Does religion have a place in 6th Year Graduations?

Keogg

Hey, I'm in sixth year in a Community school, and the last few weeks our year has beening planning our graduation ceremony. Now our chaplain is one of the teachers helping us organise everything, and she has us planned to say a Psalm and have a priest to come and bless us during the ceremony.
I frankly, and a lot of others in our year, don't think this is at all necessary. Two friends of mine complained to her and she told them to talk to the principal about it, seeing as he's in charge. They started a petition yesterday and had already gotten about 30 signatures (out of about 100) and the principal told them to stop.

I just wanted to know what your opinions are on religion in schools that aren't a one religion school, what would you do in a situation like that? Any ideas?

bazmaiden

It depends, how young are kids in 6th year now?

old hippy

Keogg wrote: »

Hey, I'm in sixth year in a Community school, and the last few weeks our year has beening planning our graduation ceremony. Now our chaplain is one of the teachers helping us organise everything, and she has us planned to say a Psalm and have a priest to come and bless us during the ceremony.
I frankly, and a lot of others in our year, don't think this is at all necessary. Two friends of mine complained to her and she told them to talk to the principal about it, seeing as he's in charge. They started a petition yesterday and had already gotten about 30 signatures (out of about 100) and the principal told them to stop.

I just wanted to know what your opinions are on religion in schools that aren't a one religion school, what would you do in a situation like that? Any ideas?

I think you should be allowed opt out of the blessing - it's not on, you clearly feel uncomfortable with the idea of it. And what right has the principal to make you cease with the petition? Perhaps make the campaign bigger? Facebook, letters to the local papers, talk to local radio?

easyeason3

Would you not just suggest that anyone who wants to be blessed at the mass thing goes up to the front, kinda like the communion wafers.

That way you keep the teacher happy & it's easy to pick out the lickarses to beat up later

GLaDOS

They'd be 17/18/19

There was a religious element at my graduation as far as I remember, but I went to a CBS so it's to be expected

Keogg

old hippy wrote: »

I think you should be allowed opt out of the blessing - it's not on, you clearly feel uncomfortable with the idea of it. And what right has the principal to make you cease with the petition? Perhaps make the campaign bigger? Facebook, letters to the local papers, talk to local radio?

I'm not sure about why he got them to stop the petition, probably made him look bad or something:pac: He said they'd discuss it on wednesday when we're back in school, I'd say he'll probably turn it into an opt-in or out thing, more than likely

minidazzler

I don't think religion should have a part in anything within the state's remit TBH.

quicklickpaddy

It depends. If you go to a religious school then thats just how the school is run. It's their ethos and its part of what they're doing through your education.

I'm not a religious person, but when I was in school we were thought by the Carmelites and I always found the religion in the school pretty perfect. I didn't call myself a Catholic but the chaplains were always around and really helpful. And our religion class was literally a meditation class sometimes.

In terms of your graduation, it is all about the people leaving the school obviously, but you cant turn around and tell the school you disagree with how it's run and its basic principals!

old hippy

Keogg wrote: »

I'm not sure about why he got them to stop the petition, probably made him look bad or something:pac: He said they'd discuss it on wednesday when we're back in school, I'd say he'll probably turn it into an opt-in or out thing, more than likely

I hope it works out well for you Keep us informed

quicklickpaddy

minidazzler wrote: »

I don't think religion should have a part in anything within the state's remit TBH.

The schools are generally set up and run by the Church, not the state. The state subsidises them which I don't think anyone can argue with? If you don't want to be in a religious environment then don't go to a religious school

Seachmall

I think it should be up to the parish to organise the blessings and kept separate from the actual graduation process.

--LOS--

I went to a convent of mercy school so ye Catholicism everywhere, there were even 2 girls in the year who were some form of protestants and the schools attitude to them was ridiculous, any time there was anything religious on those 2 would always be targeted to take part too. Im not religious in the slightest but that's just something you have to put up with in schools, if you feel it's wrong, just don't go, otherwise just go and forget about it, you can avoid those things nicely after school.

eightyfish

We had a mass to end the year during my 6th year too, in 2000. The students got the chance to pick the song that was played at the end of the mass. Survey sheets went around, collected by students, and after a couple of days the chosen song turned out to be... 'Smack My Bitch Up' by The Prodigy.

Says it all really.

No, they didn't let us use it.

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

If you don't want to be in a religious environment then don't go to a religious school

He or she probably doesn't have much say in what school they go to, don't you think?

In an ideal world, religion would not be involved in schools and people could choose at age 21 or whatever, if they wish to be one religion or no religion.

But I digress

Seachmall

--LOS-- wrote: »

if you feel it's wrong

It is wrong, children can't get an education nowadays without being indoctrinated to a religion.

quicklickpaddy

old hippy wrote: »

He or she probably doesn't have much say in what school they go to, don't you think?

