Anti Women

santana75

WesternNight wrote: »

I don't think many women would disagree with that. It's a massive problem. But it's not the issue of this particular thread.

Have you given any thought to why you feel this way towards women? Is it in certain situations or right across the board? I'm genuinely interested because not many men would admit to actually hating women.

I dont hate women now Westernnight.......at least, when I realised what was going on I took steps to deal with my issues with women, its a work in progress I guess. It was never an issue of violence either, I never have or never would get violent with mrs Santana(or any other woman). It was more of a thing that lurked beneath the surface and manifested itself in different ways(derogatory comments veiled behind humour etc.). But I do have to be constantly vigiliant and aware of my thinking and attitudes towards women.

LegacyUser

Hi OP here,

Wow didn't think this would spark such a massive debate but am really interested in reading all your replies! I don't mind that this thread has been hijacked. I agree with Santana75 though that I think a lot of men maybe on a subconscious level have a certain hatred for women! I think jokes serve a purpose and its a safe way maybe for people to vent their frustrations that maybe they are not even fully aware of! Apparently since the rise of gender equality and PC policies in the workplace for example there has been an increase in the number of men watching abuse porn that portrays violence towards women. One sociologist claims that as men have been gagged to a degree and can't make sexist remarks in the office that some of them resport to viewing violent porn to vent their frustration toward women that they feel they are no longer allowed to express openly. This is not my theory but I read it in an UK newspaper sometime back. I wonder if those seemingly harmless fb are the same thing on a less dramatic scale. I am also curious how much of it comes down to sex. I had this discussion with a male friend who agreed with me that a lot of men hate women. His view was that as men need women for sex and that as a woman can say no or reject a man, men see women as having sexual power over them which they resent. I think a lot of men have unresolved Mammy issues - over controlling mother maybe which they end up transfering on to other women. It's a complex issue. Thanks for all the replies and especially the guys who admit to finding this stuff offensive - feel better even knowing that you exist! Liah I love what you have to say and how you articulate yourself. I can see that this issue has been pushing your buttons for some time too. I am sorry that you have had such a negative experience. All that whore and bitch stuff is so demeaning. Glad I am not alone though!

Eve_Dublin

WesternNight wrote: »

The ones in bold are the ones I'd take most offense to. Whatever about the kitchen references, I have absolutely no time for anyone who jokes about beating women or treating them as if their sole purpose is to provide sex.

Absolutely agreed. These kinds of comments frighten me. Genuinely. I´m guessing in a lot of circumstances that´s their purpose.

DarkJager

I think what you are seeing here is the tipping point. Over the past few years, men have been turned into this "joke" for women to laugh at. I've lost count of how many man hating songs I've heard on the radio, adverts that paint us to be moronic and stupid, or murderers in waiting and other general "stupid men" promotions. It's been pushed and forced so much, that what you are now witnessing is men saying "enough". Not in the most polite or articulate of forms, but an expression of their rejection of this culture none the less.

They've had enough of being ridiculed and generalised and they are now pushing back. You reap what you sow.

WesternNight

DarkJager wrote: »

I think what you are seeing here is the tipping point. Over the past few years, men have been turned into this "joke" for women to laugh at. I've lost count of how many man hating songs I've heard on the radio, adverts that paint us to be moronic and stupid, or murderers in waiting and other general "stupid men" promotions. It's been pushed and forced so much, that what you are now witnessing is men saying "enough". Not in the most polite or articulate of forms, but an expression of their rejection of this culture none the less.

They've had enough of being ridiculed and generalised and they are now pushing back. You reap what you sow.

Woah. You've got this all backwards. Are you suggesting that women's commenting about men came BEFORE men's commenting of women? If anything it came as a reaction and retaliation of the constant discrimination of women by men. Don't even think about telling us that women started all this.

liah

DarkJager wrote: »

I think what you are seeing here is the tipping point. Over the past few years, men have been turned into this "joke" for women to laugh at. I've lost count of how many man hating songs I've heard on the radio, adverts that paint us to be moronic and stupid, or murderers in waiting and other general "stupid men" promotions. It's been pushed and forced so much, that what you are now witnessing is men saying "enough". Not in the most polite or articulate of forms, but an expression of their rejection of this culture none the less.

They've had enough of being ridiculed and generalised and they are now pushing back. You reap what you sow.

Sorry, but this doesn't fly with me. At all.

Women have been seen as less than men for millenia. Okay? That's hundreds upon hundreds of years. And I won't even bring up the Middle East or some parts of Asia where being born female is still seen as being less than human.

