You are not a f*cking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing c*nt.

joker77

ianuss wrote: »

Well ye, that's what I mean. I would continue to pay lip-service to the church and have my kids baptised.

I mean, I hate organised religion and I have zero time for the church. But at the same time, I wouldn't like my kids to miss out on anything.

edit; just look at the FAQ section on 'Consequences of defection'. I would be just as happy to avoid any of that hassle http://www.countmeout.ie/faq/

Again, I thought about this, but there was no way anyway any child of mine would be baptised.

I'm prepared to take a stand on it, if a school isn't going to let my kid in because they aren't baptised, I sure as hell don't want to be sending the child there in the first place.

Think of all our recent immigrants? Where are they going to school?

The schools argument is a bit soft. It's scaremongering to think your child can't get an education in this country if they're not baptised as a Catholic. Scaremongering, and more than a little silly.

ianuss

joker77 wrote: »

Again, I thought about this, but there was no way anyway any child of mine would be baptised.

I'm prepared to take a stand on it, if a school isn't going to let my kid in because they aren't baptised, I sure as hell don't want to be sending the child there in the first place.

Think of all our recent immigrants? Where are they going to school?

The schools argument is a bit soft. It's scaremongering to think your child can't get an education in this country if they're not baptised as a Catholic. Scaremongering, and more than a little silly.

It's not that I think they won't get an education. I know they will. It's just a question of limiting your choices.

For me, I don't give a sh1t about the church or religion. Religion has zero influence in my life. So I just think, anything for an easy life. It's not like I'll be raising my kids as Catholics or anything. Basically, I just weighed up the pro's and con's and came to a pragmatic decision. I mean, whether I remain in the church or not, my life will stay the exact same - but my kids may be affected, that's all.

Scubadevils

Our daugher is 6 and in senior infants in a Catholic school - the choices for schools where we live are pretty limited and the local Catholic/National school was considered by far the best. She was not baptised and still got into the school no problem. The issue we are faced with however is when it comes to Communion as she can't without having been baptised... how the hell do you explain to a 6 year old girl that she can't wear a pretty white dress and collect money from relatives??? Its a genuine dilemma we have at home... she is already talking about communion and quite excited about the idea so its really difficult to know what to do... my wife is leaning towards getting her baptised and I think we will have to, its a bloody disgrace the grip the church still has on this country.

ianuss

Scubadevils wrote: »

Our daugher is 6 and in senior infants in a Catholic school - the choices for schools where we live are pretty limited and the local Catholic/National school was considered by far the best. She was not baptised and still got into the school no problem. The issue we are faced with however is when it comes to Communion as she can't without having been baptised... how the hell do you explain to a 6 year old girl that she can't wear a pretty white dress and collect money from relatives??? Its a genuine dilemma we have at home... she is already talking about communion and quite excited about the idea so its really difficult to know what to do... my wife is leaning towards getting her baptised and I think we will have to, its a bloody disgrace the grip the church still has on this country.

That's a sh1tty situation alright. And that's kind of my point really. While we might not want to have anything to do with the church, unfortunately so much of Irish culture is religious based that our decisions can adversly affect our kids. And that's not something anybody wants.

Scubadevils

ianuss wrote: »

That's a sh1tty situation alright. And that's kind of my point really. While we might not want to have anything to do with the church, unfortunately so much of Irish culture is religious based that our decisions can adversly affect our kids. And that's not something anybody wants.

Absolutely, and although many people have chosen to not be a part of the Catholic church, you find later in life that really you have little choice - there is no way I would see my daugher heartbroken and try explain that Mammy and Daddy have no time for religion!

There is an educate together school near us and the research we did on that suggested that a large % of the kids had very little english, that was our alternative in a Dublin suburb in 2009.

I swear, it makes me so fcking angry the grip those cvnts still have on this country. Up to having kids it was my choice not to go to mass and pay no attention to the church except for the odd funeral here and there - and when at those it reminded me of why as a kid in school I chose to pay zero attention to some bloke in fancy dress up on an altar telling us about some random dude called Jesus who lived a couple of thousand years ago.

ianuss

Scubadevils wrote: »

I swear, it makes me so fcking angry the grip those cvnts still have on this country.

