA and any other garda to keep their noses out of politics. They are an independant body and are not to influence any other body.

Of course the GRA are there to represent themselves... That's exactly what they are there for.... Christ!!! You see something wrong with a group of people having some form of reprasentation??? Jeeeesuzzzz!!!!!!

pah

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65610873&postcount=28

From another thread.

I would prefer money being spent on a new car for my station.
I would prefer money being spent on a couple of more computers for my files.
I would prefer money being spent on recruiting more Gardai.
I would prefer money being spent on purpose built stations to increase safety for Gardai and prisoners.
I would prefer money being spent on proper and practical uniform.
I would prefer money being spent on continuous training.

The kind of issues the GRA should be openly tackling instead of this futile attempt to get back wage cuts.

Drumpot

Smiegal wrote: »

Your simple point??? Fine... So what exactly did he say???? Word for word please... Not YOUR interpretation of what he said or the medias interpretation or Aherns interpretation..... What EXACTLY did he say??? Quote please!!!

For the record... What I said about the unemployed and private sector was as O put it in the post if you read the whole thing!!!! A stupid generalisation!!

There are so many FOOLS willing to hop on the Garda Bashing Boat because they've been arrested for public order or caught speeding or they've "heard" of someone else who didn't like Bering caught so they throw on an extra bit on their story about how they were hard done by... The majority of it is a load of bull!!

And yea it's an okay paid job, but this "average of €1,200 a week" is a load of bull too!! This average is made up of every rank, from Commish all the way down too probationar!! Also, the differance in wages of a member at Garda rank depends on his/her location. That is to say that a member in say... Daingean will not be on nearly as much overtime as a member in CAB (who makes multi millions of euro for the state).. The fact is the country member is
probably on no OT whatsoever which means he is on around €700-€800 a week... After cuts, tax, pension might take home around 500.. Not bad but it makes a load of ****E out of this unrealistic average

How am I generalising anything when I am only quoting what the garda representative said? (cant believe im still explaining myself to you!) . .

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/corruption-warning-over-gardai-2153496.html

It cant be interpreted any other way . . Maybe it was just a headline grabbing comment, but thats not the point . A policeforce suggesting it might become more corrupt if it doesnt get its way is just plain wrong and obviously doesnt understand the horrifying ramifications of the concept of what it is actually saying.

STOP ARGUING POINTS WITH ME THAT I DIDNT MAKE. MY COMMENTS ARE MAINLY TO DO WITH WHAT THE UNIONS SAID, THATS NOT GENERALIZING ANYTHING, ITS FACT AND REPRESENTITIVE OF THE ENTIRE FORCE . .

I hate myself for continuing to try to explain myself to such a {Insert name here} . .

alias141282

That speech again: http://www.newstalk.ie/programmes/all/breakfast/the-speech-that-was-never-delivered/

Now I know the Gaurds are meant to be apolitical, but apart from that the speech just says what most of us are thinking.

"We are angry that we, our children and our children’s children have been sacrificed by this government to protect the people who bankrolled your party and robbed the Irish People. Men like Fingers and Seanie were held up by government as examples of entrepreneurial skill and business acumen but who were nothing more than ‘gombeen’ men.

We are angry at the arrogance of a government corrupted by years of power has lost touch with the reality of life on a modest salary; if they ever knew it at all. A government whose only agenda is to protect the economic traitors.

We are angry at being lectured by government on the need to be patriotic. A patriot is ‘a person who vigorously supports his country and its way of life.’ This government is misusing what it means to be Irish as they support a new aristocracy created in their image. This new aristocracy chooses whether to retain state pensions while still working as public representatives, using all means to spend vast resources on the few, while taking pay from the majority. This government have created a new class system; one that does not value our service and dedication.
We are angry about NAMA. No, not the entity set up by government to bail out developers and speculators who reneged on their debts, the cost of which you have placed on the shoulders of generations of Irish workers to come. Yes, we are angry about that, but, I am talking about the NAMA that the government is, The National Assets Mismanagement Agency.

The government of which you are a long serving member has mismanaged the wealth of this country for more than a decade by allowing our assets to be plundered and robbed by bankers and speculators and you are making generations of Irish workers pay the price for this treachery. You did this because bankers and speculators have bought your party, and in return you have sacrificed the greater good and prosperity of the Irish Nation for the benefit of the few – the few who have now taken their ill-gotten gains and secured them in tax haven around the world. Truly, a government of national sabotage."


Its good for democracy when someone can stand up and say this sort of thing.

OMD

Smiegal wrote: »

Your simple point??? Fine... So what exactly did he say???? Word for word please... Not YOUR interpretation of what he said or the medias interpretation or Aherns interpretation..... What EXACTLY did he say??? Quote please!!!

Why don't you give the quote then? If you know exactly what was said then please tell us.

Smiegal wrote: »

And yea it's an okay paid job, but this "average of €1,200 a week" is a load of bull too!! This average is made up of every rank, from Commish all the way down too probationar!! Also, the differance in wages of a member at Garda rank depends on his/her location. That is to say that a member in say... Daingean will not be on nearly as much overtime as a member in CAB (who makes multi millions of euro for the state).. The fact is the country member is
probably on no OT whatsoever which means he is on around €700-€800 a week... After cuts, tax, pension might take home around 500.. Not bad but it makes a load of ****E out of this unrealistic average

I am unsure why people make up such bull when discussing pay especially when the actual figures are so easily available on line. A garda with only 6 years experience will earn €810 a week before overtime or any other allowance and assuming this garda never works nights or weekends.

Obviously the "average garda would be more than 6 years qualified and would work evenings, bank holidays and weekends even if he had no overtime so would be on substantially more than this. Perhaps you could tell us how many gardai are on 700-800 a week.

alias141282

zootroid wrote: »

To say they're private tyrannies is going too far, but it's true that they are only concerned with their own bottom line, and rightly so. ).

Yes they are private tyrannies which are allowed to operate within our democracy.

zootroid wrote: »

Of course they wouldn't care if my (hypothetical) kids went hungry, why would they? They would be my responsibility.

Yes they don't care. And the same economic ideology (laissez faire economics) convinced the British Government that they had to let Irish people starve during the famine. The government couldn't interfere with the market. Of course its fine to interfere when you are bailing out banks or giving grants or pumping resources into research and development or infrastructure to support private companies.

zootroid wrote: »

I wouldn't say public servants shouldn't own multiple properties, but to do so is their own choice, and they shouldn't use the decisions they made as the basis for negotiation of pay.

