You are not a f*cking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing c*nt.

jtsuited

Is mise le key wrote: »

I know i am only picking one point out of a very well thought out & lenghty post and hate when it is done myself so i am not ignoring your other points but in reference to this part above,

Logic would say, if we accept your view of it, that through education we can strive for a more socialist driven society, i am genuinley interested for you to elaborate further exactly how & where to begin this?

yeah no problem. Unfortunately, I've encountered enough planks who have had all the education needed.
It's really not all about education. Cognitive ability is the real issue. And unfortunately, people are just too thick.

There are just too many examples to mention, but here's one or two -

Everyone did probability in the modern Leaving Cert, yet look at the numbers that play the lotto while getting the worst of it (for those not familiar with gambling lingo 'getting the worst of it' means being on the unprofitable end of a wager on an event - played over infinity you will lose).

Leaving cert maths is enough to work out how stupid it is to play the lotto but people do.
A group of humans will act with the intelligence of the absolute average. That's why people who are perfectly smart make bad decisions (like playing the lotto)
I love a gamble myself, but even in my most tilted impulsive moods I have never ever ever been close to tempted to buy a lotto ticket. But I know that's probably because I don't mind being the stick in the mud.

We are social creatures first and foremost, and our collective regression to the mean predestines us to being a bit of thick group.
That's sort of where I think capitalism's strength lies - the division of labour based on intellectual ability.

In a socialist society, you can't really incentivise the smart people to train as surgeons or neuroscientists unless you give them a big payoff compared to what they'd get digging in the fields.
That's why jobs that require huge amounts of work AND intelligence are paid so high, because feck all people could actually do those jobs AND we as a society want the brightest guys doing them.

As an aside (but sort of related):
Our education system is terrible on average and getting worse because sooooo many people who would have been incredible teachers had far better prospects (financially etc) and so didn't go into teaching.
This leads to lower standards of education, and hence lower standards of examination (the leaving cert gets easier every five years).
Then we have to have a lower standard in the third level institutions which leads in turn to weaker graduates......which is what a huge number of employers are complaining about these days.
This all stems from the fact that the incentive for bright people to go into teaching (at every level) is really not there as they could have a far better life doing something else.

In other words, the lack of substantial economic incentives has actually made us less educated. It's these sorts of dynamics that lead me to believe that a socialist system simply won't work.

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

As an aside (but sort of related):
Our education system is terrible on average and getting worse because sooooo many people who would have been incredible teachers had far better prospects (financially etc) and so didn't go into teaching.
This leads to lower standards of education, and hence lower standards of examination (the leaving cert gets easier every five years).
Then we have to have a lower standard in the third level institutions which leads in turn to weaker graduates......which is what a huge number of employers are complaining about these days.
This all stems from the fact that the incentive for bright people to go into teaching (at every level) is really not there as they could have a far better life doing something else.

In other words, the lack of substantial economic incentives has actually made us less educated. It's these sorts of dynamics that lead me to believe that a socialist system simply won't work.

So you think teachers should be paid more?

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

So you think teachers should be paid more?

not the ones now, and we'll have to see how tempting the teacher's wages will be after this here fiscal crisis is over, but in general yeah over the long term.

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

not the ones now, and we'll have to see how tempting the teacher's wages will be after this here fiscal crisis is over, but in general yeah over the long term.

I get the principle of incentivising through higher wages, but if that alone was the solution well then we’d have the best Politicians in world, nevermind Europe.

Aren’t our teachers among the highest paid in Europe anyway?
Part of the problem with poor teaching standards is the Civil Service nature of employment. When was the last time a teacher got sacked for consistent poor performance. I’m sure everyone of us has a story of a teacher that was a mess all throughout our school days yet nothing ever seemed to be done about it. We had one teacher that had absolutely no control over the classroom and it was pure anarchy everyday. In fact, I think he had a nervous breakdown every other year. He’s obviously not cut out for it but AFAIK he’s still teaching. Beggars belief.

There are great teachers out there, it’s just that the system seems to have such a problem getting rid of all the bad ones.

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

I get the principle of incentivising through higher wages, but if that alone was the solution well then we’d have the best Politicians in world, nevermind Europe.

well, the reasons are politicians are sh1te has to do with the electoral and party system......no amount of incentivisation is gonna change the ludicrous system of electing parliament in this country

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

well, the reasons are politicians are sh1te has to do with the electoral and party system......no amount of incentivisation is gonna change the ludicrous system of electing parliament in this country

I get that, but I was making the point that throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution. Look at the Health Service for a prime example.

jtsuited

BaZmO* wrote: »

I get that, but I was making the point that throwing more money at a problem is not always the best solution. Look at the Health Service for a prime example.

yeah, but i'm not suggesting just throwing money at it. I think it should be a properly incentivised system that would actually attract bright people.

