What do I need? Whammy question

Eoinzy123

Hi

I was wondering what do I need to keep a guitar in tune from whammying and how much
Heres the guitar, it has a vintage tremolo system

http://www.cheapbandgear.com/Silvertone_Shredder_Cobalt_Blue_p/sik1%20cbl.htm

NoQuarter

You need a locking nut. It clamps down on the strings to stop them moving. Not sure how much though! youd have to get it put on professionally but shouldnt cost too much!

Eoinzy123

If I only need that thats brilliant I thought I would need a floyd rose for 222euro thang god cheers m8

Alanstrainor

Be sure to check out the costs of the modifications, as they my not be worth it on such a "cheap" guitar, it could just be better to upgrade the guitar entirely.

Demeyes

You should be able to do some stuff and keep in tune if you get locking tuners and a new better nut. Most of the time with vintage style trems the strings will get caught at the nut and make it go out of tune. If you get a well cut graphite nut it should help with that. The locking tuners will help too.
I wouldn't recommend getting a locking nut. It's a hefty modification to make because you have to make a little shelf for it to sit on that will require the removal of some wood. That's not going to be easy to reverse. The other main reason I would advise against it is because that bridge doesn't have any fine tuners. You won't be able to make any slight adjustments to the tuning if it goes out, basically you'd have to loosen the lock nuts everytime you have to slightly adjust the tuning.
With those old style trems you can do some slight whammy stuff but if you want to go around doing dive bombs and flutters you should really get a guitar with a double locking system on it or you'll be constantly tuning.

Eoinzy123

Im buying it from my mate, thats not the website it cost him more and sounds near enough to an ibanez its just a crappy version . Like the epiphone to a gibson ...... I think. Anyway moneys tight so could I not just get a double locking system put on? I will be doing divebombs, flutters and all that jazz

darrenw5094

Eoinzy123 wrote: »

If I only need that thats brilliant I thought I would need a floyd rose for 222euro thang god cheers m8

If you want a whammy for full dives etc. you will need a Floyd Rose or Ibanez type bridge. You would then need to route the body to insert the new bridge.

The Kahler bridge might be an option. They are back in production again and some of them fit right on top of the body with no other changes.

68 lost souls

You would not be able to use a locking nut on its own because it would not be able to be tuned properly. The kahler is an option DarrenW is right in that if you want proper whammy action you would need a floating tremolo not a vintage trem as the vintage trem has very little up movement and somewhat restrained down motion. It will not always necessarily return exactly to pitch since you are bending the steel in the hope that it returns to its exact origional postion.

The best bet for that particular guitar without dramatic changes such as routing the guitar and fitting a floyd rose or similar which would cost in excess of 400 including labour would be a graphite nut and saddles and locking tuners. The nut and saddles should come in well under 50, the locking duners would be around 75 and some drilling may be required for them.

PeterIanStaker

darrenw5094 wrote: »

If you want a whammy for full dives etc. you will need a Floyd Rose or Ibanez type bridge. You would then need to route the body to insert the new bridge.

The Kahler bridge might be an option. They are back in production again and some of them fit right on top of the body with no other changes.

[

this may be slightly off topic, but do Kahlers not require top routing? sorry

Eoinzy123

So with graphite nut and saddles and locking tuners should I be able to do dive bombs and It wont go out of tune from a few dive bombs

Demeyes

Eoinzy123 wrote: »

So with graphite nut and saddles and locking tuners should I be able to do dive bombs and It wont go out of tune from a few dive bombs

No, it probably will still go out of tune with some dive bombs, but will stay fairly in tune after some subtle trem usage with those added. If you want to do the full on whammy stuff you really need the double locking trem.

Eoinzy123

Any idea about how much that would be? If I get that will i not need graphite nut and saddles and locking tuners?

darrenw5094

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

this may be slightly off topic, but do Kahlers not require top routing? sorry

The Kahler Hybrid in the pic above does NOT need routing. I have fitted one recently. Some of the other Kahler bridges do need routing.

But a Floyd needs routing etc. which would set you back about €400, all in, that was quoted earlier.

The Kahler Hybrid bridge would cost about €160 from USA including tax etc.

