Dole Drug Test?

Gang of Gin

Turtyturd wrote: »

The fact that sacrcasm doesn't translate onto the internet inrages me.

Sarcasm too.

Morpheus

ScumLord wrote: »

I can, I buy my weed from a pacifist grower.

bully for you, you are in the minority IMO.

It's the law that creates the black market, you cannot blame a chemical or dead plant matter for the consequences of peoples decisions.

You CAN blame supply and demand creating a market.

As a matter of interest, if a referendum was held tomorrow, do you really think Ireland would vote in favor of legalising canabis?

If we legalise canabis (by the way,which ive not got a problem with), then fine, so the problem there is sorted, legitimate market, suppliers, etc...

now what do we do about cocaine, heroine, etc.. you see we still have a drug problem, related criminality, etc,so we should still introduce random drug tests, but for EVERYONE not just the unemployed. the title of this thread doesnt really reflect the argument we've entered,
indifferent random drug tests on society as a whole,
legalisation of canabis,
classification of alcohol as a drug,
if canabis is legalised, is it ok for someone to smoke it if their job is a type of employment that requires them not to use drugs - would you like soldiers on duty, smoked out of their brains the night before to be walking our streets with live ammo the next morning?
do the effects of canabis wear off in the same length of time as alcohol,
are there studies to back this up.

interesting topics to debate.

Wazdakka

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Yes, dole people are WELCOME to 'my' tax money for a few spliffs if they fancy it. In fact its THEIR money, most on the dole are recently unemployed (last year or two) remember. They paid their stamps for years in most cases.

Ok... You misunderstand me obviously..
Firstly.. I never mentioned dope as a drug.
Secondly, I said "our money".. As is ours.. yours, mine theirs.. ours.
Thirdly, I think that any initiative relating to any of this would be solely aimed at the long term, and in some case lifetime dole drawers.
The minority who obviously do not want to work and are happy to live off the state.

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

A massive amount of people smoke weed daily/weekly. That wont change. Bringing in something like this would be fascist and that's not the type of society I want to live in.

I am quite aware of that
In fact, I smoke weed daily..
And I completely understand that that situation wont change... nor do I want it to tbh. I like weed.
But at the same time I do realise that it's a luxury.
How is it fascist to try and stop lifetime abusers of a system, that's in place to provide temporary relief for individuals and families?

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Plenty of people in full employment use recreational drugs. You can't use the use of recreational drugs as any kind of reliable indicator of who is and isn't worthy of a job/dole money.

Yup, Again I would be one of those people.
I've been using recreational drugs since I was 17 and I have never once drawn any state benefit.
I don't in any way draw a comparison between the two things.

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

People want to work. They don't want to be on the dole.

*Sigh*
Again, yes.. The majority do..
But that is not what this would be aimed at..

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Of course. They are part of life as much as a cup of tea. There is no 'stamping it out' any more than you can stamp out sex or booze.

Yup I agree..
People will always want to do drugs.
It's human nature to want to alter your consciousness.

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

Addiction?
I'd say the amount of people addicted to drugs is relatively tiny in comparison to the amount of people who use them recreationally and have fully functional lives otherwise.

You really are on a one track thought here...
And it's the wrong one.
I doubt anybody is disagreeing with recreational drug use being a part of life...

The point of this would be to help stop lifetime abusers of the financial aid system in Ireland spending money on drugs.
Hopefully somewhat dis-encourageing the mentality that's it's ok to do this.

kerash

Can we test the government too

ScumLord

Morphéus wrote: »

bully for you, you are in the minority IMO.


You CAN blame supply and demand creating a market.

How do you know I'm in the minority? That fact is it's nearly impossible to import good weed, it has to be grown locally. Allot of people are growing weed for extra cash and drug dealers in this country have such a bad reputation drug users will do anything to avoid buying off them. Supply and demand can't be blamed that's just a fact of life a description of a natural process.

now what do we do about cocaine, heroine, etc.. you see we still have a drug problem, related criminality, etc,so we should still introduce random drug tests, but for EVERYONE not just the unemployed.