And you're trying to tell me that because of a few decades where women have actually found a voice and fought back after all these hundreds and thousands of years of repression, men are getting indignant because of a few adverts where they can't do laundry (which, as aforementioned, also promote the idea that women should be the ones doing the laundry, so is equally sexist)? Are you serious?

You're sitting there acting like every kind of discrimination men get is something women don't. I hate to break it to you, mate, but we have to deal with what this thread's about ON TOP of all the other things you guys are complaining about. Look at adverts. Magazines. Newspapers. Television. Film. In the media, each gender is equally made to look either retarded or sexualized. Neither gender has a monopoly on discrimination in media.

So honestly? No. Your argument is not going to work here. It holds no water. You've been doing this to us since the dawn of time. And this is just too much. Men don't get this. This does not happen to you. Not on this scale.

Where men do have an argument is the area of parental rights, and this stupid idea that all men are pedos or murderers. And trust me, I'm 100% behind you guys on that one. But that, again, is not what this thread's about.

EDIT: Is there any way we can get this thread moved to tLL? I actually really wouldn't mind seeing some points of view of the men and women in there.

tenchi-fan

DarkJager wrote: »

I think what you are seeing here is the tipping point. Over the past few years, men have been turned into this "joke" for women to laugh at. I've lost count of how many man hating songs I've heard on the radio, adverts that paint us to be moronic and stupid, or murderers in waiting and other general "stupid men" promotions. It's been pushed and forced so much, that what you are now witnessing is men saying "enough". Not in the most polite or articulate of forms, but an expression of their rejection of this culture none the less.

They've had enough of being ridiculed and generalised and they are now pushing back. You reap what you sow.

There's definitely an aspect of this that is true.

The slagging on both sides appears "good natured" but for a lot of people it isn't.

One ad for oven cleaner in the UK had the tagline "so easy even a man could to it". 700 complaints later advertising standards decided the ad was light-hearted.

I remember seeing an ad campaign where a boy racer was speeding only for a woman to make a "small penis" gesture with her little finger. Absolutely hilarious, right? Even the newspapers approved of it.

Or if anyone saw 40 days and 40 nights, near the end of the movie the lead character is hilariously handcuffed to his bed and raped by his ex-girlfriend as he slept.

The weird thing is, it's probably a man who thought up these ads and movies!

But groups like the ones that disgusted the op so much were probably set up in a "light hearted" response to this sort of "good natured" humour. One of the groups suggests that it's not ok to hit a pregnant woman in the face.. you should punch her in the stomach. Guess what? There was no pregnant woman. It was just a taboo joke that you didn't find funny.

All over facebook there are even sicker groups with sicker jokes. I can't even stomach the "dead baby" and "necropedophilia" jokes.. so I don't read them! They were just created to offend people. One of my friends thinks they are hilarious. I don't read anything into it. Some sick b****** set up a "madeleine mccann countdown - age until legal".. horrendous, so why did so many of my friends laugh at it?

I was watching family guy and my mam was in the room. Stewie said something along the lines of "Oh, to be the Lindbergh baby right about now." My mam thought it was a horrible - she just didn't "get" family guy's humour.

It actually reminded me of the southpark episode when it was finally ok to laugh at aids.

The op started going on about men not being able to make light-hearted remarks and instead turned to setting up violent facebook pages as an alternative to watching violent porn (a sociologist said it, of course, and her male friend agreed). I think this is nonsense.

DarkJager

You've got me wrong! I'm not trying to belittle the struggle women have faced throughout time. I am giving a male perspective to the question asked. This trend of male bashing is going on a while now, and I'm not the only one to notice it.

I had no part or any responsibility for the oppresion women have faced as a gender, so I don't see why I should have some sort of debt hanging over my head just because I'm male.

Nevyn

Can we keep this on topic and helpful please and the debate can be moved to humanites.

liah

DarkJager wrote: »

I had no part or any responsibility for the oppresion women have faced as a gender, so I don't see why I should have some sort of debt hanging over my head just because I'm male.

No, but that doesn't excuse you trying to justify this behaviour.

PK2008

Woah, woah, woah, the men of today bear no responsibility for the institutionalised sexism of the past.

In fact in the old times women also believed these things as much as men and were raised by their mothers to believe it, and today in the middle east there are also women who beleive that this kind of culture is the correct male/female dynamic.

