Is it time for Rafa to go?

JimsAlterEgo

joe123 wrote: »

Ok leaving out Alonso altogether is just criminal. Hed be straight in on the starting 11. Harry Kewell was terrible as was Baros. No Crouch? No Bellamy?

But seriously why no Xabi Alonso!??

the clue is in Current vs Inherited - unless he re-signed in the last few minutes I think you will find hes a Ream Madrid player - same goes for Crocuh and Bellamy.
Kewell was a decent player for you when fit. Who is a better left winger in the current squad? Baros was badly used but IMO he's head and shoulders over N'Gog.

Prufrock

Its hard to argue the point that a man who finishes 7th with a team that had title aspirations, gets knocked out of the CL before the last 16, the Europa League(at Anfield) and the FA Cup to Reading should keep his job.

Also saying he needs 5 new players to challenge for 4th place. Madness.

Some aspects of the job he has done at Liverpool have been good. CL winners, CL runners up, FA Cup, a super cup and a charity shield. Torres, Reina, Alonso and Masch signings.

But then theres Keane, Morientes(12 goals 61 appearances a deal which cost Liverpool £3 million after they bought him for around £6 mill), Alonso going to Real, Babel at £11.5 mill, Pennant, missing out on 4th this season.

Its a mixed bag with Rafa. But if he leaves would some of Liverpools better players follow suit? Will they go anyway without CL football? Also theres the expense associated with sacking him. I wouldn't like to be making the decision.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

JimsAlterEgo wrote: »

the clue is in Current vs Inherited - unless he re-signed in the last few minutes I think you will find hes a Ream Madrid player - same goes for Crocuh and Bellamy.
Kewell was a decent player for you when fit. Who is a better left winger in the current squad? Baros was badly used but IMO he's head and shoulders over N'Gog.

It's ridiculous to just ignore Alonso, Bellamy, Crouch and others who have come and gone, both good and bad. Part of the reason Pool are so poor this year is getting over the loss of Alonso. All teams go through troughs and peaks and trying to find the right balance.

Gang of Gin

BastardPrince wrote: »

gone backwards in one season, yes but since when is one data point enough to prove an hypothesis?

do you honestly think we can get a manager who could win the league at the moment? and if so who?

if rafa is so bad why cant people think of realistic alternatives (who have actually won proper leagues and trophies)

That's usually a question many can't give an answer to so immediately, to be honest. We may not know who to get just now, but would it be fair to say that Rafa's presence alone is devisive, thus putting the club under more pressure than is due?

A clean slate(whoever it may be) might give the players a new perspective for the new season. Because if this Rafa debacle rumbles onto the next season I can see more unrest.

And I would be one not to lambast his managerial skills outright - but I think it's a headache many would see happy to walk out the door. We're probably not fully aware of what's happening in the dressing room anyway. For all we know, and what looks apparent on the field, everyone's lost confidence in him. It's a difficult thing to repair.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

Transfer Dealings from Rafael Benitez’s Transfer Dealings In Focus « Studs Up:

Season 2004/05
BOUGHT
Good buys:
£10.7m – Xabi Alonso: Possibly the best deep-lying playmaker in the world.
£6m – Luis Garcia: Scored some wonderful goals and provided the unexpected at a reasonable price.
£0.75m – Scott Carson: A good young reserve goalkeeper.
Bad buys:
£2m – Josemi: No pace, no skill, fouled a lot. A very poor signing.
£1.5m – Antonio Nunez: The reasons for including him in the Owen deal remain unclear. He was clearly not good enough to play for Liverpool.
Free – Pelligrino: Never adjusted, total misjudgement. A poor signing even for free.
£6.3m – Fernando Morientes: Never settled, poor signing ultimately, but nobody could have predicted that.
Total bought: £27.25m

SOLD
Free – Marcus Babbel
£2.5m – Danny Murphy: For a lowly £2.5m, Benitez should have tried to keep him in my opinion.
£8.5m – Michael Owen
Free – Stephane Henchoz

Total sold: £11m



2004/05 net spend: £16.25m
Losing a world-class striker at the age of 25 for £11m had a catastrophic effect on the squad. Benitez made the decision that balancing the midfield was a priority, but this left Liverpool without a single top-class striker in their ranks.
Although Alonso and Garcia were great signings who played a key role in the European Cup success, other players Benitez brought in contributed equally to our dismal domestic season.



BOUGHT
Good buys:
Free – Boudewijn Zenden
£6m – Pepe Reina: Terrific signing. World class keeper bought with at least a decade of football in him, all for a very reasonable price.
£5.6m – Momo Sissoko: Eventually lost out to injuries and competition from Mascherano, but was worth the fee paid.
£7m – Peter Crouch: To the surprise of many (including me), Peter Crouch’s time at Liverpool was a success.
£5.8m – Daniel Agger: Injuries have prevented him from being a fantastic signing. Still decent value.
Free – Robbie Fowler: “Pay as you play” – no risk. A disappointment but worth a go.
Bad buys:
£4.5m – Mark Gonzalez: Had pace and came with a reputation for scoring goals from the wing, but never settled into the UK’s style of football.
Exchange – Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Another budget attempt to provide competition at right-back was unsuccessful.
Total bought: £28.9m
SOLD
Free – Vladimir Smicer
£3.5m – El Hadji Diouf
Free – Pellegrino
£2m – Alou Diarra
£2m – Antonio Nunez
£6.5m – Milan Baros
Exchange – Josemi

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £14.9m
Benitez’s dealings were mainly effective and he seemed to be quick to recognise his own mistakes in Josemi and Nunez. Good work overall.






