Is it time for Rafa to go?

eagle eye

I know there has been plenty about this but I just wanted to see what people think right now. As a result there is a poll with both a Liverpool supporters option yes and no, as well as one for the rest of us who don't support them. And names are not hidden so if you vote claiming to be a Liverpool fan it will show up.

Anyways back to what this is about.

My thoughts:
I firmly believe that Rafa Benitez is a hypnotist, the amount of Liverpool fans that have stuck with him over the last few years is incredible. I don't like the man at all but I respect what he has done in the past in management at Valencia and his Champions League success at Liverpool too even though he dismantled that team in the aftermath.
But now I just think its a case of him being there too long and its just not happening. Liverpool had a good run in the EPL last year but Houllier got second when he was at Liverpool and the fans were behind him for a long time too but things did not improve.
The reason the support for Benitez amazes me is that there are no trophies but even more importantly the football is dire to watch more often than not. At least if fans were being entertained I could understand this support for him.
Personally I think Liverpool fc has ground to a halt under Benitez, they have become stale for want of a better word.

So whats your thoughts.

PS. And don't forget the poll will show what you voted for.

Eire-Dearg

I don't think he should, but he will. The lure of Juventus coupled with the problems he's having with the owners and whatnot, he'll be managing an Italian team next season.

I think a this stage its a dead cert he'll leave, but I don't fear that one bit, his time is over at the club.

What I am afraid of is who we could possibly get in to replace him.

He has a lot of flaws, every manager has his flaws, unfortunately his ones have been microscoped by rival fans, the media and even LFC fans not in the pro-Rafa camp time and time again.

What we will lose is a master tactician on his day, a sublime strategist and a perfectionist with a huge love for this club. I think the way we have gone backwards this season more then anything has been his downfall, not the amounts of cash he has spent or the amount of players that have come and gone.

It's just been an horrifically unlucky season.

Boggles

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

I don't think he should, but he will. The lure of Juventus coupled with the problems he's having with the owners and whatnot, he'll be managing an Italian team next season.

Again Liverpool fans talk like he is above all blame.

He has made a balls of it. Why do you think he should stay?

GSPfan

All others No Rafa should stay

I have a sneeky feeling that Martin O'Neill would take the Liverpool job if it became available. He has layed the foundations for an Exit from Villa already. I think he'd do well for Liverpool.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

no.
he is by far the best manager we could have at the moment, there are only 4/5 other managers i would think would do a better job and there is no way in hell we could get these. it would be stupid to fire him and replace him with someone inferior.

also how have we "ground to a halt"? one bad season is "ground to a halt"? 5th, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd
if we finish this season 6th and next season outside the top 4 then yes we have ground to a halt but if we're top 4 next year then no.

also e have the 5th highest wage bill therefor our realistic aim is 5th, anymore is impressive...

MON? fcuk off...

Eire-Dearg

Boggles wrote: »

Again Liverpool fans talk like he is above all blame.

He has made a balls of it. Why do you think he should stay?

He is not above all blame, like I said he has some flaws - all managers has flaws, but you try working in such a hostile environment when day in day out you are being scrutonised to every minute detail.

One of his flaws came in the transfer market. He bought a decent striker who is now regarded as one of the best, same goes for a goalkeeper and a centre midfielder. The Alonso/Barry saga was probably his biggest mistake. But when it came to filling the squad with cheap but good players it didn't work out, and it all added up.

His time is done, but unless we can get in a suitable replacement and not just a stop gap for one year/6 months, we could take another step back.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

surely the only important number is how many liverpool fans think he should go, coz i know if this was a "Should Alex Ferguson retire" poll i'd be voting yes...

Handsome Bob

All others Yes Rafa should go

What I said in the superthread:

I have been critical of Rafa in the past over various issues. That's not the point though. The point is that due to our current situation, we will not be bringing in a manager that rivals or surpasses Rafa Benitez's ability. Thus, I think it's best that Liverpool fans see this season as a write off and see how Rafa does next season. If it's as bad as this season then it would be hard to deny that a change is needed. However, due to the realistic alternatives to Rafa right now I think we should take that risk of another bad season.

Eire-Dearg

BastardPrince wrote: »

surely the only important number is how many liverpool fans think he should go, coz i know if this was a "Should Alex Ferguson retire" poll i'd be voting yes...

