Is it time for Rafa to go?

lordgoat

All others No Rafa should stay

As a united fan i'd love rafa their for the next 30 years. As a realist he should be gone at the end of the season. I'd view last season as overperforming as much as this season is underperforming. This year liverpool lacked imiganition, depth of squad and most importantly passion. Three things not quicky fixed.

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

OT: Transferleague isn't that reliable a source imo.

In the Liverpool spend thread (if anyone dares dig it up:eek:) I compared their figures to what I have recorded and pointed out a number of discrepancies.

By my reckoning Rafa's net spend currently stands at £67.42m over the course of his time at the club. This is also inflated in a sense by the very poor prices received for the squad he took over.

For the 48 players [including youths] who have been sold/let go when Rafa took over the club has received £51,839,150. That's an average of £1,079,982 per player. There was undoubedly some dross in that but it also included a lot of players who were sold for very poor returns.

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Kenny Dalglish also thought John Barnes was the right man for a big job.

Cheap jibe to be fair.

everdead.ie

All others No Rafa should stay

In fairness I do think that Gerrard has been poor compared to previous years and Toress has been injured an awful lot with those two injured or not perfoming it will never be easy for liverpool to win without those two. The real worry for next year is if gerrard picked last year and on his way down now?

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

Players who were at the club when Rafa took over
Owen 8,000,000
Baros 6,500,000
Cisse 6,000,000
Diouf 4,000,000
Riise 4,000,000
Heskey 3,500,000
Kirkland 3,000,000
Sinama-Pongolle 2,700,000
Murphy 2,500,000
Guthrie 2,500,000
Traore 2,000,000
Diarra 1,980,000
Warnock 1,500,000
Finnan 1,500,000
Le Tallec 1,100,000
Mellor 500,000
Potter 250,000
Peltier 209,150
O'Donnell 100,000
Babbel 0
Butler 0
Henchoz 0
Smicer 0
Biscan 0
Otsemobor 0
Calliste 0
Raven 0
Medjani 0
Hamann 0
Calliste 0
Raven 0
Cheyrou 0
Vignal 0
Woods 0
Whitbread 0
Partridge 0
Smyth 0
Platt 0
Mannix 0
Diao 0
Foy 0
Dudek 0
Idrizaj 0
Smith 0
Kewell 0
Hyypia 0
Foy 0
Welsh 0

Total £51,839,150

Players Rafa bought and sold
Garcia £6m £4m
Nunez £0m £1.5m
Pellegrino £0m £0m
Josemi £2m Kronkamp
Kronkamp £0m £2m
Morientes£6.3m £3m
Carson £.75m £3.25
Zenden £0m £0m
Barragan £0m £680k
Gonzalez £4.5m £4.2m
Sissoko £5.6m £8.2m
Crouch £7m £11m
Bellamy £6m £7.5m
Paletta £2m £1.5m
Pennant £6.7m £0m
Keane £19m £16m
Alonso £10.5m £30m
Arbeloa £2.6m £3.5m
Leto £1.85m £3m
Dossena £7m £3.8
Voronin £0m £1.8m
Mihaylov £0m £1.5m
Buchtman£0m £100k

Bought £87.8k
Sold £106.53k
Profit £18.73m

eagle eye

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

this is a stat a villa fan told me the other day, so i cant say if it 100% accurate

since MON took over at Villa he has a net spend of £88m, spurs have £75m, liverpool £43m, Arsenal £26m, Chelsea £52m, City £250m, Utd £46m

so what is that? 6th, if those numbers are accurate...

Those figures are wrong according to my information. Villa at 85m since O'Neill arrived, Liverpool 83m in the same time, Arsenal are in profit over that time period in the transfer market, United 10m, Chelsea 97m, City 235m and Tottenham 90m.

And yes thats net spend I'm talking about.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

OT: Transferleague isn't that reliable a source imo.

In the Liverpool spend thread (if anyone dares dig it up:eek:) I compared their figures to what I have recorded and pointed out a number of discrepancies..