Im not saying it is right Im just saying that historically men did not hatch an intricate plot to oppress women against their will, it came about through culture and was propogated by women as much as men, both male and female attitudes changed towards this at relatively the same time (yes women fought for it, but you can be sure they were supported by a great many men aswell)

....and most importantly you cannot use it to put down men of today, its not our fault, just as slavery wasnt our fault, or any other historical wrong peratrated by a similar demographic in a different time

liah

PK2008 wrote: »

Woah, woah, woah, the men of today bear no responsibility for the institutionalised sexism of the past.

In fact in the old times women also believed these things as much as men and were raised by their mothers to believe it, and today in the middle east there are also women who beleive that this kind of culture is the correct male/female dynamic.

Im not saying it is right Im just saying that historically men did not hatch an intricate plot to oppress women against their will, it came about through culture and was propogated by women as much as men, both male and female attitudes changed towards this at relatively the same time (yes women fought for it, but you can be sure they were supported by a great many men aswell)

....and most importantly you cannot use it to put down men of today, its not our fault, just as slavery wasnt our fault, or any other historical wrong peratrated by a similar demographic in a different time

Fine, conceded on the history thing, but that doesn't make the rest of my post any less valid. Nor does it justify what's happening.

But anyway, here's the "revised" with the history bits removed, if it moves the argument on at all:

"You're sitting there acting like every kind of discrimination men get is something women don't. I hate to break it to you, mate, but we have to deal with what this thread's about ON TOP of all the other things you guys are complaining about. Look at adverts. Magazines. Newspapers. Television. Film. In the media, each gender is equally made to look either retarded or sexualized. Neither gender has a monopoly on discrimination in media.

So honestly? No. Your argument is not going to work here. It holds no water. And this is just too much. Men don't get this. This does not happen to you. Not on this scale."

WesternNight

Every time you laugh at or tell a joke where women are demeaned, every time you believe or express a belief that women are not capable of doing something as well as men purely because of their sex... you are contributing to the continued discrimination of women. Doesn't matter if you didn't actually chain them to the kitchen sink.

Maguined

I think there are two issues combined in this topic, the first being are offensive jokes kosher and the second being why in particular are men embracing these anti-women jokes.

Personally speaking the first one I am all for, generally anyone I have ever found that has complained about one type of joke being offensive will have always laughed at another joke as equally offensive but not as personally related to them, this is just personal discrimination on the individuals part. I think if you are willing to laugh at any offensive joke then you can't complain when some jokes are personally offensive to you.

The second part I think is men's reaction to modern western society, again this is all speaking from my own personal experience it has been socially acceptable to bash men and make sexist comments about men, if a man did the same then he would be labelled sexist and a misogynist so for the last number of years women have been made these comments and it is seen as socially acceptable so if it is acceptable for men to be bashed and we are living in a supposedly equal society then surely the reverse is true and it is okay for men to joke about these obviously sexist jokes?

I know most women will say that they are the ones that have to put up with these sorts of jokes more often than men but from my own personal experience this is most definitely not the case, I work in financial services over the past 6 years and without fail I have received comments on a weekly if not daily basis that would be considered sexist and misandry but I don't take it personally as I will laugh about all sorts of offensive jokes so it would be hypocritical of me to get annoyed over these jokes made at my expense.

Maguined

WesternNight wrote: »

Every time you laugh at or tell a joke where women are demeaned, every time you believe or express a belief that women are not capable of doing something as well as men purely because of their sex... you are contributing to the continued discrimination of women. Doesn't matter if you didn't actually chain them to the kitchen sink.

Have you ever laughed at an offensive joke? any sort of divisive joke at all? making fun of men ? race ? nationality ?

If you have then you are being hypocritical.

To me the fact that there are so many anti-women jokes around I actually see as being a good sign of equality in society. Men will make offensive jokes about anything, every topic is open for derision, if you really want men to not tell jokes about women then you want women to be treated differently because of their gender, which is the complete opposite of equality.

The only option is not have any offensive jokes in the world at all, in which case I think you are being unrealistic as everyone I have met has laughed at a joke that would be offensive to someone.

Angus Og

Honestly, you can't reduce this stuff to the level of an offensive joke. It goes a lot deeper than that. Would you expect a black man to laugh at a joke demeaning him because he is black? Why would you expect a woman to find this stuff funny?

By your argument, racism would make our society more equal. It doesn't. And passing it off as a harmless joke is not right.

Maguined

Yes I would expect a black man to laugh at a racist joke, I see it all the time, watch a Chris Rock or Richard Pryor performance and you will see them make racist comments all the time, both against white and black people.

The entire point of it being a joke is that it is not real, the fact that people who would genuinely have these viewpoints is the butt of the joke.

I make jokes and laugh about jokes that would be considered personal issues about myself all the time, I constantly am the butt of my own jokes and not a day goes by where I don't make a self deprecating joke in work.

