Non-physical differences between men and women

Stheno

donfers wrote: »

if they're doing it because that's the way they are then fine, if they're doing it because they think acting like male assholes is empowering then I have a problem with that

I'd agree with this, I've no desire to emulate the male assholes that I know, but in terms of sports, I enjoyed playing rugby as it gave me an outlet for stress/agression. I was talking about it with a couple of male colleagues recently, we were discussing taking up golf after one of them suffered an horrendous arm/hand injury playing rugby, and we all agreed the comparision just wasn't there

In terms of crude/lewd behaviour I'd feel the same, I'm not a huge fan of either, more so as I've gotten older, but if that's how you are then be it because that's you.

storm2811

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is the fact that many schools are gender segregated, so certain subjects are just not possible, hell my guidance teacher didn't' have any info on any of the DIT or engineering courses anywhere back in the day. I was told that doing Chem, Bio and Physics was too much and I should drop one for something less challenging.

:eek: That's mad!
My metalwork teacher was such a sexist..
"ah now lads even the GIRLS are doin better than ya!"
"look at this work and now look at this girl's work! its far better than yours,you're doing worse than a WOMAN!!"

In an extreme culchie accent:pac:

Stheno

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is the fact that many schools are gender segregated, so certain subjects are just not possible, hell my guidance teacher didn't' have any info on any of the DIT or engineering courses anywhere back in the day. I was told that doing Chem, Bio and Physics was too much and I should drop one for something less challenging.

storm2811 wrote: »

:eek: That's mad!
My metalwork teacher was such a sexist..
"ah now lads even the GIRLS are doin better than ya!"
"look at this work and now look at this girl's work! its far better than yours,you're doing worse than a WOMAN!!"

In an extreme culchie accent:pac:

I'd a different experience the three schools in town pooled their curriculum to offer the widest choice for students.

So I did Maths in the boys school, English in the Vocational school, the boys did Chemistry in my school and the girls who did physics did that in the boys school.

Made for a lot of trekking between schools.

I would say that in Maths class in the boys school I felt the teacher was resentful that he had girls in his class, but not to the detriment of our education, more an attitude that he himself personally held.

opinion guy

nouggatti wrote: »

I'd agree with this, I've no desire to emulate the male assholes that I know, but in terms of sports, I enjoyed playing rugby as it gave me an outlet for stress/agression. I was talking about it with a couple of male colleagues recently, we were discussing taking up golf after one of them suffered an horrendous arm/hand injury playing rugby, and we all agreed the comparision just wasn't there

Golf is probably not the best idea if they had an arm/hand injury tbh

Stheno

opinion guy wrote: »

Golf is probably not the best idea if they had an arm/hand injury tbh

True, but we were trying to figure out alternatives to rugby given our ages You've reminded me that I've had two fingers fairly well smashed over the years, one due to rugby the other to a dog bite ! The bloke in question however had something like eight fractures to his hand/wrist/fingers and is still recovering.

Nevyn

Squash.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is the fact that many schools are gender segregated, so certain subjects are just not possible, hell my guidance teacher didn't' have any info on any of the DIT or engineering courses anywhere back in the day. I was told that doing Chem, Bio and Physics was too much and I should drop one for something less challenging.

+1. Good news though is nowadays people go to the internet instead of guidance counsellors for course info!

opinion guy

Thaedydal wrote: »

I was told that doing Chem, Bio and Physics was too much and I should drop one for something less challenging.

Actually I think I was told that too. The thinking was that biology took an awful lot of work. Perhaps it was just some dogma and nothing to do with gender.

minidazzler

Thaedydal wrote: »

I was told that doing Chem, Bio and Physics was too much and I should drop one for something less challenging.

I would kinda agree with this to a certain extent. Bio is alot of work with less overlap than Chem and Physics have together. May I ask were you the only one doing this? Were any males told the same?

I would agree with what has been said so far. IME, women are more outwardly emotional about things, while alot of guys I know would simply say they are wrecked even with the most stressful stuff going on, they won't say they are feeling pressure, they will just say tired. My female friends will go into specifics about college work and such.

That said, I think men are easier to get a read on when hiding there feelings than girls are. It's easier to tell if a guy is pissed off because while we try to hide it, it seems most don't do very well. While knowing if a female is hiding being pissed off is harder I think.

iptba

Thaedydal wrote: »

One area where the difference in the socialization of girls has show to have a clear effect is when it comes to trying to diagnoise female children who are on the autism spectrum.

For a long time unless a female child was acutely autistic it would go un noticed and esp in terms of those who are high functioning and those who are considered to have aspergers disorder. Girls are under a lot more pressure to fit in and conform and not stand out from a young age and other girls are frankly vicious when you don't so a female child who is high functioning autistic or who has aspergers will have to learn more social skills and traits to survive then a boy of the same age; even when they are in a mixed gender schooling environment.

For a long time it was tought that there were no women with aspergers and it was a 'male' condition, this isn't true but women who have it are seen as werid and more 'male'.

Men who are considered odd or eccentric are often a lot more accepted then women who are.

Wibbs wrote: »

Men who are considered odd or eccentric are often a lot more accepted then women who are.