Season 2006/07

BOUGHT Good buys:
£6m – Craig Bellamy: Value for money and sold at a profit (£7.5m).
£9m – Dirk Kuyt: Great signing.
£2.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Great signing, sold to Real for profit (£3.5m). Shouldn’t have been allowed to leave ideally.
Loan – Javier Mascherano: Great loan signing which put us in pole position to secure his transfer.
Bad buys:
£2m – Gabriel Palletta: Waste of time and should never have been given a game. Poor signing.
Free – Fabio Aurelio: Injuries have prevented him from being a great free transfer, but Rafa did know all about his injury problems before he came.
£6.7m – Jermaine Pennant: Bad choice, and badly man-managed. The collapse of the deals for Simao and Alves were not Benitez’s fault, but his solution to the problem failed miserably.
Total bought: £26.2m
SOLD
£1.5m – Bruno Cheyrou.
£3m – Fernando Morientes
Free – Didi Hamann
£2m – Djimi Traore
£500,000 – Neil Mellor
£1.75m – Jan Kromkamp
£1.5m – Steven Warnock: A very poor bit of business.
Free – Salif Diao

Total sold: £8.75m

2006/07 net spend: £17.45m
A very mixed bag of transfer deals off the field saw the team’s league challenge on the pitch slide backwards.



Season 2007/08

BOUGHT
Good buys:
£6m – Lucas Leiva: Made sense to acquire a young winner of Brazil’s Golden Ball, but he’s been average value for money so far.
£20.2m – Fernando Torres: One of the world’s best strikers for a quarter of the price Real Madrid paid for Cristiano Ronaldo.
£5m – Yossi Benayoun: Excellent value for money.
£1.3m – Emiliano Insua: A good early signing, will hopefully settle into a world class full-back but still very much a work in progress.
£6.5m – Martin Skrtel: Value for money (although an alarming dip in form threatens that).
£18.6m – Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal
Bad buys:
£1.8m – Sebastian Leto: Never looked good enough for Liverpool.
Free – Andriy Voronin: Worth a punt for free, but things haven’t worked out for him.
£11.5m – Ryan Babel: Possibly the most talented yet inconsistent player I’ve ever seen play for Liverpool. Expensive, badly utilised, under performing. Not good at all.
Undisclosed – Charles Itandje: Not good enough for Liverpool. Now released.
Total bought: £71,425,000
SOLD
£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle
Free – Jerzy Dudek
Free – Zenden
Free – Robbie Fowler
£4m – Luis Garcia
£6m – Djibril Cisse
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy
£3.5m – Mark Gonzalez
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko
Total sold: £36.5m
2007/08 net spend: £34,925,000
Benitez was given more money to spend than he’d had at his disposal before. And for the most part he used it pretty well. Torres and Mascherano are world class. But having spent that money, Benitez came under pressure for the first time when the league title seemed no nearer.









Season 2008/09
BOUGHT
Good buys:
£8m – Albert Riera: Good value and adds balance on the left flank, but poor man-management seems to be causing an issue.
£1.5m – David N’gog
Bad buys:
Free – Philip Degen: Came with a reputation for being injury prone and has been constantly injured. In conjunction with the subsequent sale of Finnan, a very poor bit of business.
£7m – Andrea Dossena: Dreadful.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: If the transfer fee is correct then it is poor business.
£19m – Robbie Keane: A total fiasco.
Total bought: £39m
SOLD
£4m – John Arne Riise
Free – Harry Kewell
£11m – Peter Crouch: Should not have been allowed to leave.
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie
£3.25m – Scott Carson: Benitez dithered on the deal and lost money as a result.
£1m – Steve Finnan: Should have been kept on.
£16m – Robbie Keane
£1.5m – Jack Hobbs
Total sold: £36.5m
2008/09 net spend: £2.5m
Although Benitez cannot be expected to revitalise a squad for £2.5m, the 08/09 season saw some dreadful business. The decision to sell Crouch and replace him with Keane was a catastrophic blunder. Benitez was all for replacing Alonso with Barry also, sowing the seeds for his eventual departure, awful. Although Liverpool actually mounted their strongest title challenge in over a decade, the squad’s quality overall took a big step back.







