You are not a f*cking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing c*nt.

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

That ain't my solution; and nowhere in this thread, or any other did I say it was.

But seriously, what's your solution?

1. Dont pay the banks debts, final.
2. Set up one new bank not attached to outside forces with the 24billion of the pension reserve (instead of giving 17billion of it to the bondholders)
3. Withdraw all our moneys from the failed capitalist banks if we dont get terms that are fair in the context of the falsehood of the fractional lending and then seek a loan of far far less at a far far better rate.

We have not negotiated anything here only accepted what we have been offered, in order to have any power in negotating a better deal we need to have the threat that we will withdraw our deposits from their banks & into our new one state bank controlled by the people & not international bondholders.

Once we have a fairer rate of borrowing then we can look at taking a loan in the region of 20 billion at a realistic rate of 1 - 2%, this way we wont sink the country & we do have some hope for the future.

We have just rolled over & taken what we havve been told.

FF/GP sell out bastards.

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

50c to the euro,

The reserves used to create the debt are at its biggest 10c to the euro, i read over a year back now thhat the lending was as high as a ratio of 40:1

So that would make it that the bondholders reserves were actually more like 2.5c to every euro being created in debt.

This is madness, i really cannot fathom how you can accept we for one second should pay the debts of the Irish banks. Its a con.

50c/€1 was an example. Whatever the figure, it would need to be negotiated. And you have absolutely no idea how much bon-holders have as reserves by the way.

And I also don't like the way the Irish people are going to pay for the mistakes of others.

I do however realise that credit (and honouring credit obligations) is at the very heart of business. If debts aren't honoured, it creates anarchy. Bonds are loans, not speculative investments. I also realise that servicing this debt is artificially keeping the system afloat, but I haven't heard many alternatives. So I'll ask again, what's yours?




edit; just reading your above response now

BaZmO*

Pandoras Twist wrote: »

I know they want to work. Half my friends are on the dole and it does their head in. The boredom most of all. There's only so much Jeremy Kyle someone can watch before their brain starts to rot. I'm not saying send them out into the fields for a 50 hour week. But a few hours every day or every few days to keep the mind occupied, add ons for the CV and generally to detach the impression of dole spongers.

You talk about boredom. What about all the charities out there looking for volunteers? Looks a lot better on a CV than working for "the man" for way less than minimum wage. Plus you'd actually be doing some good.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Offered assisstance!!!!! You are deluding yourself,

1. A huge chunk is going to the 'bondholders', in other words back into euro banks at OUR expense, why is it lost on everyone that THIS IS NOT THE PEOPLES DEBT.

But it is our debt. It's Ireland's debt. And for rightly or wrongly our elected representatives got us into the mess and we've now been lumbered with the debt. Europe don't give a flying fvck that it's the people of Ireland that now have to pick up the bill.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Jesus man, its not 'work for your dole', it 'WORK FOR YOUR MONEY'
Every one should have to earn there money if they are capable.

Dole is supposed to be assistance to getting employment. It's not something to be "earned" What do you think your taxes pay for during the times you have been working.

You got strange ideals. You go on about the common man having to pick up the bill for the banks on one hand, and on the other you say they should have to work for less than minimum wage while trying to get back to work.

Is mise le key

BaZmO* wrote: »

But it is our debt. It's Ireland's debt.

What!! This is not every person in Irelands Debt, it belongs to a few thousand people,

If you default on your house should i have to pay for it?

No because you took out the loan & made the commitment.

BaZmO*

Is mise le key wrote: »

What!! This is not every person in Irelands Debt, it belongs to a few thousand people,

If you default on your house should i have to pay for it?

No because you took out the loan & made the commitment.

But using that analogy means that we shouldn't be able to negotiate with the bond holders.

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

1. Dont pay the banks debts, final.
2. Set up one new bank not attached to outside forces with the 24billion of the pension reserve (instead of giving 17billion of it to the bondholders)
3. Withdraw all our moneys from the failed capitalist banks if we dont get terms that are fair in the context of the falsehood of the fractional lending and then seek a loan of far far less at a far far better rate.

We have not negotiated anything here only accepted what we have been offered, in order to have any power in negotating a better deal we need to have the threat that we will withdraw our deposits from their banks & into our new one state bank controlled by the people & not international bondholders.

Once we have a fairer rate of borrowing then we can look at taking a loan in the region of 20 billion at a realistic rate of 1 - 2%, this way we wont sink the country & we do have some hope for the future.

