Judging CJH

trapsagenius

As a matter of interest, now that the years have gone on, what are the views of people on Charlie Haughey and his contribution to the country?Can we move past the one dimensional (albeit partially true) argument that he was just a crook and nothing else?I'm looking for a more layered argument.

He was a good minister-I don't think anyone denies this, in fairness.

His first 2 terms of Taoiseach-when he inherited the majority from Lynch, and the GUBU government-were disasters IMO.His free spending left a huge hole in the exchequer which was inexcusable.His republican rhetoric, while it was popular, did not really help matters in NI, either.

Although Garret Fitzgerald's government did absolutely nothing to get to grips with the crisis, again CJ takes some of the blame for following a completely populist line when in opposition.When you contrast his opposition with Dukes' selflessness, it reflects even worse on CJ.That said, the policy Fitzgerald followed of just taxing the siht out of everyone was fairly ridiculous, so I'd absolve him of some of the blame.

From 1987 until his retirement, he showed he hadn't lost his political talent and it cannot be underestimated what he did to help the country out of the economic hole it was in, via spending cuts and business initiatives, namely the IFSC. (Again Dukes deserves some credit for this).He also realised that to achieve peace in NI you have to bring the hardliners on board instead of trying to sideline them.He was probably the first leader in the south to do this, and therefore deserves kudos for his foresight.

So on the political front- a mixture of good and bad.Possibly slightly more good due to the fact the harsh economic medicine he dished out was so direly needed at the time.

BUT (and there's always a but)

The damage he did to Irish politics via his corruption and sleaze cannot be underestimated either.It set the tone for guys like Flynn, Lawlor, Burke et al.Truly disgraceful, it has to be said.

So all in all, I would argue when his corruption is factored into account it has to be said that CJ did more harm than good to Irish political life.You cannot overstate the damage he did to political standards in this country.

But enough from me-what do you think?

N.B-I deliberately left out things like his love of the charvet shirts and his affair(s?) and also the money he stole from Brian Lenihan Sr's medical fund because, while all these things might show what a cnut he was, they have little to do with his contribution to Irish political life.

ejmaztec

trapsagenius wrote: »

various shades of bad.

Post amended.

Ireland contributed a hell of a lot more to Haughey than he ever contributed to Ireland. He conned his way into political office and conned his way through political office. He should have been locked up.

One thing that he did do, was set the standard, and we're now paying the price.

SlabMurphy

trapsagenius wrote: »

The damage he did to Irish politics via his corruption and sleaze cannot be underestimated either.It set the tone for guys like Flynn, Lawlor, Burke et al.Truly disgraceful, it has to be said.

I personally believe he more than any other individual, dragged politics totally into the gutter. You rightly mentioned Flynn, Lawlor and Burke, but their were also other criminals such as Sean Doherty, Brian Lenihan snr. Ray McSharry etc And of course the great Bertie Ahern who was a junior memeber of the Haughey gang.

And that's the point I'd like to make, Ahern learned his trade form Haughey and co. Of course he was ably assisted by others including the PD's ( who used to claim they were " breaking the mould " in Irish politics :rolleyes: ). But Ahern and co. were spawned by Godfather Haughey. So in a way NAMA, Anglo, Irish Nationwide, Larry Goodman, the endless bribes in brown paper bags, gross expenses etc are Haughey's legacy to the nation :rolleyes:

Mind you, the Irish public that turned it's face to all of the above and STILL voted FF can take their share of the credit too. To elect such people as above with thier gross corruption and cronyism and then think they'd somehow run the country for the better of us all !!!! I never voted form FF ( or FG or Labour or Sickies etc ) but in a way, isn't the country reaping what they sowed.

( I can see this thread running for a while )

lord lucan

SlabMurphy wrote: »

I personally believe he more than any other individual, dragged politics totally into the gutter. You rightly mentioned Flynn, Lawlor and Burke, but their were also other criminals such as Sean Doherty, Brian Lenihan snr. Ray McSharry etc And of course the great Bertie Ahern who was a junior memeber of the Haughey gang.

And that's the point I'd like to make, Ahern learned his trade form Haughey and co. Of course he was ably assisted by others including the PD's ( who used to claim they were " breaking the mould " in Irish politics :rolleyes: ). But Ahern and co. were spawned by Godfather Haughey. So in a way NAMA, Anglo, Irish Nationwide, Larry Goodman, the endless bribes in brown paper bags, gross expenses etc are Haughey's legacy to the nation :rolleyes:

Mind you, the Irish public that turned it's face to all of the above and STILL voted FF can take their share of the credit too. To elect such people as above with thier gross corruption and cronyism and then think they'd somehow run the country for the better of us all !!!! I never voted form FF ( or FG or Labour or Sickies etc ) but in a way, isn't the country reaping what they sowed.

