Is it time for Rafa to go?

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

leninbenjamin wrote: »

You really have no idea what you're talking about tbh. I love how you frequently refer to last seasons premier league challenge by Pool, yet completely ignore Arsenal's the previous season in all discussion on the subject.

That kind of proves his point though. Arsenal went from a title challenge to struggling to get 4th. They got it in part because of the usual Villa collapse. Its quite similar to Liverpool this season, except far more competition for 4th.

Panthro

rafa isnt too happy according to todays news.

jesus_thats_gre

All others Yes Rafa should go

leninbenjamin wrote: »

You really have no idea what you're talking about tbh. I love how you frequently refer to last seasons premier league challenge by Pool, yet completely ignore Arsenal's the previous season in all discussion on the subject.

Not enough attention to drawn to the fact that this happened. This has shown how a team can be turned around from season to season by getting rid of 1 or 2 bad eggs and replacing them.

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

K-9 wrote: »

That kind of proves his point though. Arsenal went from a title challenge to struggling to get 4th. They got it in part because of the usual Villa collapse. Its quite similar to Liverpool this season, except far more competition for 4th.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Not enough attention to drawn to the fact that this happened. This has shown how a team can be turned around from season to season by getting rid of 1 or 2 bad eggs and replacing them.

You've both completely missed the point (well, not that I made it well...).

Arsenal did not struggle for fourth last season, we beat Everton to it by 9 points, with a point tally of 72 (which will always guarantee a champo spot tbh). If anything, this season has been pretty much the same as last season. We've improved, but not by this massive significant margin, our highest potential points haul for the season is 78. Anyone who wrote Arsenal off last season was doing so out of sheer ignorance, which is the point I tried to make about Alan's comment last night.

Ardent

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

I think he'll be gone in the summer and about bloody time to be honest. It was madness offering him a 5 year contract - you can blame the RCDNW brigade for that. He has never displayed a capacity to adapt to the Premiership, last season included. Italian football might suit him better.

x in the city

I think he will be gone by 48 hours tbh.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Bottom line is the team isn't performing under Rafa. Some of the that is down to them but I think he has taken them as far as he can now.
Team didn't look a team evenly challenging for fourth spot today which shows you how far we have fallen back.

gosplan

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

Bottom line is the team isn't performing under Rafa. Some of the that is down to them but I think he has taken them as far as he can now.
Team didn't look a team evenly challenging for fourth spot today which shows you how far we have fallen back.

Bump.

So we have an 'is it time for Rafa to go' and a 'should rafa stay or go' thread.

Don't want to be back seat modding but this is silly.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

gosplan wrote: »

Bump.

So we have an 'is it time for Rafa to go' and a 'should rafa stay or go' thread.

Don't want to be back seat modding but this is silly.

Its a problem. with the main page that there are so many threads up that its hard to keep up. Its just a bit cluttered. But really if you have ever posted on a club forum its not that big an issue.
End of the day there were two identical polls on the race for fourth spot and champions league spot. Had no problem with either really.
End of the day report if it you are unhappy.

pokerface_me

All others No Rafa should stay

I think the guy has run out of ideas and has lost the dressing room. The premiership was just a step to far for him, i firmly believe that he had the squad in 2007/2008 to do it. To much mucking about with the team and telling Alonso he didn't want him didn't help to much.

I think he will hand in his notice after next Sunday's final round of matches, he is no loss to the EPL and maybe Liverpool might become a force to be reckoned with if the right man gets the job, i think the job suits Jose Mourhino down to the ground and i think he will be in the hotseat come August.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

pokerface_me wrote: »

I think the guy has run out of ideas and has lost the dressing room. The premiership was just a step to far for him, i firmly believe that he had the squad in 2007/2008 to do it. To much mucking about with the team and telling Alonso he didn't want him didn't help to much.

I think he will hand in his notice after next Sunday's final round of matches, he is no loss to the EPL and maybe Liverpool might become a force to be reckoned with if the right man gets the job, i think the job suits Jose Mourhino down to the ground and i think he will be in the hotseat come August.

He will be missed at Anfield regardless.

pokerface_me

All others No Rafa should stay

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

He will be missed at Anfield regardless.