As I said, no source is completely reliable and I'd be fairly confident in saying that about yours too. The only real discrepancy on the transferleague site is the Torres fee.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

eagle eye wrote: »

Those figures are wrong according to my information. Villa at 85m since O'Neill arrived, Liverpool 83m in the same time, Arsenal are in profit over that time period in the transfer market, United 10m, Chelsea 97m, City 235m and Tottenham 90m.

And yes thats net spend I'm talking about.

83m net spend seems about 100m off the figures MementoMori posted, thats quite a +/-

EDIT: sorry different time periods

Handsome Bob

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

And Rafa is Liverpool's?

As I said, when you look at it within the context of who is currently our manager and the list of people would be his realistic replacement, I don't think any of them could do any better than Rafa has. So we might as well keep him.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

83m net spend seems about 100m off the figures MementoMori posted, thats quite a +/-

You didn't understand MementoMori's post, took me a while to get it. He said earlier he reckons the net spend is £67.42m. The last post was just showing all the players that Rafa has bought and sold himself and made an £18.73m profit on them!

Eire-Dearg

Ah not this again.

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

There's more on the transferleague discrepencies here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63504700&postcount=2438

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63508786&postcount=2462

Perhaps this thread should be joined into the Haters going to hate thread?

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

Cheap jibe to be fair.

How? It's a fact.

Who else has Kenny said is the right man for a job? So far we have Rafa and Barnes.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

You didn't understand MementoMori's post, took me a while to get it. He said earlier he reckons the net spend is £67.42m. The last post was just showing all the players that Rafa has bought and sold himself and made an £18.73m profit on them!

obviously dont want to restart that debate but the 67m is players he bought and then moved on? surely if he sold all those players for the prices shown and bought all those players for the prices shown he has made the club 18m profit from transfers no?

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Who else has Kenny said is the right man for a job? So far we have Rafa and Barnes.

pretty sad...

eagle eye

All others No Rafa should stay

lordgoat wrote: »

As a united fan i'd love rafa their for the next 30 years. As a realist he should be gone at the end of the season. I'd view last season as overperforming as much as this season is underperforming. This year liverpool lacked imiganition, depth of squad and most importantly passion. Three things not quicky fixed.

See the thing is that I was just thinking about Alex Ferguson the other night after the Atletico Madrid. I was thinking to myself that Rafa is gone now, but if he had managed to win the Europa Cup that he would be very likely to still be there next season, much like Alex Ferguson only got to stay in charge of United after winning the FA cup in 1990, he was gone only for it. Like his performance at United was pathetic then, they finished 11th in 88/89 and 13th in 89/90 and they were without doubt the richest club and biggest spenders in English football at that time too.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

obviously dont want to restart that debate but the 67m is players he bought and then moved on? surely if he sold all those players for the prices shown and bought all those players for the prices shown he has made the club 18m profit from transfers no?

It's not a debate really, you're just misinterpreting what's being said. £67m is what the previous poster believes is Rafa's net spend. The other post is just an aside really, which says that of the players Benitez has bought and sold, he's made a profit of £18m. It doesn't take into account all the players still at the club that Benitez has bought!

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

There's more on the transferleague discrepencies here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63504700&postcount=2438

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63508786&postcount=2462

That's fair enough. I use it to get a general idea of what's being spent by clubs and it's good enough for that purpose.

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

pretty sad...

Huh?

It was said that Kenny thinks Rafa is the right man for the job. I said Kenny also thought Barnes was right for a big job. Is that incorrect?

Or is it that we can't question Liverpool legends?

lordgoat

All others No Rafa should stay

eagle eye wrote: »

See the thing is that I was just thinking about Alex Ferguson the other night after the Atletico Madrid. I was thinking to myself that Rafa is gone now, but if he had managed to win the Europa Cup that he would be very likely to still be there next season, much like Alex Ferguson only got to stay in charge of United after winning the FA cup in 1990, he was gone only for it. Like his performance at United was pathetic then, they finished 11th in 88/89 and 13th in 89/90 and they were without doubt the richest club and biggest spenders in English football at that time too.