Of course. Its just another one team vs another poll that'll fizzle out unceremoniously.

greendom

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

surely the only important number is how many liverpool fans think he should go, coz i know if this was a "Should Alex Ferguson retire" poll i'd be voting yes...

Well I'm not a Liverpool fan, but I voted for Benitez to go as he's not good enough for Liverpool. If I was voting out of self-interest (as an Arsenal fan) I'd say keep him as he is a hindrance to one of our main competitors.

Eire-Dearg

For those voting he should go because he's not good enough - care to drop some names who are just as good or better that we realistically replace him with?

Anyway, it'll be very interesting to see him at the end of the game tomorrow, if he knows it's his last at Anfield he might drop a hint in his demeanor.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

greendom wrote: »

Well I'm not a Liverpool fan, but I voted for Benitez to go as he's not good enough for Liverpool. If I was voting out of self-interest (as an Arsenal fan) I'd say keep him as he is a hindrance to one of our main competitors.

wait how many ties has rafa finished ahead of wenger? so far 3/5 seasons he's been there, after this season 3/6 (an its the same record in the cl except we made 2 finals and actually won one), yeh he's definitely helping arsenal do better....

Boggles

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

He is not above all blame, like I said he has some flaws

In fairness the post I replied to is alot different to the post you have up now.

hitman79

Definately not time for Rafa to go. I reckon give him a new contract for maybe 10 years and double the £250 million he has already spent on players so that he can make more amazing tactical decisions like he did on Thursday night. Changing right backs with 10 mins to go when your team needs a goal is Steve Staunton type stuff.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

hitman79 wrote: »

Definately not time for Rafa to go. I reckon give him a new contract for maybe 10 years and double the £250 million he has already spent on players so that he can make more amazing tactical decisions like he did on Thursday night. Changing right backs with 10 mins to go when your team needs a goal is Steve Staunton type stuff.

if you dont see the difference between how degen played in that position and how masch played in that position i dont think you should be allowed watch football...

i suppose pep guardiola was crazy for taking ibra off and putting a central defender up top:rolleyes:

greendom

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

wait how many ties has rafa finished ahead of wenger? so far 3/5 seasons he's been there, after this season 3/6 (an its the same record in the cl except we made 2 finals and actually won one), yeh he's definitely helping arsenal do better....

So you're happy to finish behind Arsenal on 3/6 occasions. Don't you think Rafa is living of that Champions League success. This season's team is so inferior to that one.

Boggles

BastardPrince wrote: »

i suppose pep guardiola was crazy for taking ibra off and putting a central defender up top:rolleyes:

Not the best example.

Ibra was for Bojan wasn't he?

Who should have put the tie away.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

I think he will go sooner rather than later and probably rightly so, maybe more so because of the financial restrictions being placed on him recently which don't seem to suit his style of management. Maybe he should hang on for a takeover bid but, if that doesn't come this summer, I really think he'll go.

Last year Liverpool did have the season of their lives, they were just unlucky that United were that much better. So, he is capable of producing the goods. Will he ever do it consistently? I'm not so sure!

As for a replacement? Fúck knows! I don't think Mourinho would go there without cash but, if Benitez got cash he probably wouldn't leave!

BastardPrince wrote: »

wait how many ties has rafa finished ahead of wenger? so far 3/5 seasons he's been there, after this season 3/6 (an its the same record in the cl except we made 2 finals and actually won one), yeh he's definitely helping arsenal do better....

I'd be of the opinion that generally speaking, there isn't much between Liverpool and Arsenal.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

greendom wrote: »

So you're happy to finish behind Arsenal on 3/6 occasions. Don't you think Rafa is living of that Champions League success. This season's team is so inferior to that one.

what right do we have to do any better? we have the 5th highest wage bill in the league, therefor we should expect 5th, for rafa to have done better is brilliant.

rafa is probably still living off his cl winners medal, runners up medal, cl semi final run and cl quarter final run in 6 years yes but isnt wenger still living off his league win from 7 years ago...

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

Yes he should go. Liverpool need a fresh approach and fresh ideas.

Rafa is a good manager but he is done as far as Liverpool are concerned and will not take them to the next level, which is ultimately where they want to be.