I thought you where joking about that. :eek: That's the craziest thing I've ever heard. You want to give the government the power to go around randomly testing anyone they like? What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Freedom? How have you possibly so much faith in the government after what they've been up to? I don't want to live in a police state, it's bad enough being in a nanny state.

if canabis is legalised, is it ok for someone to smoke it if their job is a type of employment that requires them not to use drugs

Of course not, we don't accept people being inebriated while working why should that change? Your just scaremongering or simply regurgitating the scaremongering of the shit stirrers in the media. This is the scare tactic that they use, if we make drugs legal everyone will be out of they're minds the whole time, it's rubbish.

do the effects of canabis wear off in the same length of time as alcohol,
are there studies to back this up.

It wears off quicker than alcohol, you must be thinking of that daft high for a month nonsense. It's more rubbish.

Morpheus

kerash wrote: »

Can we test the government too

Already been introduced in some departments, see "Compulsory Random Drug Testing"

Not sure which ones so far other than the Dept of Defence, but I know in the DOD case, its not just the soldiers, its also the civil servants working in the Dept.

My proposal is nationwide every area of employment, that includes ALL level of government. Nobody should be above the law.

Herbal Deity

Morphéus wrote: »

Glad you find the concept funny, with the experiences Ive had, I dont find it one. bit. funny.

as for alcohol, yes it is a drug too, its not an illegal drug, but it has its own similiar related issues to illegal drugs. My gripe with the illegal drugs is that for every penny a drug user spends, some part of it is buying bullets and guns for the scroats and scumbags on our streets and they are funding them in some way. You surely cant deny this?

Did you read the link I posted about chocolate:

Herbal Deity wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8583000/8583499.stm

It's just an example of one of the many, many products people buy every day without a second thought that has dubious, criminal involvement.

I don't deny that it is wrong that money spent on drugs goes to criminals, but drugs aren't unique in this sense.

I mean, people make the argument that drug users' money goes to criminals as if users are the most immoral, inconsiderate people, yet I very much doubt that these people also abstain from buying chocolate, coffee, sweatshop manufactured clothes etc.

The fact that much of the money we spend ultimately goes to criminals is a problem across the whole market, it is not a legitimate argument to be made specifically against drugs.

Morpheus

That fact is it's nearly impossible to import good weed, it has to be grown locally

Its my own opinion that the majority of the stuff is still imported, but I would wager its a 60- 40 percentage, but still based on my own opinion I put you in the minority, you are entitled to your own and I accept that your belief is that the larger quantity of the stuff is supplied indigenously.

You want to give the government the power to go around randomly testing anyone they like?

Im already subject to this - see compulsory random drug testing

Your just scaremongering or simply regurgitating the scaremongering of the **** stirrers in the media. This is the scare tactic that they use, if we make drugs legal everyone will be out of they're minds the whole time, it's rubbish.

Im not scaremongering,

I was asking your own opinion on it.

individuals working in high risk jobs would still have to be subjected to random drug testing for a legal drug - there would have to be random alcohol and drug testing done to find out if they had taken either in large quantities in last 24 hours.

I dont think everyone would be out of their heads, no more than i expect to see everyone hammered walking around town on their lunch breaks!!!

you must be thinking of that daft high for a month nonsense. It's more rubbish.

Relax man, again I was posing a question for my own curiosity, as a non smoker or either legal or illegal drugs I was just asking the question as I dont know!!!

kerash

Morphéus wrote: »

Already been introduced in some departments, see "Compulsory Random Drug Testing"

Not sure which ones so far other than the Dept of Defence, but I know in the DOD case, its not just the soldiers, its also the civil servants working in the Dept.