I get your point but that's over 20 years ago. I don't think the same rules can be applied but if you do then that is a fair point. Not sure i'd agree with it. It's more from the performances this season i'm friends with a fair few 'pool fans and the apathy displayed this is unreal, no belief in the team/manager at all and from watching them i think this is what the team has also displayed at times.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Xavi6 wrote: »

Huh?

It was said that Kenny thinks Rafa is the right man for the job. I said Kenny also thought Barnes was right for a big job. Is that incorrect?

Or is it that we can't question Liverpool legends?

no i think it was pretty obvious you had made your point but i thought the line

Who else has Kenny said is the right man for a job? So far we have Rafa and Barnes.

was just goading and expected more from yourself...

Gillington

I get no better joy then watchin my Pool supporting mates trying to tell me that Rafa is still the right man for the job.

18 losses in all comps in one season is laughable,any other "Top 4" manager would be long gone.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

lordgoat wrote: »

I get your point but that's over 20 years ago. I don't think the same rules can be applied but if you do then that is a fair point. Not sure i'd agree with it. It's more from the performances this season i'm friends with a fair few 'pool fans and the apathy displayed this is unreal, no belief in the team/manager at all and from watching them i think this is what the team has also displayed at times.

these arent 'fans' that wanted rafa gone in 2008 and were almost upset when we did well in 2009? i know a few of those too...

_blank_

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

was just goading and expected more from yourself...

Er, no, it's a perfectly cromulent point.

Some people are just too fúcking sensitive.

I expected more from yourself

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

I voted yes, he should, and i'm a liverpool fan.

Not because i think he's not good enough, or we can necessarily have loads of better options (on paper) other than him.
- i think even the playing side of the club has gone stale, and needs a shakeup
- i don't think he's performing as well as he can in almost ANY facet of his job. Tactically, he's been poor this season. His substitutions have been at times baffling and even nonsensical. His use of Aquilani in the second half of the season was dissappointing to say the least. His actions in the transfer market over the last two years have not been nearly good enough.

I like Rafa a lot, and if he does leave, he'll leave us with fond memories, and i'll remember him as the best Liverpool manager i can remember.
If he does stay, i hope to god he can prove me wrong. I would love nothing more than to be coming back here in 12 months and admitting i was wrong.

What i'm saying is, where i liverpool's owners, i would probably look seriously at replacing him in the summer. I fully understand people's reasons for thinking differently. The ideal scenario would be for Rafa to still be here next season, and doing the job to the best of his ability. However, i don't think that this is a switch they can turn on and off, and the staleness and rot that's been affecting our team this season is quite probably still going to be an issue next season too.

Headshot

Des wrote: »

Er, no, it's a perfectly cromulent point.

Some people are just too fúcking sensitive.

I expected more from yourself

bloody knew you were a liverpool fan

(the vote)

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Des wrote: »

Er, no, it's a perfectly cromulent point.

Some people are just too fúcking sensitive.

I expected more from yourself

what's a perfectly cromulent point? that kenny doesnt necessarily get it right or potentially say what he really thinks? or that we should dredge up every time kenny has been wrong about someone?

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

For those voting he should go because he's not good enough - care to drop some names who are just as good or better that we realistically replace him with?

Anyway, it'll be very interesting to see him at the end of the game tomorrow, if he knows it's his last at Anfield he might drop a hint in his demeanor.

i don't think he's not good enough.
On ability and on past performance, take out Fergie and Wenger and he's up there as the best manager in the league.

I don't think he's performing nearly good enough. If you were to ask me to assess the performances of every manager in the league this season, he'd be firmly rooted in the bottom half for me.

I know he's had difficulties to work under, but his performance with regard team selections, substitutions, tactics, motivation, transfers have all been below par for me. That's not good enough. I know he's capable of much better, but i just think he's been here so long, has seen his "team" probably reach their peak, and i'm not sure if he has the necessary rebuilding in him. I'm also not sure if i have the appetite to allow him the time to do it.

lordgoat

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

these arent 'fans' that wanted rafa gone in 2008 and were almost upset when we did well in 2009? i know a few of those too...

