URGENT: Laptop Battery has failed after 14 months

alexlyons

I got a MacBook Pro last January (2009) and a month ago I noticed the battery wasn't holding a charge. I spoke to technical support, who wanted to charge me for them listening to my fault, any way, I reset The SMC, which deals with power etc. Any way, I went away and wasn't using the machine for a while and the other day, I unplugged the power able and the machine turned off after about 2 minutes. The battery isn't providing power to the machine. The fault isn't all that important, more Apple's stance on it. But basically, the machine will not function without a power cable, which means it is broken.

Under the sale of gods and supply of services act goods must be of merchantable quality for a reasonable period of time. a laptop worth €2500 should last longer than 14 months. Granted that the battery is a consumable part, but it should gradually wear down after a large amount of use, not suddenly stop. It has a cycle count of 126, a capacity of 4144 and an Amperage of -316. The amperage screams that there is a problem.

Basically, because it has broken within a reasonable time, Apple should replace the battery (assuming that's the problem). They claim that I have to prove that there was a manufacturing defect with the product within the first 6 months of purchase. I don't believe this for a second.

I can easily enough get an authorized repair centre to look at the machine for all of 2 minutes and say that there is a fault, but I don't really want to have to do this if it's not 100% necessary.

Thoughts on whether I'm right or wrong on my stance would be great, as quick as possible if you can

Cabaal

You might get more help in relation to your specific issue in the Mac forum as a number of posters are well used to dealing with apple support

alexlyons

I'm pretty good with apple support, I've had 7 replacement laptops and got a free iMac out of them for my trouble

I'm more looking for very specific information on whether or not I am entitled to a replacement battery or whatever the fault is, and if they are wrong in saying I must prove there was a manufacturing defect within the first 6months, which seems like utter rubbish!

Thanks

TheDriver

alexlyons wrote: »

I'm pretty good with apple support, I've had 7 replacement laptops and got a free iMac out of them for my trouble

I'm more looking for very specific information on whether or not I am entitled to a replacement battery or whatever the fault is, and if they are wrong in saying I must prove there was a manufacturing defect within the first 6months, which seems like utter rubbish!

Thanks

My big question is why do you keep buying macs with the amount of trouble with them, I have not had one problem with a laptop and I use them everyday

Paulw

In general, a battery has a limited life, depending on usage (and even how it is used).

14 months may be the life of that particular battery type.

pistolpetes11

alexlyons wrote: »

I'm pretty good with apple support, I've had 7 replacement laptops and got a free iMac out of them for my trouble

I'm more looking for very specific information on whether or not I am entitled to a replacement battery or whatever the fault is, and if they are wrong in saying I must prove there was a manufacturing defect within the first 6months, which seems like utter rubbish!

Thanks

Jesus your fairly unlucky , I have had two Mac Book pros for over 3 years with out a problem and they both get heavy use !

On topic, is there not some EU laws thats states goods have to repaired replaced within a two year time frame |?

subway

batteries are generally treated as a consumable, like car tyres.
if you are to take the warranty terms for batteries, most companies will replace them without question in 6 months as most users wont have an issue inside that so CBA means its easier to blanket guarantee them. if even some of those replaced inside the 6 months are down to useage.

outside that 6 months you are going to be in the same position as you would with a car tyre. in a case like this, it will come down to what you can prove. apple will know you cant easily prove that the battery useage was not abnormal and are therefore likely to stick to their guns. if you do go to court, you would need some evidece that the battery was faulty.

basically, you would have a hard time proving either a tyre or a battery suffered exceissve wear due to a manufacturing defect rather than an increase useage pattern

Nody

alexlyons wrote: »

I'm pretty good with apple support, I've had 7 replacement laptops and got a free iMac out of them for my trouble

I'm more looking for very specific information on whether or not I am entitled to a replacement battery or whatever the fault is, and if they are wrong in saying I must prove there was a manufacturing defect within the first 6months, which seems like utter rubbish!Thanks

They are qouting UK law for you and not Irish law (UK law require you to prove it was a manufacture problem after six months). Yes, you most likely have the right to a replacement battery, request it in writing and give them 10 days to reply then simply drop a SCC request in, at worst it would cost you 15 EUR.

To the poster above, no, the user is not to prove abnormal use, the seller is to show why 14 months should be considered an acceptable time for a bettery to last.

P. Breathnach

Just curious: why is this consumer issue more urgent than others?

DarkJager

The battery is classed as a consumable item, so 14 months after purchase you will have to pay for a replacement. Battery life varies incredibly from user to user, so most can only be guaranteed for a max of 6 months.

gbee

Difficult to answer your question, the battery is a consumable but the industry would put a two year working life on them, many however, just last about 12 months.

Batteries are often expressly excluded from warranties ~ if so, then showing a manufacturing fault is present is where I think the support is coming from.

alexlyons

Thanks to all. In answer to a few questions.

The only reason it was urgent was because the customer relations representative had to get back to me and I wanted hard facts if I could get them, no other real reason, I have noticed in the past that if something is urgent and you put a tag such as that on it, you generally get a few more replies quicker, but not always.