-Chris-

If you google around a bit you'll see some info, but here's what I think/do (without spending the earth):

Get a soft pencil (5B) and get lots of graphite in the grooves of the nut.
Replace the tuners with locking tuners (I use the self-cutting Planet Waves tuners)
Have as few turns of string on the tuners as possible.
Set the trem flat to the body, so you can drop the pitch, but not raise it.
Add an extra spring to the trem.
Make sure you stretch your strings very well after you fit them.
You can possibly replace the saddles on your bridge with graphite saddles, although I haven't so I can't vouch for that.
I've also read that SRV used to take the plastic covering from thin-gauge electric wire and put it on the ball end of the string to reduce breakage at the bridge.


Basically, the issue with vintage trem systems is that because they're "crude" they don't always return to the exact same place they used to be. The advantage of the Floyd Rose system is that it clamps the string at both ends, guaranteeing the string stays a fixed length, and the trem rests on knife edges so that it can't move around.
By contrast the vintage trem rests on 6 screws and doesn't always return to the same place which leads to it falling out of tune, and the harder you dive-bomb the more likely it will return to rest in a slightly different position than it was when you tuned it.

What you want to do is remove as much friction as possible and make it more likely for the system to return to the same place it was pre-divebomb. That includes having as few winds on the tuners as possible and setting the trem flat to the body.

It'll never be perfect, but I wouldn't bother spending rakes of money on buying & fitting new trem systems on a budget guitar.

darrenw5094

Pure madness really. Defeats the whole purpose of buying a cheap guitar.

Better of just passing on the guitar and buying a used Jap Ibanez. RG570 or something similar.

PeterIanStaker

darrenw5094 wrote: »

The Kahler Hybrid in the pic above does NOT need routing. I have fitted one recently. Some of the other Kahler bridges do need routing.

But a Floyd needs routing etc. which would set you back about €400, all in, that was quoted earlier.

The Kahler Hybrid bridge would cost about €160 from USA including tax etc.

So if you wanted to put it on an LP, the only cutting of wood required would be for the locking nut? There's no way I'd be up for fully routing it for a floyd

Alanstrainor

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

So if you wanted to put it on an LP, the only cutting of wood required would be for the locking nut? There's no way I'd be up for fully routing it for a floyd

Why are you talking about an LP all of a sudden? There is no way any of those bridges are just going to sit on top of an LP and work.

Demeyes

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Pure madness really. Defeats the whole purpose of buying a cheap guitar.

Better of just passing on the guitar and buying a used Jap Ibanez. RG570 or something similar.

I'd tend to agree. Doing expensive mods on a guitar like that just to make it have a good trem isn't really worth it, you'd end up spending more on parts than you did on the guitar. There are plenty of people selling used Ibanez, Jacksons and ltds that have decent bridges already that would do the job well.

darrenw5094

The Kahler Hybrid might fit onto a LP and work. But the guitar that the OP talked about, was another guitar with a flat body.

You could spend €400 on upgrades to that guitar, but you won't increase the value when or if you sell it. Still only a cheap guitar really. The Kahler would fit and seems to be the cheapest option, but i still would forget it and look at a Jap guitar with a floating bridge (Floyd etc.)

Eoinzy123

Would this work? Or is it cheap and nasty so it wouldn't be any good?

Eoinzy123

Sorry forgot the link

http://www.suntekstore.com/electronic-guitar-tremolo-bridge-double-locking-system.html

Eoinzy123

Sorry forgot the link

http://www.suntekstore.com/electronic-guitar-tremolo-bridge-double-locking-system.html

Might be able to spend about 100euro to get parts

-Chris-

You'd need to allow for the cost of someone properly re-routing your guitar and setting it up. That's not going to be cheap.

Seriously, in a budget guitar spending extra money making it something it isn't is just throwing good money after bad. Buy the guitar and set it up as well as possible, or buy a different guitar that's set up for a locking-trem system from the factory.

68 lost souls

I would listen to the people who are saying to put the extra money into a better guitar. You will appreciate it in the long run.

Eoinzy123

Well then could I get some links anyone for a guitar 300 Budget with a locking-trem system

-Chris-

http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=215873&cat=191

http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=194824&cat=191

http://www.adverts.ie/showproduct.php?product=191020&cat=191

i57dwun4yb1pt8

buy a better guitar - what you have there is not worth the hassle of upgrading.

darrenw5094

DaDumTish wrote: »

buy a better guitar - what you have there is not worth the hassle of upgrading.

The best option is above.

Buying a cheap Floyd would be a nightmare. IF you did get the body routed properly, cheap Floyds don't stay in tune like the high quality trems.