I'm sure if it's change the fans are afraid of but at this stage it's strange why so many want him to stay when they've actually gone backwards lately.

Boggles

jasonorr wrote: »

Last year Liverpool did have the season of their lives, they were just unlucky that United were that much better.

Liverpool had the added advantage being out of all cup competitions early.

Arsenal, Chelsea and United were all heavily involved in cups into the final stages.

The Arse had problems in the camp and Chelsea had manager problems.

Perspective takes the gloss off it, but perspecitve is needed IMO.

hitman79

BastardPrince wrote: »

if you dont see the difference between how degen played in that position and how masch played in that position i dont think you should be allowed watch football...

i suppose pep guardiola was crazy for taking ibra off and putting a central defender up top:rolleyes:

He had a striker on the bench? What difference did Degen make? BTW im not a Liverpool fan. Just hope Rafa stays.

As for Ibra? Most centre halfs would do more up front that him!

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Boggles wrote: »

Not the best example.

Ibra was for Bojan wasn't he?

Who should have put the tie away.

why not? he took off the player he bought so they could lump the ball up to him then moved a defender into that position 10 mins later.

anyway masch was employed on thursday to keep simao quiet which he did, when atleti scored that didnt matter anymore so rafa brought on an attacking wing back who instantly got involved further up the pitch than masch was and can actually beat players unlike masch...

greendom

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

what right do we have to do any better? we have the 5th highest wage bill in the league, therefor we should expect 5th, for rafa to have done better is brilliant.

rafa is probably still living off his cl winners medal, runners up medal, cl semi final run and cl quarter final run in 6 years yes but isnt wenger still living off his league win from 7 years ago...

Perhaps, but at least he has brought Champions League football to Arsenal every season? 5th highest wage bill - Is it the 5th highest transfer spend as well ?

Kess73

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

For those voting he should go because he's not good enough - care to drop some names who are just as good or better that we realistically replace him with?

Has that not been done many times already in the LFC superthread?

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Yes he should go. Liverpool need a fresh approach and fresh ideas.

Rafa is a good manager but he is done as far as Liverpool are concerned and will not take them to the next level, which is ultimately where they want to be.

I'm sure if it's change the fans are afraid of but at this stage it's strange why so many want him to stay when they've actually gone backwards lately.

gone backwards in one season, yes but since when is one data point enough to prove an hypothesis?

do you honestly think we can get a manager who could win the league at the moment? and if so who?

if rafa is so bad why cant people think of realistic alternatives (who have actually won proper leagues and trophies)

Eire-Dearg

Boggles wrote: »

In fairness the post I replied to is alot different to the post you have up now.

Aye, I edited it a bit while you were replying.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

isnt wenger still living off his league win from 7 years ago...

Wenger has been working with no real budget ever since the FA Cup win, Benitez has only been doing it for the last two seasons...I don't really think their achievements have been comparable!

Boggles

BastardPrince wrote: »

do you honestly think we can get a manager who could win the league at the moment? and if so who?

The League?

That boat has sailed if it ever was afloat in the first place.

What Liverpool need now is someone to bring a bit of humility back to the club, get rid of the dross and try get back into the CL.

mike65

I love it when fans of the game declare they "like/don't like" a manager as if it were remotely relevant.

Should he go is a moot point, 'will he go?' is the question to consider.

If one makes an admitely large assumption (that new owners do not install thier own man) then all depends on what scope exists for the squad under new ownership, if the finances for players don't really add up and it looks like he has to "recycle" funds to buy then he'll walk. If he goes anywhere it will probably be Juventus as they really do appear to want him they do have a fresh 80 million euro player budget to play with and a new stadium on the way.

There is another, domestic angle to this - It would be a reluctant leaving, his wife and children are apparently completely at home in Liverpool and do not want to leave and it could turn out that if he doesn't go it'll be down to his family as much as his desire to succeed with Liverpool FC.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

greendom wrote: »

Perhaps, but at least he has brought Champions League football to Arsenal every season? 5th highest wage bill - Is it the 5th highest transfer spend as well ?

this is a stat a villa fan told me the other day, so i cant say if it 100% accurate

since MON took over at Villa he has a net spend of £88m, spurs have £75m, liverpool £43m, Arsenal £26m, Chelsea £52m, City £250m, Utd £46m

so what is that? 6th, if those numbers are accurate...

