P&D Advanced marathoning

Dave_

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It's a tough plan for a beginner. Your current LSR distance is just an easy run in the middle of the week in a P&D program. You would really need to up your long runs (which will also help with your overall weekly mileage). The 12 week 55mpw program I followed recently started with the following (in the first week):

Tuesday: 8 Miles with 10x100m strides
Thursday: 9 Miles Aerobic
Saturday: 10k race (not part of the program - was probably 6 Miles easy)
Sunday: 13 Miles, with 8 Miles @PMP

So just in terms of comfort levels, you should be in a position to run the first week of training, by the time you get to the first week of the plan (e.g. 35 miles per week, with 6-8 miles at planned marathon pace). That's quite a sizeable gap from where you are right now. Assuming that you are planning an 18 week marathon program, that really doesn't give you a lot of time to build up to the basic P&D program. I really don't know you're background so it's all guesswork on my part. Would you consider following a less advanced program first time around?

Thanks Krusty, good advise.

Does hit home when you realise that my long run now must become my midweek run by week one of the schedule! Will keep plugging away and try and keep on safely building up towards that level and see how its going in 6 weeks. Will have a look then at what kind of schedule to follow.

heffsarmy

I used Daniels for my last marathon and will definitely go with it again. Alot of his quality sessions are run at tempo pace, I got used to this pace after a few sessions, which made my marathon pace seem easy. His quality session definitely made me a stronger runner and my legs got used to running at a faster pace even with plenty off miles in the legs, an example 22miles - 2 1/2mile warm up + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 10miles Easy + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 2 1/2mile cooldown. When I look back on the marathon my fastest splits were in the last 10miles. I'll be using this program for Amsterdam 2010 were I'll be chasing sub 2.35.

Peckham

hhmm that's two strong recommendations for Daniels. Not hugely familiar with his approach, so have ordered the book to see what I can learn from it.

As things stand at the moment, I'm in the camp of a hybrid P&D-tergat approach for Berlin.....focus will be on the faster long runs, so heffsarmy's mention of the Daniel's session above catches my attention.

ronanmac

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

This is for workouts. So training at current 5K pace is a lot faster than your target marathon pace. This is true of your half-marathon pace too (assuming that you have run one recently).

For other sessions you train at planned marathon pace, or at planned pace plus an off-set.

shels4ever wrote: »

@ current race pace you are dong these workout during a full week training, he reaso they are at this pace is to make you acustom to running at this speed. The way you stress your body allow it to recover and then adapt to this pace. In propper format this will then allow you to race faster...

Okay, once it's pointed out to me, it's painfully obvious . My training programme uses best half marathon time for predicted marathon time, and the best 5k time to set paces. So using them, it's forcing me along all the time. No wonder I'm struggling to keep up with the schedule, when I'm upping the pace on myself :o Cheers for the answers

seanynova

heffsarmy wrote: »

I used Daniels for my last marathon and will definitely go with it again. Alot of his quality sessions are run at tempo pace, I got used to this pace after a few sessions, which made my marathon pace seem easy. His quality session definitely made me a stronger runner and my legs got used to running at a faster pace even with plenty off miles in the legs, an example 22miles - 2 1/2mile warm up + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 10miles Easy + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 2 1/2mile cooldown. When I look back on the marathon my fastest splits were in the last 10miles. I'll be using this program for Amsterdam 2010 were I'll be chasing sub 2.35.

Heff,
Is this the book?

http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack/dp/0736054928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199825114&sr=8-1

heffsarmy

seanynova wrote: »

Heff,
Is this the book?

http://www.amazon.com/Daniels-Running-Formula-Jack/dp/0736054928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199825114&sr=8-1

Thats the book seanynova

village runner

heffsarmy wrote: »

I used Daniels for my last marathon and will definitely go with it again. Alot of his quality sessions are run at tempo pace, I got used to this pace after a few sessions, which made my marathon pace seem easy. His quality session definitely made me a stronger runner and my legs got used to running at a faster pace even with plenty off miles in the legs, an example 22miles - 2 1/2mile warm up + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 10miles Easy + 4 x (5min Tempo + 1min Rest) + 2 1/2mile cooldown. When I look back on the marathon my fastest splits were in the last 10miles. I'll be using this program for Amsterdam 2010 were I'll be chasing sub 2.35.