Most of them have wanted him gone for a few seasons, last season made them say ok he's done really well can he build on it, and when he couldn't they are more convinced than ever. They're quite a reasonable bunch, they can acknowledge that yes he's brought the team along but don't have any faith in him to bring them a league title. And i'd by lying if i thought he could do it anytime soon. Do you think he deserves 3 more years to deliver a league?

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

lordgoat wrote: »

Most of them have wanted him gone for a few seasons, last season made them say ok he's done really well can he build on it, and when he couldn't they are more convinced than ever. They're quite a reasonable bunch, they can acknowledge that yes he's brought the team along but don't have any faith in him to bring them a league title. And i'd by lying if i thought he could do it anytime soon. Do you think he deserves 3 more years to deliver a league?

where did anyone say three? he deserves one more year, if things dont dramatically improve (cl spot & very much in contention for the league) then he should be gone...

rossie1977

hitman79 wrote: »

Changing right backs with 10 mins to go when your team needs a goal is Steve Staunton type stuff.

managers make strange decisions alright from time to time

what about ferguson bringing off rooney replacing him with o'shea meaning utd had no striker on the field which played into bayerns hands

personally i think the mistake wasn't bringing on degen the other night but not shutting up shop at 2-0 and bringing on the greek

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

There's more on the transferleague discrepencies here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63504700&postcount=2438

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=63508786&postcount=2462

Perhaps this thread should be joined into the Haters going to hate thread?

To be frank, why does it ****ing matter? You throw a ±£20m to the 5 year net spends, they still tell you the same thing: Villa and Spuds spent as much as a top 4 side just to get into the Europa league spots. Everton and Arsenal have been limited to what pennies they find under the couch. Man United's relative spending has slowed, City and Chelsea took the piss...

But the big thing that stands out is that Liverpool are the only ones who've spent relatively heavily who's squad is arguably weaker than it was 5 years ago and who's competitiveness has gone backwards...

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

rossie1977 wrote: »

managers make strange decisions alright from time to time

what about ferguson bringing off rooney replacing him with o'shea meaning utd had no striker on the field which played into bayerns hands

personally i think the mistake wasn't bringing on degen the other night but not shutting up shop at 2-0 and bringing on the greek

it wasnt a strange decision...

lordgoat

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

where did anyone say three? he deserves one more year, if things dont dramatically improve (cl spot & very much in contention for the league) then he should be gone...

I think the current team need at least three seaons improvement to be anywhere near the top of the league, i don't think the money is there to get in 5 tops players needed.

But by your logic let's say he get's 4th next season and is second i the league? That's not any improvement on last season. I think if that happened this season it's still not good enough.

Xavi6

All others No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

what's a perfectly cromulent point? that kenny doesnt necessarily get it right or potentially say what he really thinks? or that we should dredge up every time kenny has been wrong about someone?

Well it was brought up by a Pool fan that his opinion is a good enough reason for Rafa to stay.

To point out that Kenny's opinion is not necessarily one to be following is very valid.

_blank_

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well it was brought up by a Pool fan that his opinion is a good enough reason for Rafa to stay.

To point out that Kenny's opinion is not necessarily one to be following is very valid.

Oh my god, you slagged Kenny.

You bastard.

ROCKMAN

Think Rafa days are numbered ,to be honest.IMO
However what is more important IMO for Liverpool Football Club is keeping the spine of the club in place no matter what, In Reina , Mascherano and Torres they have arguable the best team spine on show in the EPL.
Keeping these three at the club would help attract any new manager and give the new boss a hell of a base to build a new team around.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Des wrote: »

Oh my god, you slagged Kenny.

You bastard.

:rolleyes: yeh thats not what i said...

Xavi6 wrote: »

Well it was brought up by a Pool fan that his opinion is a good enough reason for Rafa to stay.

To point out that Kenny's opinion is not necessarily one to be following is very valid.

you did that, we got the point - i just thought there was no need to go on about it as you did, but fair enough, whatever...

adox

BastardPrince wrote: »

:rolleyes: yeh thats not what i said...



you did that, we got the point - i just thought there was no need to go on about it as you did, but fair enough, whatever...

