How Can This be Stopped?

Vegeta

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof.

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

scartman1

Stevoman
I agree with you, it must be a terrible way for an animal to die and I would not do do it myself. While I have shot foxes to control their numbers I do not hate them, but I have met many that do and they treat them as many do treat rats. Even rats should if practicable not be poisoned but killed with spring traps and other devices that kill quickly.

In fact until recently I thought that Poisons like Strycnyne and Arsenic had been outlawed. Years ago many farms had poison notices up, but in recent years their prevalence had diminished, I thought this was so due to legislation prohibitting their use, but i was wrong it seems.

Alun

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible.

Out of interest, has this ever led to any prosecutions?

jap gt

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

dont see why you cant give the figures, was any one you have caught been convicted in court?

Vegeta

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Figures! Figures! I'm not permitted to give them to you but I was there I caught the pups responsible on many many occasions. Not Sea Eagles but Buzzards and many other birds and mammals. I've see the bodies, I've found the poisoned bait, I've tracked down and spoken to those responsible. Have you????

Sorry Winston Future Ear but you've made a statement that more clubs have been caught illegally poisoning than farmers

I just wanted to know if this was true or not
Is this in your experience?
In the recorded history of the state and therefore an actual fact as opposed to an opinion

Why are you making this personal?

You made a broad statement and you must have based this on some fact or records of court convictions or the like.

Surely you're not letting your personal experience colour your opinion of the majority of gun clubs?

scartman1

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof..

I'm not saying that some gunclubs are not responcible for some careless use of poisons and would of course not condone it. It is obviously a combination of factors that have led to the poisoning of the Sea Eagles, each to a lesser or greater degree. I think being fair to my post that the tenor of my argument could reasonably be taken to be anti poisoning, but if it was to be permitted by the laws of the country, some of the measures could be applied to anybody using poisons, not simply farmers. As regards proof, you willadmit that I'm not running a court case, but it is reasonable to assume that Farmers who poison sheep carcases, close to where the dead eagles have been recovered are responsible. Proving it is another days work.

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

Let's leave politics aside shall we? The Greens are a political party with certain philosophies. They are not a Nature or Bird Watching party. They are not a countryside party. Also "the government and the Green party" should either read "the Government" or "Fianna Fail, The Green party, and and independant TD". Nature is best discussed by leaving political agenda outside.

Again, I was simply trying to contribute positively to the argument and apportioning some responsibility to those that are in a position to run the country for us. I think that if these issues are of concern to us then it is only a good thing that those that we elect know and respond to our wishes. It in reality is an important means of affecting change. I am not a member of a political party, and why I mentioned the Greens was that they should be more aware of the importance of this issue given its core values, and the Minister for the Environment, who is responsible for the Eagles, is a Green. You have mentioned that they are not a countryside party and this is so, but they are in a position to have an influence for the good and the Bad, as are all the parties, particularly those in Government.

I am on your side of the argument, I think that it is a Utter Disgrace that a few misinformed people have caused this damage to this program of the eagle reintroduction. I'm simply giving my opinion as to how we can best influence a positive result for this situation.

Mothman

scartman1 wrote: »

I am on your side of the argument,

With regard to the subject in hand, I think everyone here is on the same side and collectively I'd like us to band together to come up with practical solutions to indiscriminate poisoning.

Kess73

Winston Future Ear wrote: »

You are immediately laying blame on farmers, without approtioning any responsibilty on the hunting fraternity; when Gun Clubs have been caught illegally poisoning more often than farmers ever have been. I'm not saying farmers are clean in this but just get the facts straight and don't go laying blame without any proof.

Let's leave politics aside shall we? The Greens are a political party with certain philosophies. They are not a Nature or Bird Watching party. They are not a countryside party. Also "the government and the Green party" should either read "the Government" or "Fianna Fail, The Green party, and and independant TD". Nature is best discussed by leaving political agenda outside.

Actually the Green Party and their leader should not be left out of it. Gormley in particular seems quite fond of showing at the launches for reintroduction schemes and likes getting his photo taken at such events, and he is quick to give soundbites with regards to his interest and involvement, so if he is quick to put his name to things by turning up for pictures for the papers, then it is only right that people are just as quick to ask questions of him and his party regarding these issues.


