Is it time for Rafa to go?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

it really is quite simple for me, a bad season is simply not enough to warrant sacking someone who's done so much good for our club-and be under no illusion, virtually every one who wasn't mentally retarded could see how well he was doing up until this season. sacking cause of one season is a little bit 'Newcastle' for my tastes.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

it really is quite simple for me, a bad season is simply not enough to warrant sacking someone who's done so much good for our club-and be under no illusion, virtually every one who wasn't mentally retarded could see how well he was doing up until this season. sacking cause of one season is a little bit 'Newcastle' for my tastes.

Or 5 seasons out of six where he didn't challenge for the league.

Not saying I really want him gone - just adding some balance.

Jazzy

probably. hard to say tbh, im still very much undecided. there are easily as many negatives as there are positives.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

that's not balance though to be honest, again its a little bit 'Newcastle', Liverpool have genuinely challenged for how many league titles in the last 10 years? 2? How many in the last 20 years?

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr Alan wrote: »

it really is quite simple for me, a bad season is simply not enough to warrant sacking someone who's done so much good for our club-and be under no illusion, virtually every one who wasn't mentally retarded could see how well he was doing up until this season. sacking cause of one season is a little bit 'Newcastle' for my tastes.

No trophy since 2006 doesn't sound like much for your club.

Mr Alan Didn't you tell me earlier in the season that if Liverpool finished out of the top four you'd question his position at the club?

My view on Benitez is that he will never win a title with Liverpool. On the other hand the way he has handled the club I'm not sure if a manager coming in can do much better at the moment. If they can't find an adequate replacement then I reckon they are better off hanging on to him and hoping he can make Liverpool a top four club again.

The fact that is Liverpool's objective now though indicates to me that his tenure has has been largely a failure. When he took over Liverpool they were a top four side and the hope was he would make them a title challenger. He did that last season however this season they look out of the top four and appear even further away from winning the league. Next season his remit, if he's there, will be to get Liverpool into the top four so the club's target is the same as the likes of Villa and Spurs instead of the likes of United, Chelsea and Arsenal. That is not the hallmark of a successful manager imo.

The options he had on the bench against Atletico the other night were pretty awful and his tactics seem dubious at times.

I think the cold, hard reality for Liverpool fans is to ask themselves this - is the devil you know better than the devil you don't?

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

that's not balance though to be honest, again its a little bit 'Newcastle', Liverpool have genuinely challenged for how many league titles in the last 10 years? 2? How many in the last 20 years?

And the majority of those managers has fallen on their sword as a result, no?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

i have questioned his position at the club, and i certainly amn't as sure as i was on his position at the start of the season. but again, i'll re-iterate-i'll never change my opinion on any manager or player totally cause of one season. i also don't buy that we can't challenge for the league next year with a little investment and a bit of luck.

jesus_thats_gre

All others Yes Rafa should go

Liverpool fans Yes Rafa should go
Adnan Alves, CivilServant, cougar1, Des, FreeOSCAR, KaG, Kess73, Mr Magnolia, Rosco1982, Stevecw, VinylJunkie, whatawaster

Out of curiosity, how many of those listed above aren't Liverpool fans?

wobblyknees

Boggles wrote: »

Again Liverpool fans talk like he is above all blame.

He has made a balls of it. Why do you think he should stay?

United fans in short sightedness shocker! Remember this banner?

"Three years of excuses and it's still crap. Ta ra Fergie."

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

noodler wrote: »

And the majority of those managers has fallen on their sword as a result, no?

Yep, but none of em performed in Europe nearly as well as Rafa. Nor should they have fallen on their swords cause of one bad year where everything that could go wrong went wrong. Nor did they have to reducing the clubs debt as an additional challenge for them.

Iago

I can't believe how often this comes up to be honest.

The phrase "cut your cloth accordingly" comes to mind.

Rafa should be kept until he decides to leave, and it's only once he leaves and another manager comes into the club that those that want him out will realise how lucky they were to have him.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

that's not balance though to be honest, again its a little bit 'Newcastle', Liverpool have genuinely challenged for how many league titles in the last 10 years? 2? How many in the last 20 years?