Would you try the Elite one Heff ?? As tungska pointed out its a monster......
Yes its very important now to make sure my tempo is the right pace........Probaly better to error on the side of caution and do them slower rather than quicker.......Havent had a proper 10 miler when i was 100 per cent in a year so should i go with that time or increase it to what i think it is. Only 8 seconds a mile of an increase but 6.15s would seem a little easy.........Recently done 8 x 6.12s and it felt comfortable enough....Maybe 6.07 would be a fair number.......
Anyone advise mixing the two programs ??
Heff from 12 weeks to the marathon there is not one interval session. I suppose two races would sort that but would you not lose speed ?? Based on your marathon and been so strong in the 2nd half i doubt it.
typical me to veer off the thread.
I would hope to start it at 18 weeks which would give me 6 weeks of intervals. When it says 4 min hard are we talking 5k pace ???

heffsarmy

village runner wrote: »

Would you try the Elite one Heff ?? As tungska pointed out its a monster......

I had a look at it last night some tough sessions in it, no pain no gain;)

village runner wrote: »

Heff from 12 weeks to the marathon there is not one interval session.

The last 12weeks are marathon specific training, I think tergat also pointed this out a while ago when giving advice on marathon training. I read somewere that ideally you should start a marathon off the back off a 10km program, so speed should'nt be an issue. I have'nt done any speed work, going to join a club next week, hopefully they will introduce me to some speed sessions.

heffsarmy

village runner wrote: »

When it says 4 min hard are we talking 5k pace ???

I also found this a bit confusing as all the other paces were specific, I think I ran this around the 5k pace at the time.

seanynova

heffsarmy wrote: »

Thats the book seanynova

Cheers,
Based on your recent marathon, its well worth a look!

seanynova

I picked up a P&D book today and had a look at the training schedules...from what I gather, people have had great sucess with this book with the taining schedules they followed.....but.....

I feel that most of the training is at general aerobic pace & med/long run pace, with 1 session of LT training/week and and when not doing LT training its 1 session of VO2 workout/week.

I'm no running expert(in fact im very new to the sport), but this seams a little low on the intensity side.
I did read that VO2 max workouts are not the primary workout for marathon training, and I understand that, but would more LT pace runs be more benificial?
Also, there are 4 LSR with race pace, again would more of these be more benificial?

One week that looks low for exapmle, 10weeks into training, following a "recovery week"
From 55-70mpw week 7
Mon: Rest or cross train
Tues: Recovery 6m am / 4m pm (Why recovery runs after a day rest?)
Wed: 15m med long run
Thurs: 5m recovery
Fri: 12m with 7m @ LT
Sat: 5m recovery
Sun:22m LSR

OK, it sounds like Im knocking the book and the training schedules, I'm not(or at least not trying to) because I have read about the sucess of these training schedules on the site but I expected more...

Any enlightment on this, or can any "Daniels running formula" trainers shed some light on the training schedules in that book as compared to P&D?

Thanks,

Krusty_Clown

The purpose of recovery runs is exactly that - to stimulate recovery (blood flow etc), which you won't get fully from a day of rest/cross training. Recovery from the LSR the previous Sunday, and recovery for the following day (a 15 mile aerobic run). The reason it's split over two sessions is that a 10 mile recovery run would be counter-productive.

There is a lot of aerobic running in the 55-70, 70-85 and 85+ programs, but you'd expect that in the higher mileage programs. The week you listed is one of the peak mileage weeks (70 miles) which might explain why there aren't two 'sessions' that week. If you look at the two weeks following the one you listed:
Week 6: Tuesday-V02max......Saturday-8k-15k race
Week 5: Tuesday-V02max......Sunday-18m w/14 @PMP (the second 70mpw week)

I followed the 55mpw 12 week program, and did a 20, 21 and 22 mile LSR (program called for just 2x20), and finished all of my LSRs at faster than PMP (none of which is prescribed). Like any program, it's a starting point, a menu, where you take what you want and supplement or remove different elements. Now it sounds like I'm defending P&D, which I don't mean to. As someone pointed out previously, it's designed to appeal to the largest cross-section of runners, so will definitely not appeal to all.

seanynova

I get what you mean about the recovery and it didnt click with me that the mileage was high that week....