I know plenty of smart people that would easily go into teaching but don't because the pay is, comparitively speaking, sh1te.

ianuss

jtsuited wrote: »

well, the reasons are politicians are sh1te has to do with the electoral and party system......no amount of incentivisation is gonna change the ludicrous system of electing parliament in this country

What's wrong with the electoral system here? And what model would you suggest we use?

As for better remuneration packages for teachers - I tink it's agreat idea. You wouldn't necessarily have to give them large basic salaries either. A system of performance related bonuses would work. Setting short and long-term targets and rewarding those that meet the targets.

BaZmO*

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah, but i'm not suggesting just throwing money at it. I think it should be a properly incentivised system that would actually attract bright people.

Well until they weed out the sh1t it would be throwing money at it.

jtsuited wrote: »

I know plenty of smart people that would easily go into teaching but don't because the pay is, comparitively speaking, sh1te.

"Smart" doesn't equate to be a good teacher though.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

yeah, but i'm not suggesting just throwing money at it. I think it should be a properly incentivised system that would actually attract bright people.

I know plenty of smart people that would easily go into teaching but don't because the pay is, comparitively speaking, sh1te.

I think the problem with secondary school teachers is that the HDip is the last refuge of the arts student. They finish their degree and then realize its not worth the paper its written on and continue onto their HDip not out of a love of teaching but a way to get any sort of job.

jtsuited

ianuss wrote: »

What's wrong with the electoral system here? And what model would you suggest we use?
.

People vote on who will get the ring-road built while ignoring fundamental ideological differences. Tis the only reason FF have been elected time and time again.

I suggest we don't use a local representative system (because first of all we're too small to justify it), and vote based on policy alone.

Is mise le key

jtsuited wrote: »

-

Everyone did probability in the modern Leaving Cert, yet look at the numbers that play the lotto while getting the worst of it (for those not familiar with gambling lingo 'getting the worst of it' means being on the unprofitable end of a wager on an event - played over infinity you will lose).

A motto of my brothers, which i have also adopted, is when people spin out the old line,

'If your not in you cant win'

He responds,

'If im not in i cant lose'

I will by a lottery ticket once in every blue moon when its like 100 million or so but thats it.

jtsuited wrote: »

We are social creatures first and foremost, and our collective regression to the mean predestines us to being a bit of thick group.
That's sort of where I think capitalism's strength lies - the division of labour based on intellectual ability. .

I have looked at the attraction that capitalism must have myself in order to better try & understand its success, from what i see with my own analysis, is a set of processess that are key in all major capitalist organisations that are effective & play on peoples perceptions of status.

The guy who founded Butlins (billy butlin) in england identified one key & simple aspect to business,

'Give a man a title & he will work hard for you'

This idea has permeated into all organisations, like McDonalds for instance, that awards stars to its employees to instill as sense of rank, superiority & acheivement in the workers & incentivising them to aim for the next rung up. This is a very simple example but it is prevalent throughout organisations to different degrees with greater incentives & rewards offered in order to build ranks, structures but with these new positions a sense of superiority & 'more' worth than your employees 'beneath' you.

jtsuited wrote: »

In a socialist society, you can't really incentivise the smart people to train as surgeons or neuroscientists unless you give them a big payoff compared to what they'd get digging in the fields.
That's why jobs that require huge amounts of work AND intelligence are paid so high, because feck all people could actually do those jobs AND we as a society want the brightest guys doing them..

This is where we link the two back into each other & return to your original observation, through education it is possible to make people understand, that peoples perceptions of superiority can actually be in certain circumstances unhealthy mentally in the structure of a business, when they are incentivised to push aside their natural empathy in order to make business decisions for the better of the organisation. In doing this you have naturally intelligent people that have done well & worked into a postion within organisations that become completley brainwashed (i use that lightly in the absense of a better word) into an almost carbon copy of the text book manager/CEO. This becomes amplified to a greater degree the longer you are subjected mentally to the upwardly rewarding structures of the organisation.
This mentality was overcome by Che Guevara who was minister for finance in Cuba when they took power, who still regularly went to cut sugar cane for an hour or two with the people who worked in the fields for this reason, It sent a clear message that everyone was of equal status regardless of position in society or perceived status. So we can add to Billy Butlins view with this,

'Show a man your title does not make you superior & he will work hard for you'

This is where i see the education of how we perceive status, success within organisation & what is accepted as morally correct incentives to success needs to begin in order to change the natural traits of capitalism to disgard empathy towards your fellow humans.

jtsuited wrote: »

This all stems from the fact that the incentive for bright people to go into teaching (at every level) is really not there as they could have a far better life doing something else.

In other words, the lack of substantial economic incentives has actually made us less educated. It's these sorts of dynamics that lead me to believe that a socialist system simply won't work.

Alas this also runs contrary to your observation posted in the past,

jtsuited - 19/11/2010 wrote:

One of the greatest failings of Irish Universities was letting them becoming essentially trade guilds and training institutions. So many of the conceptual principles of the university education have been neglected by people who look at university as a place to get trained for a job. That is entirely not what a university is, almost by definition.