Surely that's every Liverpool managers main goal though? Win the Premier League or at least make them more competitive in the league! If you take a very simplistic look at how they've done:

Rafa:
2010: 7th
2009: 2nd
2008: 4th
2007: 3rd
2006: 3rd
2005: 5th

Pre Rafa:
2004: 4th
2003: 5th
2002: 2nd
2001: 3rd
2000: 4th
1999: 7th

It's probably far too simplistic but, in terms of league competitiveness there doesn't seem to be any improvement at all. The squad does, however, have more top class players than before and have been reasonably competitive in Europe. Is that enough? I don't know!

noodler

No can knock what he has done in Europe Al but this isn't just a bad season - I think finishing fourth wiithout ever having challenged for the League this year would have been viewed as a disappointment at the season's start.

The main reason I want Rafa to stay is fear rather than hope I am afraid.

I am not sure if that is the correct way to be.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

Iago wrote: »

I can't believe how often this comes up to be honest.

The phrase "cut your cloth accordingly" comes to mind.

Rafa should be kept until he decides to leave, and it's only once he leaves and another manager comes into the club that those that want him out will realise how lucky they were to have him.

Ding ding. Correct answer. There is a reason Real Madrid, Juve, AC etc are interested in him, and the best people can come up with to replace him are the likes of woy and hughes, who are at best are MASSIVE gambles and certainly not the calibre of Rafa.

1967

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

As far as i am concerned he has had five years and we are still no nearer to winning the league so thanks but goodbye.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

Surely that's every Liverpool managers main goal though? Win the Premier League or at least make them more competitive in the league! If you take a very simplistic look at how they've done:

Rafa:
2010: 7th
2009: 2nd
2008: 4th
2007: 3rd
2006: 3rd
2005: 5th

Pre Rafa:
2004: 4th
2003: 5th
2002: 2nd
2001: 3rd
2000: 4th
1999: 7th

It's probably far too simplistic but, in terms of league competitiveness there doesn't seem to be any improvement at all. The squad does, however, have more top class players than before and have been reasonably competitive in Europe. Is that enough? I don't know!

For me, it is now. There is also factors like the general improvement in the league and the fact that there's been no proper investment in the team in the last 2 years.

Headshot

I think rafa should leave right now before he falls any deeper, his team is getting weaker and weaker

yes im ashamed I know this song

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

For me, it is now. There is also factors like the general improvement in the league and the fact that there's been no proper investment in the team in the last 2 years.

How much has Rafa spent compared to the previous 6 seasons? A bit more I'd say. I don't think it's any real excuse though. Surely with the money he spent initially they should have been far more competitive in the league?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

he has a net spend of less than 70m as far as i know-that's in 5 years-i'd imagine its about the same as in the previous years, as you yourself said we have far better players though now-and other clubs are spending far more. incidentally, that figure is less than his brilliant european runs have brought in

jesus_thats_gre

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

Surely that's every Liverpool managers main goal though? Win the Premier League or at least make them more competitive in the league! If you take a very simplistic look at how they've done:

It's probably far too simplistic but, in terms of league competitiveness there doesn't seem to be any improvement at all. The squad does, however, have more top class players than before and have been reasonably competitive in Europe. Is that enough? I don't know!

I would think that it slightly simplistic. To elaborate on it further:

[B][U]Raf:[/U][/B]

Year 	Position	Points		Pts behind 1st	Pts behind +1	Pts ahead of -1

2010 	7th		62		18		2		4
2009 	2nd		86		4		4		3
2008 	4th		76		12		7		11
2007 	3rd		68		21		15		8
2006 	3rd		82		9		1		15
2005 	5th		58		37		3		0

Average:		72		17	


[B][U]Pre Rafa:[/U][/B]


Year 	Position	Points		Pts behind 1st	Pts behind +1	Pts ahead of -1

2004 	4th		60		30		15		4
2003	5th		64		19		3		4
2002	2nd		80		7		7		3
2001	3rd		69		11		1		1
2000	4th		67		24		2		2
1999	7th		54		25		1		2

Average:		65		19

Pts behind +1 = points behind the team that finished directly above
Pts behind -1 = points ahead of the team that finished directly behind

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

I would think that it slightly simplistic. To elaborate on it further:

[B][U]Raf:[/U][/B]