In an ideal world, religion would not be involved in schools and people could choose at age 21 or whatever, if they wish to be one religion or no religion.

But I digress

You could have at least quoted everything I said :rolleyes:

Well if it effected/distressed you that much you could always move school? I don't think anyone's issue with the religious influence in schools is really that big or they would have moved already. I take the point that religion shouldn't be shoved down your throat (I'm not religious at all) but your parents, at least, do make the decision to send you to a religious school and whether you want to adopt their beliefs or not, you have to respect them.

--LOS--

Seachmall wrote: »

It is wrong, children can't get an education nowadays without being indoctrinated to a religion.

Ye it is but still doesn't change what you believe in yourself, fact is you're going to have to put up with religion in your life; funerals, weddings etc, you can fight your cause and avoid all of these things or you can be happy enough in yourself knowing your own beliefs and not feeling the need to insult others to get your point across.

Seachmall

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Well if it effected/distressed you that much you could always move school?

In my town there were 4 secondary schools, all of them were owned/run/whatever by the Church. They all had Christian teaching, same goes for the local primary schools. I assume most towns are the same, there isn't much choice.

--LOS-- wrote:

Ye it is but still doesn't change what you believe in yourself

My point is Children don't get the choice, they're taught the Catholic beliefs from a very young age all the way up until they leave school.

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

You could have at least quoted everything I said :rolleyes:

Well if it effected/distressed you that much you could always move school? I don't think anyone's issue with the religious influence in schools is really that big or they would have moved already. I take the point that religion shouldn't be shoved down your throat (I'm not religious at all) but your parents, at least, do make the decision to send you to a religious school and whether you want to adopt their beliefs or not, you have to respect them.

Respecting others religious beliefs is one thing but having to endure a ceremony when you clearly feel uncomfortable with it?

I'm relatively comfortable myself that I can now go in Catholic Church and marvel at the beautiful art etc without getting het up about dogma and priests and all that. For me, religion is something I now have a choice in, thank goodness. I wish I'd had more choice when I was younger. Admittedly, I did end up in a non-denominational school but I still had several years of religious instruction rattling around my bonce

quicklickpaddy

Seachmall wrote: »

It is wrong, children can't get an education nowadays without being indoctrinated to a religion.

Yes they can. There are more and more multidemoninational schools springing up around the place. If you really want to avoid religion you can.

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Yes they can. There are more and more multidemoninational schools springing up around the place. If you really want to avoid religion you can.

There certainly are more of these schools but unfortunately, demand for places outweighs availability...

Mike 1972

I agree it is wrong however attendance at these events is not compulsary and if you feel really strongly about it you could always (shock horror) stay at home/boycott the Graduation ceremony/ organise your own

Its the day to day indoctrination within normal school time that people should be making an issue of.

red_ice

Alot of schools are founded by and run by churches these days. If your school is, then deal with it. You chose to go there and theres no point in trying to change the way it works.

I was in terenure college and we had a mass for everything. Yea, people tried to change the way things ran, but it didnt happen. Thats how they said the education should be handled, and thats that.

IMO, if you are in a school that is tied to a church, you should stfu and deal with it, so should the other 30 signatures on your list. Gets on my nerve all this religious bashing that goes on on these forums.

Otherwise if your school is not tied to a church... dont go to the mass. Its quite simple really.

Pittens

In my town there were 4 secondary schools, all of them were owned/run/whatever by the Church.

Really? even very small towns seem to have at least one vocational school.

quicklickpaddy

old hippy wrote: »

Respecting others religious beliefs is one thing but having to endure a ceremony when you clearly feel uncomfortable with it?

I'm relatively comfortable myself that I can now go in Catholic Church and marvel at the beautiful art etc without getting het up about dogma and priests and all that. For me, religion is something I now have a choice in, thank goodness. I wish I'd had more choice when I was younger. Admittedly, I did end up in a non-denominational school but I still had several years of religious instruction rattling around my bonce

I think you might be being a little over dramatic... And if you clearly feel uncomfortable with it then don't go through the Catholic education system? (which you didn't) To be honest I'm struggling to see what you're complaining about? The existence of a Catholic education system? Because nobody is forced to use it!

Mike 1972

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Because nobody is forced to use it!

Obviously you dont live in Ireland on planet earth

red_ice wrote: »

. Gets on my nerve all this religious bashing that goes on on these forums. .

Perhaps you should take your own advice and

red_ice wrote: »

stfu and deal with it.

Seachmall

Pittens wrote: »

Really, even very small towns seem to have at least one vocational school.

