Dole Drug Test?

pwd

Overheal wrote: »

Yes because rather than address the view, and debate like an adult, insulting other members of this site with a view that varies from yours is the way forward.

Riiiight. Here's a facepalm :rolleyes: take it to the bank.

You failed the fucktard test didn't you.

"I live on a big platform in the sea in an almost-exclusively male environment, for months at a time. I do hard physical work, in harsh living conditions. As such, it offers a lot more money than most options I have as an unskilled worker. In order to help maintain order in such an intense environment, drugs and alcohol are strictly banned, and they do random tests to enforce this. I'm happy to go along with this, as it's part and parcel of my choice of work.
"However, I'm a bit of a prick, and I like to look down on people the odd time I can. I think people on the dole should *have* to be subjected to random drugs tests, because I choose to be subjected to random drugs tests, and I am superior to those fuckers on the dole because I work. I don't give a fuck about the fact this would be expensive to impement on such a large scale. I quite like the fact that it would further humiliate people who are embarrassed or frustrated at being out of work. I'm oblivious to the fact that this is a completely different context, and the reasons for the random tests I undergo are not present. Neither do I care that cutting off dole for drug-users won't magically find them gainful employment, nor will it solve any social problems whatsoever. This is completely irrelevant - I want them to be humiliated because they are scum and I am superior.
Sincerely,
Complete Fucking Fucktard."

Iron Hide

OP, grow up! At the moment i'm currently on unemployment benefit, so i'm sorry if i'm draining your pocket. I'd like to think of it from the other side, if people didnt pay their taxes etc.. i would probably not recieve money every week, money which i depend on, money which half a million other people depend on to put food on the table and pay the bills. So i think a thank you is in order! Thanks to everyone who isnt a bigoted, snobbish prat that understands the position that a hefty portion of the 500,000 unemployed in this country are in!

generalmiaow

Here's a facebook group using the same copypasta as the OP's chainmail. If you actually believe this please join it because I'd love to see if there's anyone savvy enough to be on this website who seriously believes this. Obviously this is nonsense anyway since showing up positive on a piss test doesn't prove anything about how you spend your money since most recreational drugs cannot be tested for this way.

The results of this poll make me glad we don't live in a direct democracy. Can I ask some of the ~40% who voted yes on this how you would pay for 4 million drug tests a year with no benefits apart from smugness - or at least outline some economical way of to satisfy your craving for casting judgement on how welfare recipients spend their money?

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

generalmiaow wrote: »

Here's a facebook group using the same copypasta as the OP's chainmail. If you actually believe this please join it because I'd love to see if there's anyone savvy enough to be on this website who seriously believes this. Obviously this is nonsense anyway since showing up positive on a piss test doesn't prove anything about how you spend your money since most recreational drugs cannot be tested for this way.

The results of this poll make me glad we don't live in a direct democracy. Can I ask some of the ~40% who voted yes on this how you would pay for 4 million drug tests a year with no benefits apart from smugness - or at least outline some economical way of to satisfy your craving for casting judgement on how welfare recipients spend their money?

If there was ever a reason for compulsorary steralisation, this is it.... Do not polute the gene pool with your stupidity David... good lad

Snowie

pwd wrote: »

You failed the fucktard test didn't you.

"I live on a big platform in the sea in an almost-exclusively male environment, for months at a time. I do hard physical work, in harsh living conditions. As such, it offers a lot more money than most options I have as an unskilled worker. In order to help maintain order in such an intense environment, drugs and alcohol are strictly banned, and they do random tests to enforce this. I'm happy to go along with this, as it's part and parcel of my choice of work.
"However, I'm a bit of a prick, and I like to look down on people the odd time I can. I think people on the dole should *have* to be subjected to random drugs tests, because I choose to be subjected to random drugs tests, and I am superior to those fuckers on the dole because I work. I don't give a fuck about the fact this would be expensive to impement on such a large scale. I quite like the fact that it would further humiliate people who are embarrassed or frustrated at being out of work. I'm oblivious to the fact that this is a completely different context, and the reasons for the random tests I undergo are not present. Neither do I care that cutting off dole for drug-users won't magically find them gainful employment, nor will it solve any social problems whatsoever. This is completely irrelevant - I want them to be humiliated because they are scum and I am superior.
Sincerely,
Complete Fucking Fucktard."

Ha.

Your funny.