1. Don't pay the debt.

And you then expect to be able to borrow at more favourable rates? Sure who'd give you money if you might not pay it back????? What planet are you living on man? If you default, lending rates go up. Simples.

2. set up a bank not attached to outside forces

I'm not sure what you mean by that

3. Take out our money from foreign banks.

That'll be tough. Because there'll likely be no money. There is a huge possibility that 1. above will lead to a collapse of the banking sector across Europe. No banks = no money. And plus, if we're not going to abide the rules of credit/debt, why should anyone else?

It's a bit like an episode of The Simpsons where Homer and Mr Burns go to Cuba to get a $1b dollar bill off Castro. And on the flight back Mr Burns asks Homer if he can see the note.......Homer hands it to him and Burns puts it in his pocket. Then Homer asks for billion dollar back and Burns just goes "what billion dollar bill?".

electrogrimey

Not sure, but I think some people on here might actually like this. Shocking really. Amazing tune in my opinion though, new Gesaffelsetin remix of Sei A.

http://forwardslashdublin.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/03-body-of-eyes-gesaffelstein-violation-remix.mp3

BaZmO*

electrogrimey wrote: »

Not sure, but I think some people on here might actually like this. Shocking really. Amazing tune in my opinion though, new Gesaffelsetin remix of Sei A.

http://forwardslashdublin.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/03-body-of-eyes-gesaffelstein-violation-remix.mp3

What's shocking?

I quite like it actually, but it reminds me of Believe by The Chemical Brothers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjgaDYzdmiI

electrogrimey

Shocking that I'm posting music on here for once! :pac:

electrogrimey

Is Sounds Around the only DJ shop in town? I know xmusic and aquarius, but they're miles out.

BaZmO*

electrogrimey wrote: »

Is Sounds Around the only DJ shop in town?

Are you looking to buy a DJ?

electrogrimey

BaZmO* wrote: »

Are you looking to buy a DJ?

For the right price.

stomprockin

I want i want i want

Nice classy dj mixer by Allen & Heath DB4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnBCPyN6sA8

Is mise le key

BaZmO* wrote: »

But using that analogy means that we shouldn't be able to negotiate with the bond holders.

Now you see, if you logically found what i said to be correct, that i should not be responsible for your inability to meet you committments then you must also logically agree that it puts us morally correct if we announce that we will not pay anywhere near the full amount you are demanding & that any fraction that we do agree to (even if it is below the bondholders original reserves) makes us completley morally entitled to do & refuse any terms that are in any way harsh on the people of this state.

ianuss wrote: »

1. Don't pay the debt.

And you then expect to be able to borrow at more favourable rates? Sure who'd give you money if you might not pay it back????? What planet are you living on man? If you default, lending rates go up. Simples.

Sorry, you are interpreting the entirety of my post in the wrong way, We begin by saying 'we are not paying this debt', then the second step in the process is to establish a state run & controlled bank not funded externally but using our 24 billion reserves to begin a new bank entirley run & funded by state money & citizens deposits going in & out of it.

ianuss wrote: »

Take out our money from foreign banks.

That'll be tough. Because there'll likely be no money. There is a huge possibility that 1. above will lead to a collapse of the banking sector across Europe. No banks = no money. And plus, if we're not going to abide the rules of credit/debt, why should anyone else?

There is 10's of billions of deposits still within the Irish banks belonging to the wealthiest part of our society, this is where the leverage comes into it, the reality of massive deposits being withdrawn does mean that the current banks would collapse & if they were withdrawn & lodged into a new state bank we would be in a far far better position for businesses to operate with cash flow again that the dead in the water banks we are lumbered with. Once the threat of this massive flight of capital is real by having an alternative bank already within your country, it gives the power to bargain for better terms back to the state. At present the fear is being ramped up that we are all going to perish miserably if the present banking system fails, the truth is the forces behind the present banking system are in fear that their banking system is about to perish miserably & are trying at all cost to maintain the system as we know it. Look around you everyone, the system is fundamentally flawed & unsustainable, it is broken & the 'Elephant in the room' (i hate that phrase) is that this is coming to an end & cannot be fixed.