And I'd say there's very little chance of that changing in either yours or your daughters lifetime

joker77

Scubadevils wrote: »

Our daugher is 6 and in senior infants in a Catholic school - the choices for schools where we live are pretty limited and the local Catholic/National school was considered by far the best. She was not baptised and still got into the school no problem. The issue we are faced with however is when it comes to Communion as she can't without having been baptised... how the hell do you explain to a 6 year old girl that she can't wear a pretty white dress and collect money from relatives??? Its a genuine dilemma we have at home... she is already talking about communion and quite excited about the idea so its really difficult to know what to do... my wife is leaning towards getting her baptised and I think we will have to, its a bloody disgrace the grip the church still has on this country.

That's a tough situation alright. From experience of couples that I know, it's usually the mother who chooses what's taught to the kids in terms of religion. When my time comes around, if I have to send them to a Catholic school I will, but they won't brought up Catholic and will be told as much, I know it's not an easy thing for a kid to understand - but no baptism means no communion

Scubadevils

ianuss wrote: »

And I'd say there's very little chance of that changing in either yours or your daughters lifetime

Indeed, an unfortunate reality.

joker77

Scubadevils wrote: »

I swear, it makes me so fcking angry the grip those cvnts still have on this country. Up to having kids it was my choice not to go to mass and pay no attention to the church except for the odd funeral here and there - and when at those it reminded me of why as a kid in school I chose to pay zero attention to some bloke in fancy dress up on an altar telling us about some random dude called Jesus who lived a couple of thousand years ago.

I totally agree. This is the main reason why I see it as my duty and my responsibility as a citizen of this country to officially declare I'm not a Catholic, and my children won't be brought up this way.

It won't change unless people like us start MAKING that change.

Scubadevils

joker77 wrote: »

That's a tough situation alright. From experience of couples that I know, it's usually the mother who chooses what's taught to the kids in terms of religion. When my time comes around, if I have to send them to a Catholic school I will, but they won't brought up Catholic and will be told as much, I know it's not an easy thing for a kid to understand - but no baptism means no communion

Before I had kids with my very anti-catholic view I would have said the same thing - believe me though and I don't mean this in a patronising way, its very different when it comes to what might hurt and potentially damage your child to what your beliefs are - my kids are much more important to me than my beliefs on something such as the church - there is more damage to a 6 year old in telling her that she can't do what all of her friends are doing... that could lead to bullying, feelings of less worth etc etc - a 6 year old will not understand the reasons why their parents want them to be 'different'. My view now is that we don't have any other choice for the moment - she is an intelligent child (I'm her Dad ) and when she is older she will understand and can make her own mind up - which at that point will absolutely be heavily influenced by me! But for now I can't force adult beliefs that have been formed over many years on to a child that can't possibly understand.

Seriously, this time 12 months you will be back on here telling us how if a priest said chop off your arm so as not to harm your child, you'd be rolling up your sleeve and asking whether to use a hack saw or bread knife!

joker77

Scubadevils wrote: »

Before I had kids with my very anti-catholic view I would have said the same thing - believe me though and I don't mean this in a patronising way, its very different when it comes to what might hurt and potentially damage your child to what your beliefs are - my kids are much more important to me than my beliefs on something such as the church - there is more damage to a 6 year old in telling her that she can't do what all of her friends are doing... that could lead to bullying, feelings of less worth etc etc - a 6 year old will not understand the reasons why their parents want them to be 'different'. My view now is that we don't have any other choice for the moment - she is an intelligent child (I'm her Dad ) and when she is older she will understand and can make her own mind up - which at that point will absolutely be heavily influenced by me! But for now I can't force adult beliefs that have been formed over many years on to a child that can't possibly understand.

Seriously, this time 12 months you will be back on here telling us how if a priest said chop off your arm so as not to harm your child, you'd be rolling up your sleeve and asking whether to use a hack saw or bread knife!

I hear ya - I'm speaking from a position of ignorance and I can't really preach what to do (excuse the pun!) until I'm in the same position.

I know there's going to be a lot of arguments with herself about this - she has more or less the same views as me, but I see her wanting any daughter to go to the secondary school she went to which is run by Nuns, tears will be shed over that one...

I know what you're saying about wanting the easiest possible life for your kid - you don't want them an outcast because everyone else in their class is doing it. For me though - what if you were from another religion and you were living in that area? What would you do then? I'm not trying to trivialise it - it's a genuine question. I'm at the stage now where I consider myself a separate religion - it would go against my beliefs to have a child baptised into that faith.