Year 	Position	Points		Pts behind 1st	Pts behind +1	Pts ahead of -1

2010 	7th		62		18		2		4
2009 	2nd		86		4		4		3
2008 	4th		76		12		7		11
2007 	3rd		68		21		15		8
2006 	3rd		82		9		1		15
2005 	5th		58		37		3		0

Average:		72		17	


[B][U]Pre Rafa:[/U][/B]


Year 	Position	Points		Pts behind 1st	Pts behind +1	Pts ahead of -1

2004 	4th		60		30		15		4
2003	5th		64		19		3		4
2002	2nd		80		7		7		3
2001	3rd		69		11		1		1
2000	4th		67		24		2		2
1999	7th		54		25		1		2

Average:		65		19

Pts behind +1 = points behind the team that finished directly above
Pts behind -1 = points ahead of the team that finished directly behind

Fair play for the effort but, that reads more or less the same to me!

jesus_thats_gre

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

How much has Rafa spent compared to the previous 6 seasons? A bit more I'd say. I don't think it's any real excuse though. Surely with the money he spent initially they should have been far more competitive in the league?

I think Liverpool are something like 220, United something similar, Chelsea 400 or something and Arsenal 160.

I have no idea what the net figures for the others are but I think Liverpool's migiht be 70 now. To elaborate on that further, it is a negative figure for the past 2 years.

All figures are pulled from a very vague memory.

MementoMori

All others Yes Rafa should go

jasonorr wrote: »

How much has Rafa spent compared to the previous 6 seasons? A bit more I'd say. I don't think it's any real excuse though. Surely with the money he spent initially they should have been far more competitive in the league?

In the last 18 months the negative net spend has been £22.6m
Is it any wonder that things haven't gone well this season?

2007 does look quite high but not when you consider Torres, Masch, Babel, Benayoun, and Lucas all arrived then.

2010: Negative Net Spend of £5.5m
2009: Negative Net Spend of £17.1m
2008: Net Spend of £12.74m
2007: Net Spend of £39.75m
2006: Net Spend of £17.37m
2005: Net Spend of £17.16m
2004: Net Spend of £3m

Exemplified by the bench on Thursday really

Cavalieri £3m
Kyrgiakos £2m
Dave £1.5m
Degen Free
El Zhar Free
Ayala Youth
Pachecho Youth - Comp of £350k

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

MementoMori wrote: »

In the last 18 months the negative net spend has been £22.6m
Is it any wonder that things haven't gone well this season?

18 months is very selective of you, how about the last two seasons? What about Arsenal and United over the same period with no real ill effect?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

United already had a title winning team in place two years ago though? So surely their spend since that period wouldn't need to be as high. Plus there's the fact that they are a worse team this year than last, and last than the year before.

wobblyknees

jasonorr wrote: »

18 months is very selective of you, how about the last two seasons? What about Arsenal and United over the same period with no real ill effect?

No ill effects? When is the last time Arsenal won something?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

Also Jason, its worth noting there was similar threads here last season about Wenger, however this season, somewhat out of the blue, has proven that the team is on the right track.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

wobblyknees wrote: »

No ill effects? When is the last time Arsenal won something?

When was the last time since the FA Cup win, in which they've spent no money, that they've taken a massive step backwards?

Otis Driftwood

Eire-Dearg wrote: »

It's just been an horrifically unlucky season.

Unlucky how exactly?

MementoMori wrote: »

Keane £19m £16m

It was a 7 million loss selling Keane back.There were performance related clauses tied in but it was only for 12 million cash.Seeing as Keane is pretty much done at Spurs then is unlikely anymore will go Liverpools way.Possibly a few quid for a sell on but thats about it.

wobblyknees

jasonorr wrote: »

When was the last time since the FA Cup win, in which they've spent no money, that they've taken a massive step backwards?

Sorry, not sure I understand?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

it rose to 15 with Spurs staying up last season, probably a loss of about 4m odd, maybe less, but certainly no more.

wobblyknees

nedtheshed wrote: »

Unlucky how exactly?





It was a 7 million loss selling Keane back.There were performance related clauses tied in but it was only for 12 million cash.Seeing as Keane is pretty much done at Spurs then is unlikely anymore will go Liverpools way.Possibly a few quid for a sell on but thats about it.

Conceding late goals in europe? Torres injury? Beach balls?