I'm sure he will and so he should be, he wrote his own bit of history there and earned the right to be remembered.

Do you feel he was a bit out of touch this season? Passion didn't seem to be there, looked permently grumpy and had the look of a man that didn't want to be there?

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

pokerface_me wrote: »

I think the guy has run out of ideas and has lost the dressing room. The premiership was just a step to far for him, i firmly believe that he had the squad in 2007/2008 to do it. To much mucking about with the team and telling Alonso he didn't want him didn't help to much.

I think he will hand in his notice after next Sunday's final round of matches, he is no loss to the EPL and maybe Liverpool might become a force to be reckoned with if the right man gets the job, i think the job suits Jose Mourhino down to the ground and i think he will be in the hotseat come August.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

I think Rafa hasn't been happy this season but you could say that about Torres and Gerrard as well in away. Not a happy place at the moment.
I think other posters need to remember where we where when Rafa took over. We were thirty points off Arsenal and not really doing well in Europe.
Rafa turned things around considerably and will never be forgotten for some truly memorable games.
Our wins over Chelsea and Arsenal in CL stand out for me particularly while his battles with Jose were always good in the league.
The fact that he is on IK collectors item tshirt with Shanks, Paisley, Fagan and King Kenny gives you an idea how fans feel about him over him.
Again he will be missed and never forgotten when he eventually one. Will always be our special one.

Handsome Bob

All others Yes Rafa should go

If Jose is Liverpool manager come August I'll eat my ****ing hat. There's no chance of it happening. Maybe if we got new owners swiftly, but I can see G&H still being there come the start of next season.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

At the moment, there is no chance of Mourinho coming here.

But if we get investment in the next couple of months then I think we'd be one of 3 places he'd love to manage - Real and United being the other two.

Although he didn't always show it, i think he has respect for the Liverpool fans (applauding the Kop after the semi final)
I think he'd love another chance to get one over on Fergie, basically being sacked by Chelea robbed him of that chance.
I think he'd love to get one over on Rafa in a way too, after their quite public spats in the past.
It's fairly obvious he wants to manage in England again.

Corben Dallas

All others No Rafa should stay

No chance Jose will EVER be in charge in Pool. Not even a man of Jose's talents could turn Liverpool around short term, plus he'd get no money, plus the club is in 'flux' with it being up for sale, plus they badly need to get a new stadium.

Man City are set (allegedly set to) offer Jose a Big money move to Manchester +with the transfer kitty to match. Can see him there next year.

---

Rafa should go, he's been trading on Istanbul for way too long. Rafa is a true continental type manager that has never really adapted to the English game. Anyone who gets rid off/allows to leave players like Keane, Alonso and Crouch shows a serious lack of judgement re player quality.

If Roy Hodgson is available they should bite his hand off, might get a good deal off Fulham, was a good manager/liked at Blackburn, is highly rated and potentially take Pool forward.

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

no offence corben but if you can't understand why crouch and keane were sold, you probably aren't fully aware of the financial tight rope he's been walking the last number of years. also makes me laugh when people use crouch as a criticism-rafa was laughed at when he bought crouch for the money he did and kept playing him despite not scoring for ages-we then get arguably the best striker in the world and crouch refuses to sign a new deal cause he wants first team ball. and all of a sudden he was mishandled.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mr Alan wrote: »

no offence corben but if you can't understand why crouch and keane were sold, you probably aren't fully aware of the financial tight rope he's been walking the last number of years. also makes me laugh when people use crouch as a criticism-rafa was laughed at when he bought crouch for the money he did and kept playing him despite not scoring for ages-we then get arguably the best striker in the world and crouch refuses to sign a new deal cause he wants first team ball. and all of a sudden he was mishandled.

Crouch wanted away for first team football and Alonso was always going to Real when they came knocking, it was just about as much money as we could get for him. I'd have loved to keep Bellamy as well, but when you get Torres instead, happy enough! You can't have everything!

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

K-9 wrote: »

Crouch wanted away for first team football and Alonso was always going to Real when they came knocking, it was just about as much money as we could get for him. I'd have loved to keep Bellamy as well, but when you get Torres instead, happy enough! You can't have everything!