But I know, give me 5 years...

Scubadevils

joker77 wrote: »

I hear ya - I'm speaking from a position of ignorance and I can't really preach what to do (excuse the pun!) until I'm in the same position.

I know there's going to be a lot of arguments with herself about this - she has more or less the same views as me, but I see her wanting any daughter to go to the secondary school she went to which is run by Nuns, tears will be shed over that one...

I know what you're saying about wanting the easiest possible life for your kid - you don't want them an outcast because everyone else in their class is doing it. For me though - what if you were from another religion and you were living in that area? What would you do then? I'm not trying to trivialise it - it's a genuine question. I'm at the stage now where I consider myself a separate religion - it would go against my beliefs to have a child baptised into that faith.

But I know, give me 5 years...

I don't even consider myself to be a separate religion, I have zero belief in religion to start with and that will never change. The harsh reality is that Ireland is dominated by Catholicism and the majority of people in any given area are either practicing or non-practicing Catholics - I'd even bet that many now who don't consider themselves to be Catholic are likely to hover towards the church again when they are nearing the end and worrying about the possibility of being turned away from the big white gates...

Its a very difficult question to answer that being if I were another religion - first of all you'd have to consider the set of values etc that the religion holds, their beliefs and many other questions would be posed as a result in terms of where you educate your children. For now, its simply easier to let them tow the line in these younger years - once they hit secondary school their brains really begin to question anyway - I went to a Presentation Brothers school for several years and we had great fun slagging the fat brothers wandering around, any respect for them went the 1st day of 1st year... plus my parents were both quite anti-Catholicism and never pushed me to go to mass or anything else... I still went through the various communion, confirmation etc motions - but in later life, for me as an adult I didn't get married in a Catholic church and never go to mass, nor will I ever again... except where required!

jtsuited

The ONLY reason the church STILL has the grip it has is because people like Scuba are willing to pay lip service for the sake of their children. I'm sorry but it's true.

Tell your daughter her classmates are morons that believe in nonsense fairytales. That's not you enforcing your beliefs on her, that's stating a fact.

jtsuited

Scubadevils wrote: »

I still went through the various communion, confirmation etc motions - but in later life, for me as an adult I didn't get married in a Catholic church and never go to mass, nor will I ever again... except where required!

that's all the church need you to do in order to claim that they are still relevant.
Weekly church attendance means nothing. Baptisms, communions, and confirmations is where they get their power.

ianuss

jtsuited wrote: »

The ONLY reason the church STILL has the grip it has is because people like Scuba are willing to pay lip service for the sake of their children. I'm sorry but it's true.

Tell your daughter her classmates are morons that believe in nonsense fairytales. That's not you enforcing your beliefs on her, that's stating a fact.

That's a lot easier said than done though.

Zascar

What do you guys think of WikiLeaks? Saw this doco the other day http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/wikirebels/ - really interesting. I love the way Julien Assange was originally a hacker - turned political activist.

I do think its a good thing that certain atrocities are being exposed and so hopefully might be less likely to happen again, but there are also big risks since releasing certain secrets can have very bad repercussions.

joker77

Scubadevils wrote: »

I don't even consider myself to be a separate religion, I have zero belief in religion to start with and that will never change. The harsh reality is that Ireland is dominated by Catholicism and the majority of people in any given area are either practicing or non-practicing Catholics - I'd even bet that many now who don't consider themselves to be Catholic are likely to hover towards the church again when they are nearing the end and worrying about the possibility of being turned away from the big white gates...

Its a very difficult question to answer that being if I were another religion - first of all you'd have to consider the set of values etc that the religion holds, their beliefs and many other questions would be posed as a result in terms of where you educate your children. For now, its simply easier to let them tow the line in these younger years - once they hit secondary school their brains really begin to question anyway - I went to a Presentation Brothers school for several years and we had great fun slagging the fat brothers wandering around, any respect for them went the 1st day of 1st year... plus my parents were both quite anti-Catholicism and never pushed me to go to mass or anything else... I still went through the various communion, confirmation etc motions - but in later life, for me as an adult I didn't get married in a Catholic church and never go to mass, nor will I ever again... except where required!

