You are not a f*cking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing c*nt.

VinylJunkie

jtsuited wrote: »

First thing I'll teach my kids is that reason and logic are more important than any fairytale. And that just because everyone around them hold silly beliefs, doesn't mean they have to feel isolated. I want my kids to be the voice of dissenting reason everytime someone starts spouting bullsh1t.

I don't want my kids growing up in a world where everyone moans and bitches about how stupid religion is, but tries to keep the peace by letting them be baptised and indoctrinated into that nonsense.

What about Santy? will you ruin their Christmas experience also? Come on Jeff as a kid I didn't care about religion, I cared about my communion and confirmation money, that is all!

I don't have any religious beliefs at the minute. I can see why the older generation still hold onto faith and will do for the foreseeable future as faith is all the majority of the older generation are left with. Not to mention the social benefits of heading to church on a Sunday morning.

edit that: I just read your response to a santy comment!

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

The ONLY reason the church STILL has the grip it has is because people like Scuba are willing to pay lip service for the sake of their children. I'm sorry but it's true.

Tell your daughter her classmates are morons that believe in nonsense fairytales. That's not you enforcing your beliefs on her, that's stating a fact.

Talking through your mid 20s hole - I'm sorry but its true, I once spoke through my mid 20s hole too, now I speak through my mid 30s hole - it gains knowledge with age & experience though. By your logic you should be taking a stand against the Catholic church and putting together some sort of placard and protesting outside Church on a Sunday morning - but no, people like Jeff are still in bed!

I would have said the same thing before I had kids, and believe me I am likely to have more reason than many here to hate the Catholic church - thankfully I didn't get abused by them but our family was hurt very hard by their beliefs and methods... not something I'm going to get into but trust me, I've good reason to have issues with them and was absolutely against sending our kids to a Catholic school, circumstances prevailed however and we had to make the right choice for the good of our kids - which as I've said, is considerably more important right now than my views on the church.

To suggest you say to a 6 year old child that the rest of the classroom and their teacher is a moron or any other term that belittles them is absolutely ridiculous. As has been said, you may as well also tell them to shut up talking about fairies, pixies, Santa etc. I will be more than happy to ridicule the whole farce that is Catholicism and religion as a whole when my kids are at an age that I deem old enough to discuss something like that with them... for now it can be lumped in with Santa and the pixies.

Finally - in contrast to what I said earlier, in reality the grip is actually far less, the difference now in 'Catholic Ireland' to that of even when I was in school is massive, let alone when my parents or grandparents were... their power is absolutely diminishing slowly but surely, it would have been pretty unheard of 40 years ago to get married by way of a civil ceremony and seriously frowned upon. Divorce is relatively new, contraception etc. They can't abuse with impunity the way it was possible in the past.

Finally finally :pac: anyone who went to a Catholic school in the last 20 years or so will know that pretty much everything was taken with a pinch of salt in terms of religion and you just got a buzz off it all... we had great fun slagging the brothers as I mentioned earlier.

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

that's all the church need you to do in order to claim that they are still relevant.
Weekly church attendance means nothing. Baptisms, communions, and confirmations is where they get their power.

Ha! - Have you ever been to mass on a Sunday? The weekly collection? - Surely they gather a reasonable few quid from already broke pensioners? I assume that is still done anyway.

Also weddings, funerals etc pay quite well when the folks involved are Catholic - ah hand aul Fr Murphy a couple of hundred quid for the lovely ceremony.

Scubadevils

jonnny68 wrote: »

My religion is and has been for over 20 years...

Church of Acid House :pac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8jggR2nQCM

Ah I thought the link was going to bring me here for some reason...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-ScoFicBg

jonnny68

Scubadevils wrote: »

Ah I thought the link was going to bring me here for some reason...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw-ScoFicBg

deadly,love it

Is mise le key

Scubadevils wrote: »

Talking through your mid 20s hole - I'm sorry but its true, I once spoke through my mid 20s hole too, now I speak through my mid 30s hole - it gains knowledge with age & experience though. By your logic you should be taking a stand against the Catholic church and putting together some sort of placard and protesting outside Church on a Sunday morning - but no, people like Jeff are still in bed!

I would have said the same thing before I had kids, and believe me I am likely to have more reason than many here to hate the Catholic church - thankfully I didn't get abused by them but our family was hurt very hard by their beliefs and methods... not something I'm going to get into but trust me, I've good reason to have issues with them and was absolutely against sending our kids to a Catholic school, circumstances prevailed however and we had to make the right choice for the good of our kids - which as I've said, is considerably more important right now than my views on the church.