I'm going to keep the book anyway, has some good info regarding how much water to drink(or how much is enough useful water to drink!) and nutrition etc....
It's helping me plan my gel/fuel strategies for next weekend!

I'm sure if I keep reading, I'll pick up a few more hints....

pistol_75

Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

Which plan did you follow?

What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?

nerraw1111

Which plan did you follow?

Up to 55 miles - 18 week schedule (started at 14 weeks to go)

What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

Found it manageable. Was in pretty good shape at the end of it and felt pretty good during the race. The race went ridiculously well in hindsight.

Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

Followed as laid out. Missed the odd session/week including most of taper (injured/niggles)

How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

First proper plan I followed.

Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

Yes.

Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

Yeah, I got the result I trained for.

In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

More race pace sessions. Sometimes it felt like I had gone weeks without running a single km of race pace. Created a bit of doubt. That said, perhaps that's the reason why the plan works.

Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?

Will use it again. Switched to Daniel's for the shorter stuff till then.

menoscemo

Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

Which plan did you follow?
55 MPW plan for Dublin 2010 and the 70 MPW plan for Berlin 2011

What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?
Coming from HH Novice 1 the plan worked great for Dublin, not so well for Berlin

Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?
Followed it by the book for DCM 2010, until I had a groin niggle so replaced some of the VO2 max sessions at the end. Made some modifications for the 70mpw plan for berlin

How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?
Found it great first time around, coming from HH, the increased mileage had great results across all distances

Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?
Yes, found the HR stuff invaluable. Made me consider what was actually an 'easy' pace and what was 'hard' effort. Still use these lessons today

Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?
Yes for DCM 2010, actually should have actually went quicker (backed off).
No for Berlin- my target was just out of range at the time and I blew up spectacularly!!

In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?
More MP miles in place of the VO2 max sessions over last 6-7 weeks

Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?
Yes, while it is a good 'transition' plan I don't think it is for me. I don't like doing MP miles in Long runs and this is the only place P&D has them. I don't understand the emphasis on Vo2max session over the final mesocycle of the plan, this is surely when we should be getting specific and doing lots of MP based sessions midweek. In short, I think there should be MP miles midweek especially in the last few months.

average_runner

I am going to do the 70 mpw schedule but do tempo runs from 7 miles to 11 miles. Improve endurance etc.

theboyblunder

Which plan did you follow?

55-70 18 wk. But jumped in at 13 weeks to go. Kinsa following before that.

What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?

Its great. I had consistently underperformed in previous marathon races compared to my times at 10 and 13.1. I felt the plan made me stronger. For the first time in a marathon I ran a negative split. Downside is the monotony. This isnt a problem for me (easily amused) but some find it too boring...

Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?

No changes. I tend to overthink things, so I delibrately just followed the book. Takes the hassle out of training. It might not be the most modern plan, but lots of people aiming for lots of different time goals have done well on it...which is reassuring as you head out for that midweek 15 mile run

From 13 weeks out I followed it exactly except for one session I bailed on on a hot day.

How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?

I followed daniels A twice before. Its also a good plan - big improvements over 10 and 13.1but as I said, I underperformed in the race. Frankly I think I was overcooked on it come race day. I have suspected for a while that the same has happened to one or two others on here, but some have also ran great races on it.
Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?

No way. That would suck all the fun out of it
Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?

On P&D yes. I think I actually ran a little faster than mcmillan suggested beforehand which was a first for me

In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?

I wouldnt have bought a house in 2003

Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?

Nope. I like the simplicity and I think it addresses my particular weaknesses

jfh

for anyone who has followed the 55 - 70 miles per week 18 week plan.
do you think there was enough long runs?

the longest run is 22. is that long enough?

there's only 2 runs over 20 miles, admit there's 2 runs of 20 miles.

average_runner

menoscemo wrote: »

Just reviving this thread as I think a lot of people have used their training plans in the last 3 years and I know a lot did for recent Spring marathons.