I just brought it to Mactivate and they ran diagnostics on it. I ran the quick Apple hardware test and it showed up nothing, I didn't have time to run the extended test which can take hours. They gave me an error code very similar to ones I've seen from extended tests I've run, so they must have some quicker more thorough method. Bottom line is the battery is definitely faulty with a manufacturing defect.

Also, I have only bought one laptop from Apple. It broke and I got it replaced, rinse and repeat 5 times (i think it was 5, could have been 6) and each machine I received was an upgraded from the last, with the exception of the last machine. I also got a 24" iMac free of charge for the hassle. Mac's suit what I do and the actual OS is far more reliable than windows, so I use Mac's. and to be fair, I have had few problems in the past year.

Apple Guarantee the battery to a 300 cycle count, although the CR Representative told me 500, so it may be that. They basically say that if it has 300 or less cycles and less than 80% capacity, they'll replace it any time, out of warranty or not. Mine has less than 300 cycles but more than 80% capacity (supposedly) so they claim it's fine. However with a minus Amperage, it effectively has no capacity.

I'll have to see what they say now that I have it diagnosed by one of there own.

Interested in that EU law...

subway

Nody wrote: »

To the poster above, no, the user is not to prove abnormal use, the seller is to show why 14 months should be considered an acceptable time for a bettery to last.

6 months is usually an acceptable time for a battery to last, depending on the useage.
that is why they wont be warrantied longer than that.
consumer law is up to 6 years depending on the good.

industry standard is 6 months (sometimes longer depending on the battery type and useage pattern expected)
i can almost guarantee that a judge or registrar will take a similar viewpoint if the company were to follow it up. potentially, they wont waste the money hiring a lawyer for such a small item and the OP will be awarded the replacement by default.

however this is my opinion, taking an informed view of the nature of batteries and the international standards for replacing them. if it ever makes it to court, a judge may disagree.

the_syco

IIRC, regarding EU law, batteries have a 6 month warranty.

ttm

Apple use these words in a few places on their site....

Please note that the battery is a consumable item and after a period of normal use the battery's ability to hold an electrical charge will be diminished. Replacement of a battery which has been consumed via normal use is not covered under warranty.

Seems reasonable to me? So its just down to arguing what is normal use?

I think some (many?) posters here would consider a year of daily useage normal use so I don't see why apple would take any other view.

btw this has me confused ....

It has a cycle count of 126, a capacity of 4144 and an Amperage of -316. The amperage screams that there is a problem.

Is it going backwards?

Cabaal

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just curious: why is this consumer issue more urgent than others?

How do you mean?

alexlyons

ttm wrote: »

Apple use these words in a few places on their site....



Seems reasonable to me? So its just down to arguing what is normal use?

I think some (many?) posters here would consider a year of daily useage normal use so I don't see why apple would take any other view.

Ye that's fair enough. However:

Mac's count cycle counts on each full depletion of the battery. Along the lines of if it has a 3 hour capacity, and you use it for 1 hour every day and charge it every night, then every three days is one cycle count. However, as I said Apple cover batteries up to 300 cycles and 80% capacity. Mine has only 126 cycles and doesn't hold a charge at all (2 minutes, literally, is not a charge at all). So along with an Apple diagnostics of a faulty battery, I have to have some thing to go on....

P. Breathnach

Cabaal wrote: »

How do you mean?

In the header, OP flagged the post as urgent. In response to my question he has explained why he did. That's all.

keithclancy

alexlyons wrote: »

Ye that's fair enough. However:

Mac's count cycle counts on each full depletion of the battery. Along the lines of if it has a 3 hour capacity, and you use it for 1 hour every day and charge it every night, then every three days is one cycle count. However, as I said Apple cover batteries up to 300 cycles and 80% capacity. Mine has only 126 cycles and doesn't hold a charge at all (2 minutes, literally, is not a charge at all). So along with an Apple diagnostics of a faulty battery, I have to have some thing to go on....

Have you tried this ?
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1457?viewlocale=en_US

alexlyons

keithclancy wrote: »

Have you tried this ?
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1457?viewlocale=en_US

While I hadn't actually seen the page, I have tried some of it. The only thing I haven't done is instal 10.4.9 as I have 10.6.3 and there is no battery update. I have calibrated it numerous times and have reset the SMC and PRAM, even though the PRAM should have nothing to do with it!

keithclancy

alexlyons wrote: »

Ye that's fair enough. However:

Mac's count cycle counts on each full depletion of the battery. Along the lines of if it has a 3 hour capacity, and you use it for 1 hour every day and charge it every night, then every three days is one cycle count. However, as I said Apple cover batteries up to 300 cycles and 80% capacity. Mine has only 126 cycles and doesn't hold a charge at all (2 minutes, literally, is not a charge at all). So along with an Apple diagnostics of a faulty battery, I have to have some thing to go on....

Hmm ..
Well this person had something similar
http://www.davidalison.com/2009/12/apple-solves-my-macbook-pro-battery.html

If its not holding any charge it would suggest its a manufacturing defect, i.e. only 126 cycles and its knackered and supposed to last 300 cycles with 80%.