As for young guards who have big mortgages, their decrease in earnings would be offset by the record low ECB interest rates (although the Irish banks are currently increasing their rates), and the fall in the general level of prices.

I would think the pressure is coming from those who own multiple properties, and are facing lower rents, and in some cases reduced occupancies leading to difficulties in paying their mortgages. Again, they made their own decisions, they should live by them.

With regards to your point about the government being partly to blame with lax regulation, of course I do see something wrong with this, but that is a seperate argument. And you can vote against the government parties come the next election (I know I will).

Yes but the banks and the State have a duty to lend responsibly. You can't have a situation where they are throwing money out the door at people who realistically won't be able to pay it back and then use the full force of the law to crush them when they go into arrears.

Drumpot

alias141282 wrote: »

That speech again: http://www.newstalk.ie/programmes/all/breakfast/the-speech-that-was-never-delivered/

Now I know the Gaurds are meant to be apolitical, but apart from that the speech just says what most of us are thinking.

"We are angry that we, our children and our children’s children have been sacrificed by this government to protect the people who bankrolled your party and robbed the Irish People. Men like Fingers and Seanie were held up by government as examples of entrepreneurial skill and business acumen but who were nothing more than ‘gombeen’ men.

We are angry at the arrogance of a government corrupted by years of power has lost touch with the reality of life on a modest salary; if they ever knew it at all. A government whose only agenda is to protect the economic traitors.

We are angry at being lectured by government on the need to be patriotic. A patriot is ‘a person who vigorously supports his country and its way of life.’ This government is misusing what it means to be Irish as they support a new aristocracy created in their image. This new aristocracy chooses whether to retain state pensions while still working as public representatives, using all means to spend vast resources on the few, while taking pay from the majority. This government have created a new class system; one that does not value our service and dedication.
We are angry about NAMA. No, not the entity set up by government to bail out developers and speculators who reneged on their debts, the cost of which you have placed on the shoulders of generations of Irish workers to come. Yes, we are angry about that, but, I am talking about the NAMA that the government is, The National Assets Mismanagement Agency.

The government of which you are a long serving member has mismanaged the wealth of this country for more than a decade by allowing our assets to be plundered and robbed by bankers and speculators and you are making generations of Irish workers pay the price for this treachery. You did this because bankers and speculators have bought your party, and in return you have sacrificed the greater good and prosperity of the Irish Nation for the benefit of the few – the few who have now taken their ill-gotten gains and secured them in tax haven around the world. Truly, a government of national sabotage."


Its good for democracy when someone can stand up and say this sort of thing.

Brilliant . . This comes to the core of the problem/solution . . I will march the streets with Public servants are guards in anger at everything mentioned above . .

If it takes the unions to actually show leadership for the greater good, I will honestly give them a chance to help this country have a revolutionary change in culture/leader. THis is a very sad thing to have to say, but its the way things are at the moment . .

BUT . . While they make their wage demands and job perks/security integral in their agenda, I have no time for them (as its all about them, not the greater good) . . Therein lies the problem . .

If you truely want above post and fairness, then drop your PERSONAL demands and work together to get rid of the corrupt stench that roams this decimated society. Of course it doesnt make sense for a union to do such a thing (sort of defeats the purpose of representing just your membes which is their job). . It simply highlights even more the lack of moral leadership in government . . The lack of confidence in the alternative/opposition highlights the complete lack of confidence in the entire political system . .

A true leader can tell you how things are and inspire you to work harder for less, not because you want to , but because you believe in them . . I will be honest and say a part of me would love the opportunity to get into power to see why the right decisions cannot be made for the greater good. . There is too much looking after your own, too much keep your enemies and friends closer (so you can keep power) and too much short term planning . . Its not limited to FF, I just think its politics in general in the western world democracies . .

alias141282

Drumpot wrote: »

A true leader can tell you how things are and inspire you to work harder for less, not because you want to , but because you believe in them ..

Yes if you want our society to become something like George Orwells 1984.

Democracy is about grassroots popular organisation, not having blind faith in "the leader".

Drumpot

alias141282 wrote: »

Yes if you want our society to become something like George Orwells 1984.

Ah the cynic . . Of course Im speaking about a leader with integrity and upholds true/fair morals that represent the majority of its people without alienating others . . I know , I know, big leap of faith required to find such a person and get them to a position of power, but we can dream . .

Theres nothing wrong with people working together for a greater good . . It doesnt matter what system you use in society, if you have a dodgy character at the helm it can be at the expense of everybody . .There is no doubt that the systems in place at the moment represent the interests of the minority . .Hence the reason there is so much disillusionment . . things could always be worse, then again, theres nothing wrong with wanting a better society . .

alias141282

Drumpot wrote: »

Ah the cynic . . Of course Im speaking about a leader with integrity and upholds true/fair morals that represent the majority of its people without alienating others . .

My point is that democracy is not about individuals or leaders, its about popular organisation, people informing themselves, debating, participating, and voting for the policies [not the personalities] that they want.

Drumpot

alias141282 wrote: »

My point is that democracy is not about individuals or leaders, its about popular organisation, people informing themselves, debating, participating, and voting for the policies [not the personalities] that they want.

Ah right . . I completely agree . .

Im always arguing with friends who say "Cant wait to get rid of FF"and ask them what they think FG/Labour will bring to the table . . "Well it wont be FF, thats good enough" . . Wow . . So we need change for the sake of personal satisfaction, as opposed to change to improve the way our country is run . . Thats brilliant, so we learned our lesson so ! ! :rolleyes:

problem is that people wont change their narrow minded attitudes and our electorate needs to grow up . .

Scofflaw

Smiegal, cop yourself on and calm down. Your posts are barely comprehensible flame bait, and contribute very little to the debate. Others seem to get by with fewer exclamation marks and expostulations.

moderately,
Scofflaw

OMD

Scofflaw wrote: »

cop yourself on

Was that deliberate:D

TheNog

mickeyk wrote: »

I think I read somewhere that the average salary for Gardai is over 50k, how much do they want? I know they have suffered due to cuts in overtime, and this coupled with the pension levy etc must really hurt, admittedly, but c'mon it is still a good wage. I'm a little puzzled as to how they are all so strapped for cash that they need to take up part-time work, I firmly believe this to be nothing more than a PR stunt.