( I can see this thread running for a while )

+1

You summed exactly my thoughts on Haughey in that post.:cool:

MarchDub

TBH from a purely historic point of view he can't be properly "judged" until all the information, letters, papers etc. relating to his public life are released and available to historians. Until then it really is just a political discourse. He may well turn out to be exactly as he is described here -or he may be better - but one way or another IMO he is not yet a revealed historic figure.

ejmaztec

MarchDub wrote: »

TBH from a purely historic point of view he can't be properly "judged" until all the information, letters, papers etc. relating to his public life are released and available to historians. Until then it really is just a political discourse. He may well turn out to be exactly as he is described here -or he may be better - but one way or another IMO he is not yet a revealed historic figure.

I'm sure that someone somewhere would have leapt to his defence by now, to at least counter some of the bad press. I think the worst is yet to come.:eek:

Fuinseog

undeniably a crook, but we love crooks. no one wants an honest politican which is why we do not take enda K seriously.
CJ was well read unlike most of the politicans today. he could also speak.

a man of the arts who did a lot for the elderly and artists.

walrusgumble

What makes it worse about Haughey was many people knew what he was like or at least had suspicions back then. Its amazing how dermott morgan got it so right with his scrap saturday programme. Ironically (maybe) it kinda turned him into a cult. (yes I typed that correctly) Does it really say much for the other politicans who could not beat him? or was high ambition vicious?

One thing about Haughey, he was not boring. (I am writing this from a light hearted point of view, no point repeating views that i share as they were already stated) Jesus, he really tried to live up to the usual European Heads of State. Hillarious delusional attitude (Nepolean style)

Any cringe watching his documentary about Ireland in the 1980's when he was in opposition?, see youtube. Jesus people genuinely taught he was KING

Remember when he tried to hoge the limelight when Steven Roache won the Tour de France or when he suddenly realised he liked soccer by parading around ROME (where else?) at Italia 90.

Ye have all seen Pee Flynn on TV, especially (a) The Late Late Show (b) THe RTE documentary about Haughey done by Mint Productions. Was he for real, how did people put up with him?

Still, we always have scrap saturday

bob50

walrusgumble wrote: »

What makes it worse about Haughey was many people knew what he was like or at least had suspicions back then. Its amazing how dermott morgan got it so right with his scrap saturday programme. Ironically (maybe) it kinda turned him into a cult. (yes I typed that correctly) Does it really say much for the other politicans who could not beat him? or was high ambition vicious?

One thing about Haughey, he was not boring. (I am writing this from a light hearted point of view, no point repeating views that i share as they were already stated) Jesus, he really tried to live up to the usual European Heads of State. Hillarious delusional attitude (Nepolean style)

Any cringe watching his documentary about Ireland in the 1980's when he was in opposition?, see youtube. Jesus people genuinely taught he was KING

Remember when he tried to hoge the limelight when Steven Roache won the Tour de France or when he suddenly realised he liked soccer by parading around ROME (where else?) at Italia 90.

Ye have all seen Pee Flynn on TV, especially (a) The Late Late Show (b) THe RTE documentary about Haughey done by Mint Productions. Was he for real, how did people put up with him?

Still, we always have scrap saturday

great post I do indeed remember in 1987 in Paris when stehen roche won the Tour youd think Charlie won it !! and italia '90

But in fairness to him he told maggie thatcher were to get off at one of the eec summits And he broke broke off relations with england during the falklands / malvinas islands war When she ordered the argie sub the belgrano to be sunk even though it wasnt even near the conflict area killing all them innocent souls on board.

He was IMO not a boring dull taoisech like what we presently or have had in the recent past

UltimateMale

bob50 wrote: »

great post I do indeed remember in 1987 in Paris when stehen roche won the Tour youd think Charlie won it !! and italia '90

But in fairness to him he told maggie thatcher were to get off at one of the eec summits And he broke broke off relations with england during the falklands / malvinas islands war When she ordered the argie sub the belgrano to be sunk even though it wasnt even near the conflict area killing all them innocent souls on board.