Season 2009/10
BOUGHT
£17.5m – Glen Johnson
£17.1m – Alberto Aquilani
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Total bought: £36.6m
SOLD
£250,000 – Paul Anderson
Free – Jermaine Pennant
£3m – Sebastian Leto
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Although we made a good profit on him, Liverpool are supposed to keep their best players.
Total sold: £36.75m
2009/10 net spend: £-150,000
No money for Rafa again, and the cracks that began to appear last season become visible. It’s too early to judge the signings made most recently, but so far this season the squad seems roughly similar in quality to the one Benitez inherited.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

K-9 wrote: »

Transfer Dealings from Rafael Benitez’s Transfer Dealings In Focus « Studs Up:

Season 2004/05
BOUGHT
Good buys:
£10.7m – Xabi Alonso: Possibly the best deep-lying playmaker in the world.
£6m – Luis Garcia: Scored some wonderful goals and provided the unexpected at a reasonable price.
£0.75m – Scott Carson: A good young reserve goalkeeper.
Bad buys:
£2m – Josemi: No pace, no skill, fouled a lot. A very poor signing.
£1.5m – Antonio Nunez: The reasons for including him in the Owen deal remain unclear. He was clearly not good enough to play for Liverpool.
Free – Pelligrino: Never adjusted, total misjudgement. A poor signing even for free.
£6.3m – Fernando Morientes: Never settled, poor signing ultimately, but nobody could have predicted that.
Total bought: £27.25m

SOLD
Free – Marcus Babbel
£2.5m – Danny Murphy: wasn't good for two seasons he had to go but a decent player non the less but we got Alonso to replace him so I know who I rather have
£8.5m – Michael Owen
Free – Stephane Henchoz

Total sold: £11m



2004/05 net spend: £16.25m
Losing a world-class striker at the age of 25 for £11m had a catastrophic effect on the squad. Benitez made the decision that balancing the midfield was a priority, but this left Liverpool without a single top-class striker in their ranks.
Although Alonso and Garcia were great signings who played a key role in the European Cup success, other players Benitez brought in contributed equally to our dismal domestic season.



BOUGHT
Good buys:
Free – Boudewijn Zenden
£6m – Pepe Reina: Terrific signing. World class keeper bought with at least a decade of football in him, all for a very reasonable price.
£5.6m – Momo Sissoko: Eventually lost out to injuries and competition from Mascherano, but was worth the fee paid.
£7m – Peter Crouch: To the surprise of many (including me), Peter Crouch’s time at Liverpool was a success.
£5.8m – Daniel Agger: Injuries have prevented him from being a fantastic signing. Still decent value.
Free – Robbie Fowler: “Pay as you play” – no risk. A disappointment but worth a go.
Bad buys:
£4.5m – Mark Gonzalez: Had pace and came with a reputation for scoring goals from the wing, but never settled into the UK’s style of football.
Exchange – Jan Kromkamp: Swapped for Josemi. Another budget attempt to provide competition at right-back was unsuccessful.
Total bought: £28.9m
SOLD
Free – Vladimir Smicer
£3.5m – El Hadji Diouf
Free – Pellegrino
£2m – Alou Diarra
£2m – Antonio Nunez
£6.5m – Milan Baros
Exchange – Josemi

Total sold: £14m

2005/06 net spend: £14.9m
Benitez’s dealings were mainly effective and he seemed to be quick to recognise his own mistakes in Josemi and Nunez. Good work overall.






Season 2006/07

BOUGHT Good buys:
£6m – Craig Bellamy: Value for money and sold at a profit (£7.5m).
£9m – Dirk Kuyt: Great signing.
£2.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa: Great signing, sold to Real for profit (£3.5m). Shouldn’t have been allowed to leave ideally, one year left on contract what could Rafa do when he didn't sign the new contract.
Loan – Javier Mascherano: Great loan signing which put us in pole position to secure his transfer.
Bad buys:
£2m – Gabriel Palletta: Waste of time and should never have been given a game. Poor signing.
Free – Fabio Aurelio: Injuries have prevented him from being a great free transfer, but Rafa did know all about his injury problems before he came.
£6.7m – Jermaine Pennant: Bad choice, and badly man-managed. The collapse of the deals for Simao and Alves were not Benitez’s fault, but his solution to the problem failed miserably.
Total bought: £26.2m
SOLD
£1.5m – Bruno Cheyrou.
£3m – Fernando Morientes
Free – Didi Hamann
£2m – Djimi Traore
£500,000 – Neil Mellor
£1.75m – Jan Kromkamp
£1.5m – Steven Warnock: Wasn't a good player at the time and didn't provide enough competition for Riise and he was 25 at the time and still hadn't forced his way into the Liverpool first team. Good piece of business for Warnock in the end
Free – Salif Diao

Total sold: £8.75m

2006/07 net spend: £17.45m
A very mixed bag of transfer deals off the field saw the team’s league challenge on the pitch slide backwards.



Season 2007/08

BOUGHT
Good buys:
£6m – Lucas Leiva: Made sense to acquire a young winner of Brazil’s Golden Ball, but he’s been average value for money so far.
£20.2m – Fernando Torres: One of the world’s best strikers for a quarter of the price Real Madrid paid for Cristiano Ronaldo.
£5m – Yossi Benayoun: Excellent value for money.
£1.3m – Emiliano Insua: A good early signing, will hopefully settle into a world class full-back but still very much a work in progress.
£6.5m – Martin Skrtel: Value for money (although an alarming dip in form threatens that).
£18.6m – Javier Mascherano: Completion of loan deal
Bad buys:
£1.8m – Sebastian Leto: Never looked good enough for Liverpool.
Free – Andriy Voronin: Worth a punt for free, but things haven’t worked out for him.
£11.5m – Ryan Babel: Possibly the most talented yet inconsistent player I’ve ever seen play for Liverpool. Expensive, badly utilised, under performing. Not good at all.
Undisclosed – Charles Itandje: Not good enough for Liverpool. Now released.
Total bought: £71,425,000
SOLD
£2.7m – Florent Simana-Pongolle
Free – Jerzy Dudek
Free – Zenden
Free – Robbie Fowler
£4m – Luis Garcia
£6m – Djibril Cisse
£7.5m – Craig Bellamy
£3.5m – Mark Gonzalez
£1.2m – Gabriel Palletta
£3.5m – Chris Kirkland
£8.2m – Momo Sissoko
Total sold: £36.5m
2007/08 net spend: £34,925,000
Benitez was given more money to spend than he’d had at his disposal before. And for the most part he used it pretty well. Torres and Mascherano are world class. But having spent that money, Benitez came under pressure for the first time when the league title seemed no nearer.