Actually the most a Garda can be paid is just under 50k after 17 yrs service but seeing as approx 60% of the AGS has 5 yrs service or less, it is between 27 and 42k. All before tax and deductions.

Drumpot wrote: »

People think that 2 -3 holidays a year is an entitlement or the norm . . Seriously WTF . . If i get one holiday a year Im psyched (went to cork for 4 days last year!) .

Big problem is that people still believe that the lifestyle they had 3 or 4 years ago should be maintained (or they should at least have the option) so they have absolutely no compunction about crying foul about how poorly off they are if they cant do things like go out every week or holidays every few months. .

Do you have evidence that the 40,000 people waiting on passports were all Gardai or other Public Sector workers?

I really dont understand why you made this comment. It is little or no bearing on this discussion.

Japer wrote: »

Its actually closer to 60k


as much as possible, plus their gold plated pension after only 30 years


+1

wrong on the 60k

and

the pension which we now contribute to.

PCPhoto wrote: »

a position which "some" use to their advantage - how many gardai get speeding tickets quashed, how many will quote the law which suits them in an arguement, how many break our driving laws - in a squad car while not en route somewhere.

how many do get speeding tickets quashed?

I know of a few in my station who have penalty points

Breaking road traffic laws?

how do you know where a patrol car is headed?

itsonlywords wrote: »

They want the Garda Ombudsman's office closed as it is obviously getting a bit hot for them. Well cops you dont call the shots on that.

Thats absolute crap. The GRA have called for the Government to increase GSOCs numbers so they can handle more investigations themselves.

Get off your asses and do a days work and shut the f**k up, moaning minnies.

Can be difficult at times when Im driving a patrol car with 300k kms on it back into the garage again for the 4th time in a month and then trying to find another available patrol car to go to calls. This happened last month.

So what about this month when 2 from my unit were at court so that left 2 Gardai in 2 cars about 20 miles apart who then had to respond to an armed robbery. This is in a garda district of about 40 miles long and 20 miles wide.

itsonlywords wrote: »

A cop can retire at 50 but why should they retire so early. If they are hard worked sitting in the patrol cars for 30 years then they can move indoors to clerical work until they reach normal retirement age and get a normal pension to the value of what they contributed. This will bring savings worth millions. Time we evolved these cops into normal workers and take away this privelage that they have created for themselves.

If the number of Gardai stays the same, in 25 yrs time 60% of AGS will be on clerial duty so leaving only 40% of AGS actually on full duties. Seeing as this government doesnt believe in forward planning, it will leave people more susceptible to crime.

Drumpot wrote: »

When a trade union comes out and says "we represent a majority of our members", you have to take it as fact (unless most of their members dont voice their true opinions) . .

In this case, the GRA overstepped the mark IMO and made a poorly chosen point to suggest that a condition of their contract should be changed . . To me, this kind of ignorance highlights how little these people care about or respect the general public (their employers) . . They might aswell of said "Allow us do 2nd jobs or some of us could rob ye" . .

Its a trait that seems to be shared by sections of society that dont respect their employer and feel that their employer should facilitate their every whim and maintain their living standards . . Ive used the word perception to describe where the breakdown in communications happens. . What do you perceive to be fair ? What do you feel you are entitled to ? What you have you will take for granted, what you lose (and took for granted) will suddenly become the most important thing in your life.

Aside from what was said about corruption which I think the GRA were only highlighting as a potential threat to the organisation, the GRA are not a union. Reason is because the Government never allowed it to be since its inception. This was because from the beginnings of the GRA it was considered a threat to the organisation and Government. At its very first meeting in Dublin, surveillance of the venue was undertaken to get as many names of those attending so disciplinary action could be taken and members sacked.

In present times because the GRA is not allowed to be a union, unlike every other public sector union, they were not allowed attend or negoiate at Croke Park. Basically after the Croke Park deal, the GRA were handed a few sheets of paper and told we had better accept this or else.

Head The Wall wrote: »

Should they not be well paid then, it's obviously making no difference if there are corrupt cops. According to the GRA as I see it they are there to serve themselves and not their country.

Isnt the job of every union or representative body is to protect their workers rights and work conditions as much as is possible?

Commissioner Murphy was on the news at 10 telling tyhe GRA and any other garda to keep their noses out of politics. They are an independant body and are not to influence any other body.

Noble idea but shouldnt the politicians be told to stay out of policing first?

Every rank from Superintendent up is decided by a politician, every judge appointment is decided by a politician, every new piece of equipment AGS gets has to be approved by a politician.

This is the same politician who has refused to attend the GRA annual conference 2 yrs in a row. Is that a snub or what?

zootroid wrote: »

As for young guards who have big mortgages, their decrease in earnings would be offset by the record low ECB interest rates (although the Irish banks are currently increasing their rates), and the fall in the general level of prices.

My overall wages has decreased by about 30% from 3 yrs ago. The ECB rate hasnt fallen that much.

zootroid

alias141282 wrote: »

Yes they are private tyrannies which are allowed to operate within our democracy.

So, are you referring to all private enterprises as "tyrannies"?
From small traders employing a staff of one, to the bigger corporations?
Basically anyone who is not employed directly by the state?
I think you need to look up the word tyranny in the dictionary.

alias141282 wrote: »

Yes they don't care. And the same economic ideology (laissez faire economics) convinced the British Government that they had to let Irish people starve during the famine. The government couldn't interfere with the market. Of course its fine to interfere when you are bailing out banks or giving grants or pumping resources into research and development or infrastructure to support private companies.

Are you actually trying to compare the recession in Ireland, and the debate surrounding how taxpayers money is spent, with the famine?

alias141282 wrote: »

Yes but the banks and the State have a duty to lend responsibly. You can't have a situation where they are throwing money out the door at people who realistically won't be able to pay it back and then use the full force of the law to crush them when they go into arrears.

Banks do have a duty to lend responsibility, and they should be operating within the rules as set down by the regulator. But that doesn't mean responsibility simply falls on one side only. People who take out loans to buy more than one property should be acting responsibility too. They took a gamble on property moving in only one direction. That gamble didn't pay off. They should have to live with the consequences.
(And before you make any point about "what about the banks", I don't believe the state should be bailing out the banks either. I would prefer to see them nationalised, given time to sort out their financial positions, and then sold off, hopefully making a return.)

alias141282

zootroid wrote: »

So, are you referring to all private enterprises as "tyrannies"?
From small traders employing a staff of one, to the bigger corporations?
Basically anyone who is not employed directly by the state?
I think you need to look up the word tyranny in the dictionary.