Yea ok I don't believe in any religion, but I have a belief system (probably secular humanist would be the closest if you want to put a label on it), and I'm staunchly anti-Catholic. I had a conversation with my folks recently (weekly mass going type of Catholics) about my position. My position being that I'm so disgusted at what the Church has done to this country over the years, I'm getting to the point whereby I'm never going to set foot in any Catholic Church again. This means not going to my parents funerals (well the Church part anyways). I'm not a teenager rebelling against them/the church. I know the implications for all of my family - parents and children.

I know what Jeff says sounds very harsh, and it is, but it's the truth. I've softened my position a little - I will go and sit in a Church for a couples wedding, a funeral, nothing else though. It's up to our generation to make the change away from the Church, and try to wrestle the education system from them.

The problem, as I see it, goes back to land. They have it. As a country we're broke, we couldn't afford to buy the schools from them. There is a problem there, but there has to be a solution.

joker77

jtsuited wrote: »

Tell your daughter her classmates are morons that believe in nonsense fairytales. That's not you enforcing your beliefs on her, that's stating a fact.

Ah c'mon now - really?

You need to teach a child, first and foremost, respect of other people - whatever their beliefs. The world is fúcked otherwise.

ianuss

joker77 wrote: »

I will go and sit in a Church for a couples wedding, a funeral, nothing else though. It's up to our generation to make the change away from the Church, and try to wrestle the education system from them.

That 'weddings & funerals' stance sums up me too. Fair play to you if you want to go further and not have your kids baptised. Like Scuba says, it'll be interesting to see how you feel in a few years. Obviously that's not meant to sound patronising, I don't even have kids myself.

Whether I'm a member of the church or not, it doesn't really make a jot of difference to me. And for the most part, kids are too young to fully understand it anyway. They're just going along for the ride with their mates.

jtsuited

joker77 wrote: »

Ah c'mon now - really?

You need to teach a child, first and foremost, respect of other people - whatever their beliefs. The world is fúcked otherwise.

First thing I'll teach my kids is that reason and logic are more important than any fairytale. And that just because everyone around them hold silly beliefs, doesn't mean they have to feel isolated. I want my kids to be the voice of dissenting reason everytime someone starts spouting bullsh1t.

I don't want my kids growing up in a world where everyone moans and bitches about how stupid religion is, but tries to keep the peace by letting them be baptised and indoctrinated into that nonsense.

SuprSi

Zascar wrote: »

What do you guys think of WikiLeaks? Saw this doco the other day http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/wikirebels/ - really interesting. I love the way Julien Assange was originally a hacker - turned political activist.

I do think its a good thing that certain atrocities are being exposed and so hopefully might be less likely to happen again, but there are also big risks since releasing certain secrets can have very bad repercussions.

Big fan of the idea, of how it's stirring the government up in the US and showing how far their reach actually goes (and as a result showing how scared they are of it), but have to confess to not actually reading much of what was released. I agree that having these secrets out in the open should mean they're less likely to happen and some of them need to be heard, such as how the Vatican were upset with the Murphy tribunal, basically showing that they cared more about keeping secrets or protecting its reputation than the victims.

I'm also amazed at the lengths some sections are willing to go to get Assange back to the US. It's hard to see the allegations against him as anything other than a smear campaign too. Must check out that documentary though.

seannash

jtsuited wrote: »

First thing I'll teach my kids is that reason and logic are more important than any fairytale. And that just because everyone around them hold silly beliefs, doesn't mean they have to feel isolated. I want my kids to be the voice of dissenting reason everytime someone starts spouting bullsh1t.

I don't want my kids growing up in a world where everyone moans and bitches about how stupid religion is, but tries to keep the peace by letting them be baptised and indoctrinated into that nonsense.

ah jeff i bet your heart will melt when you have kids and you might give in.:)

you almost sound like you wouldnt entertain the santa/toothfairy/easter bunny ideas either.
coincidently,i know the fella who owns that countmeout site.lived in my street growing up

joker77

seannash wrote: »

ah jeff i bet your heart will melt when you have kids and you might give in.:)

you almost sound like you wouldnt entertain the santa/toothfairy/easter bunny ideas either.
coincidently,i know the fella who owns that countmeout site.lived in my street growing up