Season 2008/09
BOUGHT
Good buys:
£8m – Albert Riera: Good value and adds balance on the left flank, but poor man-management seems to be causing an issue.
£1.5m – David N’gog
Bad buys:
Free – Philip Degen: Came with a reputation for being injury prone and has been constantly injured. In conjunction with the subsequent sale of Finnan, a very poor bit of business.
£7m – Andrea Dossena: Dreadful.
£3.5m – Diego Cavalieri: If the transfer fee is correct then it is poor business.
£19m – Robbie Keane: A total fiasco.
Total bought: £39m
SOLD
£4m – John Arne Riise
Free – Harry Kewell
£11m – Peter Crouch: Wouldn't sign a new contract and wanted first team football which we couldn't guarantee due to Torres
£2.25m – Danny Guthrie
£3.25m – Scott Carson: We made a profit of 105 % on him, not good no?
£1m – Steve Finnan: Great servant and should have being kept for another year but look at him now, didn't do well at Espanyol and came back to play for Pompey
£16m – Robbie Keane
£1.5m – Jack Hobbs
Total sold: £36.5m
2008/09 net spend: £2.5m
Although Benitez cannot be expected to revitalise a squad for £2.5m, the 08/09 season saw some dreadful business. The decision to sell Crouch and replace him with Keane was a catastrophic blunder. Benitez was all for replacing Alonso with Barry also, sowing the seeds for his eventual departure, awful. Although Liverpool actually mounted their strongest title challenge in over a decade, the squad’s quality overall took a big step back.







Season 2009/10
BOUGHT
£17.5m – Glen Johnson
£17.1m – Alberto Aquilani
£2m – Sotirios Kyrgiakos
Total bought: £36.6m
SOLD
£250,000 – Paul Anderson
Free – Jermaine Pennant
£3m – Sebastian Leto
£3.5m – Alvaro Arbeloa
£30m – Xabi Alonso: Although we made a good profit on him, Liverpool are supposed to keep their best players. - yes but you can't force anyone to stay can you
Total sold: £36.75m
2009/10 net spend: £-150,000
No money for Rafa again, and the cracks that began to appear last season become visible. It’s too early to judge the signings made most recently, but so far this season the squad seems roughly similar in quality to the one Benitez inherited.

So he has spent only over 20 million once net spend in 6 years and the last two seasons should give a clue to some of our supporters the real problem here. How can a manager perform miracles with that kind of budget tell me...

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Prufrock wrote: »

Its hard to argue the point that a man who finishes 7th with a team that had title aspirations, gets knocked out of the CL before the last 16, the Europa League(at Anfield) and the FA Cup to Reading should keep his job.

Also saying he needs 5 new players to challenge for 4th place. Madness.

Some aspects of the job he has done at Liverpool have been good. CL winners, CL runners up, FA Cup, a super cup and a charity shield. Torres, Reina, Alonso and Masch signings.

But then theres Keane, Morientes(12 goals 61 appearances a deal which cost Liverpool £3 million after they bought him for around £6 mill), Alonso going to Real, Babel at £11.5 mill, Pennant, missing out on 4th this season.

Its a mixed bag with Rafa. But if he leaves would some of Liverpools better players follow suit? Will they go anyway without CL football? Also theres the expense associated with sacking him. I wouldn't like to be making the decision.

But the decision has to be made, sooner rather than later. Otherwise we'll be talking about the same stuff again next year.

The Muppet

All others No Rafa should stay

K-9 wrote: »

Transfer Dealings from Rafael Benitez’s Transfer Dealings In Focus « Studs Up:

......................................
I]

It's amazing how poor the squad is with all these excellent signings.

JimsAlterEgo

K-9 wrote: »

It's ridiculous to just ignore Alonso, Bellamy, Crouch and others who have come and gone, both good and bad. Part of the reason Pool are so poor this year is getting over the loss of Alonso. All teams go through troughs and peaks and trying to find the right balance.

No its not - the point was the quaility of the current squad vs what he inherited - not what happened in the interim

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

Think that piece is a bit overly critical of Rafa, particularly over Crouch and Alonso, more to it that simply saying they should never have been let go.

Overall, last season appears to have been our peak from the squad he built. Its a squad that is starting to age and a negative net spend over the last 2 seasons hasn't helped Rafa there. Neither did the Keane saga or Aquilani so far, who the jury is still out on.