Oh and when they run out of oil where will you be hmmmm On the dole cue like every other rigger in the world

Overheal

generalmiaow wrote: »

Here's a facebook group using the same copypasta as the OP's chainmail. If you actually believe this please join it because I'd love to see if there's anyone savvy enough to be on this website who seriously believes this. Obviously this is nonsense anyway since showing up positive on a piss test doesn't prove anything about how you spend your money since most recreational drugs cannot be tested for this way.

The results of this poll make me glad we don't live in a direct democracy. Can I ask some of the ~40% who voted yes on this how you would pay for 4 million drug tests a year with no benefits apart from smugness - or at least outline some economical way of to satisfy your craving for casting judgement on how welfare recipients spend their money?

4 Million on the Dole?

Secondly you don't have to screen everyone; thats the point of random screening. You dont even need a number of tests approaching near the arbitrary figure supplied.

Third it could be blood. It doesnt have to happen at the dole office; it could happen at the Doctor's, with results added on file if and only if the person tests positive for illegal substances, and only that information need be stored.

generalmiaow

Overheal wrote: »

4 Million on the Dole?

Secondly you don't have to screen everyone; thats the point of random screening. You dont even need a number of tests approaching near the arbitrary figure supplied.

Third it could be blood. It doesnt have to happen at the dole office; it could happen at the Doctor's, with results added on file if and only if the person tests positive for illegal substances, and only that information need be stored.

I multiplied 4 hundred thousand by the number of months in a year, assuming we were testing only for cannabis, THC the only drug that spends enough time dissolved in fat to last a month. My hidden point is that you would need continuous testing (a lá on opiate rehab programs) for it to be any sort of deterrent, otherwise distilling it to randomised testing would be no more effective as an enforcement than law enforcement already is, and thus no more economical.

Apart from it being a disgusting and un-necessary invasion of bodily privacy.

Edit: Blood testing is less effective than urine testing since the body eliminates drugs from the blood before the urine.

Overheal

Fair enough.

What about screening only those with known drug disorders? For instance, those fired from work for drug use, etc. - whats done about them?

generalmiaow

Overheal wrote: »

Fair enough.

What about screening only those with known drug disorders? For instance, those fired from work for drug use, etc. - whats done about them?

They wouldn't qualify for Jobseeker's benefit if they were fired (I think ) and the only relevant jobseeker's allowance criterium is the actively-seeking-work one; (of course the premise of the thread is a change in this system) I would hope the DSFA would notice a harmful drug or alcohol habit or other disease in the supposedly regular interviews the offices do, though from what I can tell the departments are so understaffed they can't even schedule those interviews.

Personally I would love to live in the sort of paradise where this kind of close attention to the health of job seekers was paid - without taking liberties - it would strengthen people's ability to return to the workforce.

Though at the moment they don't seem to care if you are mentally ill or have cancer so I don't see costly addictions - and I don't mean spending 20 quid a week on buying a bag of weed, but stuff like heroin, cocaine, gambling, tesco value whiskey or prostitutes - ranking too highly compared to fraudulent claims of a more obvious sort like flying out to live in europe every month.

Overheal

Hmm. Good points, which ill sleep on.

Thanks miaow for the adult discussion

arybvtcw0eolkf

Talia Brave Tonsillitis wrote: »

I am aggressive by nature

I cure young lads of that all the time

Rabies

pwd banned.

Previously warned

Morpheus

How about...

All those in full time employment and those in unemployment benefit should suffer random drug tests. I think that selecting to target those of us unfortunate enough to be unemployed was quite shortsighted and insulting by the OP. I have been on the dole a few times, hey its life, youve a job one day the next your trying to fill in a massive amount of paperwork, feeling guilty because youve just been "let go due to unforseen economic circumcision!!!" ouch...

Back to drug tests, nationwide non discriminatory is the only way to go if we wander down this road. By their very nature random means random, it doesnt mean that every person (of the 450,000 unemployed and 1000,000 plus employed) are drug tested annually!!! instead a random small sample of people are drug tested at random times through the course of the working year. While were at it, include those on state pensions, nobody should be above the law. Also prisoners with statutory sentence increases for failing these tests.

They work by the THREAT that you too could suffer a test at any time, not that you are frogmarched en masse to a clinic once a year to be tested communist style!!!! With the knowledge that you COULD lose everything hanging over your head you would certainly think twice before you used that €100 note to sniff a line off your favorite strippers stomach (yes i go to classy places).