+1 Women in groups are IME less accepting of outliers than men. They're less accepting of male outliers too. I've seen situations where a guy is a bit "odd" and while the men generally ignore it or even try to engage, the women will tend to avoid like the plague or ramp themselves and each other up exaggerating the threat he may pose. That "threat" ripples through the group increasing with time. Of course they may be dead right and are seeing something the men arent, but in general I'd say not so much. Then again it could simply be that women in general have more reason to watch for threats of both a physical and especially sexual nature, so have social hair triggers for that sort of thing?

I was quite friendly in college with a girl who went on to be diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome (it was a bit by chance we spent so much time together as we were a bit different but we both were around college during the summers and did the same course). It would be a pity if there was a bigger delay for women to get diagnosed. To be honest, it should probably be easier to spot because, as a psychologist friend of mine who actually worked with Aspire for a while described it, Aspergers is like a sort of extreme maleness (can't remember exact word but something like that). So her (a girl with Aspergers) behaviour, interests, etc should stand out more as abnormal than a male's.

I remember one time she wore into college (normal college day) the grey shirt from her school uniform which simply did not go with any of the other clothes and colours she was wearing. I was never the most fashion conscious person but her clothes choices and combinations were very odd for a college age student (i.e. a lot of people lose a bit of interest in their appearance when they're older and settle down - men anyway). There were plenty of other things that were odd characteristics in a girl.

Anyway, she fitted in ok with a certain (nearly all male) crowd in college (I didn't hang round much with her except during the summers). While I could see that she could have stood out as being odd in the girls' school she had gone to.

Also there would guys in the course who sometimes wrote witty imaginary skits slagging people off. But even though she would have been an easy "target" she was generally left out. I think often guys tend to slag off other guys more.

iptba

dearg lady wrote: »

I do also think becasue we expect to find differences in people due to gender we actively search them out. For example if I generally expect a woman to be more emotional I'll notice it more in a woman, I won't be looking for big emotional displays for a man.

I think I'd be the opposite in some wys - I'd notice it more if somebody was behaving a bit differently e.g. (to use your example)
big emotional displays from a man.

Nevyn

minidazzler wrote: »

I would kinda agree with this to a certain extent. Bio is alot of work with less overlap than Chem and Physics have together. May I ask were you the only one doing this? Were any males told the same?

Convent school, they were hoping to get those of us doing physics to drop it, not Bio, we had to fight to keep it and the honors maths class and were told that there was no chance of an applied maths class.

minidazzler wrote: »

That said, I think men are easier to get a read on when hiding there feelings than girls are. It's easier to tell if a guy is pissed off because while we try to hide it, it seems most don't do very well. While knowing if a female is hiding being pissed off is harder I think.

Men showing anger is acceptable, women showing anger is not.

We limit people by what is considered 'acceptable' emotions for them to display due to gender.

opinion guy

Thaedydal wrote: »

were told that there was no chance of an applied maths class.

Yeah we were told that too.

sam34

Thaedydal wrote: »

Convent school, they were hoping to get those of us doing physics to drop it, not Bio, we had to fight to keep it and the honors maths class and were told that there was no chance of an applied maths class.

i went to a convent school also

i had to fight long and hard to be allowed do the three science subjects for my leaving. my physics class consisted of 3 female pupils.

SugarHigh

sam34 wrote: »

i went to a convent school also

i had to fight long and hard to be allowed do the three science subjects for my leaving. my physics class consisted of 3 female pupils.

I don't think that's a sexism issue at all. If their were only 3 people doing physics the school will try and encourage them not to do it so they don't have to pay a teacher for just 3 pupils. Not to mention physics probably gets some of the lowest grades of all the subjects.

Nevyn

They way children are segreated and educated does have an impact on them and the subjects offered limits thier opertunities and will have a knock on effect in them looking as possible careers.

Kooli

I'm another one who was in a glass of 4 girls for physics. I didn't see any sexism though, there were very few of us who were interested in it. Any of us that were interested were encouraged.

Another thing I think of as very male is competitiveness and ambition. The idea of wanting to be the best at something or reach the top of something is something I would see more in men than women. I would definitely see this as a result of socialisation rather than biology though. In a culture where men have traditionally been the breadwinners it is understandable that things would develop this way - even now when things are changing there is still a belief that a 'real man' should be able to support his family, so his career will head in a direction with this in mind.

As a woman I feel I am much more able to aim for job satisfaction, personal reward etc. rather than getting to 'the top' and that is totally acceptable socially. It's also more acceptable as a woman to talk about ambition and success in those terms (i.e. personal satisfaction) than as a man.

I wonder if this area is also connected the previously mentioned observation that the top positions in most jobs are held by men. Others see this as down to the fact men tend to hold the extremes of any dimension (i.e. the best at something, the most intelligent) but I wonder if it is to do with their higher need to achieve and succeed.

Kooli

donfers wrote: »

What are you trying to prove here?

I read that as a self-defeatist and rather transparent admission to feelings of gender inferiority.

I see that a lot on boards actually.

Often women say with pride that they are tomboys, that they prefer to hang out with guys, or give examples of how they defy gender stereotypes.