To suggest you say to a 6 year old child that the rest of the classroom and their teacher is a moron or any other term that belittles them is absolutely ridiculous. As has been said, you may as well also tell them to shut up talking about fairies, pixies, Santa etc. I will be more than happy to ridicule the whole farce that is Catholicism and religion as a whole when my kids are at an age that I deem old enough to discuss something like that with them... for now it can be lumped in with Santa and the pixies.

Finally - in contrast to what I said earlier, in reality the grip is actually far less, the difference now in 'Catholic Ireland' to that of even when I was in school is massive, let alone when my parents or grandparents were... their power is absolutely diminishing slowly but surely, it would have been pretty unheard of 40 years ago to get married by way of a civil ceremony and seriously frowned upon. Divorce is relatively new, contraception etc. They can't abuse with impunity the way it was possible in the past.

Finally finally :pac: anyone who went to a Catholic school in the last 20 years or so will know that pretty much everything was taken with a pinch of salt in terms of religion and you just got a buzz off it all... we had great fun slagging the brothers as I mentioned earlier.

While i agree with 99% of what you said scuba, i wont lump it in with Santa & the rest, my eldest lad knows 100% i dont beleive in it & i label it as fairy stories, however i wont allow him to belittle anyone for their beleifs, if thats your thing thats your thing but it wont be entertained in my gaff as eventually the kids will find out about santa etc but the Church will always be there so i dont think it helps to somehow justify it when they are younger as just another fairy tale but this one doesnt then go away.

Scubadevils

Is mise le key wrote: »

While i agree with 99% of what you said scuba, i wont lump it in with Santa & the rest, my eldest lad knows 100% i dont beleive in it & i label it as fairy stories, however i wont allow him to belittle anyone for their beleifs, if thats your thing thats your thing but it wont be entertained in my gaff as eventually the kids will find out about santa etc but the Church will always be there so i dont think it helps to somehow justify it when they are younger as just another fairy tale but this one doesnt then go away.

Ah no I agree with you there - being a bit broad in my description I guess of Santa, Jesus & fairy tales! I suppose what I should say is that they reach an age where they can reason for themselves between what they deem as real or not, assisted by parents, teachers etc and form their own view of the world. Obviously at the same time we as parents teach them not to belittle others beliefs, absolutely agree with that.

BaZmO*

Scubadevils wrote: »

... we had great fun slagging the brothers as I mentioned earlier.

Racist!

Scubadevils

BaZmO* wrote: »

Racist!

Nah I'm sorry but its not registering. My head is spinning from 2 whole days of work and my brain has pretty much stopped functioning.

Edit!!! - Ah...

joker77

Scubadevils wrote: »

Talking through your mid 20s hole - I'm sorry but its true, I once spoke through my mid 20s hole too, now I speak through my mid 30s hole - it gains knowledge with age & experience though. By your logic you should be taking a stand against the Catholic church and putting together some sort of placard and protesting outside Church on a Sunday morning - but no, people like Jeff are still in bed!

I would have said the same thing before I had kids, and believe me I am likely to have more reason than many here to hate the Catholic church - thankfully I didn't get abused by them but our family was hurt very hard by their beliefs and methods... not something I'm going to get into but trust me, I've good reason to have issues with them and was absolutely against sending our kids to a Catholic school, circumstances prevailed however and we had to make the right choice for the good of our kids - which as I've said, is considerably more important right now than my views on the church.

To suggest you say to a 6 year old child that the rest of the classroom and their teacher is a moron or any other term that belittles them is absolutely ridiculous. As has been said, you may as well also tell them to shut up talking about fairies, pixies, Santa etc. I will be more than happy to ridicule the whole farce that is Catholicism and religion as a whole when my kids are at an age that I deem old enough to discuss something like that with them... for now it can be lumped in with Santa and the pixies.

Finally - in contrast to what I said earlier, in reality the grip is actually far less, the difference now in 'Catholic Ireland' to that of even when I was in school is massive, let alone when my parents or grandparents were... their power is absolutely diminishing slowly but surely, it would have been pretty unheard of 40 years ago to get married by way of a civil ceremony and seriously frowned upon. Divorce is relatively new, contraception etc. They can't abuse with impunity the way it was possible in the past.