Yes a private company is a private tyranny. They are not democratic organisations. You cannot question how they operate in any fundamental way. You must accept what they do or leave.

Definition of tyranny in the Oxford dictionary:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/tyranny?view=uk


noun ([SIZE=-1]pl.[/SIZE] tyrannies) 1 cruel and oppressive government or rule. 2 a state under such rule. 3 cruel and arbitrary exercise of power or control.

zootroid wrote: »

Are you actually trying to compare the recession in Ireland, and the debate surrounding how taxpayers money is spent, with the famine?

No, I never said they were the same. I said the laissez faire economic ideology of the British government at that time is much the same as the free market ideology of today. You cannot interfere in the market when it comes to helping the population but you can massively interfere in the market for the benefit of private companies and private investor wealth.

zootroid wrote: »

Banks do have a duty to lend responsibility, and they should be operating within the rules as set down by the regulator. But that doesn't mean responsibility simply falls on one side only.

I never said responsibility only falls on one side. I said the banks and the State have a responsibility as well. At the moment ordinary people who borrowed are suffering the consequences while the banks are being bailed out.

OMD

TheNog wrote: »

Actually the most a Garda can be paid is just under 50k after 17 yrs service but seeing as approx 60% of the AGS has 5 yrs service or less, it is between 27 and 42k. All before tax and deductions.

TheNog wrote: »

My overall wages has decreased by about 30% from 3 yrs ago. The ECB rate hasnt fallen that much.

You are confusing basic pay here and actual pay. If you are saying gardai earn between 27 and 42K a year then you cannot say your overall pay is down 30%. You are mixing the 2 issues.

The reality is in 2008, according to the CSO the average garda (all grades) was paid €62.776. This included all allowances and overtime.

Excluding overtime but including other allowances the average garda earned €56,000.

Basic pay for a garda after 1 years service is €30k.
Gardai get pay rises/increments every year for the first 6 years. If what you are saying is true and 60% of gardai are less than 6 years working then they will have received pay rises that should go a long way to ease the cuts imposed by the pay cut and pension levy.

So a garda 4 years working in 2008 would have earned €40,389. This year he would be at year 6 and would be earning a basic of €42,138. The pension levy would then bring his pay down to €39,190. This represents a 7% reduction in pay over the last 2 years. It should also be remembered that there was deflation of 2.5% during this period also.

If as you say 60% of gardai are working less than 6 years then the majority have taken a cut of 7% in basic pay. A long way from 30%.

The_Honeybadger

TheNog wrote: »

Actually the most a Garda can be paid is just under 50k after 17 yrs service but seeing as approx 60% of the AGS has 5 yrs service or less, it is between 27 and 42k. All before tax and deductions.

You have chosen to ignore the host of allowances which add to this salary, not saying gardai are not entitled to them, just that you have left them out. I don't believe for a second there is a Garda anywhere on Gross 27k overall income, isn't there a 4k :eek: allowance for rent for a start?

Drumpot

TheNog wrote: »

Do you have evidence that the 40,000 people waiting on passports were all Gardai or other Public Sector workers?

.

You make the assumption in this sentence you picked out, that I only refer to guards or Public servants . . While the mood in this post is negative towards the garda (Im negative towards the Garda unions, not necessarily the garda themselves) , I am talking about society in general . .

BUT, in certain sections of society people dont have a choice but accept whatever pain comes their way negatively(and therefore have to adjust their personal expectations in line with their income cuts). For the guards (basing this on union stance, which I assume represents its members views), they feel that there is room for their conditions to be protected or improved (since levy etc) . . As such there is the perception that they do not really appreciate their current working standards in the current economic climate of Ireland PLC . .

That point is vital in any discussion on Unions or sections of society believing that they have some sort of entitlement or moral standpoint with regard to the remuneration they get from their employment . .

Smiegal

Drumpot wrote: »

How am I generalising anything when I am only quoting what the garda representative said? (cant believe im still explaining myself to you!) . .

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/corruption-warning-over-gardai-2153496.html

It cant be interpreted any other way . . Maybe it was just a headline grabbing comment, but thats not the point . A policeforce suggesting it might become more corrupt if it doesnt get its way is just plain wrong and obviously doesnt understand the horrifying ramifications of the concept of what it is actually saying.

STOP ARGUING POINTS WITH ME THAT I DIDNT MAKE. MY COMMENTS ARE MAINLY TO DO WITH WHAT THE UNIONS SAID, THATS NOT GENERALIZING ANYTHING, ITS FACT AND REPRESENTITIVE OF THE ENTIRE FORCE . .

I hate myself for continuing to try to explain myself to such a {Insert name here} . .

Gardai struggling to repay debts because of public sector pay cuts could be vulnerable to corruption, a rank and file leader has warned.

PJ Stone, general secretary of the Garda Representative Association (GRA), said international experience has shown low-paid forces are susceptible to "being got at".

The above was taken from what you linked in to your last post. This IS NOT a quote from the speech. Its a journalists interpratation of what was said. This thread was set up by YOU and the heading again suggests that Police in general are to grease there palms with bribes etc to subsidise their drop in income... If you, and others want to continue to be sheparded by the media well bigger fools you.

What was actually said in this speech was that if police are on low wages (which I don't believe we are, before you start...) then there will be certain members more open to corrution/bribes and he went further to say there are many Countries were this is a case in point.....
THIS IS A FACT NOT A THREAT!!!!!!

That is a completly different thing to saying Well Lads, ye better get rid of that oul pay cut cause if ye dont we'll all just get it back with bribes...

You, the media and others here have decided to interpret this as saying exactly that... That is my gripe!!! You have not quoted PJ Stone you have quoted interpretations of what he has said!!!!

Smiegal

Scofflaw wrote: »

Smiegal, cop yourself on and calm down. Your posts are barely comprehensible flame bait, and contribute very little to the debate. Others seem to get by with fewer exclamation marks and expostulations.


moderately,
Scofflaw

Finally, we have a moderator...

pah

Smiegal wrote: »

Gardai struggling to repay debts because of public sector pay cuts could be vulnerable to corruption, a rank and file leader has warned.