Which plan did you follow?
55 MPW plan for Dublin 2010 and the 70 MPW plan for Berlin 2011

What is your feedback on the plan and how did it work for you?
Coming from HH Novice 1 the plan worked great for Dublin, not so well for Berlin

Did you follow the plan as layed out or change it slightly e.g for club sessions?
Followed it by the book for DCM 2010, until I had a groin niggle so replaced some of the VO2 max sessions at the end. Made some modifications for the 70mpw plan for berlin

How did it compare to previous plans you had followed?
Found it great first time around, coming from HH, the increased mileage had great results across all distances

Did you follow the paces/HR zones recommended for each session?
Yes, found the HR stuff invaluable. Made me consider what was actually an 'easy' pace and what was 'hard' effort. Still use these lessons today

Do you feel you got the result your training deserved?
Yes for DCM 2010, actually should have actually went quicker (backed off).
No for Berlin- my target was just out of range at the time and I blew up spectacularly!!

In hindsight if you could do something different what would it be?
More MP miles in place of the VO2 max sessions over last 6-7 weeks

Have you moved away from P&D since you used it and if so why?
Yes, while it is a good 'transition' plan I don't think it is for me. I don't like doing MP miles in Long runs and this is the only place P&D has them. I don't understand the emphasis on Vo2max session over the final mesocycle of the plan, this is surely when we should be getting specific and doing lots of MP based sessions midweek. In short, I think there should be MP miles midweek especially in the last few months.

Very good points there. I will do a vo2 session every 2nd week with club
as get more out of it. Planning some midweek mp miles too and maybe mix a bit if jd sessions.

Kinda what I did for first half of this year and knocked 3 mins off 10k time to 42:06.

kit3

Probably a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway :rolleyes: - Is it possible to follow the P&D programmes without a garmin or a heart rate monitor ?

Any suggestions for other programmes that are a step up from the HH ones - bit afraid of P&D for some reason but need something more than HH.

Krusty_Clown

kit3 wrote: »

Probably a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway :rolleyes: - Is it possible to follow the P&D programmes without a garmin or a heart rate monitor ?

Any suggestions for other programmes that are a step up from the HH ones - bit afraid of P&D for some reason but need something more than HH.

Do you have access to a track and stop-watch? If so, I'd say definitely yes. You'll get awful bored of that track though!

nerraw1111

I think you could manage without a HR or Garmin.

You will need a stop watch.

You just need to measure out your runs on mapmyrun beforehand and have an idea of what pace you should be running. So for example, 2 laps of the local park is a mile, you need to run each lap at x pace.

Initially, it might take a bit of work but once you find some suitable routes, it should be easy enough.

Claude Harmon

How do people find this plan compared to the Hanson's Marathon Method ( http://www.amazon.com/Hansons-Marathon-Method-Renegade-Fastest/dp/1934030856 ). I followed the P&D last year in Dublin for a 3.28 (down from 4:08) and thought it was good, but fancied trying another one.
Hanson proposes a longest run of 16 Miles, which worries me slightly!

ecoli

Claude Harmon wrote: »

How do people find this plan compared to the Hanson's Marathon Method ( http://www.amazon.com/Hansons-Marathon-Method-Renegade-Fastest/dp/1934030856 ). I followed the P&D last year in Dublin for a 3.28 (down from 4:08) and thought it was good, but fancied trying another one.
Hanson proposes a longest run of 16 Miles, which worries me slightly!

Bought the Hanson book recently plan itself actually looks solid and there is a good bit of thought put into the reason for the shorter long run. I would recommend it for those who are in perhaps there second or third year of running.

The idea behind it is that you are more consistent through the week because you are not taking as long to recover from the an overly long, long run.

As I said I think for someone who hasn't alread built up a good base over the course of a few years I think it will stand to you physically more (having said that there is a trade off with the mental benefits of a long run)

ThePiedPiper

Don't know Ecoli.. Personally, I think there's absolutely nothing to beat the 20-22 mile long run with 10-12 miles at marathon pace. Yes, a lot of it is the mental benefits, but running long and fast is what you're looking to do in the marathon, so I think you've got to put the two together in training.

It's not until I pushed the long run out to 22-23 miles that I got consistent endurance in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Maxing out at 16 would be a risk, IMHO.

tomred1N

RunForestRun wrote: »

Don't know Ecoli.. Personally, I think there's absolutely nothing to beat the 20-22 mile long run with 10-12 miles at marathon pace. Yes, a lot of it is the mental benefits, but running long and fast is what you're looking to do in the marathon, so I think you've got to put the two together in training.

It's not until I pushed the long run out to 22-23 miles that I got consistent endurance in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Maxing out at 16 would be a risk, IMHO.