These are all well and good as neutral facts (and often they are just presented as interesting facts), but when they are worn as a badge of pride, it's just further evidence of how masculinity is the 'norm' and anything 'feminine' is seen as negative or lacking.

opinion guy

Kooli wrote: »

I'm another one who was in a glass of 4 girls for physics. I didn't see any sexism though, there were very few of us who were interested in it. Any of us that were interested were encouraged.

But why were very few interested ?

Snowie

Thaedydal wrote: »

women showing anger is not.

in fairness id rather not be near any woman who going awol, it can be very scarey, I was attacked bye a girl i lived with once, and every one was in bed i was the only one awake i think she was just looking for a fight she slapt me scraped me, pulled my hair now. whats a guy supposed to do when a womans going full on red rage at him punch her lights out ?
If i do that i look like a woman beater if I dont i run the risk of possibly injury.

Your a woman its easy to say but for a guy on the receaving end of a woman on that kinda of beheavour its nto a perticularly nice feeling.
Unfortunatly there little we can do but take it because if we fight back were the bad person.

Now can you honestly tell me what a guys supposed to do in that situation?

Maguined

Thaedydal wrote: »

Men showing anger is acceptable, women showing anger is not.

We limit people by what is considered 'acceptable' emotions for them to display due to gender.

I agree that what is considered acceptable emotions is dependant upon the gender and the context but I would disagree that men showing anger is acceptable for men and not for women.

Just from my personal experience when a man displays anger he is labelled as aggressive and if it is excessive he is deemed an asshole while when a woman displays anger she is lauded for her assertiveness and "sticking up for herself".

Kooli

opinion guy wrote: »

But why were very few interested ?

Well I don't really know - why is anyone not interested in anything??
I guess they just weren't interested in the physics they learned in junior cert science, and I imagine the fact that it is associated with maths also put a lot of people off.

This one could very well be genetic, I don't know. From my very limited experience of my own school, I didn't witness any social pressure leading to three full biology classes, a full chemistry class and then us four loners in physics!

I actually started doing biology for the LC (as well as physics) and after about 3 weeks I realised I really wasn't interested so I changed to home ec. You could ask the same question - why wasn't I interested? But that's a hard question to answer without just saying 'I just didn't find it interesting'. Others would have said the same about physics.

donfers

Kooli wrote: »

I see that a lot on boards actually.

Often women say with pride that they are tomboys, that they prefer to hang out with guys, or give examples of how they defy gender stereotypes.

These are all well and good as neutral facts (and often they are just presented as interesting facts), but when they are worn as a badge of pride, it's just further evidence of how masculinity is the 'norm' and anything 'feminine' is seen as negative or lacking.

I agree completely, I think that feminine qualities should be more celebrated and valued in both men and women

donfers

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

in fairness id rather not be near any woman who going awol, it can be very scarey, I was attacked bye a girl i lived with once, and every one was in bed i was the only one awake i think she was just looking for a fight she slapt me scraped me, pulled my hair now. whats a guy supposed to do when a womans going full on red rage at him punch her lights out ?
If i do that i look like a woman beater if I dont i run the risk of possibly injury.

Your a woman its easy to say but for a guy on the receaving end of a woman on that kinda of beheavour its nto a perticularly nice feeling.
Unfortunatly there little we can do but take it because if we fight back were the bad person.

Now can you honestly tell me what a guys supposed to do in that situation?

absolutely nothing, sit and take it or flee.....we are rightly programmed from an early age never to raise your arms to a women, to be honest in this day and age with all the stuff I read about in the media I would be reluctant to even restrain the woman as I'm sure that could be construed as something or other that meant me-eveil, her-victim so just get the hell out of there or take it.

Nevyn

I ever said about anyone going awol or being agressive, I wasn't on about extreme displays of anger.

Maguined

Thaedydal wrote: »

I ever said about anyone going awol or being agressive, I wasn't on about extreme displays of anger.

If this is in response to my post then I agree with you because when I see men and women going awol or being extremely aggressive in my experience they both get judged negatively as equally.

However I meant in the more normal smaller displays of anger normally passively taken out on those around them I have found the men get judged negatively while for women it is seen as more an indication of their assertiveness and something viewed positively by other women.

An example of the above would be a couple of weeks ago a man and a woman had a bit of a row in the office over a work related issue, the row got heated and both got heated and angry, both started displaying anger towards each other. Out of all of us in the office I would estimate that the vast majority of the men thought they were both as bad as each other in that they couldn't control themselves and act like adults, half the women felt this same way and the other half felt the man was acting extremely rude in the way he spoke to the woman while they supported the woman completely saying she was sticking up for herself etc even though if truth be told she was the one that initiated the rude comments and angry behaviour in the first place.

They were both acting like children but the display of anger has always been more acceptable and tolerated from women in any office I have worked in. When a man displays anger its because he is a man and at fault, when a woman displays anger there are always mitigating circumstances to excuse her behaviour.

Snowie

Thaedydal wrote: »

I ever said about anyone going awol or being agressive, I wasn't on about extreme displays of anger.

apoligys, the cheery was a bit far from the tree on that one.