As for farmers and gunclubs laying poison, I would imagine that there is a majority that do things the right way with regards to lessening their impacts upon wildlife and the enviroment, but there is a minority that do damage that belays their numbers, and as such can wrongly cause the tarring of that majority.

danbohan

cuddlycavies wrote: »

it's gonna be difficult to stop. We live in a country invested with lazy rednecks who have lived for generations in a state of war with the country's wildlife. They will not listen so will not learn.

yes those rednecks know nothing about the countryside , it should be handed over to dublin 4 greenies in their 4 wheel drives , they are real experts !

LostCovey

Vegeta wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong but do you have the figures for this

I won't call you a liar, Vegeta, but do you have figures for that?

LostCovey

cuddlycavies

danbohan wrote: »

yes those rednecks know nothing about the countryside , it should be handed over to dublin 4 greenies in their 4 wheel drives , they are real experts !

Nobody is suggesting D4 greenies running ''the countryside''.
But if you think that our farmers act as responsibly towards wildlife as say their english counterparts, then you are in denial. Despite a hugely bigger population over there, reintroduction projects have worked.
Right through my childhood, I remember time after time, apperances and reports of rare birds were usually followed by reports of their shootings. Farmers that I knew left traps on posts, poisoned meat in fields and expressed surprise where an owl was found dead on the post or a raptor poioned by the meat.
It's something of a miracle that Buzzards are so common now. Interestingly theyy are probably most common around Dublin Metero area Must be all the D4 greenies in their 4WDs.

BarryM

While waiting for the answer about the actual convictions from the supposed 'source' on here, can anyone answer the q of the relationship between the numbers of eagles released and the numbers poisoned and the breeding rate of the released eagles? I raise the q because in nature all sorts of things happen, including poisoning, so is the release programme creating a population of the eagles which can withstand the cull rate??

Of course I abhor the poisoning. If I recall the original programme included discussions with the local farmers but one has to presume there are those who won't play ball.

cuddlycavies

Answers. No prosecutions re poisoning of eagles.
No breeding of white tails as yet.
One third of forty odd released birds poisoned or shot.
Only Golden eagle born and fledged in Ireland last year poisoned.
White tail poisoned last week was of breeding age.

Farmers? well, last week I was on the Kerry way walking and keeping an eye out for them. Spoke to a shepherd in Black valley about sightings. He said they were on the upper lake. He had seen them. he then added, ''they're supposed to be a coastal bird you know''. Pub talk no doubt. The eagles that bred for centuries at Wicklows Lough Bray were white tails, hardly coastal.
On the way through the Bride valley I saw two substantial meals for the birds, a drowned lamb and a goat caught in a fence.
On reaching Glencar, I spoke to the hotelier about the eagles. He told me his joy of seeing one soaring whilst having coffee at the lovely steeping stones cafe in Bride valley. Only to find two birds had been poisoned in Glencar valley. He confirmed for me that the eagles are not the targets here. it's just a lazy way of dealing with grey crows amd foxes.
I dont know what the real answer is. But the shame felt by the hotelier is not generally matched in the farming community.

nilhg

One thing which surprises me about this ongoing problem is the amount of carbofuran being used as a poison and the apparent lack of reaction from the Dept of Ag, I know that they have a special investigations unit who have huge powers to inspect and search premises and take prosecutions if they find anything which shouldn't be there. Carbofuran is banned here now but was legal once (I used it myself, Yaltox granules were sown with beet seed to stop insects destroying the crop) but old stocks should long ago have been used or returned for destruction.

News travels fast, a few farm visits in the areas where the birds are being found dead would send a message.

scartman1

nilhg wrote: »

One thing which surprises me about this ongoing problem is the amount of carbofuran being used as a poison and the apparent lack of reaction from the Dept of Ag, I know that they have a special investigations unit who have huge powers to inspect and search premises and take prosecutions if they find anything which shouldn't be there. Carbofuran is banned here now but was legal once (I used it myself, Yaltox granules were sown with beet seed to stop insects destroying the crop) but old stocks should long ago have been used or returned for destruction.