My proposal is nationwide every area of employment, that includes ALL level of government. Nobody should be above the law.

Which departments, can we see the results? Can I have a update on Cowans urine STAT.

The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005 requires employees to submit to drug tests if reasonable. These are expected to be implemented only in safety-critical sectors.

The Safety, Health and Welfare at Work Act 2005, s.13 requires employees not to be under the influence at work, and to submit to drug tests if reasonable; it is an offence, punishable by fine or prison, to fail to do this (s.77). Employer can ask doctor to check employee's medical fitness to work, s.23. Doctor should tell employer of decision, and employee of reason for decision. s.8 obliges the employer to provide a safe place of work. Regulations in 2006 will implement this Act and define details.

Is this the current state of affairs?

Morpheus

I mean, people make the argument that drug users' money goes to criminals as if users are the most immoral, inconsiderate people, yet I very much doubt that these people also abstain from buying chocolate, coffee, sweatshop manufactured clothes etc.

The fact that much of the money we spend ultimately goes to criminals is a problem across the whole market, it is not a legitimate argument to be made specifically against drugs.

Forgive me for being nationally selfish but while i AM concerned, i am MORE concerned with our domestic criminal problems in ireland, now, today, than with the issues of these inidividuals working in other countries to supply chocolate and clothes.

You are looking at the wider picture which is fair enough but I choose to look locally first, I look at the fact that money goes directly from illegal drug users (the ones not growing the stuff domestically) into the hands of the criminals and terrorists in this country and they bring death, violence, intimidation, crime, destruction, terrorism and all the entrapments of the dark side of life to our daily lives. This is what conerns me, how can I look at the problems others face in their countries if I dont recognise and take a stand against the issues we see in our own first?

Morpheus

No, in the military you get called to do the drug test, you have 2 choices, 1. you accept, 2 you refuse. If you refuse you automatically default your job. This is compulsory random drug testing as introduced for the department of defence. it is outside normal civilian employment law.

ScumLord

Morphéus wrote: »

Its my own opinion that the majority of the stuff is still imported, but I would wager its a 60- 40 percentage, but still based on my own opinion I put you in the minority, you are entitled to your own and I accept that your belief is that the larger quantity of the stuff is supplied indigenously.

But where are you getting this from? I smoke weed, I've smoked weed for a long time, I know what imported weed looks like, it's nearly always compressed or flattened some way, in reality weed just isn't imported that much, it's too hard to conceal that's why it's always hash that's imported. The weed that's around now just isn't imported and I think I'm in a better position to say that as you say you don't use drugs at all. You can tell allot about weed from it's condition.

individuals working in high risk jobs would still have to be subjected to random drug testing for a legal drug - there would have to be random alcohol and drug testing done to find out if they had taken either in large quantities in last 24 hours.

That's allot different from everyone should be randomly tested. Of course these people need to be in peak physical condition. That will never happen of course as they can often be overworked and tripping due to lack of sleep.

Relax man, again I was posing a question for my own curiosity, as a non smoker or either legal or illegal drugs I was just asking the question as I dont know!!!

I just like using colourful language don't worry about it. But randomly testing random people is just an awful thing to propose.

ClutchIt

How many engineers, lawyers and architects get stoned all day long like most of the lads I know that are on the dole. I'm telling you right now that out of all the lads I know, its the ones who smoke loads of dope that are on the dole.

In fact one of them had a very good job and got sacked recently because he became so goddamn lazy with all the weed he smokes. He's dropped out of college three times and was sacked from a number of jobs. Best thing in the world would be for this guy to be made give up dope and get out and do something with his life

Cheap Thrills!

Wazdakka wrote: »

The point of this would be to help stop lifetime abusers of the financial aid system in Ireland spending money on drugs.
Hopefully somewhat dis-encourageing the mentality that's it's ok to do this.