You raise an interesting point there Sean. Jeff - with your stance on fairlytales - does this mean your kids don't get read any fairytales? Do they get told Santa doesn't exist as soon as they can learn about him?

jtsuited

seannash wrote: »

ah jeff i bet your heart will melt when you have kids and you might give in.:)

you almost sound like you wouldnt entertain the santa/toothfairy/easter bunny ideas either.

funny you bring that up actually, as I have no problem correcting young kids on supernatural explanations for things like thunder (they find the idea that clouds get electrically charged and go bang far more interesting than God moving the furniture about).
But when they talk about santa etc. I go along with it for the simple fact that I think it is what it is. A fairytale told to kids that they'll enjoy while they're gullible enough to believe it.
Unfortunately, religion isn't such a benign entity.

seannash

jtsuited wrote: »

funny you bring that up actually, as I have no problem correcting young kids on supernatural explanations for things like thunder (they find the idea that clouds get electrically charged and go bang far more interesting than God moving the furniture about).
But when they talk about santa etc. I go along with it for the simple fact that I think it is what it is. A fairytale told to kids that they'll enjoy while they're gullible enough to believe it.
Unfortunately, religion isn't such a benign entity.

ah i know what you mean man,they are harmeless but santa is always gonna be linked with religion(jesus birthday etc)

personally i dont see the harm in letting kids believe the fairytale of god in order to celebrate communion and confirmation.after that they are old enough to know the truth

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

First thing I'll teach my kids is that reason and logic are more important than any fairytale. And that just because everyone around them hold silly beliefs, doesn't mean they have to feel isolated. I want my kids to be the voice of dissenting reason everytime someone starts spouting bullsh1t.

They'll probably rebel against you in their teenage years and become hardline Mormons...

Is mise le key

jtsuited wrote: »

funny you bring that up actually, as I have no problem correcting young kids on supernatural explanations for things like thunder (they find the idea that clouds get electrically charged and go bang far more interesting than God moving the furniture about).
But when they talk about santa etc. I go along with it for the simple fact that I think it is what it is. A fairytale told to kids that they'll enjoy while they're gullible enough to believe it.
Unfortunately, religion isn't such a benign entity.

Well my little fella said during only the recent snow when i was around at a friends house & the snow had actually stopped, we went out to the garden & the snow was falling in tiny little flakes from a big tree, i said to him that it is a magic tree that snows all the time, he replied to me,

'no dont be silly'

Then my friend said,

'Yes dont be silly snow is when the rain clouds get very cold they turn to snow before they fall, its just falling from the tree'

My little fella replied,

'No santa sends it here & makes it fall'

'Of course he does, arent we silly':D

Is mise le key

jtsuited wrote: »

A fairytale told to kids that they'll enjoy while they're gullible enough to believe it.
Unfortunately, religion isn't such a benign entity.

I have to point out jeff that i think your probably the only person i have ever met that describes the magic of Santa etc to kids like,

'enjoy while they're gullible enough to believe it.'

Gullible!!!......Say its gonna a be a real barrel of laughs around your gaff when the kids arive:D

BaZmO*

Ah Jeff is still a young middle class rebel with a lot of growing up to do. I'm sure he'll soften with age. His fight power rants are quite endearing though.

jonnny68

Scubadevils wrote: »

I don't even consider myself to be a separate religion, I have zero belief in religion to start with and that will never change. The harsh reality is that Ireland is dominated by Catholicism and the majority of people in any given area are either practicing or non-practicing Catholics - I'd even bet that many now who don't consider themselves to be Catholic are likely to hover towards the church again when they are nearing the end and worrying about the possibility of being turned away from the big white gates...

Its a very difficult question to answer that being if I were another religion - first of all you'd have to consider the set of values etc that the religion holds, their beliefs and many other questions would be posed as a result in terms of where you educate your children. For now, its simply easier to let them tow the line in these younger years - once they hit secondary school their brains really begin to question anyway - I went to a Presentation Brothers school for several years and we had great fun slagging the fat brothers wandering around, any respect for them went the 1st day of 1st year... plus my parents were both quite anti-Catholicism and never pushed me to go to mass or anything else... I still went through the various communion, confirmation etc motions - but in later life, for me as an adult I didn't get married in a Catholic church and never go to mass, nor will I ever again... except where required!

My religion is and has been for over 20 years...

Church of Acid House :pac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jggR2nQCM