PJ Stone, general secretary of the Garda Representative Association (GRA), said international experience has shown low-paid forces are susceptible to "being got at".

The above was taken from what you linked in to your last post. This IS NOT a quote from the speech. Its a journalists interpratation of what was said. This thread was set up by YOU and the heading again suggests that Police in general are to grease there palms with bribes etc to subsidise their drop in income... If you, and others want to continue to be sheparded by the media well bigger fools you.

What was actually said in this speech was that if police are on low wages (which I don't believe we are, before you start...) then there will be certain members more open to corrution/bribes and he went further to say there are many Countries were this is a case in point.....
THIS IS A FACT NOT A THREAT!!!!!!

That is a completly different thing to saying Well Lads, ye better get rid of that oul pay cut cause if ye dont we'll all just get it back with bribes...

You, the media and others here have decided to interpret this as saying exactly that... That is my gripe!!! You have not quoted PJ Stone you have quoted interpretations of what he has said!!!!

I still think it's a bad angle to come from though on the GRA'S part

Drumpot

Smiegal wrote: »

Gardai struggling to repay debts because of public sector pay cuts could be vulnerable to corruption, a rank and file leader has warned.

PJ Stone, general secretary of the Garda Representative Association (GRA), said international experience has shown low-paid forces are susceptible to "being got at".

The above was taken from what you linked in to your last post. This IS NOT a quote from the speech. Its a journalists interpratation of what was said. This thread was set up by YOU and the heading again suggests that Police in general are to grease there palms with bribes etc to subsidise their drop in income... If you, and others want to continue to be sheparded by the media well bigger fools you.

What was actually said in this speech was that if police are on low wages (which I don't believe we are, before you start...) then there will be certain members more open to corrution/bribes and he went further to say there are many Countries were this is a case in point.....
THIS IS A FACT NOT A THREAT!!!!!!

That is a completly different thing to saying Well Lads, ye better get rid of that oul pay cut cause if ye dont we'll all just get it back with bribes...

You, the media and others here have decided to interpret this as saying exactly that... That is my gripe!!! You have not quoted PJ Stone you have quoted interpretations of what he has said!!!!

Thats why I put a question mark over my thread . . As in - "So police are going to turn to corruption to subsidise their drop in income?" . Because some people have used this thread to Garda bash, you have assumed that was my intention and have pretty much taken the tone with me that I am only out to bash the police/public service.

If Im bashing or attacking anybody its the unions . .

You have just agreed with the fact that I have been making (that it was said by the garda representitive body), so where does your arguement about me lumping everybody into the same bracket come from ?

This was a carefully chosen tone of words used to get a reaction of some sort . . . And they got it .. Perhaps it wasnt the reaction they wanted/anticipated as it has angered a majority of us who find it offencive because whatever they are saying is simply to justify their goals (doesnt matter who it upsets) . . . If I wanted to go on a real moral rant I could ask you how do you feel the pensioner who doesnt know any better feels about the words corruption and Garda being used in the same sentance on national TV by the garda representitive ? Do you think it might perhaps scare the sh*t out of them ?

This thread is about the unions comments and how its perceived in general. . Most people took it to mean exactly what was said . . Not really sure how you can argue otherwise . .

TheNog

OMD wrote: »

You are confusing basic pay here and actual pay. If you are saying gardai earn between 27 and 42K a year then you cannot say your overall pay is down 30%. You are mixing the 2 issues.

The reality is in 2008, according to the CSO the average garda (all grades) was paid €62.776. This included all allowances and overtime.

Excluding overtime but including other allowances the average garda earned €56,000.

Basic pay for a garda after 1 years service is €30k.
Gardai get pay rises/increments every year for the first 6 years. If what you are saying is true and 60% of gardai are less than 6 years working then they will have received pay rises that should go a long way to ease the cuts imposed by the pay cut and pension levy.

So a garda 4 years working in 2008 would have earned €40,389. This year he would be at year 6 and would be earning a basic of €42,138. The pension levy would then bring his pay down to €39,190. This represents a 7% reduction in pay over the last 2 years. It should also be remembered that there was deflation of 2.5% during this period also.

If as you say 60% of gardai are working less than 6 years then the majority have taken a cut of 7% in basic pay. A long way from 30%.

I apologise the oversight on my part. It wasnt intentional to create a falsehood in gross pay. I didnt feel the need to include allowances because not all allowances apply to all guards.

The CSO figures create a sort of false image imo as it includes all ranks from rank and file to Commissioner. The starting of basic pay for a Garda is 27k compared to 80k for a Superintendent. Above Superintendent (of which there are 140 odd) there is a further 4 more pay grades up to Commissioner. If I remember correctly the Commisioner is paid something in the region of 160k. I could be wrong. So in essence the CSO figures do not give a real picture of rank and file Gardai.

As for the 30% reduction that I stated, that is a reduction in my gross pay from 3 yrs ago. Back then overtime is plentiful because it was actually needed to paper over the cracks in lack of manpower. Now OT is gone the cracks are more evident than they ever were.

mickeyk wrote: »

You have chosen to ignore the host of allowances which add to this salary, not saying gardai are not entitled to them, just that you have left them out. I don't believe for a second there is a Garda anywhere on Gross 27k overall income, isn't there a 4k :eek: allowance for rent for a start?

Yes rent allowance is there for all rank and file Gardai. There are other allowances such as shift allowance, bank holiday, uniform, boot etc. The rest of the allowances shouldnt really be applied here becuse they are not open to all uniformed members.

Drumpot wrote: »

You make the assumption in this sentence you picked out, that I only refer to guards or Public servants . . While the mood in this post is negative towards the garda (Im negative towards the Garda unions, not necessarily the garda themselves) , I am talking about society in general . .

BUT, in certain sections of society people dont have a choice but accept whatever pain comes their way negatively(and therefore have to adjust their personal expectations in line with their income cuts). For the guards (basing this on union stance, which I assume represents its members views), they feel that there is room for their conditions to be protected or improved (since levy etc) . . As such there is the perception that they do not really appreciate their current working standards in the current economic climate of Ireland PLC . .

That point is vital in any discussion on Unions or sections of society believing that they have some sort of entitlement or moral standpoint with regard to the remuneration they get from their employment . .

Most members would agree that some sort of cut in pay is justified to reduce costs but how many cuts are enough? Do we allow the Government to keep cutting our wages and say nothing?