He was IMO not a boring dull taoisech like what we presently or have had in the recent past

As for the Falklands ,Haughey was just doing the old FF saber rattling trick. No substance whatsoever in it, all symbolic. I remember when a young Tyrone man called Aiden McAnespie was murdered when he was walking to his club's GAA pitch which was on the southern side of the border. A British soldier claimed that the machine gun had accidentally gone off shooting him in the back. Anyway, Haughey was been questioned about various issues at a press conference and a journalist brought up Aiden McAnespie's murder and so Haughey expressed " concern " etc.

The journalist said that meek " expressions of concern " for almost 2 decades were obviously having no effect on the British govt and was it not time to put more pressure on the British govt to see such incidents were stopped or properly punished and that maybe the Irish govt. would start to remove Irish soldiers and Guards from guarding the border and raising issues at the European court and parliament etc And what does Haughey the great FF republican say ? " No, Anglo Irish relations were very good at the moment and their would be no point in upsetting them " :mad:

not bakunin

An absolute snake, but as was pointed out above, interesting for it. Who else would threaten the President's Aide de Camp with "I intend to roast your fucking arse if you don't put me through (to the President) immediately", state in a Hotpress interview that there were numerous members of his party that he would like to shove off a cliff and so ruthlessly suppress any attempts to challenge his leadership, as he did with O'Malley, McCreevy and others? It was like the fecking Politburo for a while! Looking back, it's clear that Haughey put a lot of spice into Irish life. He wasn't going to tone down his style just because those around him were too weak-willed or tame to stop him. A bastard, but a bloody fascinating one.

walrusgumble

not bakunin wrote: »

An absolute snake, but as was pointed out above, interesting for it. Who else would threaten the President's Aide de Camp with "I intend to roast your fucking arse if you don't put me through (to the President) immediately", state in a Hotpress interview that there were numerous members of his party that he would like to shove off a cliff and so ruthlessly suppress any attempts to challenge his leadership, as he did with O'Malley, McCreevy and others? It was like the fecking Politburo for a while! Looking back, it's clear that Haughey put a lot of spice into Irish life. He wasn't going to tone down his style just because those around him were too weak-willed or tame to stop him. A bastard, but a bloody fascinating one.

how did those in fianna fail not stop him though, that's what is frightening? It really does not say much for Fine Gael or Labour (though FG had their problems) The world and his mother knew that FF were divided.

Was it a case that Haughey had the grass root support and everyone knew it? (funny he never got that majority). Were the anti Haugheities really that concerned for their beloved party that to attack him would lead to the destruction of the party, or (worse for them) their jobs? It also says alot for those who supported him and how some, allegedly, would go to all lengths, like, oh say, nearly kill another TD outside the Dáil

I know its easy for a young fella to say all this or enjoy hindsight, but how come there was never really a serious coup, strong enough to destroy him. Had Ben Dunne not had his little problems in Florida, would Haughey have been caught out?

The guy had some sytle, he was a fighter (for himself) and he was, when he wanted to a charming a decent person, and when he did, was fully capable of showing the vast talents that he had, for the good. But its hard to see past the other crap that will probably seriously tarnish him.

CDfm

The first thing many people forget was the sheer magnetism of the man and his ability to get things done.

He was probably the last able minister for health and was known as a tough guy. Condoms anyone.The ireland he was Taoiseach of was financially bankrupt with huge social problems and emigration.So he was an experienced Minister and had some vision - like McSharry, Reynolds etc were bright and he knew it and kept them around him.

The next thing people forget was that his Opposition was poor. To put it bluntly his political Opponent was Garret Fitzgerald who was an academic who had run a state company. Haughey was more than his intellectual equal.Fine Gael failed to put Peter Barry in as leader who had more natural ability than Fitzgerald.

Even within the Fianna Fail party you had men like Colley and Hillery etc who were not afraid to stand up to him. The oppostion parties seemed like kids in short trousers in comparison.

He also coped with crises such as the Hunger Strikes and heavy republican activity in the south such as the Ben Dunne kidnapping.In that sense Haughey was a leader that was seen as someone who could deal these issues and the paramilitary organisations if in power where others could not.

I am not saying he was a saint but he did less damage then Fitzgerald did economically and adapted to policies such as the Anglo-Irish Agreement and worked them sucessfully.

I think his corruption is overstated and he undoubtedly tapped people for money. His huge problem was having achieved power was his problems holding on to it. The events that brought his downfall was the Attorney General affair and like the Brendan Smith affair that brought down Reynolds it was blown out of proportion.

