Can a shop keeper refuse your laser card if its for a small amount?

bob2oo7

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

I never carry cash

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Can anyone advise?

If he cannot refuse me, I'm going to go to that shop every time I need something and pay for it by laser....

If I have no rights... then CRAP :mad:

novarock

they are entitled to set a minimum, As far as I know its because they get charged 45 cent a transaction for laser. At the end of the day they are not obliged to even have a machine unfortunately...

MistyCheese

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

Q: Is there a minimum Laser transaction amount for Laser transactions?

A: No, there is no minimum transaction value.

XxMCRxBabyxX

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

That only means that if you have a laser card there's no minimum spend. It doesn't mean shops cannot set a minimum spend as many do.

Afaik it is in their right to set a minimum. I can't imagine as many shops would have a minimum otherwise

You might be interested in this as well

testicle

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

I fail to see the legal bit?

keithclancy

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

By Lasers policy you mean, Legally he can do what he likes i.e. set a minimum spend for Laser.

topper75

It's not legal tender so there is no obligation to accept this form of payment at all.

The euro notes and coins are the only legal tender we have in Ireland.

Legal tender = Legally valid currency that may be offered in payment of a debt and that a creditor must accept.

So, in effect, retailer is doing you a favour by accepting anything else such as credit cards, debit cards, cheques, bankdrafts, vouchers, stamps etc.

whippet

bob2oo7 wrote: »

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

if the retailer has to pay 45c on each laser transaction and if he was a very lucky retailer who can make 10% net profit, he would actually loose money doing business with you.

For arguments sake:

Total purchases €3.55 (incl VAT @ 21%) = €2.93 (ex VAT)

if the retailer was lucky enough to make 10% net margin (after factoring in all overheads - rent, light, heat, wages, insurance etc) his costs would be:

€2.67 (ex VAT). Giving a profit of 26c.

Take away the 45c that is costs to process the laser card and he has a net loss of 19c

complicit

@ OP

Don't be an ass .

It's his shop , he makes the rules .

judas101

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

ttm

Yes the retailer has to accept it but no one is going to do anything about it if he doesn't :pac:

The retailer wants to attract customers - who spend more than you - so accepts laser, in signing up with laser he agrees to their terms and conditions which include no minimum spend. So techincally he is breaking that contract with the card company, but as I said who is going to do anything about it.

Sounds like a retailer to be avoided anyway, taking a lose on those transactions is just part of business, obviously you don't want to many of them but part of retailing is keeping the customers happy

brianwalshcork

judas101 wrote: »

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

Does my head in also, but I don't agree that we should have to use paper notes and coins for small transactions - we just need a faster system - debit & credit card transactions just take too long to process.

XxMCRxBabyxX

ttm wrote: »

The retailer wants to attract customers - who spend more than you - so accepts laser, in signing up with laser he agrees to their terms and conditions which include no minimum spend. So techincally he is breaking that contract with the card company, but as I said who is going to do anything about it.

Do you personally have the laser terms and conditions that say this, because otherwise you have no solid proof in your argument as far as i'm concerned. All we know is that laser say on their website that there is no set minimum spend. We haven't seen anything that says a shop cannot set a minimum spend.

squidgey

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

Joey the lips

MistyCheese wrote: »

Legally, no.

From http://www.lasercard.ie/faq.asp?id=83#q55

That does not stop the shopkeeper refusing it. As far as i am aware a shop keeper can refuse any other form of payment than cash.

Shop keepers pay commision on every laser and visa transaction. It has been estimated that the adverage card transaction needs to be at least 10 euro to justify the comission.

ttm

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Just wondering how anyone other than a mugger can force you to take money out of an ATM? Did you end up paying a transaction fee for using the ATM?

Why didn't you just walk away and leave the shop, even if you bought a sandwich or a coffee (massive profit margin) then you can still leave them and walk away.

VERYinterested

Those ATMs in shops cost the retailer about 10 grand a year to rent :eek: I think he should get rid of the ATM and take the rough with the smooth and accept Laser, swings and roundabouts, cashless society and all that, keep customers sweet! It'd be something else if the op tried to pay with a €50 note.

joewicklow

For 3 years I used a shop close to my office to buy a sandwich and maybe a bag of crisps at lunch time. The average spend was €5 or €6. One of the lads from the office always came with me and spent the same.
We took turns in buying lunch so any time I used Laser the transaction was about €12.
About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

€12 per day at least 4 days a week for 46 or 47 weeks a year.

Thats over €2k off that shops turnover.

XxMCRxBabyxX

joewicklow wrote: »

For 3 years I used a shop close to my office to buy a sandwich and maybe a bag of crisps at lunch time. The average spend was €5 or €6. One of the lads from the office always came with me and spent the same.
We took turns in buying lunch so any time I used Laser the transaction was about €12.
About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

€12 per day at least 4 days a week for 46 or 47 weeks a year.