Another book for the beach next month, will just have to take the cover off it so the wife thinks I'm reading a novel !

In spite of loving 20 milers on a sunday morning I may in the interests of research have to consider this one

statss

guys,

good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks

beeduybe

statss wrote: »

guys,

good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks

I followed the 18 week 55 mile plan for DCM last year which was my 2nd marathon and ended up with a 49 minute PB of 3:21 which I wouldn't have dreamt of before starting the plan. From what I've read of your log I think it will be a great plan for you to follow.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056448239&page=13

tomred1N

statss wrote: »

guys,

good info in this thread, I'm starting the 55/week plan, and have been reading people's logs (blockic, outforarun, scriba)...if you also logged while doing the plan can you link me to your log so I can have a gander! thanks

Hey statss

I followed 55 mile 18 week plan for my second marathon CCM13 this year. Got a 32 minute PB on DCM 12 . Had only been running around 8 months before I started this plan so was not sure if I had the stamina to follow it .the progressive nature of it made me ready for the longer harder runs and the LT runs I found of most benefit in monitoring improvements. I think I completed 95 % of the plan as laid out on the schedule so that obviously helps as well. i.e no injury etc

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056879543&page=7

statss

thanks both, thats exactly what I was after, good reading other people's day to day efforts with the plan.

sub3wannabe

Could anyone who has followed a program from this book maybe explain more about the VO2Max workouts?

If the workout is 14km w 5x600m @ 5k race pace, how should i run the remaining km's and at which stage of the session. Thanks in advance!

Clearlier

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Could anyone who has followed a program from this book maybe explain more about the VO2Max workouts?

If the workout is 14km w 5x600m @ 5k race pace, how should i run the remaining km's and at which stage of the session. Thanks in advance!

No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).

sub3wannabe

Clearlier wrote: »

No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).

Cheers mate. Will just top and tail the session with 20% race pace k's!

thewolf_ie

Clearlier wrote: »

No need to overthink it. The overall distance covered isn't critical to this session. The main thing is that you do the reps at the right pace/effort levels. The rest of the distance consists of the warm up, the active rest in between reps and the warm down.

A sample would be: warm-up for 7km, do the session including keeping moving during the rest period, c.4.5 - 5km and then warm down for the last bit (2 - 2.5km).

I would have ran 14k then the intervals???

Krusty_Clown

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I would have ran 14k then the intervals???

No, that's not right, Luke.

sub3wannabe

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I would have ran 14k then the intervals???

Ha, sure that would mean you'd end up running 19k! A beneficial mistake!

I did as Clearwater suggested and things went smoothly.

btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?

blockic

sub3wannabe wrote: »

btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?

I'm terrible at explaining the science behind them so I'll let others do that but to put it simply:

Lactate Threshold pace is a pace roughly between 10mile and Half Marathon pace.

V02 Max is where you should run the intervals at between 3km-5km pace.

So they are significantly different.

thewolf_ie

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

No, that's not right, Luke.

Yoda I will never beat the dark runners my beet root is weak.

thewolf_ie

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Ha, sure that would mean you'd end up running 19k! A beneficial mistake!

I did as Clearwater suggested and things went smoothly.

btw, while im here, could anyone explain to me the difference between Lactate Threshold and Vo2 max? Are they not pretty much the same thing?

Lactate Threshold is the point you reach when Lactate enters the blood stream at a rate to fast for you body to deal with. This is when you reach an effort level usually around your best effort half. The results are muscle not functioning at best. You train at this level to increase/push out the point at which this occurs this is how your times improve.

More in dept here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactate_threshold


Vo2 Max

This mean how much oxygen your body can effiently delivery to your muscles at hi intensity. The better it is the fast you are. Correct me on this if I'm wrong.

More indept here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max

thewolf_ie

I also have these sessions now 9 mi w/5 x 600 m @ 5 k pace. Anyone else any thoughts on tackling these?

pconn062

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I also have these sessions now 9 mi w/5 x 600 m @ 5 k pace. Anyone else any thoughts on tackling these?

3 mile warm up, session (roughly 2 miles in total 5x600m= 3k), 4 mile cool down. That's what I'd do anyway.

thewolf_ie

pconn062 wrote: »

3 mile warm up, session (roughly 2 miles in total 5x600m= 3k), 4 mile cool down. That's what I'd do anyway.