Nope, we had the Parish school, CBS, Colaiste and another smaller Church run school. It's actually quite a large town too.

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

I think you might be being a little over dramatic... And if you clearly feel uncomfortable with it then don't go through the Catholic education system? (which you didn't) To be honest I'm struggling to see what you're complaining about? The existence of a Catholic education system? Because nobody is forced to use it!

I spent most of my school years under the RCC influence & was quite grateful to get out of it before it drove me mad. I realise not everyone has the same experiences at school - to some it may just be a minor irritant but it was more than that to me.

People are forced to use it when there's not enough places in the non-religious schools. Or they're forced to use it when they are sent to religious schools by domineering or shall we say - traditional - parents.

quicklickpaddy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Obviously you dont live in Ireland

Obviously :rolleyes:




Sarcasm really doesn't transfer all that well over writing

--LOS--

Seachmall wrote: »

My point is Children don't get the choice, they're taught the Catholic beliefs from a very young age all the way up until they leave school.

Well I was in religious schools all the way up till I started college and I still chose for myself from a very young age even though all of my family are quite religious.

I do think religious schools are a joke myself but tbh I would rather not fight it, I don't feel the need to prove my beliefs to anyone else.

Btw I do agree with you that what school you go to isn't a choice, I don't know any non catholic schools near me, unfortunately who your parents are and their subsequent beliefs isn't a choice either.

OP it's simple, just don't go if you are that against it, otherwise just don't over think it or you'll be fighting your whole way through life. If there's a funeral or something that I really have to go to, I'll go, I won't take part in the prayers or the communion or whatever but it doesn't bother me that much, I know my own beliefs at the end of the day.

RolandIRL

not every town has a wide range of schools.
my town used to have an abbey and an convent but these joined together into a community school with a catholic ethos. if i wanted to go to a different school, i'd have an extra 40 minutes travelling in the morning and evening as opposed to 15 mins down the road. my parents (who only have one car) would be forced to drive me there every day, and collect me in the evening.
the only multi-denominational school, i think, was the grammar school, which was fee-paying, and my parents wouldn't be able to afford that.

i didn't really have a choice in what school i went to, as some of ye posters seem to think everyone has. so i had to go to the one school in my town (which is a mid-sized town).
i'm not complaining about it. just saying i didn't have any other school to go to.

IvySlayer

ScienceNerd wrote: »

They'd be 17/18/19

There was a religious element at my graduation as far as I remember, but I went to a CBS so it's to be expected

*high five*

Survived a CBS too

To the OP, Religion has no place anywhere other than the inside of a church.

quicklickpaddy

old hippy wrote: »

People are forced to use it when there's not enough places in the non-religious schools. Or they're forced to use it when they are sent to religious schools by domineering or shall we say - traditional - parents.

Then the problem is with the parents not the system? As I said, there are more and more non-religious schools being set up and for the most part - religious schools can be avoided, if not in 100% of the cases, but again more are being built so the issue is being addressed.

Do you agree with the OP? If you are in the Catholic system do you think it's reasonable to complain about the Catholic influence?

robinph

How is this blessing malarkey work, are they processing you all individually as you go to collect you bit of paper, or is he doing it to everyone at the same time?

Has to be some non confrontational way of avoiding it and not causing a scene. Go up say "Thanks but, no thanks" when the bloke trys to do his thing to you and collect you bit of paper, smile and leave.

Seachmall

robinph wrote: »

How is this blessing malarkey work, are they processing you all individually as you go to collect you bit of paper, or is he doing it to everyone at the same time?

Has to be some non confrontational way of avoiding it and not causing a scene. Go up say "Thanks but, no thanks" when the bloke trys to do his thing to you and collect you bit of paper, smile and leave.

Everyone at the same time I think, unless they did it when you got the Eucharist (which I didn't, so they might have).

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Then the problem is with the parents not the system? As I said, there are more and more non-religious schools being set up and for the most part - religious schools can be avoided, if not in 100% of the cases, but again more are being built so the issue is being addressed.

Do you agree with the OP? If you are in the Catholic system do you think it's reasonable to complain about the Catholic influence?

I think it's reasonable if you are in the RCC system - whether Catholic or not - to complain, if it offends your sensibilities.

And I stick to my argument that there are not enough places in non-denom schools & that sometimes your parents will send you to religious schools and expect you to swallow the dogma, hook, line and sinker.

hotmail.com

Good look with the petition. Community schools are meant to be devoid of religion at these types of events. Odd that it's even being mentioned and slightly offensive to those that do not subscribe to the Catholic faith.

Mike 1972

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Because nobody is forced to use it!

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

if not in 100% of the cases

Backtracking I see

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

but again more are being built

Not quickly enough

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

so the issue is being addressed.