Alonso would have been sold to Arsenal if Wenger wasn't so tight!

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

allegedly i have serious question marks over that, and it is only tabloid **** that's based on.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

allegedly i have serious question marks over that, and it is only tabloid **** that's based on.

I think it's true to be honest, he didn't have the greatest of seasons and didn't seem happy at the club. £2m is something Wenger would be stubborn about too!

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

if that's really the case LOL at Arsene to be honest!

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

Mr Alan wrote: »

if that's really the case LOL at Arsene to be honest!

Indeed, although I do remember thinking that the figure Wenger wanted to pay at the time was more than fair and that Liverpool were trting to milk it.

Corben Dallas

All others No Rafa should stay

Keane was sold cause Rafa didn’t want the player, deal was done over his head, at boardroom. So Rafa never really gave him a chance/sold him first chance he got.

Crouch is also a quality player, England regular, and Raga’s bad judgement let the player go. Financially selling Crouch might have made sense but not from the overall strength of the team POV. Point is that Liverpool now have one top quality striker and two other very average forwards to choose from > N'gog and Babel

Mr Alan

All others Yes Rafa should go

so you would have dropped Torres?

I'd be happy to see Benitez go only if we get a suitable replacement, ie a top proven manager of a successfull club - Mourinhio or Hiddink.

This is obviously not going to happen so I'd stick wth Rafa until christmas and if things haven't improved he has to go then.

SlickRic

Corben Dallas wrote: »

Financially selling Crouch might have made sense but not from the overall strength of the team POV.

the fact we got Nando negates this entire argument i'm afraid. Crouch's ego got in the way.

it's the same with the Bellamy card that gets thrown at him. i'm sure he'd love to have kept Bellamy. but getting Torres was a priority, and Bellers needed to be sold to get the money to get him.

it's unfortunate, but that's the constraint he has been under.

leninbenjamin

All others No Rafa should stay

jasonorr wrote: »

I think it's true to be honest, he didn't have the greatest of seasons and didn't seem happy at the club. £2m is something Wenger would be stubborn about too!

I'm pretty sure it was more than £2m... I seem to remember reading Liverpool wanting something in the region of £18-20m and us pulling out at £14m.

L'prof

All others No Rafa should stay

leninbenjamin wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it was more than m... I seem to remember reading Liverpool wanting something in the region of -20m and us pulling out at m.

I can't remember, all I know is that it was a trivial sum!

Lukker-

All others No Rafa should stay

Scolari's available.

kippy

No doubt, finances have had their part to play in Liverpools demise but there still seem to be a few Liverpool fans who cant attach any blame to Rafa for the situation they find themselves in.

He won a CL with a team (a far worse team on paper allegedly than what he has now) that were pretty much no his. His building a team has gone very very wrong and while people can speculate over why he bought/sold Crouch/Keane/Alonso, you can only assume that these three transfers were done with the managers permission and consent. While the players may have not wanted to stay there, no one bar them and the management team actually know whether this is true or not.
Ultimately, I blame this season on the transfer in of Aqualani and the complete disentigration of Rafa towards the end of last season when he came out with that media rant. Thats it for me.
He is, no doubt a decent manager, but the history books could show that despite his Champions League win, he is possibly leaving the club in a far worse state than he came into.

JimsAlterEgo

kippy wrote: »

No doubt, finances have had their part to play in Liverpools demise but there still seem to be a few Liverpool fans who cant attach any blame to Rafa for the situation they find themselves in.

He won a CL with a team (a far worse team on paper allegedly than what he has now) that were pretty much no his. His building a team has gone very very wrong and while people can speculate over why he bought/sold Crouch/Keane/Alonso, you can only assume that these three transfers were done with the managers permission and consent. While the players may have not wanted to stay there, no one bar them and the management team actually know whether this is true or not.
Ultimately, I blame this season on the transfer in of Aqualani and the complete disentigration of Rafa towards the end of last season when he came out with that media rant. Thats it for me.
He is, no doubt a decent manager, but the history books could show that despite his Champions League win, he is possibly leaving the club in a far worse state than he came into.

and to empasise this his own claims that he needs 5 more players shows how poor the squad he built is.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

He's spent €230 million quid since he came in. Fair enough, he had to put his own stamp on the team he inherited from Houllier, but, he's bought(mostly)utter ***** since he arrived.