WIZE

Im no liverpool fan but I think he should stay .

Liverpool FC has confusion written all over it and for them to lose their manager now will just make it worse

Raffa should be given another year under the new owership to see whats available to him . I think he is why great players will sign for Liverpool at the moment

If he is given decent money for signing players for next seasonto come is the top 4 or at least win a cup and ****s up then he should go

I have a feeling he will leave of his own accord in the next few weeks

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

gone backwards in one season, yes but since when is one data point enough to prove an hypothesis?

Well I'd just be worried if I was a Pool fan. Trends start somewhere, and I don't think the fans could face another season like this.

do you honestly think we can get a manager who could win the league at the moment? and if so who?

The managerial merry go round will be out in force again after the World Cup. Liverpool are a massive club and wil interest big names.

There doesn't have to be someone available right now, they could pop up in the summer.

if rafa is so bad why cant people think of realistic alternatives (who have actually won proper leagues and trophies)

I'm sure Rafa wasn't the name on everyone's lips when Houllier left. I certainly didn't know much about him.

What's to say that a Laurent Blanc type couldn't come in if approached?

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

this is a stat a villa fan told me the other day, so i cant say if it 100% accurate

since MON took over at Villa he has a net spend of m, spurs have m, liverpool m, Arsenal m, Chelsea m, City m, Utd m

so what is that? 6th, if those numbers are accurate...

No offence but, it's hórséshít! Wenger has made ~ since O'Neill signed for Villa and ~m if you want to ignore this season's transfer dealings. To get that figure so wrong, I'd seriously question the others!

EDIT: It also ignores a net spend of over £50m by Rafa in the two previous seasons!

astrofool

I think he should stay, and I think you should have stuck with Houllier. In fact I want every season for 20 years to end with a "Will Rafa go?" thread . I don't think he'll ever win the league with Liverpool, he may get you another cup eventually, if you stick with him long enough. Not being in the CL is a massive blow for the club (if it pans out that way, still a chance yet...).

I don't buy the wage bill stuff, Chelsea have the highest wage bill, and haven't won the league in three years.

[edit]As an aside, seeing him go would be hilarious for some posters here, such is their love for Rafa, but seeing him in charge long term is even more hilarious[/edit]

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well I'd just be worried if I was a Pool fan. Trends start somewhere, and I don't think the fans could face another season like this.

11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd, 1st

i guess alex ferguson should have been sacked in this third season then as 'trends start somewhere'...

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

No offence but, it's hórséshít! Wenger has made ~£35 since O'Neill signed for Villa and ~£4m if you want to ignore this season's transfer dealings. To get that figure so wrong, I'd seriously question the others!

whats the site with all the spends? does it have net and total?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

he should go for his own sake, but in saying that, he should've walked two years ago when it became apparent that the americans weren't interested in improving the club. but for Liverpool's sake, him leaving would be a bad bad thing, for that reason i hope he stays. the likes of Hodgson etc are good managers but not near as good as Rafa.

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, 6th, 2nd, 1st

i guess alex ferguson should have been sacked in this third season then as 'trends start somewhere'...

Football's a different game now though. Fans demand success and it needs to be delivered for a big club. Rafa won't deliver the league.

You ignored my other points about who would come in btw so I can only assume that agree that there could be someone out there that just hasn't cropped up yet.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

whats the site with all the spends? does it have net and total?

I use transferleague.co.uk, no site is completely accurate, I accept that, but Wenger definitely hasn't spent what you claim. It has net totals for each season, you just have to add them up.

Anyway, this is about Rafa not Wenger and I've already said all that I want to say about him above.

Handsome Bob

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

I'm sure if it's change the fans are afraid of but at this stage it's strange why so many want him to stay when they've actually gone backwards lately.

One bad season doesn't constitute going backwards. If it's more of the same next season then yes, we'd be going backwards. If Man U had taken your mentality their saviour would have been sacked by now.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

LZ5by5 wrote: »

One bad season doesn't constitute going backwards. If it's more of the same next season then yes, we'd be going backwards. If Man U had taken your mentality their saviour would have been sacked by now.

And Rafa is Liverpool's?