In the Croke Park deal the Government says they will review the cuts already taken next year and wont initiate anymore unless further economic circumstances arise but want us to promise not to begin any industrial action if there are more cuts. In my book that is extremely vague and not worth even considering unless the Government clarify some matters.

Matters such as Public Sector reform and how it will be done. Having worked in the private sector for 13 yrs I know the public sector needs major reform including a serious reduction in personnel in some areas. Another area of reform is the red tape out up by various organisations for whatever reason I can never fathom.

Im all for change but for the love of God dont withhold money that prevents me from doing my job.

Smiegal

pah wrote: »

I still think it's a bad angle to come from though on the GRA'S part

I do agree Pah, but the way this Thread started out, got me going a little bit... Mmmmm... more fool me.

Really annoyes me the way the media puts their own sensational angle on things GRA and Public Sector related these days.

Drumpot

TheNog wrote: »

Most members would agree that some sort of cut in pay is justified to reduce costs but how many cuts are enough? Do we allow the Government to keep cutting our wages and say nothing?

In the Croke Park deal the Government says they will review the cuts already taken next year and wont initiate anymore unless further economic circumstances arise but want us to promise not to begin any industrial action if there are more cuts. In my book that is extremely vague and not worth even considering unless the Government clarify some matters.

Matters such as Public Sector reform and how it will be done. Having worked in the private sector for 13 yrs I know the public sector needs major reform including a serious reduction in personnel in some areas. Another area of reform is the red tape out up by various organisations for whatever reason I can never fathom.

Im all for change but for the love of God dont withhold money that prevents me from doing my job.

I agree . .

But for me, the need for change has to come from our attitudes . . Everybodys attitudes . .

I agree that the cuts that will more then likely happen or the extra tax is unfair, but I think the only way to get TRUE fairness is for public + Private to join together and work harder for less with the goal of collective prosperity at the end of the rainbow . .

Yep . . Its a utopian dream, but the unions have played a major part in splitting these two sections of society . . The government havent had to do much . . When I hear about fairness, I dont consider fairness in the private sector to be the same as that in the public service.

The perception is that the public service do not realise how good they have it (because while they have taken paycuts etc, the real pain is losing your job or losing sleep over a potential job loss).

When Unions talk of fairness, they completely alienate and ignore the largest part of society - Unemployed + Private sector employees . . Of course there is going to be resentment and anger . .

What we need is somebody with a common goal (for both private and Public workers and people on social welfare) to inspire confidence and renewed hope for us all . . I would hazzard a guess that the unions stance is that there is still alot of Sh*t down the line for us all and ANY concession they can get will be worth its weight in gold . . But thats just it, its about grabbing the last bit of gold from the vault before it collapses . .

People defending their livelihood is ok in my book . . But if its at the expense of others, then they cannot accept those people (taxpayers) to be happy . .

People say to me "if you were in my shoes you would feel differantly" . Well yes of course I would, but that wouldnt make me right . . It just makes me more concerned with my interests then that of the greater good . . WE ARE ALL LIKE THIS, but it doesnt excuse a person from ignoring their responsibility to their employer . .

Ive said it before over and over again . . A big problem is perception . . Its completely differant on both sides . . What is fair ? What should I be entitled to ? Who should pay for this mess ? What do I perceive pain to be (losing job, reduction in wage)?

rightwingdub

PJ Stone should be sacked, he is a traitor coming out with remarks like that, the Gardai are very well paid in comparison to other EU states and its there own bleedin fault if they decided to buy property that they knew dam well they couldn't afford if the overtime sudeenly dried up, also they got favourable mortgages off the banks so tough s**t batten down the hatches and slum down with the rest of us mere mortals.

The Guards did very well out of the Celtic tiger and they need to share the pain like the rest of us, also there have been a few crooked guards during the celtic tiger but the vast majority are law abiding and wouldn't even dream of been involved in corrupt practices.

OMD

TheNog wrote: »

I apologise the oversight on my part. It wasnt intentional to create a falsehood in gross pay. I didnt feel the need to include allowances because not all allowances apply to all guards.

The CSO figures create a sort of false image imo as it includes all ranks from rank and file to Commissioner. The starting of basic pay for a Garda is 27k compared to 80k for a Superintendent. Above Superintendent (of which there are 140 odd) there is a further 4 more pay grades up to Commissioner. If I remember correctly the Commisioner is paid something in the region of 160k. I could be wrong. So in essence the CSO figures do not give a real picture of rank and file Gardai.

Well they give a pretty accurate picture really. 96% of gardai are of basic garda or sargeant level. The remaining 4% (ie inspector and higher)is not sufficient to have any real influence on the figures. You can say with a pretty high degree of certainity that the average garda earned over 60K a year in 2008. (For this 60K figure I am assuming the average inspector and superintendent earned 100K)

TheNog wrote: »

As for the 30% reduction that I stated, that is a reduction in my gross pay from 3 yrs ago. Back then overtime is plentiful because it was actually needed to paper over the cracks in lack of manpower. Now OT is gone the cracks are more evident than they ever were.

You have to add to this the fact that you are now doing a lot less hours.

TheNog wrote: »

Most members would agree that some sort of cut in pay is justified to reduce costs but how many cuts are enough? Do we allow the Government to keep cutting our wages and say nothing?

But also take into account that in the 2 years prior to the introduction of pension levy Garda pay increased 10% when inflation was about 5%. In real terms (ie allowing for inflation and pension levy) garda pay is pretty similar to 2006. I don't mean it has been cut to 2006 levels. I mean basic garda pay in 2010 has the same purchasing power as basic garda pay in 2006

TheNog wrote: »

Im all for change but for the love of God dont withhold money that prevents me from doing my job.

What money is being withheld that prevents you doing your job?

pah

rightwingdub wrote: »

PJ Stone should be sacked, he is a traitor coming out with remarks like that, the Gardai are very well paid in comparison to other EU states and its there own bleedin fault if they decided to buy property that they knew dam well they couldn't afford if the overtime sudeenly dried up, also they got favourable mortgages off the banks so tough s**t batten down the hatches and slum down with the rest of us mere mortals.

The Guards did very well out of the Celtic tiger and they need to share the pain like the rest of us, also there have been a few crooked guards during the celtic tiger but the vast majority are law abiding and wouldn't even dream of been involved in corrupt practices.