Finally finally :pac: anyone who went to a Catholic school in the last 20 years or so will know that pretty much everything was taken with a pinch of salt in terms of religion and you just got a buzz off it all... we had great fun slagging the brothers as I mentioned earlier.

Of course your going to do what you think is in the best interest of your child, and with the situation the way it is - for most people that means sending them to a school which is run in part or full by the Catholic church. I don't expect I'll be doing any differently, unless my situation changes drastically over the next few years.

And I totally agree on your point about the slagging, people will make up their own minds - I'd hope to raise a child that had enough independent thought to form their own decisions on what they were hearing.

All that being said though - I'm still sticking to the no baptism / no communion thing. Going to a Catholic school does not mean the child has to be raised and indoctrinated into the Catholic faith. I appreciate again I'm not in the situation yet, but there's something very wrong if everyone in the class has to go through those rituals. In a class of what - 30 kids, these days I'd be highly surprised if there weren't a few of either another religion, or who's parents are lapsed Catholics and they aren't baptised.

I suppose, from my position of ignorance, I'm seeing the issue a little more black and white. And I'm also fully aware that 'her indoors' is going to have more of a say on this matter than I will, when the time comes.

Scubadevils

joker77 wrote: »

Of course your going to do what you think is in the best interest of your child, and with the situation the way it is - for most people that means sending them to a school which is run in part or full by the Catholic church. I don't expect I'll be doing any differently, unless my situation changes drastically over the next few years.

And I totally agree on your point about the slagging, people will make up their own minds - I'd hope to raise a child that had enough independent thought to form their own decisions on what they were hearing.

All that being said though - I'm still sticking to the no baptism / no communion thing. Going to a Catholic school does not mean the child has to be raised and indoctrinated into the Catholic faith. I appreciate again I'm not in the situation yet, but there's something very wrong if everyone in the class has to go through those rituals. In a class of what - 30 kids, these days I'd be highly surprised if there weren't a few of either another religion, or who's parents are lapsed Catholics and they aren't baptised.

I suppose, from my position of ignorance, I'm seeing the issue a little more black and white. And I'm also fully aware that 'her indoors' is going to have more of a say on this matter than I will, when the time comes.

There's the nail on the head... I stuck to my guns longer but was recently convinced of the need in terms of peers etc and I have to agree that its the right thing to do for now.

I would be interested to know alright how many in the class are likely to follow the various Catholic rituals, I'd say the majority though if not all.

Anyway, assuming in 6 odd years that we are all still waffling away here, let me know your views then!

Edit - also, I agree that going to a Catholic school doesn't mean they need to follow the faith, the school know our daughter hasn't been baptised and she has never been to mass with the exception of a funeral and baptism. She is an intelligent child and as soon as possible I will certainly discuss the ins and outs of religion with her, just as my mother did with me at a pretty early age.

Android 666

Our eldest is 6 and our two have been christened. I can't say I really believe in anything - the bride wanted to have the children christened and I was happy enough to go ahead with it; if she had said she didn't want them christened I'd have been happy to go ahead with that. Having the children baptised doesn't automatically make them or us idiots. As they go through school they'll have confirmation and communion and again I have no problem with that. My wife would get some comfort from it. When they're old enough to know my views on it all they will. I can't really play the angry atheist card - it's really not me at all. I grew up in a very conservative, Catholic household and my parents really are of the god-fearing generation. Their religious and political views are the polar opposite to mine. The don't bother much with their views and I don't bother them much with mine. I figure I could spend the time arguing with or enjoy the time I have with them (The are both retirement age and they live 20 miles away from us so I get to see them maybe once a week or forthnight). Now some might argue that I should tell they're morons for believing in a fairytale but I wouldn't have the heart to. It would most likely cause a big riff in the family and I'd rather my kids knew their grandparents.

I'd go to a church for weddings or funerals - I couldn't really see the problem with that. If someone chooses to celebrate their vows in a church that's up to them, get over yourself and be happy for them. If someone I know dies and their funeral is in a church I'm not going to abstain from the church service out of principle. Why would you bother?

joker77

Android 666 wrote: »

Our eldest is 6 and our two have been christened. I can't say I really believe in anything - the bride wanted to have the children christened and I was happy enough to go ahead with it; if she had said she didn't want them christened I'd have been happy to go ahead with that. Having the children baptised doesn't automatically make them or us idiots. As they go through school they'll have confirmation and communion and again I have no problem with that. My wife would get some comfort from it. When they're old enough to know my views on it all they will. I can't really play the angry atheist card - it's really not me at all. I grew up in a very conservative, Catholic household and my parents really are of the god-fearing generation. Their religious and political views are the polar opposite to mine. The don't bother much with their views and I don't bother them much with mine. I figure I could spend the time arguing with or enjoy the time I have with them (The are both retirement age and they live 20 miles away from us so I get to see them maybe once a week or forthnight). Now some might argue that I should tell they're morons for believing in a fairytale but I wouldn't have the heart to. It would most likely cause a big riff in the family and I'd rather my kids knew their grandparents.