The writing is on the wall for this failed system, logic tells us that we must now make alternative arrangements if we are to have a functioning society when the inevitable conclusion to all this false economy catches up on itself.

wiki wrote:

A reason for cancelling some debts is that the money loaned by banks is generally created out of thin air, sometimes subject to a small capital adequacy requirement imposed by such institutions as the Bank of International Settlements. Maurice Félix Charles Allais (born 31 May 1911), 1988 winner of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics commented on this by stating “The ‘miracles’ performed by credit are fundamentally comparable to the ‘miracles’ an association of counterfeiters could perform for its benefit by lending its forged banknotes in return for interest. In both cases, the stimulus to the economy would be the same, and the only difference is who benefits.”

wiki wrote:

The problem with sovereign debt, including debt incurred by the U.S. government, is that responsibility for it is diluted. While pundits may insist in the abstract that every American owes tens of thousands of dollars in his share of the national debt, millions of Americans — especially those who (like this writer) have long deplored the unconstitutional and illegitimate profligacy of politicians in Washington and state governments — are unlikely to comply when America’s creditors begin demanding that Americans be shaken down for decades of irresponsible government borrowing and spending.
When American taxpayers are no longer willing or able to pay for the party that the politicos have thrown for themselves, Washington will have little recourse except to try to print its way out of debt. But that too will be difficult when creditors refuse to purchase any more government debt (since issuing debt, primarily through “open-market operations,” is the primary way that central banks like the Fed create new money). When the day of reckoning finally dawns, Washington with little choice besides outright default.

BaZmO*

Is mise le key wrote: »

Now you see, if you logically found what i said to be correct, that i should not be responsible for your inability to meet you committments then you must also logically agree that it puts us morally correct if we announce that we will not pay anywhere near the full amount you are demanding & that any fraction that we do agree to (even if it is below the bondholders original reserves) makes us completley morally entitled to do & refuse any terms that are in any way harsh on the people of this state.

But I didn't find what you said to be correct.

Is mise le key

BaZmO* wrote: »

But I didn't find what you said to be correct.

Really, then we are poles apart on this baz, how can you justly say that if you were to default on your house that it is right to turn to someone else to pick up the tab?

BaZmO*

Is mise le key wrote: »

Really, then we are poles apart on this baz, how can you justly say that if you were to default on your house that it is right to turn to someone else to pick up the tab?

Firstly, let me just say that I agree that the average joe (like me) shouldn't have to pay. But that's the situation we're in at the moment, due to the ineptness of our elected representatives. But the solutions you’re offering aren’t practical.

And as for your mortgage analogy, if I did default on my house do you not realise that someone else will actually pick up the tab somewhere down the line. It’s like insurance policies, if enough claims go in eventually someone besides the insurance company ends up paying for it due to the insurance policies going up.

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

Now you see, if you logically found what i said to be correct, that i should not be responsible for your inability to meet you committments then you must also logically agree that it puts us morally correct if we announce that we will not pay anywhere near the full amount you are demanding & that any fraction that we do agree to (even if it is below the bondholders original reserves) makes us completley morally entitled to do & refuse any terms that are in any way harsh on the people of this state.



Sorry, you are interpreting the entirety of my post in the wrong way, We begin by saying 'we are not paying this debt', then the second step in the process is to establish a state run & controlled bank not funded externally but using our 24 billion reserves to begin a new bank entirley run & funded by state money & citizens deposits going in & out of it.



There is 10's of billions of deposits still within the Irish banks belonging to the wealthiest part of our society, this is where the leverage comes into it, the reality of massive deposits being withdrawn does mean that the current banks would collapse & if they were withdrawn & lodged into a new state bank we would be in a far far better position for businesses to operate with cash flow again that the dead in the water banks we are lumbered with. Once the threat of this massive flight of capital is real by having an alternative bank already within your country, it gives the power to bargain for better terms back to the state. At present the fear is being ramped up that we are all going to perish miserably if the present banking system fails, the truth is the forces behind the present banking system are in fear that their banking system is about to perish miserably & are trying at all cost to maintain the system as we know it. Look around you everyone, the system is fundamentally flawed & unsustainable, it is broken & the 'Elephant in the room' (i hate that phrase) is that this is coming to an end & cannot be fixed.

The writing is on the wall for this failed system, logic tells us that we must now make alternative arrangements if we are to have a functioning society when the inevitable conclusion to all this false economy catches up on itself.

First point; this is why the current bankrupcy laws are currently under review.

Second point; This wouldn't really solve anything. Do you expect this new bank to fund the state? The state currently has enough money to last till June at best. We are runnung massive deficits and cannot afford to run the country without financial aid. GNP is expectedc to growby 0.5% next year (AFAIK) so it's fairly clear that we're not going to be able to manage our own affairs unless we maybe shoot the 400 odd thousand people on the dole out of a canon in to the Irish Sea.