Firstly I think his comments weren't the best idea, but

• no one's saying we're not well paid
• when I got my mortgage EBS did not consider any overtime
• i got the same mortgage as Joe Soap
• who says we're not sharing the pain?

Why do you insist on bringing things down to the level of "slumming with mere mortals" no Garda I know puts themselves up on a pedastal or anything! What's that about?

Also I started a thread here before, entitled This just in - somebody, somewhere, gets paid more than I do!! This is a fact of life my friend and thankfully I have a good job and good wage, but there's always a bigger fish.

TheNog

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree . .

But for me, the need for change has to come from our attitudes . . Everybodys attitudes . .

I agree that the cuts that will more then likely happen or the extra tax is unfair, but I think the only way to get TRUE fairness is for public + Private to join together and work harder for less with the goal of collective prosperity at the end of the rainbow . .

Yep . . Its a utopian dream, but the unions have played a major part in splitting these two sections of society . . The government havent had to do much . . When I hear about fairness, I dont consider fairness in the private sector to be the same as that in the public service.

The perception is that the public service do not realise how good they have it (because while they have taken paycuts etc, the real pain is losing your job or losing sleep over a potential job loss).

When Unions talk of fairness, they completely alienate and ignore the largest part of society - Unemployed + Private sector employees . . Of course there is going to be resentment and anger . .

What we need is somebody with a common goal (for both private and Public workers and people on social welfare) to inspire confidence and renewed hope for us all . . I would hazzard a guess that the unions stance is that there is still alot of Sh*t down the line for us all and ANY concession they can get will be worth its weight in gold . . But thats just it, its about grabbing the last bit of gold from the vault before it collapses . .

People defending their livelihood is ok in my book . . But if its at the expense of others, then they cannot accept those people (taxpayers) to be happy . .

People say to me "if you were in my shoes you would feel differantly" . Well yes of course I would, but that wouldnt make me right . . It just makes me more concerned with my interests then that of the greater good . . WE ARE ALL LIKE THIS, but it doesnt excuse a person from ignoring their responsibility to their employer . .

Ive said it before over and over again . . A big problem is perception . . Its completely differant on both sides . . What is fair ? What should I be entitled to ? Who should pay for this mess ? What do I perceive pain to be (losing job, reduction in wage)?

You speak of fairness and thats exactly the core issue within AGS.

400,000 people are unemployed out 2 million is 20% of the workforce,
about 300,000 work in the Public sector so maybe about 17% of the workforce,

however

30% of the workforce in the private sector have had no cut in pay. Wheres the fairness in that?

rightwingdub wrote: »

PJ Stone should be sacked, he is a traitor coming out with remarks like that, the Gardai are very well paid in comparison to other EU states and its there own bleedin fault if they decided to buy property that they knew dam well they couldn't afford if the overtime sudeenly dried up, also they got favourable mortgages off the banks so tough s**t batten down the hatches and slum down with the rest of us mere mortals.

The Guards did very well out of the Celtic tiger and they need to share the pain like the rest of us, also there have been a few crooked guards during the celtic tiger but the vast majority are law abiding and wouldn't even dream of been involved in corrupt practices.

Why do people think Gardai are not already feeling the pain? I am and so are many that I know. We have already tightened our belts as much as we can but yet the Government is saying there maybe more cuts.

TBH it wont take much more cuts for me to make a decision on whether to pay bills and feed my family or have enough money for fuel to go into work. Thats how it is now for some of my colleagues. More cuts will mean more of my colleagues will be faced wth the same situation.

OMD wrote: »

Well they give a pretty accurate picture really. 96% of gardai are of basic garda or sargeant level. The remaining 4% (ie inspector and higher)is not sufficient to have any real influence on the figures. You can say with a pretty high degree of certainity that the average garda earned over 60K a year in 2008. (For this 60K figure I am assuming the average inspector and superintendent earned 100K)



You have to add to this the fact that you are now doing a lot less hours.



But also take into account that in the 2 years prior to the introduction of pension levy Garda pay increased 10% when inflation was about 5%. In real terms (ie allowing for inflation and pension levy) garda pay is pretty similar to 2006. I don't mean it has been cut to 2006 levels. I mean basic garda pay in 2010 has the same purchasing power as basic garda pay in 2006

I dont know if my maths is correct to calculate earnings here but:

if 40% of AGS are on 50k (17yrs service),

60% of AGS are on 42k (5yrs service)

and lets say there are 12000 rank and file members

doesnt that equal to 45k in basic wage excluding pension and income levies, OT and rent allowance

What money is being withheld that prevents you doing your job?

Cars for a start, our district car is literally falling apart. The last time I drove it sparks flew past my window so I grounded it for safety reasons. Brought it back to the station but there was no other cars for me to use. That was a weekend night and we covered 3/4 of the district. In that night there was 3 burglaries and 2 cars stolen which could have been prevented if we were out patrolling.

computers
- there is only one computer for everyone to use for files so each unit of 4 people have to work out who needs it most. This computer can only be used after a civil servant has gone home for the day.

stations
- my station is far too small for the amount of people working in it. Basically it is nothing but a house. In fact it was a house before being classed as a station many many many years ago. Its now a listed building.

- There was talk of a new green site to build a brand new station of a bigger size which happened to be across the road from a halting site. They of course objected (no reasons given) to it so now it is planned to build them a new halting site on the same site.

- We also are forced to put lockers in the same room where prisoners are brought in. One prisoner became violent and was restrained by 5 Gardai. One of those Gardai was struck in the jaw and while falling back hit his head off a locker hinge. He needed 9 stitches.

Equipment and training
- up until just this year I have been trained on the speed gun despite several requests for training.

- I have also requested training in the Intoxilyser machine and stinger device. None of which can given due to lack of money.
- I drive a patrol car even though Im not trained to do so. I have tried to do as much as I can by paying for training out of my own pocket but is still unacceptable. If I crash the patrol car and am prosecuted in court I could lose my own driving licence which would prevent me from driving my own car into work.

-We also have a public order van in the station but only 4 people are trained to drive it so its rarely used. On occasion we have been forced to use the van for normal patrolling when our marked car is in the garage. Other times we have to double up in one of the unmarked cars with the crime unit lads. We have been told that when the marked car is dead (almost there) we either take one from a sub station which will be a 1.4l Focus or do without a car. And this is supposed to be acceptable for a district hq whose car respond to all major incidents in the district from intruders on to fatal RTAs to armed robberies.