Obviously the fantastic signings where Torres, Mascherano (expensive but time has proven it wasn't, big risk at the time!), Alonso (Real came knocking, £20 Million profit), and Pepe.

Good signings I'd say Garcia (for the money), Sissoko (for the money, unlucky), Zenden (for a free), Bellamy (cheap enough, sold at a profit and partly financed Torres), Kuyt (despite his failings, I'd still call him a good signing), Crouch (actually great signing considering the stick he got, wanted first team football), Arbeloa (Bargain) and Yossi (Bargain).

Decent signings would be Agger, Skyrtel, Aurelio (injury prone but free), Lucas and Insua (both young and developing) and Kyriakos (Bargain for what he brought to the back 4 after Xmas). N'Gog too for the price and age, not his fault he is thrown in at the deep end.

Unlucky signing would have to be Morientes.

Disastrous signings, Keane and Pennant obviously, I'd say Gonzales, Riera and Dossena considering they where hefty enough sums.

Johnson and Acquilani are only here a season and loads of injuries, so too early to tell. Babel has been a disaster and Rafa has a part in that.

Wouldn't agree on the sales of Murphy and Finnan. Don't think they weakened the squad though of course with hindsight, they probably could have done a job for us. Warnock was a disaster Sale.

kippy

5ForKeeps wrote: »

So he has spent only over 20 million once net spend in 6 years and the last two seasons should give a clue to some of our supporters the real problem here. How can a manager perform miracles with that kind of budget tell me...

Lets be honest here,
There are other managers out there with far less resources who do the job with what they've got.
At the end of the day, HE is the one buying the players. If they dont work out for him, despite their cost ultimately HE has to be responsible for them. He was after more control at the club. He got it and also got rid of Parry who allegedly screwed them over in the transfer side of things. They've gone downhill since.
As I said, getting rid of Alonso, no matter how it happened and his subsequent replacement by a not inexpensive highly injury prone midfielder was one set of transfer dealings that he didnt get right. The tone was set at the start of the season and the rot set in from there.

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

So a net investment of ~80m in the squad over the past six years, and a current spend on wages that ranks fifth highest in the Premiership.

Those who maintain a change of manager equals a solve to our problems are not thinking this thing through.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So a net investment of ~80m in the squad over the past six years, and a current spend on wages that ranks fifth highest in the Premiership.

Those who maintain a change of manager equals a solve a solution to our problems are not thinking this thing through.

Maybe not LL but if board can't deliver on what Rafa wants maybe he should just walk. They dug a big hole for themselves by giving him that big a contract but sometimes you have to cut your losses.
End of the day I think both should do what is best for the club.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

5ForKeeps wrote: »

So he has spent only over 20 million once net spend in 6 years and the last two seasons should give a clue to some of our supporters the real problem here. How can a manager perform miracles with that kind of budget tell me...

Indeed, I agree with your points, just posted that piece, I posted my view on it just there. Do think he is too critical of a few things. I'd say Rafas signings up to 2 seasons ago where overall good, that can't be said for the last 2, even allowing for the lack of funds.

08/09 was a disaster for signings and we are paying for it now, plus he was unlucky with injuries to Johnson and Acquilani out longer than expected. We have gone back a good bit from the start of 08/09 and Rafa has to take some blame for that, as well as lack of money. I'd say the 08/09 signings where terrible, 09/10 unlucky so far.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

People have short memories regarding Bellamy.
He was a value for money signing. But he did not do well here and Rafa never really got the best out of him. i just don't think they clicked.
He was mostly average for us, and i think most were pleased we sold him for a decent price.

Anyway, our squad is unquestionably better now than 6 years ago. But imo much of this current team is coming towards the twilight of their careers, and serious rebuilding is needed.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

whatawaster wrote: »

People have short memories regarding Bellamy.
He was a value for money signing. But he did not do well here and Rafa never really got the best out of him. i just don't think they clicked.
He was mostly average for us, and i think most were pleased we sold him for a decent price.

Anyway, our squad is unquestionably better now than 6 years ago. But imo much of this current team is coming towards the twilight of their careers, and serious rebuilding is needed.

Bellamy's problem is his attitude........it stinks. He is unquestionably, a talented player.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

The Muppet wrote: »

It's amazing how poor the squad is with all these excellent signings.

That's down to one man, Rafa Benitez.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

whatawaster wrote: »

People have short memories regarding Bellamy.
He was a value for money signing. But he did not do well here and Rafa never really got the best out of him. i just don't think they clicked.
He was mostly average for us, and i think most were pleased we sold him for a decent price.

Anyway, our squad is unquestionably better now than 6 years ago. But imo much of this current team is coming towards the twilight of their careers, and serious rebuilding is needed.

Not helped by lack of funds and Rafas signings over the last 2 seasons which have hardly been a success.

Gerrard, Kuyt, Benny, Aurelio and Carra need replacing. Hopefully Acquilani will come good and eventually replace Gerrard but Riera hasn't worked out and he doesn't seem to want to play Babel right wing, though he does seem to have had a change of heart on him lately. I think with a good run of game time he may come good.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Boggles wrote: »

Liverpool had the added advantage being out of all cup competitions early.