And winning the CL in his first full season was probably the worst thing that could happen to him. It was great for the fans, but he thought he could win everything playing that way. And his "style" of football is suited to the European game - he is obsessed with playing in Europe, and not mounting a decent challenge for the Premiership.

**** knows who'll replace him though?? They'll have a tough job rebuilding the squad that he put together. A colleague of mine at work, who's a season ticket holder, is adamant that Benitez will stay!!??

EDIT: I voted yes by the way!

2nd EDIT: And as a previous poster said, the "rant" ended it for me too!! Showed that he hasn't got what it takes to win the Premiership.

SlickRic

i give up at this stage.

you're completely entitled to think Rafa should go Mickey, i'm undecided until the ownership situation sorts itself out, but two things i can't not correct you on, are;

1. that 'he's bought mostly utter *****'. not true, end of story.

2. he's obsessed with Europe and not mounting a serious title challenge. horse bollix. what was last year?

and the fact you have no idea who'll replace him shows another problem that you really should consider. Rafa is a good manager, you cannot deny that. with the club in the state it's in, if we were to push Rafa, i want to be pretty damn sure who we're getting in is of high quality.

because we're going to end up looking stupid if the replacement bombs.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

SlickRic wrote: »

i give up at this stage.

you're completely entitled to think Rafa should go Mickey, i'm undecided until the ownership situation sorts itself out, but two things i can't not correct you on, are;

1. that 'he's bought mostly utter *****'. not true, end of story.

2. he's obsessed with Europe and not mounting a serious title challenge. horse bollix. what was last year?

and the fact you have no idea who'll replace him shows another problem that you really should consider. Rafa is a good manager, you cannot deny that. with the club in the state it's in, if we were to push Rafa, i want to be pretty damn sure who we're getting in is of high quality.

because we're going to end up looking stupid if the replacement bombs.

I dont know who'll replace him, simply because the names that have all been linked to the club are all employed at present. Would they want to leave their respective clubs to come to a madhouse? Doubt it?

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I dont know who'll replace him, simply because the names that have all been linked to the club are all employed at present. Would they want to leave their respective clubs to come to a madhouse? Doubt it?

Liverpool still a big club. How many times in his career is a manager going to be offered the job.
Any manager worth his salt would think twice before turning it down.

JPA

All others No Rafa should stay

At this stage isn't the most relevant factor that Benitez himself might want to leave? Especially if he has a good offer on the table from Juventus.

Ush1

SlickRic wrote: »

i give up at this stage.

you're completely entitled to think Rafa should go Mickey, i'm undecided until the ownership situation sorts itself out, but two things i can't not correct you on, are;

1. that 'he's bought mostly utter *****'. not true, end of story.

2. he's obsessed with Europe and not mounting a serious title challenge. horse bollix. what was last year?

and the fact you have no idea who'll replace him shows another problem that you really should consider. Rafa is a good manager, you cannot deny that. with the club in the state it's in, if we were to push Rafa, i want to be pretty damn sure who we're getting in is of high quality.

because we're going to end up looking stupid if the replacement bombs.

In fairness, if Rafa has another bad season they will end up looking stupid and people will all say why wasn't he sacked at the end of last year. Catch 22.

JimsAlterEgo

can any liverpool fans hand on heart say this squad is better than what he inherited?

SlickRic

Ush1 wrote: »

In fairness, if Rafa has another bad season they will end up looking stupid and people will all say why wasn't he sacked at the end of last year. Catch 22.

absolutely true.

though i personally don't think we'll look as stupid having a season (or part of a season) extra faith in a manager whose been great for us.

if that fails, and it continues deteriorating, i'd be far more forgiving than i would if we just fired him, hired someone and they failed.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

JPA wrote: »

At this stage isn't the most relevant factor that Benitez himself might want to leave? Especially if he has a good offer on the table from Juventus.

This a quote from link posted on other thread. It will boil down to this meeting in the end. Broughton can either convince Rafa to stay or not. If he is not wanted at Anfield by the board I think that will be it.