You're saying that the system is flawed and unsustainable and that this is the end........logic says we must make alternative arrangements etc (whatever that means? what logic?). This same flawed system is largely responsible for the modernisation of the western world - cars, roads, medicine, technology.......the general high standard of living we all enjoy.

I think we're beginning to go around in circles here Is Mise. You clearly have your beliefs and I have mine. [edit] Mine are based on logic, reason and fact and yours seem to be based on misunderstanding and rhetoric[edit]. But just for the record, I'm not some sort of right wing capitalist - I'm actually a socialist at heart, but I'm also a realist.

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

I'm not some sort of right wing capitalist - I'm actually a socialist at heart, but I'm also a realist.

Just like bertie :pac:

ianuss

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/law-business.html

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/law-business.html

Thats great, and it these very kind of measure that are only gained by persistently pushing the burden of the invented debt back & standing firm that we cannot afford to pay in some cases & do not own in other cases this debt. If you did nothing, said nothing & never opposed through protest, politics & public action the capitalists that created this debt would be only delighted to allow you to suffer for years to pay as much as they can collect.

I am a realist, capitalism cannot sustain itself.

BaZmO*

I'm Neo-Liberal Social Capitalist.........and I still don't know what a Tracker Mortgage is.

Is mise le key

BaZmO* wrote: »

I'm Neo-Liberal Social Capitalist......

That puts you in Jeffs party so:pac:

BaZmO* wrote: »

....and I still don't know what a Tracker Mortgage is.

I do, only because its saving me from being fleeced by the bank.

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

the capitalists that created this debt would be only delighted to allow you to suffer for years to pay as much as they can collect.

Get real will you. Capitalists lose out too you know. It's not just a case of the rich getting richer.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123125518158857415.html

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/construction_and_property/article5554017.ece

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

Get real will you. Capitalists lose out too you know. It's not just a case of the rich getting richer.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123125518158857415.html

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/construction_and_property/article5554017.ece

The second link wont work but i am astounded that you can read that article in the way you have, it shows exactly how it is a failure of a system, at the end of it all his 'empire' was built to a point that was built on debt he couldnt repay & took his own life, how is this a civilised way of living, allowing banks to control society so much that it leaves people with what appears no other option when the creditors are moving in to tear it all apart.

In a rare interview last month, Mr. Merckle told the German newspaper Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung he had survived "many so-called stock-market crashes" but that he "couldn't calculate a banking and financial crisis of this dimension."

The entire financial system is beyond repair as it stands, to much false debt has been created & simply cannot be paid.

EDIT: Jesus christ man, just read the second link now, this only serves to reinforce how wrong this fuc.ked up system is, this is the consequence of what debt creation does & the pursuit of endless wealth.

francois

Irish abortion laws breach human rights, court rules

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking11.html

Excellent news and about time too

Is mise le key

francois wrote: »

Irish abortion laws breach human rights, court rules

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking11.html

Excellent news and about time too

Now this is something you put effort into years ago francois, if you & everyone else at that time had not pushed back & made your stand on this issue would it have progressed as far as this now with this ruling?

I think not & demonstrates that despite intransigence from the authoritys at the time only through persistence can change ever become accepted.

*offers hand of congratulations*

stomprockin

Let the abortion debate commence..:pac:

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

The second link wont work but i am astounded that you can read that article in the way you have, it shows exactly how it is a failure of a system, at the end of it all his 'empire' was built to a point that was built on debt he couldnt repay & took his own life, how is this a civilised way of living, allowing banks to control society so much that it leaves people with what appears no other option when the creditors are moving in to tear it all apart.



The entire financial system is beyond repair as it stands, to much false debt has been created & simply cannot be paid.

EDIT: Jesus christ man, just read the second link now, this only serves to reinforce how wrong this fuc.ked up system is, this is the consequence of what debt creation does & the pursuit of endless wealth.

With regards to the bit in bold; that's just your opinion. There are people far far more qualified than you or I who disagree with it too. And it's also a statement that you can't back up.

My point was that lots of people are affected, not just the poor working man. Yes, the system has flaws but the positives far outweigh the negatives. You complain about fictional interest rates and imaginary debt - but these are things which drive humans, and have helped massively in the evolution of modern society.

While we might all wish for some sort of utopian society - it ain't gonna happen. Any utopian aspirations you may have are pure fantasy.

Anyway, I'm not going to clog up the thread anymore, I've said all I'm going to say on the matter.

ianuss

The year in review. Some cool snaps in it

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/2010_in_photos_part_1_of_3.html