Can a shop keeper refuse your laser card if its for a small amount?

ScouseMouse

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I hope you gave him change!

D'oh.

I knew I forgot something.

:D:D

spiderpig2k7

My parents own a medium sized retail newsagents. I'm the one who looks after all our IT and the Credit Card Machine comes under that.

The machine is actually costing a huge amount of money and causing a lot of hassle.

i.e.

Rental of the Machines €15 per month per machine (cheapest i've been able to get, other companies charge up to €30)
Merchant Bank Account €30 per month
Phone Line/Broadband €50 per month- used for other things aswell but its still required

Each transaction costs up to 50c and then the bank charge 2.5-3.5% of the money you take in with credit/debit cards.

When you add all this up, you need to be doing a hell of alot of transactions to even break even with the machine.

I can understand consumers frustration but the costs and charges facing retailers is huge. Again its the bloody banks and payment solution people that make all the money, screwing everyone. I do agree that we need to come up with a system that doesn't involve as much charges and that is way faster, but Ireland is behind the times and won't see it for 5 years imo!

Speak Now

squidgey wrote: »

Similar to the often asked question can a shop refuse a €100 note because it's legal tender.

Legal tender applies only in situations where money is owed. An example would be you want to buy €12 worth of goods in spar and they won't accept a €100. So you leave the goods there and go off and do business with another store.

Then for example you go to Eddie Rockets and order and eat €12 worth of food. Then you wish to pay with €100 note. In that case they must accept the note as payment for the consumed goods ,but they are not under any obligation to give you change.

:eek: no change, i know Eddie's is expensive but WTF

91011

spiderpig2k7 wrote: »

i.e.

Rental of the Machines €15 per month per machine (cheapest i've been able to get, other companies charge up to €30)
Merchant Bank Account €30 per month
Phone Line/Broadband €50 per month- used for other things aswell but its still required

Each transaction costs up to 50c and then the bank charge 2.5-3.5% of the money you take in with credit/debit cards.

When you add all this up, you need to be doing a hell of alot of transactions to even break even with the machine.

!

I'd suggest you haggle a bit with your mercant provider or switch.

Maximum you should be paying is

€15 / month rental
2% on credit card transactions
20c on laser transactions
No monthly fee

If you are doing any volume you can get credit cards to 1.25%, 12c on laser & €10 on the machine.

Try www.Luceytechnology.com for a different option!

Dublindude69

Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »

:eek: no change, i know Eddie's is expensive but WTF

This caught my eye as well, explain the no change bit again?

Also at work we've been told not to take in €100 and higher any more due to the amound of fakes coming in. Apperently the fakes are so good they can't be detected by the pens.

Cabaal

judas101 wrote: »

I hate when people want to pay for a newspaper or cup of coffe with a laser.

money for small transactions ffs!

Whats more annoying is these people hold up the Q in the shop as they try to remember their PIN and then everyone has to wait for the card machine to complete the transaction.....just pay with money ffs!

joewicklow

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

If they have a minimum charge, that's their policy. You can't expect them to just forgoe policy and profits for you because you give them your custom. They don't owe you anything

I dont owe them anything either. Thats why I go elsewhere now.

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

calex71

Pet hate of mine is someone using a Lazercard when there is an atm in the shop :mad:

I go to a busy shop several times a week and regularly see this, people trying to use a card when there is a sign clearly stating a €10 minimum spend and then proceed to argue with the assistant.

To be fair to the shop they will wave the minimum spend when the ATM is out of action.

jennnn

I recently put just under 6 euro on my laser card in a chemist and they'd no problem with it. If there's a minimum spend for the transaction to take place, surely they should advertise this and save themselves losing customers?

macy9

How does the retailer have to accept it? Surely basic contract law puts this type of transaction as offeree and offeror. The customer makes an offer which the shopkeeper can accept or reject. In this instance he rejected it.

gerrycollins

i dont have a min spend in my shop but I do cringe at the fellas whe get a bar and a bottle of drink on their laser jesus most people have some cash on them.

I found my business has taken off as the other shop in town does have a min laser spend and charges for top up(i dont). Thankfully i have a great deal with my bank but its up for renewal next month better start haggling.

borderlinemeath

joewicklow wrote: »

I dont owe them anything either. Thats why I go elsewhere now.

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

Just because the guy knew you to see, you feel entitled to have store policy waived (that he more than likely has no control over)
A bit petty imo.

blahhh

I work in a shop and we used to say that, we didn't accept cards for transactions under €8, people used to get in such a huff and a lot of times it was people with a paper and a mars bar ffs!

Now the policy is that if your transaction is less than €10 a surcharge of 20c will be added to your total. Most people find it fair but you get the few that shout and call you every name under the sun... over 20c.

I hate the saying "the customer is always right"...

ScouseMouse

blahhh wrote: »

I work in a shop and we used to say that, we didn't accept cards for transactions under €8, people used to get in such a huff and a lot of times it was people with a paper and a mars bar ffs!

Now the policy is that if your transaction is less than €10 a surcharge of 20c will be added to your total. Most people find it fair but you get the few that shout and call you every name under the sun... over 20c.