Coming along nicely just like global poverty, racism, world peace, traffic in the mornings, the national debt..........

quicklickpaddy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Backtracking I see


Not quickly enough


Coming along nicely just like global poverty, racism, world peace, traffic in the mornings, the national debt..........

Right so. What's your solution?

And as far as not being 100% available, someone just said here that it'd take an extra 25 minutes to get to the non-denominational school. Yes, Catholic schools outnumber the non-Catholic but if you're not bothered to make your way out to the later then don't complain about it!

Einhard

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

The schools are generally set up and run by the Church, not the state. The state subsidises them which I don't think anyone can argue with? If you don't want to be in a religious environment then don't go to a religious school

Most religious schools in Ireland were set up at least 50 years ago, and are not "subsidised" by the state, but funded almost 100% by the taxpayer. So you can't say that they're religious schools and people should thus expect them to be run along religious principles.

Also, the Churches are patrons of approx 90% of secondary schools. In many towns and villages there's no such thing as a secular school. The only way people could follow your suggestion and not go to a religious school is not to go to school at all. Great solution.

old hippy

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Right so. What's your solution?

And as far as not being 100% available, someone just said here that it'd take an extra 25 minutes to get to the non-denominational school. Yes, Catholic schools outnumber the non-Catholic but if you're not bothered to make your way out to the later then don't complain about it!

But what if you can't? What if your parents insist on a religious schooling?

RolandIRL

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Right so. What's your solution?

And as far as not being 100% available, someone just said here that it'd take an extra 25 minutes to get to the non-denominational school. Yes, Catholic schools outnumber the non-Catholic but if you're not bothered to make your way out to the later then don't complain about it!

you're not taking my whole point. i said extra 40 minutes, and fee-paying which a lot of parents wouldn't be able to afford. and when you factor in the cost of driving there, waiting in traffic. almost 2 hours round trip for my parents.

so i think some people do have the right to complain!

Nodin

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

The schools are generally set up and run by the Church, not the state. The state subsidises them which I don't think anyone can argue with? If you don't want to be in a religious environment then don't go to a religious school

...which, in Ireland, is virtually impossible.

Nodin

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Then the problem is with the parents not the system? As I said, there are more and more non-religious schools being set up and for the most part - religious schools can be avoided,

Ahahahaha...yeah.

Einhard

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Yes they can. There are more and more multidemoninational schools springing up around the place. If you really want to avoid religion you can.

I don't think it's an issue of wishing to avoid religion, more a desire not to be forced into anything against your will. Wouldn't it be fairer and more practical to have a simple opt in policy for the blessing ceremony, rather than tell those who don't wish to take part that they can move to another town or school? Especially seen as at least 30% don't want to participate?

Mike 1972

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

The state subsidises them which I don't think anyone can argue with?

Er I think youll find a lot of people here doing just that !

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Right so. What's your solution?

Ive gone into this before but here we go again...........

Government passes legislation providing for the phasing out of all public funding for Church/Private schools over ten years with an option to acquire for a (very) nominal sum the Churches interest in some/all of these schools.

Einhard

red_ice wrote: »

Alot of schools are founded by and run by churches these days. If your school is, then deal with it. You chose to go there and theres no point in trying to change the way it works.

I was in terenure college and we had a mass for everything. Yea, people tried to change the way things ran, but it didnt happen. Thats how they said the education should be handled, and thats that.

IMO, if you are in a school that is tied to a church, you should stfu and deal with it, so should the other 30 signatures on your list. Gets on my nerve all this religious bashing that goes on on these forums.

Otherwise if your school is not tied to a church... dont go to the mass. Its quite simple really.

Where's the choice if there are no decent secular schools within your area? Also, seeing as secularists contribute to the running of schools through taxes, why should they even have to make such a choice? I don't want to pay taxes to subsidise anyone's religion, especially if it's to the exclusion of fellow secularist/atheists.

old hippy

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ive gone into this before but here we go again...........

Government passes legislation providing for the phasing out of all public funding for Church/Private schools over ten years with an option to acquire for a (very) nominal sum the Churches interest in these schools.

A fab idea but you can just see the opposition to that, can't you?

The die hards would never acquiesce.

aDeener

dont like it dont go to it!

its like those damn marrow fat peas that somehow keep ending up on my plate, i dont eat them

quicklickpaddy

Ya know what... I give up :rolleyes:

My experience with the Catholic system was good even though I'm not religious and I know I could have move to a non-demonational school relatively easily. I'm outnumbered here and I get the impression most people quoting me are not from Dublin... Which obviously changes things.

old hippy

aDeener wrote: »

dont like it dont go to it!

its like those damn marrow fat peas that somehow keep ending up on my plate, i dont eat them

Blasphemy!