I'd go to a church for weddings or funerals - I couldn't really see the problem with that. If someone chooses to celebrate their vows in a church that's up to them, get over yourself and be happy for them. If someone I know dies and their funeral is in a church I'm not going to abstain from the church service out of principle. Why would you bother?

Why I would bother is that my main issue is with the institution.

I've no problem with anyone holding a belief in Jesus Christ being the son of God. I'm not going to fall out with my parents over this, we love each other too much - but it doesn't stop us having a discussion over it. Their point about going to mass is that it's a half hour out of their week for God, allowing them time to reflect. My point is that they're purely conditioned from their upbringing to spend that half hour in a building that is run by what I see as a malevolent force in this country - if it was just about a half hour to God they could take that time at any time during the week and read the bible, or pray. Part of going to mass is about suffering, for their generation, if you ask me.

Now, going back to the malevolent force bit. A bit strong maybe yea, but that's my own personal feelings on the matter. Both myself and herself have uncles who are priests - mine I have very little contact with because I don't see my mother's side of the family that often (don't live near us and kind of lost touch since the grandmother died). Her uncle I've met a few times and have had the pleasure of listening to him on the radio a good bit (you've all probably heard him at once stage or another, he was on George Hook and Vincent Browne's TV show a lot) - he's a lecturer in Philosophy, comes across quite rational on most topics, but not what I'd consider a typical priest, the exception rather than the rule. This is the thing though - with all the scandals that have been going on with the Church in this country and others - I do not believe it's a case of a few bad apples. I think the Church has done more harm than good. That's where my problem comes from with sitting in one of their buildings for a ceremony and showing any kind of validation of their institution. That is why I would bother.

Android 666

joker77 wrote: »

Why I would bother is that my main issue is with the institution.

I've no problem with anyone holding a belief in Jesus Christ being the son of God. I'm not going to fall out with my parents over this, we love each other too much - but it doesn't stop us having a discussion over it. Their point about going to mass is that it's a half hour out of their week for God, allowing them time to reflect. My point is that they're purely conditioned from their upbringing to spend that half hour in a building that is run by what I see as a malevolent force in this country - if it was just about a half hour to God they could take that time at any time during the week and read the bible, or pray. Part of going to mass is about suffering, for their generation, if you ask me.

Now, going back to the malevolent force bit. A bit strong maybe yea, but that's my own personal feelings on the matter. Both myself and herself have uncles who are priests - mine I have very little contact with because I don't see my mother's side of the family that often (don't live near us and kind of lost touch since the grandmother died). Her uncle I've met a few times and have had the pleasure of listening to him on the radio a good bit (you've all probably heard him at once stage or another, he was on George Hook and Vincent Browne's TV show a lot) - he's a lecturer in Philosophy, comes across quite rational on most topics, but not what I'd consider a typical priest, the exception rather than the rule. This is the thing though - with all the scandals that have been going on with the Church in this country and others - I do not believe it's a case of a few bad apples. I think the Church has done more harm than good. That's where my problem comes from with sitting in one of their buildings for a ceremony and showing any kind of validation of their institution. That is why I would bother.

You make some good points. I suppose I only ever saw it as vaildation of the service I was attending (wedding, funeral) and not the institution but I suppose you can't separate the two. It won't really stop me attending either of these two events in the future tbh.

The fact is that the Catholic Church is really on its last legs here. The amount of priests in active service has reduced dramatically. Areas that would have 10 priests in the past now only have maybe 2 if they are lucky. If it continues on now they will have to use lay people or foreign priests - neither will go down too well with the older generations. Civil services are becoming more popular with people and it will soon be seen as the norm for people. It will take a bit more time but it is happening...

joker77

Android 666 wrote: »

You make some good points. I suppose I only ever saw it as vaildation of the service I was attending (wedding, funeral) and not the institution but I suppose you can't separate the two. It won't really stop me attending either of these two events in the future tbh.

And it's probably not going to stop me either. I'm just finding it harder and harder to do it, to reconcile with myself the validation I'm giving them.