Thats not saying I am a Haughey fan but he had more ability than our current leaders cross party and no as a Taoiseach he was not really sucessful but as a politician he was as he got into power.

Fratton Fred

bob50 wrote: »

And he broke broke off relations with england during the falklands / malvinas islands war When she ordered the argie sub the belgrano to be sunk even though it wasnt even near the conflict area killing all them innocent souls on board

SlabMurphy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm afraid I have to agree with Fred. Never broke off relations with Thatcher. In fact I remember him giving Thatcher a silver tea pot back around then - serious What a Gombeen

SlabMurphy

CDfm wrote: »

The first thing many people forget was the sheer magnetism of the man and his ability to get things done.

He was probably the last able minister for health and was known as a tough guy. Condoms anyone.The ireland he was Taoiseach of was financially bankrupt with huge social problems and emigration.So he was an experienced Minister and had some vision - like McSharry, Reynolds etc were bright and he knew it and kept them around him.

The next thing people forget was that his Opposition was poor. To put it bluntly his political Opponent was Garret Fitzgerald who was an academic who had run a state company. Haughey was more than his intellectual equal.Fine Gael failed to put Peter Barry in as leader who had more natural ability than Fitzgerald.

Even within the Fianna Fail party you had men like Colley and Hillery etc who were not afraid to stand up to him. The oppostion parties seemed like kids in short trousers in comparison.

He also coped with crises such as the Hunger Strikes and heavy republican activity in the south such as the Ben Dunne kidnapping.In that sense Haughey was a leader that was seen as someone who could deal these issues and the paramilitary organisations if in power where others could not.

I am not saying he was a saint but he did less damage then Fitzgerald did economically and adapted to policies such as the Anglo-Irish Agreement and worked them sucessfully.

Have to agree with you, Fitzgerald was a complete bumbling idiot. Not in the same league as Haughey of course, he did enjoy the banks scrapping his debts also. So much for Garret the good.

I think his corruption is overstated and he undoubtedly tapped people for money. His huge problem was having achieved power was his problems holding on to it. The events that brought his downfall was the Attorney General affair and like the Brendan Smith affair that brought down Reynolds it was blown out of proportion.

Thats not saying I am a Haughey fan but he had more ability than our current leaders cross party and no as a Taoiseach he was not really sucessful but as a politician he was as he got into power.

" I think his corruption is overstated " :eek: I think his corruption couldn't possibly be overstated. Of all the things he did I'd say his squandering of his so called lifetime best friend Brian Lenihan's money collected from the FF party faithful for a specialist operation in the states took the bisquit ( not that I would have any sympathy for Lenihan as he'd do the same for Haughey ). And the Attorney General affair happened in 1982, he retired in 1992, most unfortunately it did not bring about his downfall earlier.

Maybe we should copy the English when they dug up Cromwell's body and give him a public hanging and do the same for Haughey :mad:

CDfm

SlabMurphy wrote: »

" I think his corruption is overstated " :eek: I think his corruption couldn't possibly be overstated. Of all the things he did I'd say his squandering of his so called lifetime best friend Brian Lenihan's money collected from the FF party faithful for a specialist operation in the states took the bisquit ( not that I would have any sympathy for Lenihan as he'd do the same for Haughey ). And the Attorney General affair happened in 1982, he retired in 1992, most unfortunately it did not bring about his downfall earlier.

Maybe we should copy the English when they dug up Cromwell's body and give him a public hanging and do the same for Haughey :mad:

LOL

This is a fun thread. I think we are innocent ,there is a saying "you get the politicians you deserve" -look at the choice we had.

He was absolutely without shame or scrupples and a lot of what he did was criminal. The Lenehan money was a con -did he ever say why he hung on to it " ah sure -by the time we got it -it was inoperable"

That does not mean that as a politician he was corrupt ie in a cash for favours way except with AIB and the enemy comment which was a gangster style threat.

What amazes me about the tribunals is not that Irish Politicians took bribes but how cheap they were.

On the teapot, I seem to remember Garret giving a sugarbowl. What came first the sugarbowl or the teapot.

Breaking of diplomatic relations - did he recall diplomats or did he just stop not talking to people who were not talking to him??

The Attorney General thing sort of overshadowed him. Conor Cruise O'Brien coined the GUBU phrase as a journalist and was also a politician. Isnt it amazing how petty our politicians were.