Cheers!

randomCluster

thewolf_ie wrote: »

I also have these sessions now 9 mi w/5 x 600 m @ 5 k pace. Anyone else any thoughts on tackling these?

Did the 5x600m up the Khyber Hill in the Phoenix park this evening. Every 100m is marked. 2.5m warm up and 2.5m cool down. A steady 12m tomorrow, will probably try stick to grass as much as possible.

thewolf_ie

randomCluster wrote: »

Did the 5x600m up the Khyber Hill in the Phoenix park this evening. Every 100m is marked. 2.5m warm up and 2.5m cool down. A steady 12m tomorrow, will probably try stick to grass as much as possible.

I was lucky to do it on a gravel 400 meter track. Enjoyed it and all.

sub3wannabe

Anyone who is familiar with the 18 week programs in this book care to hazard a rough ratio between weekly millage and target time?

Chapter:8 88km peak - 3:30 -4:00
Chapter:9 113km peak -3:30 - 3:00
Chapter:10 137km peak - 3:00 - 2:30
Chapter:11 137km plus 2:30 -2:XX


Would that be the rough ball park?

Followed C9 for my 2:59 in DCM in October, want to attempt sub 2:50 in Belfast in May. Should I repeat C9 with just higher intensity or would I need to step up to C10?

Thanks in advance!

blockic

sub3wannabe wrote: »

Anyone who is familiar with the 18 week programs in this book care to hazard a rough ratio between weekly millage and target time?

Chapter:8 88km peak - 3:30 -4:00
Chapter:9 113km peak -3:30 - 3:00
Chapter:10 137km peak - 3:00 - 2:30
Chapter:11 137km plus 2:30 -2:XX


Would that be the rough ball park?

Followed C9 for my 2:59 in DCM in October, want to attempt sub 2:50 in Belfast in May. Should I repeat C9 with just higher intensity or would I need to step up to C10?

Thanks in advance!

I would personally think that a sub 2:50 is achievable from 70 mile week mileage peak, if managed properly.

Check out RunForestRun's log on his Chicago marathon recently. He ran 2:50 off a 70 mile week peak if I recall, he might help you out here.

That said, adding mileage is not a bad thing.

Will be aiming for something similar in 2014 myself, best of luck with it.

roro2

blockic wrote: »

I would personally think that a sub 2:50 is achievable from 70 mile week mileage peak, if managed properly.

Check out RunForestRun's log on his Chicago marathon recently. He ran 2:50 off a 70 mile week peak if I recall, he might help you out here.

That said, adding mileage is not a bad thing.

Will be aiming for something similar in 2014 myself, best of luck with it.

I'd tend to agree that upping the miles to 86 per week is not essential to go to 2.50. I've run sub-3 off peaks of 50-55 miles/week, but where only the LSR was run outside marathon pace. I personally favour increasing the quality of the miles rather than just adding miles, but this is as much to do with time constraints as anything - in an ideal world we'd all be able to run for as long as we wanted. It's also down to making a judgement call based on your own experience. In saying that, I haven't followed any of the P&D programmes and I haven't quite reached 2.50 either!

Krusty_Clown

roro2 wrote: »

I'd tend to agree that upping the miles to 86 per week is not essential to go to 2.50. I've run sub-3 off peaks of 50-55 miles/week, but where only the LSR was run outside marathon pace. I personally favour increasing the quality of the miles rather than just adding miles, but this is as much to do with time constraints as anything - in an ideal world we'd all be able to run for as long as we wanted. It's also down to making a judgement call based on your own experience. In saying that, I haven't followed any of the P&D programmes and I haven't quite reached 2.50 either!

When sub3wannabe refers to changing P&D programs, that represents both an increase in mileage and quality, as both increase with each program. Having said that, I don't think you can quantify the mileage requirements for a particular target on a general scale, as it is unique and different for every individual. Sub 2:50 for blockic may lie in a completely different approach, while the solution to cracking 2:50 for sub3wannabe might be in repeating exactly the same program, joining a club, or building middle-distance speed and carrying it through to the marathon.

yaboya1

I am currently following the P&D Up to 55mpw 12 week plan for Seville in late February. I was still relatively fit from running Chicago in mid-October when I started and am hoping it helps me improve from my 3:34:53 there.

Link to training log: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057073987&page=3