Android 666

joker77 wrote: »

And it's probably not going to stop me either. I'm just finding it harder and harder to do it, to reconcile with myself the validation I'm giving them.

Sure didn't even Richard Dawkins do a reading at his nephew or niece's church wedding? Tried googling but can't find it. Sometimes I think its okay to respect the wishes of the couple who's wedding your going to or the person who's funeral you are attending.

BaZmO*

If I was to boycott everything I didn't believe in, or at least had associations with things I didn't believe in, I'm be living a self sufficient life on a farm on an island off the west coast of Kerry.

Sometimes it's ok to support someone without support the institution.

jtsuited

Scubadevils wrote: »

Talking through your mid 20s hole - I'm sorry but its true, I once spoke through my mid 20s hole too, now I speak through my mid 30s hole - it gains knowledge with age & experience though. By your logic you should be taking a stand against the Catholic church and putting together some sort of placard and protesting outside Church on a Sunday morning - but no, people like Jeff are still in bed!

I would have said the same thing before I had kids, and believe me I am likely to have more reason than many here to hate the Catholic church - thankfully I didn't get abused by them but our family was hurt very hard by their beliefs and methods... not something I'm going to get into but trust me, I've good reason to have issues with them and was absolutely against sending our kids to a Catholic school, circumstances prevailed however and we had to make the right choice for the good of our kids - which as I've said, is considerably more important right now than my views on the church.

To suggest you say to a 6 year old child that the rest of the classroom and their teacher is a moron or any other term that belittles them is absolutely ridiculous. As has been said, you may as well also tell them to shut up talking about fairies, pixies, Santa etc. I will be more than happy to ridicule the whole farce that is Catholicism and religion as a whole when my kids are at an age that I deem old enough to discuss something like that with them... for now it can be lumped in with Santa and the pixies.

Finally - in contrast to what I said earlier, in reality the grip is actually far less, the difference now in 'Catholic Ireland' to that of even when I was in school is massive, let alone when my parents or grandparents were... their power is absolutely diminishing slowly but surely, it would have been pretty unheard of 40 years ago to get married by way of a civil ceremony and seriously frowned upon. Divorce is relatively new, contraception etc. They can't abuse with impunity the way it was possible in the past.

Finally finally :pac: anyone who went to a Catholic school in the last 20 years or so will know that pretty much everything was taken with a pinch of salt in terms of religion and you just got a buzz off it all... we had great fun slagging the brothers as I mentioned earlier.

I'm not going to multiquote here because the main thrust of your argument is that it's important for your children's welfare for them to be able to respect the beliefs of the masses and even go along with them.

I might be in my mid-20s, but that's bullsh1t on so so so so many levels. I'm going to say it again.....the reason the church has political power in this country is that people who know it's complete bullsh1t still go along with it wrongly thinking that they're doing it for the sake of their children's welfare.

Saying it's different when you have kids is the exact same as saying 'speaking as a mother' and then following it up with something daft.

And to answer all your predictions of what I'd be like with my kids should I ever have any......
It's ok to tell your kids fairytales/santa etc. because they get to an age where everyone realises it's horsesh1t and end of story.
To tell them the God thing is different because unlike fairytales/santa, wars are started over the God bullsh1t. People die every day. It's not a harmless myth. It's a myth that eventually causes great harm not because of wacko fundamentalists, but because of people who know better hiding behind some cloak of 'tolerance' and 'respect'.

The rise of the New Christian right in the states was 100% responsible for the considerable delay in stem-cell research in the late 90s/early 2000s. But you know what, it was the people who let religious lobby groups anywhere near Washington that really have a lot to answer for.
In the US, where religious 'tolerance' is very very important, wacko fundamentalism in all religions has flourished (nation of islam etc for the other side of the coin), resulting in an actual increase in creationist belief.

If I decide, my kids would be better going to a Catholic school (highly unlikely) , there's no way I'm going to even entertain having them baptised. If the school refuse on those grounds, well I'll see them in court. The reason they still get away with that is that nobody is willing to challenge them. I would gladly like to take a precedent setting case against the Department of Education for putting state-education in the hands of faith-mongerers.

The thing is nowadays with religion, is that nobody in public discourse (in this country) is going to challenge you from the religion side. They know this so they quietly rely on people feeling implicit pressure to go along with it.