Back to reality, we should be very clear about WHY we want to introduce this, it should NOT be because joe shmo is suspected of being a layabout pot head on the dole ala Pineapple Express but because we want to eradicate the use of drugs and the completely related social, criminal, violent, health, mental and downright terrorist (in some cases) issues right across society.

It would go a long way to stamping out the widespread use of drugs in ALL classes of society in ALL levels of employment.

I WOULD support that.

Plus it would CREATE drugs for people in a new national drug screening task force.

[Jackass]

I say yes. Drug tests all round.

During the boom time, 90% of people on the dole (not disability) were lazy fu*ks who just wanted to sit around on their hole the whole time and had no interest in working.

Now, 90% of people on the dole are legit. But if the tax payer is paying your rent, your food and supporting you to get back on your feet (which you are more than entitled to, especially as a tax payer in the past and currently a victim of circumstance), I think luxury of drugs should not be allowed.

Think of the ramifications.

1. People, for fear of a lower dole cheque, say 100 bucks if failed drug test, will, in most cases, not do drugs...perhaps these are people who would have done it if this criteria didn't exist? This puts more money back into the economy and away from drug dealers etc.

2. If certain companies in Ireland wont employ you if you maintain a drug habit, why should the tax payer fully support your drug habit?

I think it's a good idea. Feck it, 90% of people have nothing to hide anyway, but I think this idea helps on many levels.

Morpheus

Man, you have to be careful what you say about the dole.

Can you prove 90% of people on the dole were not legit?

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement, i was on the dole TWICE during the boom and was NOT using it in an illegitimate way, I couldnt get any work in IT and ended up on the dole for a few months while looking for work, eventually gave up on IT temporarily and began working in a CD manufacturing plant for an agency on minimum wage and then in a stationary supply warehouse picking orders and packing pallets. eventually got back into IT and am still here currently (thank God) but I was glad of the dole however and I know that a lot more than 10% of people on it then were legitimate.

The solution is to make EVERYONE subject to random drug tests, this is coupled with a system of support if you ARE found out to be a drug user.

You have to keep your nose clean for a set period and undergo treatment and are required to return for secondary and tertiary drug tests at set periods over the next 18 months, you are also however STILL subject to the random drug tests in between. If this course of action fails you can THEN be penalised. This is the method used in the military and is PROVEN to be effective.

Herbal Deity

Protip: putting the word "completely" in bold doesn't make your point any more valid.

Renraw2

Drug tests in any form scare the bejesus out of me

Wazdakka

Red Storm wrote: »

OP, grow up! At the moment i'm currently on unemployment benefit, so i'm sorry if i'm draining your pocket. I'd like to think of it from the other side, if people didnt pay their taxes etc.. i would probably not recieve money every week, money which i depend on, money which half a million other people depend on to put food on the table and pay the bills. So i think a thank you is in order! Thanks to everyone who isnt a bigoted, snobbish prat that understands the position that a hefty portion of the 500,000 unemployed in this country are in!

Grow up?? What do you mean by that?
Did I once in my original post say that I agreed with the idea?
Did I say that I think it should be implemented?

No.

I never said anybody was draining me of my pocket either.

There have been a lot of really good points made on both sides of this but original question is getting lost a bit.

The issue isn't who is on the dole legitimately or not.
It's not whether the dole amount is adequate,
It's not about how unfortunate it is that in the current situation there are so many people who have been put in a position where they have to rely on the state for a steady income.
The issue isn't how many people drawing the dole want to get a job or what opinions some people have about those on the dole.

The issue is,
Is it acceptable for certain individuals to spend our money on drugs, booze and other non necessities in life?
Especially when those individuals have no intention of actively seeking employment.

If this isn't acceptable, does anybody have any ideas for how this could be controlled?
If drugs tests aren't feasible, what else can we do?

Or, are people happy with drugs just being a part of life?
if some people want to divert the state benefit that is there to help support themselves and their family towards drugs.. is that fine?
Are we happy with starving the baby to feed the addiction?

Truley

Out of interest if a parent tests positive for drugs and has their dole taken away from them what does that mean for his/her children? They would have to be put in care right? What if my partner tested positive but I didn't? Do we both get our dole taken away?

What about drugs tests for students in receipt of government grants?
What about breath tests for 'dolers' (since it's a much bigger drain on finances than weed)
Why only drugs, what about brand name clothes?
Or ice-cream? That's a luxury right?