I hate the saying "the customer is always right"...

I have to agree completely on that. There is always one and the customer is not always right.

dxhound2005

bob2oo7 wrote: »

€3.55 this morning

The shop keep refused to take my laser as he wouldnt make much "profit"

I never carry cash

Main reason is if I have cash, I will spend it. Its a recession and I cant afford to be taking (like in most ATM's) a minimum of €20 out each time will leave me with cash in my wallet that I will spend a lot easier

Anywhoo, he made me take €20 out of the ATM. I was in a hurry, I put up a bit of a fight but didnt have time to argue and also wasnt sure of my consumer rights on this one

Can anyone advise?

If he cannot refuse me, I'm going to go to that shop every time I need something and pay for it by laser....

If I have no rights... then CRAP :mad:

I don't understand this compulsion to spend any cash you have. What would you spend it on, all you needed was whatever you paid the €3.55 for.

rubadub

Joey the lips wrote: »

That does not stop the shopkeeper refusing it. As far as i am aware a shop keeper can refuse any other form of payment than cash.

I thought shop keepers could refuse cash too, invitation to treat and all that.

joewicklow wrote: »

About a month ago I went in on my own and had a sandwich made. The price was €4.50 but when I went to the till and tried to pay the chap behind the counter said the minimum charge with laser was €5 so I needed to buy something else in order for the payment to be made with the card.
I told him he could keep the sambo and I walked out of the shop.

I will never go near that shop again and because I wont go there my colleague will not go either.

Biting off your nose to spite your face there, but people who always pay cash may be glad to see you go, they are in effect subsidising your laser transactions, if everybody paid cash the shop could lower its prices and make the same profit, I like to see shops who do not accept laser. I make a point of paying by CC online when places offer paypal or CC, since I might want to do repeat business and so want them to maximise their profits.

joewicklow wrote: »

The guy in the shop knew I went there every day and in the majority of cases I paid with cash.
I do feel sorry for the shops who cannot afford the machines but at the same time the shop that refused my purchase is now losing over 2k a year over €0.50 cent!

The guy probably had no choice as mentioned, could be computerised to not accept it or could have got disciplined if he did. Also the shop is not losing 2K a year, it is 2K a year of sales, not profit, also for your laser transactions the shop had to fork out money. You are trying to make the shop sound petty for doing this "over 50cent" but you are the one spiting yourself over 50cent.

Joey the lips

rubadub wrote: »

I thought shop keepers could refuse cash too, invitation to treat and all that.


.

Your confusing contract law(Invitation to treat) with methods of payment or reward.

rubadub

Joey the lips wrote: »

Your confusing contract law(Invitation to treat) with methods of payment or reward.

Well I don't know what it falls under but I thought a shopkeeper could refuse to sell you stuff no matter what.

noodler

rubadub wrote: »

Biting off your nose to spite your face there, but people who always pay cash may be glad to see you go, they are in effect subsidising your laser transactions, if everybody paid cash the shop could lower its prices and make the same profit, I like to see shops who do not accept laser. I make a point of paying by CC online when places offer paypal or CC, since I might want to do repeat business and so want them to maximise their profits.

What so everyone is paying 0.0001c more per item because of this guy?

Jesus, now come on!

Joey the lips

rubadub wrote: »

Well I don't know what it falls under but I thought a shopkeeper could refuse to sell you stuff no matter what.

A shop keeper cannot refuse to sell you something on display without a good reason. For example

1. None in stock
2.Not happy at the display price. This is not yet a contract price for those who are going to pull me
3. Your underage or not qualified to handle the goods... eg explosives. alcohol


There are a few other

If a shop keeper refuses to sell you goods because the dont like you this brings in a whole set of discrimination laws... Think travellers rights

Magenta

Joey the lips wrote: »

A shop keeper cannot refuse to sell you something on display without a good reason. For example

1. None in stock
2.Not happy at the display price. This is not yet a contract price for those who are going to pull me
3. Your underage or not qualified to handle the goods... eg explosives. alcohol


There are a few other

If a shop keeper refuses to sell you goods because the dont like you this brings in a whole set of discrimination laws... Think travellers rights

I think you are incorrect here. The shop is private property and they can do as they like as long as they are not breaking any laws. By your logic, if a black person walked in just as a shop was closing, they would *have* to be served or the shop would be at risk of being accused of racism.
In addition, a shop can bar you if they like- again, it's their private property.

ScouseMouse

Magenta wrote: »

I think you are incorrect here. The shop is private property and they can do as they like as long as they are not breaking any laws. By your logic, if a black person walked in just as a shop was closing, they would *have* to be served or the shop would be at risk of being accused of racism.
In addition, a shop can bar you if they like- again, it's their private property.

Thats about right.

There are several catergories . (From memory) travellers, gender, race, sexual orientation, marital status and religion. May be more but thats all I can remember.

You can, and I have, refused entry or service without giving a reason. As long as the store can explain it was for another reason, there is no comeback. Worked in shops for 15 years and its never been challenged.

macy9

I would suggest that this is brought to the legal discussion forum since the pseudo legal advice being given here is completely misguided.

joewicklow

rubadub wrote: »

I thought shop keepers could refuse cash too, invitation to treat and all that.