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

i'd add in Gerrards and Carra's form, every tom dick and harry scoring wonder goals against us as things that can't possibly repeat themselves next year!

_blank_

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

wobblyknees wrote: »

Conceding late goals in europe?

Hang on, conceding late goals cannot be construed as "unlucky" a match is a match and a goal is a goal, it's as unlucky to concede in the 25th minute as the 89th minute.

Otis Driftwood

wobblyknees wrote: »

Conceding late goals in europe? Torres injury? Beach balls?

Arsenal - Van Persie and countless others injured
Chelsea - Essien and a couple of others injured

Still well ahead of Liverpool.

Like Des said,a goal is a goal.

As for the beach ball,that was one game.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

Also Jason, its worth noting there was similar threads here last season about Wenger, however this season, somewhat out of the blue, has proven that the team is on the right track.

Out of the blue?

P   W   D   L   F   A  GD Pts
2009-2010:  35  22   5   8  78  39  39  71
2008-2009:  35  19  11   5  63  32  31  68 ( 4th)
2007-2008:  35  21  11   3  66  29  37  74 ( 3rd)
2006-2007:  35  18   9   8  59  33  26  63 ( 4th)
2005-2006:  35  17   7  11  58  28  30  58 ( 4th)

That thread was quickly shot down as you well know. This one, not so much! At the end of the day, I don't think Rafa has achieved what has to be his main target and should go on the basis of that. You don't agree, that's fair enough. Continuing this discussion any further is fairly pointless.

scudzilla

Rafa is doing a great job, he really just needs a few more years and he should then be able to consistently give the fans a trophy a season.

Yes he's been unlucky with most of his buys, a few have turned out quite well though.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

wat jumps out at me from that is that Liverpools points tally this season is likely to be the same/more than Arsenals for 3 of their last 5 seasons. the improvement in the teams just outside the top 4 really has come at such a unfortunate time for us.

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ding ding. Correct answer. There is a reason Real Madrid, Juve, AC etc are interested in him, and the best people can come up with to replace him are the likes of woy and hughes, who are at best are MASSIVE gambles and certainly not the calibre of Rafa.

Of course it is. It is what you want to hear.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

jason, the PL can't be a realistic target for Liverpool until we can 1. Invest consistantly in the team without having to sell to buy as a rule. 2. Increase our wage bill hugely up to the level of the teams who are competing for the league this year.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat jumps out at me from that is that Liverpools points tally this season is likely to be the same/more than Arsenals for 3 of their last 5 seasons. the improvement in the teams just outside the top 4 really has come at such a unfortunate time for us.

It's a bit of a moot point really, yer points tally last season would have won the premier league a lot of times...not last year though!

Mr Alan wrote: »

jason, the PL can't be a realistic target for Liverpool until we can 1. Invest consistantly in the team without having to sell to buy as a rule. 2. Increase our wage bill hugely up to the level of the teams who are competing for the league this year.

That's fair enough, I just feel his net spend in his first four seasons should have warranted a much better standing in the league and it didn't, which is probably where all my doubts about Benitez lie!

Bounty Hunter

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

wat jumps out at me from that is that Liverpools points tally this season is likely to be the same/more than Arsenals for 3 of their last 5 seasons. the improvement in the teams just outside the top 4 really has come at such a unfortunate time for us.

this is true, most of the stats put about where in a time when City/Spurs/Villa didnt really challenge the top 4 but the fact still remains that it is Liverpool who have dropped down into contention (actually below atm) these teams.

I voted he should go as a non Pool fan but in a strange way it wasnt as a Villa fan or as someone who does like Liverpool and was thinking of whats best for them but instead i was thinking what should Rafa do for Rafa? and imo unless the ownership situation changes immediatley Rafa's job at Liverpool is only going to get harder and the alternative of managing Juventus would imo be a whole lot more appealing.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

there is no doubt that if Rafa was to do what was best for him he should go now. in fact, he should've gone two years ago.

Bounty Hunter

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

there is no doubt that if Rafa was to do what was best for him he should go now. in fact, he should've gone two years ago.

the thing is both those seasons the future never looked this bleak, as ive said many times i like Liverpool but Unless the owners are replaced by someone who is willing to invest instead of saddle the club with more debt then i only see Chelsea, Utd and Arsenal and potentially City pull away from Liverpool whilst Spurs, Villa and Everton become full time rivals positionally for pool due to their quality and not just becuase Pool are having a shocking season. Now big clubs still would want Rafa i dont know if they will in a season.