So does anyone here think this the type of service the public wants?

We dont think so but there is no money and this is happening right across the country.

Anyone hear Dermot Ahern saying yesterday that we are the best resourced police force in the world?

My arse. If it was true why do think he refuses to attend the GRA conference for the second time. This only some of the reasons why members of the AGS are disillusioned.

Hopefully I wont have to tell anyone again "I know you have some one in your home and a car from another station will be there in 20 mins and yes I do know the station is only 5 mins up the road but we have no car whatsoever to help you".

pah

I hear you Nog, if I wrote for a week I couldn't have been more concise about the problems we work through every day. The GRA have to address these issues first and foremost.


Edit - If I wrote for a week that would hardly be concise would it :rolleyes:

TheNog

pah wrote: »

I hear you Nog, if I wrote for a week I couldn't have been more concise about the problems we work through every day. The GRA have to address these issues first and foremost.


Edit - If I wrote for a week that would hardly be concise would it :rolleyes:

See thats half the problem, the GRA have been telling the Government for years about these problems but are not listened to.

Tetra was 11 -12 years in the making. It was only introduced when the media reported how criminals up and down the country were listening to us and knew where each patrol car was and these were not only your most serious criminal godfathers.

Stab vests took about 5-6 years of asking for that but they were considered too militant. That was until two Gardai were stabbed by a Chinese fella with a sword in Dublin

Modern cars, this has probably been going since before I was born and Im in my 30's. It took two Gardai to be killed in Clonshaugh who were driving a 12yr car with no airbags or abs back in the late 90 or early 00's.

About 4 yrs ago the Dept of Transport had a building in a certain county. They moved out of it because it was condemned. After a number of months of deciding what to do with it, they decided to move the Gardai into it. It went as far as being organised until the GRA said no bloody way citing health and safety reasons which was why the building was closed down in the first place!!!!!!!

Any wonder the Government doesnt want the GRA to become a union. I tell ye, ye couldnt make this stuff up.

Drumpot

TheNog wrote: »

You speak of fairness and thats exactly the core issue within AGS.

400,000 people are unemployed out 2 million is 20% of the workforce,
about 300,000 work in the Public sector so maybe about 17% of the workforce,

however

30% of the workforce in the private sector have had no cut in pay. Wheres the fairness in that?

.

If the GRA is all about improving the tools that garda have, what has being able to double job got to do with it?

If the issues you speak of are true, then why is it only now (when coincidentally salaries have been seriously effected) that the GRA is taking things up such a significant level. Its a cynical way to view it , I agree, but to the layman it simply looks like the GRA may very well of been looking for the improvements you suggest, but its only when salaries have been reduced have they made it a priority (step up media pandering etc). .

I dont think anybody has a problem with the police having the correct tools to do their jobs. . But the GRA wants police to be able to double job, which is obviously one of their issues . . This is not anything to do with fairness , this is just about them wanting terms and conditions of their contract change for their own benefit . .

That aside, the private sector employers will most definitely change the wages of their employees according to their budget. If a company can afford to maintain its employees wages then why is that any concern of the public service? The government (the employer of public/civil servant) actually didnt go far enough in covering its budget, they should be thankful that they didnt actually address the pay issue the same way a private sector employer would because there would of been savage job losses and even more serious paycuts. . If you want to compare which parts of the private sector didnt take paycuts, then you can give up your guaranteed job and guaranteed pension . . This is again where the perception of "fairness" applies. Your comments also sound like the person looking over the fence at everything your neighbour has and looking at what you have . Comparing the fact that they have a bigger house, a bigger car and a bigger garden. But you ignore the fact that you own your house and they still have a mortgage and loans . . The private sector employee has no guarantees.

To the person in guaranteed employment/pension, not having the fear of a decimated pension or loss of job means that they have put little or no value on its importance to the security of a family/individual. . Most private sector employees I know would take a 15% paycut if they knew that they would be guaranteed a job until retirement . . Anybody with a family is realistic to know that guaranteed job is king in the current climate . .

Smiegal

TheNog wrote: »

See thats half the problem, the GRA have been telling the Government for years about these problems but are not listened to.

Tetra was 11 -12 years in the making. It was only introduced when the media reported how criminals up and down the country were listening to us and knew where each patrol car was and these were not only your most serious criminal godfathers.

Stab vests took about 5-6 years of asking for that but they were considered too militant. That was until two Gardai were stabbed by a Chinese fella with a sword in Dublin

Modern cars, this has probably been going since before I was born and Im in my 30's. It took two Gardai to be killed in Clonshaugh who were driving a 12yr car with no airbags or abs back in the late 90 or early 00's.

About 4 yrs ago the Dept of Transport had a building in a certain county. They moved out of it because it was condemned. After a number of months of deciding what to do with it, they decided to move the Gardai into it. It went as far as being organised until the GRA said no bloody way citing health and safety reasons which was why the building was closed down in the first place!!!!!!!

Any wonder the Government doesnt want the GRA to become a union. I tell ye, ye couldnt make this stuff up.

Two excellent posts that perhaps gives recent posters on this thread a tiny glimpse into how badly equipped the regular units are up and down the length of the Country. Well done

Head The Wall

Smiegal wrote: »

Two excellent posts that perhaps gives recent posters on this thread a tiny glimpse into how badly equipped the regular units are up and down the length of the Country. Well done

I'd hazard a guess that they are under resourced for the same reason that there is no money left in the education budget to build schools. (77%)

murf313

rightwingdub wrote: »

PJ Stone should be sacked, he is a traitor coming out with remarks like that, the Gardai are very well paid in comparison to other EU states and its there own bleedin fault if they decided to buy property that they knew dam well they couldn't afford if the overtime sudeenly dried up, also they got favourable mortgages off the banks so tough s**t batten down the hatches and slum down with the rest of us mere mortals.

The Guards did very well out of the Celtic tiger and they need to share the pain like the rest of us, also there have been a few crooked guards during the celtic tiger but the vast majority are law abiding and wouldn't even dream of been involved in corrupt practices.

If someone else had of said it, would they be a traitor???

The man spoke the truth, the only reason you are disagreeing is because he is a garda.

How many people on this board alone, have said that the government are incompetent, useless, overpaid goodfornothing shower??? do you not agree that they have fecked this country up?

This is the view of the general public, just because a public servant said it doesn't make it wrong!