You say it goes a lot deeper than that, well that might go a lot deeper to you so I will ask you directly the question, have you ever laughed at a joke that could be considered offensive to anyone? never a racist joke ? a joke about men ? nationalities ? anything like that?

Angus Og

No, I rarely laugh at all. And you give examples like Chris Rock and Richard Pryor, but seriously, they don't speak for all black men. There are black men who would be offended, and there are women who are offended by sexism.

PK2008

If Chris Rock was white you can be damn sure he wouldnt have left any of his shows alive

This isnt women joking about women, its men joking about women i.e oppressor and oppressed, which is closer to a white comic making racist jokes

DarkJager

PK2008 wrote: »

If Chris Rock was white you can be damn sure he wouldnt have left any of his shows alive

This isnt women joking about women, its men joking about women i.e oppressor and oppressed, which is closer to a white comic making racist jokes

No not really considering females aren't a race. And the idea that only a woman can tell jokes about women smacks of double standards.

Maguined

PK2008 wrote: »

If Chris Rock was white you can be damn sure he wouldnt have left any of his shows alive

This isnt women joking about women, its men joking about women i.e oppressor and oppressed, which is closer to a white comic making racist jokes

So you are telling me the act itself is not to be judged but by who is doing it? so its okay for a woman to make a joke about a woman but a man to make a joke about a woman is sexist?

This is exactly the problem with "positive discrimination" in america, men are no longer oppressing women, both genders are treated equally under the law, there are individual cases of discrimination and that possibility can happen to both men and women equally. Your point about Chris Rock proves this, you said if he was white he would not have left alive, but he and other black comedians can make all the jokes they want about white people and use terms like "honkey" and "cracker" but its "okay" because they are black and we all know that racism is a one way street, its only racism when a white man oppresses a black man and not the other way around.

There are jokes out there about women, there are also as many jokes out there about men. You can't complain about one if you still laugh at any other jokes considered offensive to someone and the simple fact is that someone out there will be offended by some jokes.

Angus Og you said you rarely laugh at all, so what jokes have you laughed at ? have you ever gone to a stand up act or have you ever watched one on DVD if you have i would like to know what it was because i find it almost highly unlikely that you have never laughed at any joke someone would find offensive so if you have and you consider that joke okay but any of these anti-women jokes to be bad then you are a hypocrite.

Angus Og

No, as I said, I rarely laugh. You may find it highly unlikely, but that's the way it is. The problem with your argument is that anyone can find anything offensive if they like, and and anyone can consider anything to be a joke or not a joke if they feel like it.

I don't find sexist jokes funny, whether they are aimed at women or men, but that's just me. I'm a pretty dour person with hardly any sense of humour.

For me the debate is over anyway, since it's really just becoming a nit-picking competition. The original topic was about making fun of violence towards women. I don't find violence amusing.

Maguined

That is the second time you used the word "rarely" rather than saying that you "never" laugh so are you admitting there have been times you have laughed at some jokes that could be considered offensive?

Thats not a problem with my argument, that is core point of my argument, nearly any joke told there is probably someone out there in the world that will be offended by it, to say that it is not okay to make a joke about women but that you are willing to laugh at a joke at the expense of the english/blacks/disabled/etc is purely hypocritical, and the fact is that people laugh at jokes, I think the vast majority of people will have laughed at an offensive joke in their lives so while you can choose which jokes you find funny its pretty arrogant to try and force your own individual tastes in jokes upon everyone else.

When I see some foreign comedian making a joke at the expense of the Irish do i laugh? depends upon how good it is, will i ever get offended? not likely at all.

Okay so you don't find violence amusing, then what do you find amusing? can you think of three times you laughed your ass off at a joke and if so what were those jokes because i reckon they could be offensive to someone.

PK2008

Maguined wrote: »

So you are telling me the act itself is not to be judged but by who is doing it? so its okay for a woman to make a joke about a woman but a man to make a joke about a woman is sexist?

This is exactly the problem with "positive discrimination" in america, men are no longer oppressing women, both genders are treated equally under the law, there are individual cases of discrimination and that possibility can happen to both men and women equally. Your point about Chris Rock proves this, you said if he was white he would not have left alive, but he and other black comedians can make all the jokes they want about white people and use terms like "honkey" and "cracker" but its "okay" because they are black and we all know that racism is a one way street, its only racism when a white man oppresses a black man and not the other way around.

There are jokes out there about women, there are also as many jokes out there about men. You can't complain about one if you still laugh at any other jokes considered offensive to someone and the simple fact is that someone out there will be offended by some jokes.