And finally, why the f*ck would I pay taxes at all if I may not even get the social insurance? If my Jobseekers Benefit actually reflected what I paid in to the system, it would be a sh*t lot more than €200 a week :mad:

Morpheus

Truley wrote: »

Out of interest if a parent tests positive for drugs and has their dole taken away from them what does that mean for his/her children? They would have to be put in care right? What if my partner tested positive but I didn't? Do we both get our dole taken away?

See my post about an approach to this, its not a zero tolerance thing, you get a chance to sort yourself out, subjected to set drug tests over next 18 months but are ALSO still eligible to be random drug tested before the scheduled drug tests and must undergo some form of drug rehab. You shouldnt automatically lose the dole, or your job or your kids and your partner shouldnt suffer because of your failing the test and there should not be convictions until the above steps have all been exhausted.

As regards parents on drugs... personally I think if your a parent and taking drugs, you need to really ask yourself, in societies eyes, are you being a responsible parent?

What about drugs tests for students in receipt of government grants?

ALL of society should be subject or none at all. students on grants on drugs? no difference to you or me being on the dole or in employment and on drugs. Again they shouldnt automatically lose the grant or college place. they should have to go through the same process as everyone else.

Why only drugs, what about brand name clothes?
Or ice-cream? That's a luxury right?

now you are drawing away from the main topic of this thread. Ice cream and brand name clothes do not cause guns to spill onto our streets, create criminal empires, bring violence health addiction and mental problems to the home and family or cause further strife to society.

And finally, why the f*ck would I pay taxes at all if I may not even get the social insurance? If my Jobseekers Benefit actually reflected what I paid in to the system, it would be a sh*t lot more than €200 a week :mad:

well if you arent on drugs, you've nothing to fear.

Finally I dont think that the dole should be completely taken off someone, most of us know that if you are the dole and you were to suddenly lose even 25 euro of it a week that its a major setback, the less money you have the further it has to go.

The legal niceties and the steps in testing and consequences of this hypothetical approach to clearing drugs from society should probably be discussed in a different thread.

Herbal Deity

<Insert generic alcohol argument here>

"Clearing drugs from society" - I lol'd.

speedboatchase

Stupid idea and would probably be needlessly expensive. The problem is people "living" on the dole long-term, I like America's idea that every citizen is only entitled to a certain lifetime on time on social welfare, once they reach it they recieve a much lower standard of welfare. Or just booting people off after two years or forcing them to work if they refuse jobs

fartmaster

Talia Brave Tonsillitis wrote: »

Y
Not a fact. It's actually a load of crap. If you are buying weed, chances are it's grown in somebodies shed. This idea that all weed comes from a drug lord is hilarious. Some of it does, but a lot of it is home grown. It seems that YOU have to have a proper perspective of the situation... lol the irony.

actually it is not and you dont know much about were you get stuff from do you? the home grown stuff your on about is of poor standard grown by some one who got the recipe of a the back of pack of rice crispices. The only good home grown stuff in Ireland is done by some professional horticulturist who is probualy on the dole :pac:

The FACT is that the majority is not all drugs are imported by drugs dealing low lifes who are making a profit of YOU the addict. If you smoke one spliff or take all sorts of drugs does not alter the fact your paying money and funding criminals. I take great exception to people using taxpayers money for this, REGARDLESS of how you ended up on the dole I feel it is money you SHOULD be using towards a better purpose and would greatly welcome people been tested for drugs on the dole as it might force you to COP ON TO YOURSELVES as you clearly cant do this on your own accord.

Herbal Deity

http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8583000/8583499.stm

Truley

See my post about an approach to this, its not a zero tolerance thing, you get a chance to sort yourself out, subjected to set drug tests over next 18 months but are ALSO still eligible to be random drug tested before the scheduled drug tests and must undergo some form of drug rehab. You shouldnt automatically lose the dole, or your job or your kids and your partner shouldnt suffer because of your failing the test and there should not be convictions until the above steps have all been exhausted.

Drug rehab? For a spliff??? Do you realise how expensive that would be? We barely have those facilities for actual drug addicts. And are you telling me children wouldn't suffer from their mother going through that, least of all the anxiety it would cause.

As regards parents on drugs... personally I think if your a parent and taking drugs, you need to really ask yourself, in societies eyes, are you being a responsible parent?

I don't speak for 'society.' But I personally think parents who slap their kids or feed them chocolate are being irresponsible.