Arsenal, Chelsea and United were all heavily involved in cups into the final stages.

The Arse had problems in the camp and Chelsea had manager problems.

Perspective takes the gloss off it, but perspecitve is needed IMO.

We were in the champions league till April. How is that early. Assuming Champions league is effectively a cup. Our season was long by any stretch of the imagination.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

In 3 or 4 years time, i could envisage the following players being important players at Liverpool


Starters
Reina
Johnson
Agger
Skrtel
Mascherano
Torres
Aquilani

Squad
Insua
Lucas
Babel
N'Gog
Shelvey

Plus any young players who come through. Of course the likes of Lucas, Insua and Babel could develop into first teamers. Hopefully Shelvey will.

It's obvious we need to start looking beyond the likes of Kuyt, Carragher, Benayoun, Maxi and most importantly of all - Gerrard. These need to be replaced, a couple every season ideally, over the next few years.

If you look at the list of starters i have above - it's obvious where i believe our squad needs to be strengthened. Most people seem to agree, too.
- a new long term LB
- a new CM player to replace Alonso
- two new attacking midfielders/wingers
- a new striker to partner/stand in for Torres
- Cover for CB

* assuming no young geniuses come through the youth ranks.

Ardent

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So a net investment of ~80m in the squad over the past six years, and a current spend on wages that ranks fifth highest in the Premiership.

Those who maintain a change of manager equals a solve to our problems are not thinking this thing through.

Ah, that old "net spend" chestnut again. It's like a merry-go-round with some LFC supporters - wasn't this sh1te bandied about in order to defend Houllier as well?

Ardent

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

We were in the champions league till April. How is that early. Assuming Champions league is effectively a cup. Our season was long by any stretch of the imagination.

Early is not making it to the knockout stages. Simple really.

Spiritoftheseventies

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Ardent wrote: »

Early is not making it to the knockout stages. Simple really.

I think if you are playing in the quarter finals of a champions league thats a long enough season if you add the league and champions league games together. People putting down our second place finish last seaon on the premise we had gone out of carling cup and FA Cup are talking complete and utter bollocks to be honest. It was a terrific season last year end of.

K-9

All others Yes Rafa should go

whatawaster wrote: »

In 3 or 4 years time, i could envisage the following players being important players at Liverpool


Starters
Reina
Johnson
Agger
Skrtel
Mascherano
Torres
Aquilani

Squad
Insua
Lucas
Babel
N'Gog
Shelvey

Plus any young players who come through. Of course the likes of Lucas, Insua and Babel could develop into first teamers. Hopefully Shelvey will.

It's obvious we need to start looking beyond the likes of Kuyt, Carragher, Benayoun, Maxi and most importantly of all - Gerrard. These need to be replaced, a couple every season ideally, over the next few years.

If you look at the list of starters i have above - it's obvious where i believe our squad needs to be strengthened. Most people seem to agree, too.
- a new long term LB
- a new CM player to replace Alonso
- two new attacking midfielders/wingers
- a new striker to partner/stand in for Torres
- Cover for CB

* assuming no young geniuses come through the youth ranks.

True, that's the disadvantage of looking at the squad now and then. We can say now for definite that the one he took over was poor enough, barring a few quality players. Look at the prices he got for the players. We are a squad in transition. One things for sure, if Rafa stays and he gets funds during the Summer, he needs to do better than 08/09 signings and hope Johnson and Acquilani deliver on their potential.

Hopefully a few of our Reserves will have developed by then. The likes of Pacheco, Ayala, Spearing etc.

SlickRic

Ardent wrote: »

Early is not making it to the knockout stages. Simple really.

they're talking about last season. not this.

SlickRic

Mental Mickey wrote: »

That's down to one man, Rafa Benitez.

horse bollix.

how in the name of Dalglish is it all his fault?

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

Ardent wrote: »

Ah, that old "net spend" chestnut again. It's like a merry-go-round with some LFC supporters - wasn't this sh1te bandied about in order to defend Houllier as well?

Yeah, I guess you're right. Net figures in any walk of life are irrelevant - it's all gross baby! I suppose the amount spent on wages and how that stacks up against the competition also doesn't matter?

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Jeebus H Christmas.

I didn't say it was all his fault. I meant how the team plays tactically is down to Rafa. Last time I checked, he was the manager.


Correct me if I'm wrong, and no doubt you will, but isn't the manager the one who's responsible for picking the team, and organising the tactics?? Are you going to tell me that this down to the owners too!!??

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

kippy wrote: »

Lets be honest here,
There are other managers out there with far less resources who do the job with what they've got.
At the end of the day, HE is the one buying the players. If they dont work out for him, despite their cost ultimately HE has to be responsible for them. He was after more control at the club. He got it and also got rid of Parry who allegedly screwed them over in the transfer side of things. They've gone downhill since.
As I said, getting rid of Alonso, no matter how it happened and his subsequent replacement by a not inexpensive highly injury prone midfielder was one set of transfer dealings that he didnt get right. The tone was set at the start of the season and the rot set in from there.

Your missing the point at a club of Liverpool's stature I am sorry but that is not enough money.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, I agree with your points, just posted that piece, I posted my view on it just there. Do think he is too critical of a few things. I'd say Rafas signings up to 2 seasons ago where overall good, that can't be said for the last 2, even allowing for the lack of funds.