Angus Og you said you rarely laugh at all, so what jokes have you laughed at ? have you ever gone to a stand up act or have you ever watched one on DVD if you have i would like to know what it was because i find it almost highly unlikely that you have never laughed at any joke someone would find offensive so if you have and you consider that joke okay but any of these anti-women jokes to be bad then you are a hypocrite.

Yeh exactly, im not saying its right, Im just saying it is what it is, black people can use the N word when they like with each other but if a white guy says it to them he will get his a55 kicked. Yep double standards but thats just the way it is.

PK2008

DarkJager wrote: »

No not really considering females aren't a race. And the idea that only a woman can tell jokes about women smacks of double standards.

Well technically theres only 1 race, the human race but Im sure you know what I mean

Maguined

PK2008 wrote: »

Yeh exactly, im not saying its right, Im just saying it is what it is, black people can use the N word when they like with each other but if a white guy says it to them he will get his a55 kicked. Yep double standards but thats just the way it is.

The way it is currently does not justify its legitimacy, men are constantly bashed in the media as much as women are so to complain about women bashing jokes is to perpetuate the double standards.

Women are not dainty little delicate flowers that need to be protected from the world, they are to be treated the equal as men, part of that equality is that they are going to get bashed by jokes equally as often as men are. To suggest they should be treated differently because of their gender so we cannot joke about them is a step backwards in my opinion.

Angus Og

Maguined wrote: »

That is the second time you used the word "rarely" rather than saying that you "never" laugh so are you admitting there have been times you have laughed at some jokes that could be considered offensive?

Thats not a problem with my argument, that is core point of my argument, nearly any joke told there is probably someone out there in the world that will be offended by it, to say that it is not okay to make a joke about women but that you are willing to laugh at a joke at the expense of the english/blacks/disabled/etc is purely hypocritical, and the fact is that people laugh at jokes, I think the vast majority of people will have laughed at an offensive joke in their lives so while you can choose which jokes you find funny its pretty arrogant to try and force your own individual tastes in jokes upon everyone else.

When I see some foreign comedian making a joke at the expense of the Irish do i laugh? depends upon how good it is, will i ever get offended? not likely at all.

Okay so you don't find violence amusing, then what do you find amusing? can you think of three times you laughed your ass off at a joke and if so what were those jokes because i reckon they could be offensive to someone.

No, that's a problem with your argument, as it means anyone can be offended, just because it suits them. I do not believe for one second that women are offended by such 'jokes' because it suits them, they're offended because they feel like they are being attacked for being female.

I have already seen posts with people saying it's fine because men suffer sexism. Unfortunately for them, two wrongs don't make a right.

The last joke I laughed at was 'Why did the chicken cross the road?" I'm sure you will find some way to be offended by that joke, but it is not the same as having a picture of a woman with a black eye, and putting a caption under it.

You obviously laugh a lot, but that is you, not me. You are assuming that I am like you, and find these things funny. Do you laugh at violence against women? I cannot understand how such things even qualify as a joke, so you must be able to understand why I do not laugh.

Wompa1

Made me think of this, skip to 2 minutes in. But in this context the guy is meant to be from a time when women were very opressed

PK2008

Maguined wrote: »

The way it is currently does not justify its legitimacy, men are constantly bashed in the media as much as women are so to complain about women bashing jokes is to perpetuate the double standards.

Women are not dainty little delicate flowers that need to be protected from the world, they are to be treated the equal as men, part of that equality is that they are going to get bashed by jokes equally as often as men are. To suggest they should be treated differently because of their gender so we cannot joke about them is a step backwards in my opinion.

Hold on you're giving out about men being bashed in the media so you think that the solution is to bash women. 2 wrongs do not make equality. If men are being bashed in the media then maybe men should speak out about cos its wrong, just as women being bashed in the media is wrong. i think men just dont speak out about it in the same organised way women do because we never had to organise on the same level.

To be very honest, I have seen those Facebook pages, but Ive never seen any pages directed at how men should be slaves for women in the same way.

Personally I have no problem, if men are protrayed as morons in the media it doesnt affect me because I dont see mself as a moron and therefore dont feel threstened but I can understand the anger this brings up, and its quite obvious that the solution is not to just have a society where people can go round insulting each other whenever they want, it would be mayhem.

Nevyn

If the OP wants this thread re opened they can pm one of the mods.

PI is not a discussion forum, posts are to be helpful to the op with thier problem
the greater issue of this topic is more suited to the Humanities forum which you will all find here.