But drug testing will not just neatly target them alone. It would eliminate people like you and me from getting the dole should we need it just because of a few spliffs etc

ScumLord

ClutchIt wrote: »

How many engineers, lawyers and architects get stoned all day long like most of the lads I know that are on the dole. I'm telling you right now that out of all the lads I know, its the ones who smoke loads of dope that are on the dole.

In fact one of them had a very good job and got sacked recently because he became so goddamn lazy with all the weed he smokes. He's dropped out of college three times and was sacked from a number of jobs. Best thing in the world would be for this guy to be made give up dope and get out and do something with his life

I'd have experienced the exact opposite. Every professional I know smokes a bit of weed and it doesn't affect their job. If someone is unmotivated and hates they're job they're not going to be all that enthusiastic about it.

Wazdakka

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

But drug testing will not just neatly target them alone. It would eliminate people like you and me from getting the dole should we need it just because of a few spliffs etc

So how about drug testing for people who have been on the dole for over two years?

Cheap Thrills!

Wazdakka wrote: »

So how about drug testing for people who have been on the dole for over two years?

I still don't like it.

And how much would be saved versus the spend to do it......?

ScumLord

Wazdakka wrote: »

So how about drug testing for people who have been on the dole for over two years?

that seems more fair because there's obviously some problem preventing them working. Although I don't see how it would really fix the problem.

Training them so there's a skill there would go further to helping them off welfare.

Wazdakka

Cheap Thrills! wrote: »

And how much would be saved versus the spend to do it......?

Well a quick googleing showed up...

This... at a not very expensive £3.94 per test.
Or, if you wanted to splash out..
This at a whopping £6 per test..

Now those are website over the counter prices.
Bulk buying would be a lot cheaper..

Drug testing is cheaper than people think.

Wazdakka

ScumLord wrote: »

Training them so there's a skill there would go further to helping them off welfare.

Unfortunately, there are people who don't have the want to get off welfare.
They are a minority, but they are just abusing the system.

I don't think it's going to be possible to stop that overnight.
But it should at least be made a bit more difficult for them to do.

Micky Dolenz

Sharpshooter wrote: »

I see this as meaning, "Stop giving them money to buy drugs, give them food and clothing instead.

Nah I was joking, sorry thought I was posting in after hours. hey hang on a minute this ain't the politics forum :P

Ofcourse give people money, let them decide on what they want to do with it.

DamienH

Those tests are absolute ****e. All you have to do is to drink tonnes of water and you'll pass. It takes no account of the water content of your urine, just the drug content. If I drink 5 pints of water two hours before taking this test I will pass, that's a fact.

The states has a multi-million dollar industry performing drug tests. They test for specific gravity of the urine to insure that people haven't been intentionally drinking buckets of water to dilute. Even then all you have to do is get someone who is drug free to pee in a bottle for you and you have passed.

Admitedly it is a bit more complicated in the states in that the urine must be between 90-100 faranheit but it's still a fairly easy procedure to heat up urine e.g. Leaving it by the air vents as you drive to the test.

The best test is a hair follicule (sp?) test but they are quite pricey and must be performed in a lab. To set up a dole drug test would cost a bomb. People will spend their dole money on all sorts. Drug testing people looking for dole will solve very little.

Whats next a retina scan in the bookies? "I'm sorry sir, you're actually on the dole so you can't be in here." If you're literally giving people money then it's up to them what they spend it on. The means testing procedure should be far more concise, that would save a lot more money than drug testing anyone.

I was on the dole for four months before I left and I was on far too much money for my age (21 at the time). You should be getting the bare minimum, not enough to be going out twice a week and eating aswell. Dole is the dole, breadline ****. Under 21s should be getting 40-60 EUR a week before any reductions.

Wazdakka wrote: »

Well a quick googleing showed up...

This... at a not very expensive £3.94 per test.
Or, if you wanted to splash out..
This at a whopping £6 per test..

Now those are website over the counter prices.
Bulk buying would be a lot cheaper..