08/09 was a disaster for signings and we are paying for it now, plus he was unlucky with injuries to Johnson and Acquilani out longer than expected. We have gone back a good bit from the start of 08/09 and Rafa has to take some blame for that, as well as lack of money. I'd say the 08/09 signings where terrible, 09/10 unlucky so far.

In some ways yes and we have got rid of 2 of the 3 of them in a year to 18 months. Riera was brilliant for the first 6 months but badly regressed which is down to the attitude of the player himself.

The one thing I admire is he knows when to get rid if he has made a mistake but the thing is he didn't get the money back to get a replacement for Robbie Keane which is my opinion is not his fault.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

Ardent wrote: »

Ah, that old "net spend" chestnut again. It's like a merry-go-round with some LFC supporters - wasn't this sh1te bandied about in order to defend Houllier as well?

All opinions changed of Houllier when he made the biggest mistake which we never recovered from under his reign. That night in Leverkusen changed all that along with countless others the season after when he should of dropped Steven Gerrard after the Basel performance right through the ineptitude of the signing of Diouf more so than in my opinion Diao and Cheyrou who while not the greatest of players actually tried their best.

There is countless others but it all stemmed from that night in Leverkusen which had we got through we would have faced Manchester United and actually gone on to win the Champions League that season. Compare that side in 2001/2002 till his last season at Anfield.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So a net investment of ~80m in the squad over the past six years, and a current spend on wages that ranks fifth highest in the Premiership.

Those who maintain a change of manager equals a solve to our problems are not thinking this thing through.

I agree, and I support Benitez almost fully on these matters.
My problem with him is that tactically he has become stubborn to a fault, and technically we look sub-standard and under-coached.
I don’t know if it’s coaching, philosophy, or just the players we’ve brought in – but basic footballing skills seem to be lacking in much of our squad. Either they don’t have them or they’re not being let use them. The quality of our passing is often shocking. The movement of players off-the-ball is shocking. Everything is so rigid and forced.

That’s the area I think a new manager can improve us in. I think we have a lot of players (Aquilani, Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun, Babel, Lucas) who would benefit from more freedom, more fluidity. Not that Rafa hasn’t gotten big improvements out of most of these players. I just think fresh ideas are needed. I’m not sure Rafa has it in him to change his ways.

SlickRic

nice moving of the goalposts there.

you answered...

The Muppet wrote: »

It's amazing how poor the squad is with all these excellent signings.

with this.

Mental Mickey wrote: »

That's down to one man, Rafa Benitez.

now it's not that simple.

Rafa is responsible for players and tactics, abso-f*cking-lutely. but if his hands are tied by financial constraints where he has to sell players to fund for better players, then you start to see the whole picture.

it's a club problem, not merely a Rafa problem, as you seemed to suggest.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

can someone link me to the cost of the 23 (or whatever number) players in the squad and the wages for the top teams, i would be surprised if man for man liverpool were even 5th in either table, therefor 5th should be rafas target, any more he is a success, any less its not.

i love all this "we should be aiming for titles", with our finance we have no right to think about titles...

also K9 good list but there is absolutely no way Aurelio on a free was a "bad buy"

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

whatawaster wrote: »

I agree, and I support Benitez almost fully on these matters.
My problem with him is that tactically he has become stubborn to a fault, and technically we look sub-standard and under-coached.
I don’t know if it’s coaching, philosophy, or just the players we’ve brought in – but basic footballing skills seem to be lacking in much of our squad. Either they don’t have them or they’re not being let use them. The quality of our passing is often shocking. The movement of players off-the-ball is shocking. Everything is so rigid and forced.

That’s the area I think a new manager can improve us in. I think we have a lot of players (Aquilani, Gerrard, Torres, Benayoun, Babel, Lucas) who would benefit from more freedom, more fluidity. Not that Rafa hasn’t gotten big improvements out of most of these players. I just think fresh ideas are needed. I’m not sure Rafa has it in him to change his ways.

I agree with everything here. He won the CL playing this way, and hasn't deviated from it ever since.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I agree with everything here. He won the CL playing this way, and hasn't deviated from it ever since.

Actually, we've shown we can play differently many times. Rafa is the same coach he was 12 months ago (and coaching is his forte) but there is no doubt in my mind that he and his team are currently doing a substandard job, whereas a year ago they were doing an excellent job.

My main problem with Benitez this year is that his answer to a tactic not working seems to involve persisting with the same tactic over and over again for months until one day it works again.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

if people think rafa is too rigid and everything is drilled, thats exactly what Roy Hodgson does so dont expect any better from him...

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

whatawaster wrote: »

Actually, we've shown we can play differently many times. Rafa is the same coach he was 12 months ago (and coaching is his forte) but there is no doubt in my mind that he and his team are currently doing a substandard job, whereas a year ago they were doing an excellent job.

My main problem with Benitez this year is that his answer to a tactic not working seems to involve persisting with the same tactic over and over again for months until one day it works again.

Too bloody rigid.

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

if people think rafa is too rigid and everything is drilled, thats exactly what Roy Hodgson does so dont expect any better from him...