But he only went on about it when he was called into question by other posters. It was a perfectly valid point to make anyway. Have a read back over the posts and you may change your mind.

doc_17

All others Yes Rafa should go

Its amazing how many fans of other teams are obsessed with Rafa. I think its highly unfair not to give him another year. This has been the only year the team has gone backwards under Rafa. You don't get rid of him unless you have something "special" to replace him with.

But I think he will leave. Since the chelsea fan was hired to sell the club there have no other priorities i.e investment in team or stadium development. The Pool fans that think it's bad now and want Rafa gone will look back to April 2010 and call these the good old days, cos with Rafa gone the floodgates will open. They will appoint a stooge (think Terry Venables at Leeds) and sell off the cown jewels and walk away with millions.

adox

doc_17 wrote: »

Its amazing how many fans of other teams are obsessed with Rafa.

I don't think any fans of other teams are obsessed with Rafa. However when asked a question, I'd expect them to have an opinion.

doc_17

All others Yes Rafa should go

Yeah fair point. Maybe I should have said "It's amazing how many fans of other teams there are that are obsessed with asking questions like Should Rafa go and then talking it to death"

ziggyman17

BastardPrince wrote: »

where did anyone say three? he deserves one more year, if things dont dramatically improve (cl spot & very much in contention for the league) then he should be gone...

With the amount of money he has spent, a cl spot and in contention for the league every season should be a given.. The facts are apart from Torres and to a lesser extent a couple of more players, his transfer dealings have been a disaster.. He has wasted millions on third rate players.. If there was a league title for excuses, Rafa would win it every year.. Apart from last season, Liverpool have never been in contention for the league with Rafa as manager..

SlickRic

oh good.

i was wondering when this kind of thread would be created again.

i'm not sure if i trust him to bring us forward, simple as. i think he should get the start of next season, regardless of whether the ownership situation is sorted out, to prove this season was just one big, dirty hiccup.

another similar outlook next season, i'm pretty sure any patience i have left will be gone.

Johnny Utah

Not time to go just yet..... he still has a job to do in stopping United win the league!





(Think about it).

lordgoat

All others No Rafa should stay

Johnny Utah wrote: »

Not time to go just yet..... he still has a job to do in stopping United win the league!





(Think about it).

LOL, if that's what some liverpool fans want from their manager, it speaks volumes about them.

Ric at times i feel bad at the company you have to keep!!

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

Concentrate on your own club is all I say what has Rafael Benitez got to do with non-LFC supporters really.

But our club is truly ****ed if he goes because he is the one person in the club who is close to what made this club great. If the rumours are true and tomorrow is his last home game as Reds manager I think a some of the parasite supporters that exist within our club need to hang their heads in shame with their stupid idiocy on phone-in shows, on the net via forums because our club is well and truly the next leeds if he goes because we won't get a replacement that has the same CV as Benitez or will the new replacement have funds to buy players because they will have to sell to buy.

This season has being an accumulation of the finanical mismanagement at the top of our once great club which is slowing dying before our eyes and some of our supporters are blind to what a mess our club has got itself in since it was sold to this dickheads by Moores who sold the family silver down the river.

From John Houlding who founded the club right through to Bill Shankly, Bob Paisley, Joe Fagan would be turning in their graves.

Along with that if Rafa does go Kenny Dalglish, I know this is controversial and he is a legend but will have questions to answer about his role since last summer.

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

5ForKeeps wrote: »

Concentrate on your own club is all I say what has Rafael Benitez got to do with non-LFC supporters really.

Ah **** off with that ****e. This is a football discussion forum, we're free to discuss whatever the **** we like. Bugger off to Rawk or some other Pool wankfest if you can't handle it.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Ah **** off with that ****e. This is a football discussion forum, we're free to discuss whatever the **** we like. Bugger off to Rawk or some other Pool wankfest if you can't handle it.

Bugger off ha ha nice use of the English Language did that come with a receipt.

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

5ForKeeps wrote: »

Bugger off ha ha nice use of the English Language did that come with a receipt.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.