Ask to speak to CR and also made sure you've jumped through all the hoops.

Going to be tough to get it covered outside the 1 year warranty though, 2 years is with the original place of purchase, afaik the Applecare Protection Plan wouldn't cover that either.

alexlyons

keithclancy wrote: »

Hmm ..
Well this person had something similar
http://www.davidalison.com/2009/12/apple-solves-my-macbook-pro-battery.html

If its not holding any charge it would suggest its a manufacturing defect, i.e. only 126 cycles and its knackered and supposed to last 300 cycles with 80%.

Ask to speak to CR and also made sure you've jumped through all the hoops.

Going to be tough to get it covered outside the 1 year warranty though, 2 years is with the original place of purchase, afaik the Applecare Protection Plan wouldn't cover that either.

He did indeed have something similar but on an older machine with a different battery. But it's the same type of fault so i would hope it'l be ok.

I've got an open case with CR and a direct line to the representative.

I bought it straight from Apple, although I'm not sure by what you mean about the 2 years?

Regardless of Apple care or not, it only has a minimal number of charge cycles and looks to be a manufacturing defect. Lets hope!

Sure if all else fails, I'm going to San Francisco in June, so I can pop in to a genius bar then...

keithclancy

alexlyons wrote: »

He did indeed have something similar but on an older machine with a different battery. But it's the same type of fault so i would hope it'l be ok.

I've got an open case with CR and a direct line to the representative.

I bought it straight from Apple, although I'm not sure by what you mean about the 2 years?

Regardless of Apple care or not, it only has a minimal number of charge cycles and looks to be a manufacturing defect. Lets hope!

Sure if all else fails, I'm going to San Francisco in June, so I can pop in to a genius bar then...

The Portables (iPods,Macbooks, Macbook Pros) have a 1 year worldwide limited warranty, you definetly wouldn't be covered in the US.

What I meant by seperate is the Applestore and Applecare are two seperate entities, even though their in the same building.

I think if its outside the one year you'd probably need an exception from Customer Relations, maybe ask to speak to them.

alexlyons

keithclancy wrote: »

The Portables (iPods,Macbooks, Macbook Pros) have a 1 year worldwide limited warranty, you definetly wouldn't be covered in the US.

What I meant by seperate is the Applestore and Applecare are two seperate entities, even though their in the same building.

I think if its outside the one year you'd probably need an exception from Customer Relations, maybe ask to speak to them.

That's right, the portables have a limited one year warranty, however they also guarantee the batteries to 300 cycles at 800% capacity. The genius bars are pretty good and if I walk in and sit it down in front of them and show the exactly whats wrong, there is a very high chance they'll replace the battery due to it's health

keithclancy

alexlyons wrote: »

That's right, the portables have a limited one year warranty, however they also guarantee the batteries to 300 cycles at 800% capacity. The genius bars are pretty good and if I walk in and sit it down in front of them and show the exactly whats wrong, there is a very high chance they'll replace the battery due to it's health

Only thing I would mention is when the AppleStore stick in your Serial Number they will be able to see that you've been talking to Apple in Cork

Have you tried an AASP in your Area ? They're normally pretty good.

alexlyons

keithclancy wrote: »

Only thing I would mention is when the AppleStore stick in your Serial Number they will be able to see that you've been talking to Apple in Cork

Have you tried an AASP in your Area ? They're normally pretty good.

Forgot about that, but I reckon if it gets to that stage, I'll have already applied to the SCC!

I went to Mactivate who weren't much help. They ran diagnostics on it and gave me an error code which Apple say doesn't show up an error on there system. Mactivate also told me it was a manufacturing fault but when Apple rang them they claimed they ran diagnostics and just said the battery had been depleted. Waste of €10 petrol heading out there anyway.

However I have since got on to Dave in Evad IT, who's company got a very bad review in the Mac forum and he came on try to save himself and his company and said anyone can contact him and he'll help sort them out. So I PM'd him and he rang me within an hour or two, and is going to run full diags on it, charger, battery, the whole works, including some other 25 minute test that tests the entire computer, which Mactivate definitely didn't do. He also said that as its only just out of warranty he reckons he can push Apple to replace it, probably under the EU law that states all electronics must work for 2 years excluding consumables. Even though the battery is a consumable, it should be fit for purpose under the Sale of goods act. Everyone agrees a battery won't retain its full charge after 14 months, but it should retain a fairly decent amount of charge, which 2 minutes isn't. So hopefully he can help me, I'm heading over there tomorrow, he's a decent guy and if all goes well I'll give him a good review over at the Mac forum.

pwd

I got a replacement battery from dell after about 14 months, although in my case the laptop was still in warranty.
It didn't fail, but little popups kept coming up saying its lifetime was coming to an end and to replace it or something.
I said that a battery should last 18 months. They replaced it without quibble as far as I recall.
No idea whether they were required to do that, or if they just thought it was good pr to do so though.

alexlyons

All solved. See here

Thanks for all the help and suggestions