Benítez is due to convene with Broughton for the first time this week in a meeting that is sure to involve a full and frank exchange of views. Liverpool officials remain unimpressed with Benítez’s flirtation with a rival club, while the Spaniard is unhappy that he has not been given any pledges after requesting clarity about his position and Liverpool’s transfer policy.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

can any liverpool fans hand on heart say this squad is better than what he inherited?

Yes. But it has stagnated somewhat.

SlickRic

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

can any liverpool fans hand on heart say this squad is better than what he inherited?

yes, and anyone saying different just hates Rafa to be honest.

kippy

SlickRic wrote: »

yes, and anyone saying different just hates Rafa to be honest.

Ah yeah,
In fairness, on paper and in general there is a better squad there than what he came into, that said, its not been a cheap outlay to get the squad to that level and with him saying he needs FIVE more players next season just to compete for fourth place, one has to wonder and question the purchase of some of that squad.........
Barring last seasons blip, the more of his own mark Rafa has put on the squad, the worse they've gotten. From a CL winning one, to a nothing team in five seasons, who may possibly struggle for the next few seasons. Rafa HAS to have some portion of the blame for that.
I suppose its all relative. It might be a better squad, but almost all those around them have better squads than they had five years ago as well.

JimsAlterEgo

To Clarify - this is Current Squad vs Squad when Rafa took over

IMO - best starting 11 of the 2 teams has 7 players he inherited and best including 7 subs has 11

Before this is Rubbished its my Opinion, there are a few close calls but I think it illustrates that the squad is not actually any better.


Reina

*Finnan - Subjective
*Riise
*Carragher (of then not now)
*Hyppia

Kuyt
*Gerrard
Mascherano
*Hamann
*Kewell

Torres

Subs
*Kirkland
*Baros
Johnson
*Henchoz
*Murphy
Agger
Benayoun

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

The reason for wanting 5 new signings is simple and it isn't necessarily all Rafas fault. Ideally we need a CB to replace Carra or Kyriakos, we absolutely need a LB, a Left and Right Winger and a back up striker.

The CB is just due to age as are the Wingers as Kuyt and Benny are all about 30. That happens every team. Ideally he'd have had the funds to do that last year but he has had a negative net spends which makes that kind of difficult.

LB is Rafas fault, Insua is too young and Aurelio is a sick note, then again, he was bought cheap. Striker is his fault, then again, he never got the Keane money last Summer to get a good back up.

joe123

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

IMO - best starting 11 of the 2 teams has 7 players he inherited and best including 7 subs has 11

Before this is Rubbished its my Opinion, there are a few close calls but I think it illustrates that the squad is not actually any better.


Reina

*Finnan - Subjective
*Riise
*Carragher (of then not now)
*Hyppia

Kuyt
*Gerrard
Mascherano
*Hamann
*Kewell

Torres

Subs
*Kirkland
*Baros
Johnson
*Henchoz
*Murphy
Agger
Benayoun

Ok leaving out Alonso altogether is just criminal. Hed be straight in on the starting 11. Harry Kewell was terrible as was Baros. No Crouch? No Bellamy?

But seriously why no Xabi Alonso!??

kippy

The more I think about it, the more irrelevent I think this point about the squad is.
. Whether the squad is better than it was after his reign doesnt really matter if all those around him have improved in a better manner. I think it's fair to say that they have.
I do think the squad he has now is better than that which he inherited but they are seriously underperforming. The owners cant be blamed for that in my opinion and the players themselves as well as Rafa have to take the blame for it.
Were it not for Reina and the Greek guy (who is by no means a brilliant defender but for the money has performed above expectations) it could have been a worse season, if that is possible.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

joe123 wrote: »

Ok leaving out Alonso altogether is just criminal. Hed be straight in on the starting 11. Harry Kewell was terrible as was Baros. No Crouch? No Bellamy?

But seriously why no Xabi Alonso!??

I was wondering about the Xabi ommission too!!?? He would walk onto any of the teams in the Premiership - including Man U & Chelski.


EDIT: Isn't this thread supposed to be about whether or not Rafa should leave/stay? Is it going to descend into an argument about best/worst players?