News travels fast, a few farm visits in the areas where the birds are being found dead would send a message.

Yes i agree, this would yield results.

magicbastarder

Kess73 wrote: »

Also any "green" grants involved for farmers or land owners should be done away with. It has proven to be a waste of tax payers money. I would much prefer to see that money being divered to the various animal welfare centres and the like where it will be doing some good.

you mean abandon the REPS scheme (or whatever is left of it), etc.?
animal welfare centres are barely a drop in the ocean - there's not much point in nursing a badger back to health if there is no habitat to release them into.

i'm far from an expert, but i expect that the amount of money you could muster to give to such centres and any other environmental organisations would be of miniscule benefit compared to getting farmers on side. they're the ones who own most of the land.

Birdnuts

Reports coming of yet another eagle found dead in Kerry:mad:. This madness needs to stop. It appears this spring has marked an escalation in the activities of the scum who are now well on their way to wiping out some of the most magnificiant wildlife we have from Irish skies for a second time. I would appeal to the people behind these projects to halt further re-introductions immediatly and try to re-capture as many eagles as possible in the west of Ireland for return to their donor countries ASAP.The continuing lack of action by the Irish authorities is not only an insult to the hardworking people behind the project, the ordinary taxpayer etc. but also to the donor countries. This is rapidly becoming not alone a conservation crisis, but an animal welfare one too. Despite all the taxpayer and EU money pumped into rural areas it seems we are rapidly returning to the dark days of the recent past when the likes of strcynine laced bait was found in every second field in the Irish countyside. I'm begining to doubt if even the likes of buzzards can hack this type of sustained onslaught over large areas of this state.

PS: Given that recent information suggests a countrywide problem, I for one have deceided that me and my family will boycott all Irish lamb products until this situation is properly addressed by both the Irish authorities and farming organisations. And I would encourage others to do the same given that whats happening in Ireland is now being widley reported in the UK and has the potential to do signficant damage to the irish food/agri sector given has so much of the industry sales is based on our "green":rolleyes: image. Bord Bia/failte etc. can only get away with spinning this type of BS for so long in the face of mounting evidence to the contray:(

greeneyedspirit

Birdnuts wrote: »

Reports coming of yet another eagle found dead in Kerry:mad:. This madness needs to stop.

Indeed - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0511/breaking54.html

Sickening. absolutely sickening.

from the article

All three eagles were found dead within one kilometre of each other and it is believed they died after eating an animal carcass laced with the banned pesticide and poison carbofuran

... can anybody tell me why there are no searches of farms in the area, and if illegal poison/substances are found, followed up with hefty fines etc?

RonMexico

This is a disgrace but I fear that ignorance will win out unfortunately. I can't wait to raise this with any politician that dares to darken my door.

Birdnuts

I have alot of respect for Dr Alan Mee and the team in Kerry but surely its time reality kicked in and the project abandoned. Releasing anymore birds in this poisonous environment would be tantemount to animal cruelty

hmmm

Ending this project is giving in to those who are doing this. We need enforcement of the laws we already have.

Is there anything that ordinary individuals can do? If I knew how to find who was doing this I'd ring the guards myself.

greeneyedspirit

hmmm wrote: »

Ending this project is giving in to those who are doing this. We need enforcement of the laws we already have.

Is there anything that ordinary individuals can do? If I knew how to find who was doing this I'd ring the guards myself.

I agree with hmmm - while I can understand people that are saying we should end these projects, at the same time that would be giving up, and allowing the people putting out poisoned bait to carry on with their ill doings. And we mustn't let that happen.
Very little seems to be done in terms of finding out who did this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to see any follow-up on raptor poisonings, like arrests/raids/fines imposed.

Birdnuts

hmmm wrote: »

Ending this project is giving in to those who are doing this. We need enforcement of the laws we already have.

Is there anything that ordinary individuals can do? If I knew how to find who was doing this I'd ring the guards myself.