Previously i suggested Hodgsen as a potential replacement (back before the Uefa run) and i dont know if that is a posibility at the moment (back then he was going to be out of contract with them after this season) but that would have been my ideal scenario. Liverpool get a quality manager who although not as high profile as Rafa the players would respect whilst he is also a man who knows the league and would at the least get them organised while Rafa could go and do a top job (which i believe he is capable of) elsewhere.

wobblyknees

nedtheshed wrote: »

Arsenal - Van Persie and countless others injured
Chelsea - Essien and a couple of others injured

Still well ahead of Liverpool.

Like Des said,a goal is a goal.

As for the beach ball,that was one game.

I'm not getting into an argument re injuries, squad sizes, money spent on players or wages as i like to deal in facts, not broad sweeping statements.

Just out of interest, would you say Nayim from the half way line wasn't unlucky? Seriously?

wobblyknees

jasonorr wrote: »

It's a bit of a moot point really, yer points tally last season would have won the premier league a lot of times...not last year though!



That's fair enough, I just feel his net spend in his first four seasons should have warranted a much better standing in the league and it didn't, which is probably where all my doubts about Benitez lie!

What was his net spend in his first four seasons? And how many players did he have to bring in to improve a squad containing the likes of Vignal, Le Tallec, Baros, Diao, Traore, Ferri, Diouf as well as losing Owen in his first year in charge.

Otis Driftwood

wobblyknees wrote: »

I'm not getting into an argument re injuries, squad sizes, money spent on players or wages as i like to deal in facts, not broad sweeping statements.

Just out of interest, would you say Nayim from the half way line wasn't unlucky? Seriously?

Thats 1 game.

Beach ball is 2.

The unlucky card only stretchs so far my friend.

Squad inability and managerial ineptitude are the crux of the matter and the blame for both lies solely at Rafas feet.

Out of the current squad,and for arguements sake a fully fit squad,how many players are actually worth a second glance?

Mascherano,Torres,Reina,Gerrard(though not on recent form)Johnson.

There may be one or 2 more but nobody automatically springs to mind.

The fact is Rafa has been paid handsomly to assemble a title challanging team and he hasnt done it in 6 years.I will let Robbie Keanes signing pass as it was forced upon him but AFAIK he is responsible for all other signings.He panic bought a lame duck in Aquilaini after been at fault for Alonso leaving.

He made ridiculous substitution decisions this season and last season.

Hicks and Gillette didnt make him do that.

I admire your ability to defend him but at the end of the day,if Liverpool are to become a force again they will not do so with him in charge.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

I think last year we probably over performed with Gerrard and Nando in the form of their lives and other squad players stepping up, many of them at their peak, the likes of Benny and Kuyt. Some luck was involved too, has to be for a title challenge. Keane was a disaster, whatever your opinion of what went on, yet we went on an incredible run of of form from March on.

This year, too many injuries, bad luck like what could go wrong did go wrong.

The truth is probably in the middle somewhere.

We have Nando, Masch and Reina who everybody can see are world class/ PL League winning players.

We have Johnson, Agger, Skyrtel and Acquilani, all relatively young and the potential to be great signings. Lucas and NGog may come to that level as well but definitely can improve.

Our problem is Gerrard, Carra, Benny and Kuyt are all probably past their peaks.

Its a team in transition and Rafa has said this.

Anyway, I think Rafa should stay for another season. The club is in enough turmoil as it is without the added uncertainty of a new managwe who may or may not have extra funds to add to the squad.

PS. The Masch situation is crucial for next season.

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

Iago wrote: »

I can't believe how often this comes up to be honest.

The phrase "cut your cloth accordingly" comes to mind.

Rafa should be kept until he decides to leave, and it's only once he leaves and another manager comes into the club that those that want him out will realise how lucky they were to have him.

This basically.

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

Also Jason, its worth noting there was similar threads here last season about Wenger, however this season, somewhat out of the blue, has proven that the team is on the right track.

You really have no idea what you're talking about tbh. I love how you frequently refer to last seasons premier league challenge by Pool, yet completely ignore Arsenal's the previous season in all discussion on the subject.