Drug testing is cheaper than people think.

Cheap Thrills!

Wazdakka wrote: »

Well a quick googleing showed up...

This... at a not very expensive £3.94 per test.
Or, if you wanted to splash out..
This at a whopping £6 per test..

Now those are website over the counter prices.
Bulk buying would be a lot cheaper..

Drug testing is cheaper than people think.

Well, you still have to pay people to supervise the person pissing so that there is no foul play with switching urine etc. Thats how things operate in methedone clinics etc

ScumLord

Wazdakka wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are people who don't have the want to get off welfare.
They are a minority, but they are just abusing the system.

I wonder how hard we've tried to change them though? I'd say there are many lads that just don't know any other life and if a real opportunity to get out was put in front of them they might take it. But as always there will be some that are just bad eggs.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Wazdakka wrote: »

Well a quick googleing showed up...

This... at a not very expensive £3.94 per test.
Or, if you wanted to splash out..
This at a whopping £6 per test..

Now those are website over the counter prices.
Bulk buying would be a lot cheaper..

Drug testing is cheaper than people think.

Never run your own business, it just won't work.

You factor in one cost, the cost of the sampling kit. Yet, there are many other costs involved...

Drug testing is a lot more expensive than you think.

Wazdakka wrote: »

Unfortunately, there are people who don't have the want to get off welfare.
They are a minority, but they are just abusing the system.

So what's stopping you targeting them? It's easier for people to target and slander a whole group of people than to do the right thing, if anybodies lazy, it's the gombeens making generalisations about all on social welfare.

I don't think it's going to be possible to stop that overnight.
But it should at least be made a bit more difficult for them to do.

It's not going to be possible to do ever.

Mike 1972

DamienH wrote: »

The best test is a hair follicule (sp?) test.

If your definition of "best" = "most prone to false positives"

ScumLord

Talia Brave Tonsillitis wrote: »

Never run your own business, it just won't work.

You factor in one cost, the cost of the sampling kit. Yet, there are many other costs involved...

Drug testing is a lot more expensive than you think.

I suppose you'd need a trained member of staff to administer the test, at each office.
Facilities to carry out the test, at each office.
Those two things right there make it unfeasible. It's different in the US where they have money to burn on subjugating their citizens, over here it just wouldn't happen.

DamienH

It's surely one of the better tests? Urine is too easy to cheat unless you want someone looking at you while you piss. That isn't going to happen. I'm going to say best is most non-intrusive, apologies for not making myself clearer.

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If your definition of "best" = "most prone to false positives"

Morpheus

ScumLord wrote: »

I suppose you'd need a trained member of staff to administer the test, at each office.
Facilities to carry out the test, at each office.
Those two things right there make it unfeasible. It's different in the US where they have money to burn on subjugating their citizens, over here it just wouldn't happen.

Its random.

one company does all of ireland.

randomly selects an area.

randomly selects a series of companys or social welfare individuals ow whoever and visits them.

Drug test company have witnesses administer the drug tests and take away the A and B samples for processing in central laboratory.

issue results to relevant employer/govt department/individual

---

I said this cannot be zero tolerance, therefore a framework of acceptable steps must be enshrined in law which is created to allow the individual to rehab and correct their behaviour and be retested at a later stage, before they run the risk of getting a paycut or losing a job or getting reduced dole etc...

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

ScumLord wrote: »

I suppose you'd need a trained member of staff to administer the test, at each office.
Facilities to carry out the test, at each office.
Those two things right there make it unfeasible. It's different in the US where they have money to burn on subjugating their citizens, over here it just wouldn't happen.

I would estimate each test to be a lot more expensive than stated. A normal GP visit is from 40 to 60 euros on average. Now, if this were to happen, would it be done on a scale where thousands of people queue up at a clinic and the doctor takes a quick urine sample? Or would the volumes attending these clinics be a lot less and more personal?