Check out Lorcan O' Tooles latest blog entry on goldeneagle.ie. It appears theres a chap in a certain part of Sligo which is a hotspot for illegal poisoning that is well known locally for bragging about his criminal exploits:mad:

mossfort

Birdnuts wrote: »

Reports coming of yet another eagle found dead in Kerry:mad:. This madness needs to stop. It appears this spring has marked an escalation in the activities of the scum who are now well on their way to wiping out some of the most magnificiant wildlife we have from Irish skies for a second time. I would appeal to the people behind these projects to halt further re-introductions immediatly and try to re-capture as many eagles as possible in the west of Ireland for return to their donor countries ASAP.The continuing lack of action by the Irish authorities is not only an insult to the hardworking people behind the project, the ordinary taxpayer etc. but also to the donor countries. This is rapidly becoming not alone a conservation crisis, but an animal welfare one too. Despite all the taxpayer and EU money pumped into rural areas it seems we are rapidly returning to the dark days of the recent past when the likes of strcynine laced bait was found in every second field in the Irish countyside. I'm begining to doubt if even the likes of buzzards can hack this type of sustained onslaught over large areas of this state.

PS: Given that recent information suggests a countrywide problem, I for one have deceided that me and my family will boycott all Irish lamb products until this situation is properly addressed by both the Irish authorities and farming organisations. And I would encourage others to do the same given that whats happening in Ireland is now being widley reported in the UK and has the potential to do signficant damage to the irish food/agri sector given has so much of the industry sales is based on our "green":rolleyes: image. Bord Bia/failte etc. can only get away with spinning this type of BS for so long in the face of mounting evidence to the contray:(

while i agree that the poisining of the eagles is wrong it is only a handful of farmers who are responsible . so to suggest boycotting irish lamb makes no sense at all as it will do nothing to resolve the problem.
no matter what line of work you are involved in there are always a few who break the rules but that doesnt mean you blame everybody.
the truth is we dont know who is responsible for the poisinings so its wrong to say all farmers in general are behind it and they all should be blamed.

E39MSport

Norwegian guy (Norway's Ambassador to Ireland) talking about poisoning in Ireland.edit: Radio 1

Well done RTE and Norway.

related: - http://www.independent.ie/national-news/stop-poisoning-our-eagles-2176153.html

Birdnuts

Norway should do these eagles a favour and not only halt co-operation with this project but request that any remaining eagles be repatriated. The should then issue a lenghty statement highlighting the fact that Irish authorites are happy to preside over a countryside strewn with poison that is wiping out endangered wildlife, pets etc. and also now dragging our green reputation on which so much of our food and tourism industry depends, through the mud.

Drake66

Perhaps a boycott on Irish lamb might not solve the problem in the immediate future; it might however force the farmers responsible- vandals actually- out of the lamb market.

Birdnuts

mossfort wrote: »

while i agree that the poisining of the eagles is wrong it is only a handful of farmers who are responsible . so to suggest boycotting irish lamb makes no sense at all as it will do nothing to resolve the problem.
no matter what line of work you are involved in there are always a few who break the rules but that doesnt mean you blame everybody.
the truth is we dont know who is responsible for the poisinings so its wrong to say all farmers in general are behind it and they all should be blamed.

I've been the greatest apologist for small farmers in thier struggle for a decent wage and a fair share of EU farm grants - however elements within the farming community in both Donegal and Kerry have not returned the good faith shown to them by both project teams who have from day 1 consulted with and informed them of the project and its progress plus issued extensive advice on how to protect their flocks from vermin without resorting to indiscriminate poisoning.

In any case the problem now appears to be countrywide and escalating given the sheer number of incidents and range of species hit this spring. This points to a practice that is rather more common place within the farming community then was previously thought which does nothing for the reputation of Irish farming which is often marketed on the back of this countries "green" image. This coupled with the fact that billions of Irish and EU taxpayers money are spent subsdizing farming incomes every year makes the current state of affairs even more unacceptable:mad:.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

A very valid point has been made. This is nothing new. Bird and mammal species have been killed regularly by laying poison - for many years. You can see the damage now only because of the profile given to Golden Eagles and White Tailed Eagles. We have had many poisoned Buzzards and it's a wonder they have been able to spread across the country at all. We loose birds to poisoning hand over fist but nobody notices because they die somewhere out of sight or teh carcass is eaten by something else that then dies un-noticed. The same applies to mammals. High profile losses get eveybody up in arms but it's bigger than just Eagles.