PHB

All others No Rafa should stay

If Benetiz is able to convince Torres, Mascherano and Reina to stay, then he should stay. If he can't, then he needs to go.

Liverpool are present have very little money, and are unlikely to be able to attract the highest quality player due to the lack of champions league football. He needs to be able to keep his truly talented players in order to get back into CL football. He's not going to be able to replace Torres with someone of similar quality if he leaves, ditto with Mascherano or Reina. If Rafa can keep them there, there's really nobody out there who will probably join Liverpool who is a better choice than him.

At the same time, I really think that the players need a change of something to get them going again. A change of manager is an easy solution to that, but its simply a question of who? I've yet to see any realistic names who I think would be better.

That said, objectively, if Liverpool had mony and could replace him, he has to go. Frankly, he's not going to win Liverpool the title ever I think.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Football's a different game now though. Fans demand success and it needs to be delivered for a big club. Rafa won't deliver the league.

You ignored my other points about who would come in btw so I can only assume that agree that there could be someone out there that just hasn't cropped up yet.

the club is in too much of a mess right now to bring in a big name, i agree if we had proper owners it is a different prospect but at the moment i think the best we could do would be mon, mark hughes or avram grant (obviosuly this will change but how many wc managers are actually very good club managers?) and any lfc fan who says they would be happier with any of them is either lying or a fool imo...

ilovelamp2000

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Yes it is time for him to go.

He had some success in the past but he has been unable to build a good cohesive squad, despite for the last six years, outspending every club in the UK that is run as a business. (Chelsea and Man City being the two he hasn't outspent).

His approach clearly hasn't worked and he is too stubborn to change his ways. Madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, and I do think any Liverpool fans that want him to stay are mad.

There is a cult like quality to some of the support he has, and it sometimes seems to be the case that some people who call themselves Liverpool fans don't really care about the club, they only care about Rafa. Which is quite bizarre.

LFC needs a clear out, get rid of the Yanks, get rid of Rafa. Start over.

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

Definately would hate it, if he went and couldn't see it as anything but a back-word step.

Considering the state of the club when he took over compared to where it is now I think he's done exceptionally well especially given the constraints he has been operating under. By rights Liverpool should probably have fallen out of the "top four" given just how poorly the club has been run in terms of off- the-field activites.

If he did go I would imagine that any other manager that came in would invariably be at a level below him.

For all those that reckon he isn't a good manager how do they reconcile the interest in him by big clubs like Juventus and Real Madrid?

Feck it if Kenny Dalglish thinks he's the best man for the job then that's good enough for me.

RandolphEsq

I support United but I don't think it is Benitez that caused them to have a bad season (1 bad season; this year. They were properly challenging for the title last year). It seems to me that the problems of Liverpool this year (lack of conviction for the most part) are coming from somewhere that isn't Benitez. He has done well with Liverpool and I think he should stay

ilovelamp2000

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

Considering the state of the club when he took over compared to where it is now I think he's done exceptionally well especially given the constraints he has been operating under.

We were a top four club and in the Champions League when he took over. He spent more money than everyone bar Chelsea and Man City in the last 6 years.

We're now seventh. And may be in the Europa League next year.

These are all facts.

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

Feck it if Kenny Dalglish thinks he's the best man for the job then that's good enough for me.

Kenny Dalglish also thought John Barnes was the right man for a big job.

Headshot

im really amazed pool fans still back him any other top 4 team in England or even in europe wouldnt put with him anymore

i hate the way he says" we need to new enforcements", that true but you cant be blaming the higher ups for that.

rafa came 2nd last season with more or less the same team, he bought an injury prone player and a RB who is very good but not 18m good and is barely keeping hold of 7th spot

Man utd barely bought during the summer, only first team player we bought was valenica, chelsea barely bought too

Boggles

To put it very simple Rafa has built a squad by his own admission is not good enough. He said yesterday he needs 5 players, giving him a generous success rate of 50% in the transfer market that means 10 players.

Liverpool can't afford to have him there, he has turned into a liability and Club as it is has enough liabilities to contend with.

Like I said they need to get someone in who will make the big decisions e.g. Sell Torres. Get rid of the rest of the dross, bring humility back to the club and build it so it can return in 2-3 years into a CL position, and then maybe bring in a big name that will take them to the next level.