Thats over €2k off that shops turnover.

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

yoyo

Happened me before in centra, only had around 16 euro in the bank and their ATM only gave out 20s so I had to buy my cans using laser, the cans came to 7 something for the 6 and I had to buy a bar to reach their min laser ammount of 8 quid, bit of a nuisance but I'm fairly sure they have the right to do it

Nick

Penn

I've been stung by the minimum charge thing before, after not realising I had no money in my wallet, but I fail to see how its a big deal and I would certainly not refuse to go into their shop again. As well as the charge they occur for you using your laser card, there is also the fact that it takes longer. I know I'd be annoyed if I spent ages waiting in line while someone buys the paper and a Roy of the Rovers bar with a laser card.

A minimum of €10 seems entirely reasonable to me

fatboypee

I find this thread remarkably amusing. Cash for small transactions ?!

Errrrmmm WHY ???

I travel Europe and Scandinavia extensively with work. Almost everywhere I go (with the exception of here and the UK), nobody has any issue using cards for all transactions. No min spend, no transaction fees passed on, no credit card fees....

Its only here (and the UK) who have yet to emerge from the bl00dy dark ages.
I for one balk at the idea that people (like Ryanair and min charge retaillers) can actively charge me for accessing my money via the use of a card. Whatever the reason for these charges, in my view, its one thing that is seriously holding this economy back.

dudara

These policies can be a nuisance, but they wouldn't put me off a shop or say that I'm not going there again.

The simple fact is that the retailer has to pay for having the laser facility as well as paying per transaction. Therefore a transaction needs to have a certain monetary value for it to be worth the retailer's while.

In fairness, we should have a proper e-purse system here or else, reduce/eliminate the laser fees.

P. Breathnach

ttm wrote: »

Yes the retailer has to accept it but no one is going to do anything about it if he doesn't :pac:
...

That's a strong claim. Except for some particular situations, a retailer is not obliged to deal with you even on a cash basis.

topper75

squidgey wrote: »

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Worth knowing as well that legally, if there is a pricetag of €9.99 on an item in a store, that you are actually inviting the store owner to accept €9.99 as your offer when you place it on the counter. The store owner then decides to accept or reject your offer. Of course I have never in my lifetime seen them refuse!
People usualy think that the pricetag is the store owner inviting you to pay that price for it. Not so. The legal term is 'invitation to treat'.

Yakuza

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

It's no one's problem but yours that you can't hold on to cash in your wallet.

bob2oo7 wrote: »

Can anyone advise?

Here's my advice: Try a bit of self-discipline, keep a small amount of cash with you and don't be bothering shopkeepers with your plastic for small transactions.

uncleoswald

I don't see why it has to be like this. In New Zealand (and I'm sure elsewhere) you can use your ATM card (not Laser) to pay for anything, any amount. I doesn't actually take any time and lots of people don't really carry money. In fact their smallest coin is a 5c.

Yakuza

Until the banks stop charging on a per-transaction basis (and do you think a bank is going to give up an income stream like that, these days?), or a better micropayment system (integrated into mobile phones or smart cards for example) is rolled out, it's what we're stuck with.

I agree it's not perfect but I think it's handy to have a small amount of cash on me for small purchases. Personally, anything over €20 and it's on the plastic, otherwise I use cash.

ScouseMouse

Just this minute, I had a guy trying to pay for a one day bus ticket with a laser card.

The ticket gives me 4%. That gives me 24 cent.

Out of this I have to pay the staff member etc etc etc.

The laser card would have cost me that in fees not to mention the laser machine, the phone line and the broadband.

I declined the card - so he handed me a fifty euro note.

Problem solved.

Do the maths.

P. Breathnach

superscouse wrote: »

Just this minute, I had a guy trying to pay for a one day bus ticket with a laser card.

The ticket gives me 4%. That gives me 24 cent.

Out of this I have to pay the staff member etc etc etc.

The laser card would have cost me that in fees not to mention the laser machine, the phone line and the broadband.

I declined the card - so he handed me a fifty euro note.

Problem solved.

Do the maths.

I hope you gave him change!

johnnyjb

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

Thats correct and he doesnt owe them his custom either. How many shops and deli's are there now, take your business else where. Ive ntoiced over the last few years since alot of small corner shops have been put out of business from bigger shops customer service has gone to the dogs.

Your local shop keeper might leave you off if you were short 1 cent and help you in this laser card incident. Lots of shops are full of foreign nationals who could care less if your spending 10 euro a day and keeping them in a job. its like the walmart situation in the states