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

BastardPrince wrote: »

if people think rafa is too rigid and everything is drilled, thats exactly what Roy Hodgson does so dont expect any better from him...

It's also exactly what Mourinho does.

But if you watch Fulham at their best, Liverpool at their best, Inter at their best - they all pass the ball well, players move into space, everything flows well.

The problem is about 90% of the times we've played this season benitez hasn't gotten them playing anywhere near their capabilities. Whether it's down to coaching methods, communication problems, poor motivation, none of us can know.

People will blame injuries, despite the fact that our injury problems this season have not been exceptional, but rather comparable to those of other teams.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I agree with everything here. He won the CL playing this way, and hasn't deviated from it ever since.

He won 2 la liga's and UEFA Cup winning this way so surely we can see why he is stubborn. Mourinho has the same philosophy with regards to his style of play, Ferguson has gone back to his two out and out wingers. Managers go back to the tried and tested what works for them.

I would have hated to see if Shankly or Paisley were around today people would be calling for their heads. Both went without winning a trophy for a number of years, no patience in the world today.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mental Mickey wrote: »

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

And Rafa hasn't??

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

Mental Mickey wrote: »

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

Rafa's one La Liga, the uefa Cup, the FA Cup, the Champions League. His trophy cabinet is far more impressive than Roy's

Mental Mickey

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

whatawaster wrote: »

It's also exactly what Mourinho does.

But if you watch Fulham at their best, Liverpool at their best, Inter at their best - they all pass the ball well, players move into space, everything flows well.

The problem is about 90% of the times we've played this season benitez hasn't gotten them playing anywhere near their capabilities. Whether it's down to coaching methods, communication problems, poor motivation, none of us can know.

People will blame injuries, despite the fact that our injury problems this season have not been exceptional, but rather comparable to those of other teams.

Its down to coaching/management in my opinion.

SlickRic

Mental Mickey wrote: »

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

at least do some research before you regurgitate stuff like that.

he's won a couple of trophies in Sweden and Denmark.

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mental Mickey wrote: »

I agree with everything here. He won the CL playing this way, and hasn't deviated from it ever since.

The nature of our football from the Real CL tie through to the end of last season was markedly different to the football we played from January to May 2005. Yes, the tactics were the same, but they were just executed more efficiently by better players.

People have been screaming and roaring about our tactics for a large slice of this (and previous) seasons. It is common for posters to demand a reversion to 4 - 4 - 2, when that formation is hardly used by any top team in European football anymore. The tactics have worked, can work. The problem is the degree to which the players have been executing.

Now, obviously poor execution on a consistent basis points to a malaise in terms of motivation and confidence. And I do blame Benitez for that, it would be churlish not to. But those factors were severely exacerbated by the mental come down from preseason expectations suffered around the time of the Lyon ties.

I genuinely believe that the slate will be wiped clean for the players by default over the course of the summer. From August there will be one clean and clear objective: finish in the top four. I look at the squad, and I see the bones of what achieved a club record 38 game league season points haul. And I look at the manager and see a guy who is accomplished, has the credentials to get the objective done.

Therefore I can only conclude that the best thing for the club would be to stand pat in so far as it is possible to do so. I don't think we need a new manager on the sole basis that they will provide a clean slate or new beginning. And if I don't buy into it on that basis, I am certainly not going to be convinced that the realistic replacements will bring an edge in terms of managerial ability.

5ForKeeps

All others Yes Rafa should go

http://live4liverpool.com/view-from-the-kop/the-broader-picture-must-be-seen-on-rafas-future

Good read...

LuckyLloyd

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mental Mickey wrote: »

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

Ah come on man. Go to wikipedia and compare the respective trophy hauls of Benitez and Hodgson - then come back here and apologise.

Beyond ridiculous!

whatawaster

Liverpool fans No Rafa should stay

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The nature of our football from the Real CL tie through to the end of last season was markedly different to the football we played from January to May 2005. Yes, the tactics were the same, but they were just executed more efficiently by better players.

People have been screaming and roaring about our tactics for a large slice of this (and previous) seasons. It is common for posters to demand a reversion to 4 - 4 - 2, when that formation is hardly used by any top team in European football anymore. The tactics have worked, can work. The problem is the degree to which the players have been executing.

The tactics we use, by and large, do not work away from home without Torres in the team.
N'Gog or Kuyt cannot cope with the levels of isolation than Nando can. No other top team in England commits as few players into the box as we do.

The responsibility for players executing a tactic lies with the manager. And i don't think our manager once considered dropping Gerrard for poor form last season. Or Carragher. Or Kuyt. But Benayoun, who hadn't been nearly as bad, gets left out in the cold for games on end. You can't sympathise with Rafa in these instances.

The tactics have worked, and can work. But imo they need Torres on the pitch and our players firing for them to work properly. In the absence of those things last season Benitez had no plan B. You have to admit that is worrying. For a coach who has displayed great tactical accumen in the past.

Chardee MacDennis

All others Yes Rafa should go

Mental Mickey wrote: »

One difference, though.........Hodgson has won a lot of trophies wherever he's been.

any of the major trophies in europe ie premier league, serie a, la liga, uefa cup or champions league?

coz rafa has won 3 of those...