ALL of society should be subject or none at all. students on grants on drugs? no difference to you or me being on the dole or in employment and on drugs. Again they shouldnt automatically lose the grant or college place. they should have to go through the same process as everyone else.

Ha, by this stage we wont have any qualified nurses/doctors to carry out the tests.

now you are drawing away from the main topic of this thread. Ice cream and brand name clothes do not cause guns to spill onto our streets, create criminal empires, bring violence health addiction and mental problems to the home and family or cause further strife to society.

Where exactly do you think 99% of brand name clothes come from????? Disneyland? And commerical farming doesn't exactly have the best interests of animals or the environment at heart.

well if you arent on drugs, you've nothing to fear.

Why do I not believe that when it comes to the Government and an easily led and hysterical society :rolleyes:

Cheap Thrills!

Wazdakka wrote: »

The issue is,
Is it acceptable for certain individuals to spend our money on drugs, booze and other non necessities in life?

Yes, dole people are WELCOME to 'my' tax money for a few spliffs if they fancy it. In fact its THEIR money, most on the dole are recently unemployed (last year or two) remember. They paid their stamps for years in most cases.

A massive amount of people smoke weed daily/weekly. That wont change. Bringing in something like this would be fascist and that's not the type of society I want to live in.

We are in this mess (recession) because of greedy builders and corrupt politicians. What good does it to to turn on people on the dole and take out our frustrations on them? To all the smug people calling it 'our' taxes its everyones taxes and the dole bills is getting paid out of borrowings not taxes. Taxes are long ago spent and so are our taxes for the next 10 years. Poured into zombie banks run by the rich and corrupt.

Wazdakka wrote: »

Especially when those individuals have no intention of actively seeking employment.

That's a sperate issue from drugs. Plenty of people in full employment use recreational drugs. You can't use the use of recreational drugs as any kind of reliable indicator of who is and isn't worthy of a job/dole money.

Wazdakka wrote: »

If this isn't acceptable, does anybody have any ideas for how this could be controlled?
If drugs tests aren't feasible, what else can we do?

What, get a task force to follow people around and see if they are actively seeking employment? Wouldn't the resources for something like that be better sunk into actually CREATING jobs. People want to work. They don't want to be on the dole.

Wazdakka wrote: »

Or, are people happy with drugs just being a part of life?

Of course. They are part of life as much as a cup of tea. There is no 'stamping it out' any more than you can stamp out sex or booze.

Wazdakka wrote: »

if some people want to divert the state benefit that is there to help support themselves and their family towards drugs.. is that fine?
Are we happy with starving the baby to feed the addiction?

Addiction?
I'd say the amount of people addicted to drugs is relatively tiny in comparison to the amount of people who use them recreationally and have fully functional lives otherwise.

There is a vast difference between the two.

Morpheus

Herbal Deity wrote: »

<Insert generic alcohol argument here>

"Clearing drugs from society" - I lol'd.

Glad you find the concept funny, with the experiences Ive had, I dont find it one. bit. funny.

as for alcohol, yes it is a drug too, its not an illegal drug, but it has its own similiar related issues to illegal drugs. My gripe with the illegal drugs is that for every penny a drug user spends, some part of it is buying bullets and guns for the scroats and scumbags on our streets and they are funding them in some way. You surely cant deny this?

ronano

Even in theory if i was pro this it is not workable,the social welfare system is buckling under its own weight with simple assessments going to 2-3 months and signing on becoming once yearly rather than monthly. The measure i doubt would save any money if it could be introduced,there needs to be radical reform of the social welfare system to stop it being abused,to speed up the whole process but this aint it.

ScumLord

Morphéus wrote: »

Glad you find the concept funny, with the experiences Ive had, I dont find it one. bit. funny.

as for alcohol, yes it is a drug too, its not an illegal drug, but it has its own similiar related issues to illegal drugs. My gripe with the "non alcoholic" drugs is that for every penny a drug user spends, some part of it is buying bullets and guns for the scroats and scumbags on our streets and they are funding them in some way. You surely cant deny this?

I can, I buy my weed from a pacifist grower.

It's the law that creates the black market, you cannot blame a chemical or dead plant matter for the consequences of peoples decisions.

Gang of Gin

orourkeda wrote: »

Should we have a spelling test before people can post on boards.

"unimployment" - come on there are just no excuses for this.

Hahaha. Can't seem to find where it was written though. This thread is ridiculous, but your post got a good guffaw out of me!


Oh, excuse me, the opening line. Duh.