It appears that even academia has become overhauled by the pursuit of material gain instead of the expansion of education & thinking as the goal.

ianuss

jtsuited wrote: »

People vote on who will get the ring-road built while ignoring fundamental ideological differences. Tis the only reason FF have been elected time and time again.

I suggest we don't use a local representative system (because first of all we're too small to justify it), and vote based on policy alone.

I'm not sure if that's the fault of proportional representation though. It's a result of people voting purely out of self-interest. Our electoral system is one of the most democratic systems in the world.

Android 666

ianuss wrote: »

Our electoral system is one of the most democratic systems in the world.

Which I used to think was a major plus but the more I think about its a major pain in the arse. It means coalition governments with an unnatural amount of power being handed to independents to see their pet projects completed in their local areas. It means a fractured mess of parties with no real agenda and a load of down the centre policies created to enhance the party's popularity and not for the economic or social good of the country. I'm starting to desire a first pass the post electoral system here…

jtsuited

ianuss wrote: »

I'm not sure if that's the fault of proportional representation though. It's a result of people voting purely out of self-interest. Our electoral system is one of the most democratic systems in the world.

Our contituencies are so tiny that pulling a few strings to get a new prefab on a school or a road fixed gets you elected.
That's what needs to be stopped. A properly run government would run a country in such a way that these things would be done anyway.

Our politicians don't govern, mostly they are local lobbyists. The whole thing needs to be reworked to stop this.
Unfortunately we'll have people all saying 'government should be local' not realising that in a country this small, any governing from Dublin is in realistic terms, 'local'.

ianuss

Difficult to argue with either Android or JT's points.

BaZmO*

Is mise le key wrote: »

The guy who founded Butlins (billy butlin) in england

Didn't he used to post here? Although I think he got banned for winding people up.

Is mise le key

BaZmO* wrote: »

Didn't he used to post here? Although I think he got banned for winding people up.

Close but not quite,

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65815040&postcount=93

Actually think that could go in for Post of the year.

ianuss

Is mise le key wrote: »

when they are incentivised to push aside their natural empathy in order to make business decisions for the better of the organisation. In doing this you have naturally intelligent people that have done well & worked into a postion within organisations that become completley brainwashed (i use that lightly in the absense of a better word) into an almost carbon copy of the text book manager/CEO. This becomes amplified to a greater degree the longer you are subjected mentally to the upwardly rewarding structures of the organisation.

Just with regards to the above. Company directors run companies. And directors work on behalf of the shareholders who own the company. The directors have to act in the compnany's best interests - it's regulated by Company Law. It's nothing to do with brainwashing, conditioning, corporate culture or anything like that. Failure to do so would be a breach of both statutory and fiduciary duties as a director.

jtsuited

fiduciary is a shweeeet word.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

fiduciary is a shweeeet word.

Nah, it sounds like a medical complaint:

Jesus I'm in bits. I can't sit down or nothing… I've got an anal fiduciary and it's horrible!

ianuss

jtsuited wrote: »

fiduciary is a shweeeet word.

BaZmO*

Android 666 wrote: »

Nah, it sounds like a medical complaint:

Jesus I'm in bits. I can't sit down or nothing… I've got an anal fiduciary and it's horrible!

fiduciary doodies

joker77

http://www.theonion.com/articles/mark-zuckerberg-gotta-hand-it-to-the-little-****er,18633/

2010 was a landmark year for Zuckerberg: He watched his net worth surpass that of Steve Jobs and of Rupert Murdoch, while also expanding his online empire to include geo-location services, high-res photo-sharing, and enhanced personalization features, all of which just proved that the redheaded little dickface has really got our number and will always have us lining up and begging for more. Goddammit.

Zascar

Hahaha I saw The Social Network the other night and actually really enjoyed it, was nothing like what I was expecting. He's a serious d1ick for fukking over his mates etc - but a bit of a legend in other ways

ED E

FFS.

DP + Tron + Monster are releasing headphones complete with flashing lights with a €200 price tag. :rolleyes:

ianuss

Sale on at WPP for a few days

http://www.whatpeopleplay.com/?redirect=/news_events/detail/2915

francois

jtsuited wrote: »

Unfortunately we'll have people all saying 'government should be local' not realising that in a country this small, any governing from Dublin is in realistic terms, 'local'.

That is the main problem with so many TD's in small multi-seat constituencies-these should be much larger. with less members in the Dail. Furthermore, there should be proper local government-councils have no significant power so everyone goes to the TD (except dodgy developers who just loved the only real power councillors had-planning)

Is mise le key

Thought this was an amazing pic despite not agreeing with the war being waged, it is what you expect to see in a hollywood film, Helicopter rescue, afghanistan, 2004.

ianuss

Kids say the funniest things......http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ldp6adasgu1qzh5gno1_500.jpg