Biting off your nose to spite your face there, but people who always pay cash may be glad to see you go, they are in effect subsidising your laser transactions, if everybody paid cash the shop could lower its prices and make the same profit, I like to see shops who do not accept laser. I make a point of paying by CC online when places offer paypal or CC, since I might want to do repeat business and so want them to maximise their profits.

The guy probably had no choice as mentioned, could be computerised to not accept it or could have got disciplined if he did. Also the shop is not losing 2K a year, it is 2K a year of sales, not profit, also for your laser transactions the shop had to fork out money. You are trying to make the shop sound petty for doing this "over 50cent" but you are the one spiting yourself over 50cent.

I dont see it as spiting myself. If the shop does not want my business so be it. There are plenty of other places in the area that will make a sandwich for me.

I agree that the shop is only losing 2k of turnover, not profit. At the same time I would like to see the shop make profit without turnover!

The customer is not always right but at the same time always has a right to make a choice where they decide to go based on several factors including but not limited to price, quality, service, & location.
In this case I was not happy with one of the factors so now go elsewhere.

amdublin

joewicklow wrote: »

There are plenty of other places in the area that will make a sandwich for me.

Yes, and chances are if the sandwich costs €4.50 they won't accept your laser either and you'll have to pay cash to them also



I was not aware of the charges behind laser transactions for the merchant but now that I've read this thread the minimum spend makes perfect sense to me.

borderlinemeath

joewicklow wrote: »

I dont see it as spiting myself. If the shop does not want my business so be it. There are plenty of other places in the area that will make a sandwich for me.

If you're the type to quibble over a few cent why don't you make your own sandwiches?? Much cheaper altogether.
It would stop you're whinging about the shopkeepers taking your money for nothing.

Spanish Eyes

If the minimum spend is X (because to accept a smaller amount the retailer loses profit because of bank charges), then a surcharge of whatever should be added to a laser transaction. Why should a shop owner lose money because you have no cash!!

I cannot understand how someone goes in to a shop to buy a paper and a packet of crisps and uses laser. OK for anything over 10-20 euro. The time it takes for 2 or 3 euro is gas.

Anyway, here, in Ireland, until the "smart economy" LOL comes in, Laser is for larger trans, cash is for the crisps and the 7up. And I don't blame the retailer.

If you were charged 50c for laser trans under 10 euro, you wouldn't use it either.

Alun

To solve this problem in the Netherlands they have system called ChipKnip for small amounts where you load up an electronic purse on your card at the ATM. There is no network connection required so everything goes very quickly, and no charge to the shop. Effectively what happens is that the charge simply gets debited from the ChipKnip to the shops card machine, and whenever it makes a connection for a normal payment, it piggybacks the transfer of whatever amount has accumulated in the meantime to the shops account. Simples.

rubadub

noodler wrote: »

What so everyone is paying 0.0001c more per item because of this guy?

Jesus, now come on!

0.0001c would be the increase if only an extremely tiny amount of people paid by laser.

If 20% of people paid by laser, and if it costed 50cent per transaction then the profit from every single customer would have to increase by 10cent to cover this. I do not like subsidising these people -that is what I am getting at. I think people have given the banks enough money already and should think before using "free services". This is the problem, people do not think they are paying for it but they always are indirectly, it is like the scumbag vandal who kicks wing mirrors off cars and then wonders why his car insurance is so high.

joewicklow wrote: »

I dont see it as spiting myself. If the shop does not want my business so be it.

I expect the shop does want your business, they did not bar you from the shop, you are free to return again and from what you were saying before it seems you liked this shop so its a strange that you have decided not to return over something so ridiculously petty.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

If the minimum spend is X (because to accept a smaller amount the retailer loses profit because of bank charges), then a surcharge of whatever should be added to a laser transaction. Why should a shop owner lose money because you have no cash!!

+1, should be simply added to the price, I am sick of paying for other people.

keithclancy

Alun wrote: »

To solve this problem in the Netherlands they have system called ChipKnip for small amounts where you load up an electronic purse on your card at the ATM. There is no network connection required so everything goes very quickly, and no charge to the shop. Effectively what happens is that the charge simply gets debited from the ChipKnip to the shops card machine, and whenever it makes a connection for a normal payment, it piggybacks the transfer of whatever amount has accumulated in the meantime to the shops account. Simples.

Except nobody uses it now because ChipKnip was seen as a competitor to PIN so they just reduced the cost of PIN instead.

They even have the slogan "Kleine Bedrag, Pinnen Mag" (Small Amount, You can pin)

http://www.pin.nl/nl-NL/Consument/Campagnes/Pages/KleinbedragPINnenmag.aspx

I rarely use my ChipKnip at all .. its a great idea though.

the OV-Chipkaart is dead handy though, load it up and you never need to buy a bus/train ticket again

Until you forget to checkout and get charged the maximum fare, doh !

Everytime I go back to Ireland the shop assistant always confuses the hell out of me trying to take my card to put it in the machine for me !