As far as telling your children that the rest of their class are morons for believing in that rubbish...........
I work with kids on nearly a daily basis, and the odd time that things come up, I've had absolutely no problem setting kids straight.
For example, you know when the sun is breaking through clouds into rain and you see all those cool beams coming down?
For some reason, younger kids are taught (i'm guessing they're taught considering the amount of times I've heard this lately) that that is dead people going to heaven.
I say 'no it's not', they say 'our teacher said it was', and I say 'your teacher is wrong, go and look it up'.
And you can be guaranteed no matter how much I change by the time I'm in my mid 30s with kids that I'm ever going to stop being like that.

As far as weddings and funerals go, here's where I stand.
For a wedding, two people are getting married which is actually a non-religious universal social occasion (there are very few cultures where marriage doesn't exist) that has of course been hijacked by the church.

I go along, sit down and don't take part in the religious part of the ceremony (which they've been very clever to weave into the actual marriage part).

I think I caused something of a local scandal last week in rural mayo when I didn't stand for the Gospel, etc. or kneel etc.
Has anyone ever given out to me for sittting in a church clearly non-participating in such a solemn occasion of voodoo like nonsense?
Never. In fact, it's normally comments of 'you've some balls doing that, fair play'.

The problem with religion in this country is that it's just a lot less effort to go along with it than make a stand. You might think it's a fight-the-power phase that I'm going through what with being in my mid-20's but in all honesty that's just a handy way of looking at your own hypocrisy.

The fact of the matter is, all our children are better off in a world free of religion, and the only reason they're not going to get that world is because of our failure to take a stand. It's not like you're even going to face any resistance. No reasonable person is going to fight on the side of religion anymore.
Well, unless apparently, they have kids in which case all rationale goes out the window.

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

Sure didn't even Richard Dawkins do a reading at his nephew or niece's church wedding? Tried googling but can't find it. Sometimes I think its okay to respect the wishes of the couple who's wedding your going to or the person who's funeral you are attending.

wedding yes, funeral depends.
I mean the person who died isn't going to be upset by you not being in the church. But then again, depending on family it can get tricky.

I had a good friend die last year and I actually left the church right in the middle of the priest talking bollocks, and waited outside. A good few of my mates followed. We went to the burial etc. but it was actually bloodboiling to see the hijacking the church did of such a tragic event.

I later found out, that if you don't specifically make your wishes known before you die, that if you are a confirmed Catholic you'll be buried as one.
Which winds me up a good bit, because if I were to drop dead today, there's a good chance I'd be given a Catholic funeral.

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm not going to multiquote here because the main thrust of your argument is that it's important for your children's welfare for them to be able to respect the beliefs of the masses and even go along with them.

I might be in my mid-20s, but that's bullsh1t on so so so so many levels. I'm going to say it again.....the reason the church has political power in this country is that people who know it's complete bullsh1t still go along with it wrongly thinking that they're doing it for the sake of their children's welfare.

Saying it's different when you have kids is the exact same as saying 'speaking as a mother' and then following it up with something daft.

And to answer all your predictions of what I'd be like with my kids should I ever have any......
It's ok to tell your kids fairytales/santa etc. because they get to an age where everyone realises it's horsesh1t and end of story.
To tell them the God thing is different because unlike fairytales/santa, wars are started over the God bullsh1t. People die every day. It's not a harmless myth. It's a myth that eventually causes great harm not because of wacko fundamentalists, but because of people who know better hiding behind some cloak of 'tolerance' and 'respect'.

The rise of the New Christian right in the states was 100% responsible for the considerable delay in stem-cell research in the late 90s/early 2000s. But you know what, it was the people who let religious lobby groups anywhere near Washington that really have a lot to answer for.
In the US, where religious 'tolerance' is very very important, wacko fundamentalism in all religions has flourished (nation of islam etc for the other side of the coin), resulting in an actual increase in creationist belief.

If I decide, my kids would be better going to a Catholic school (highly unlikely) , there's no way I'm going to even entertain having them baptised. If the school refuse on those grounds, well I'll see them in court. The reason they still get away with that is that nobody is willing to challenge them. I would gladly like to take a precedent setting case against the Department of Education for putting state-education in the hands of faith-mongerers.

The thing is nowadays with religion, is that nobody in public discourse (in this country) is going to challenge you from the religion side. They know this so they quietly rely on people feeling implicit pressure to go along with it.

As far as telling your children that the rest of their class are morons for believing in that rubbish...........
I work with kids on nearly a daily basis, and the odd time that things come up, I've had absolutely no problem setting kids straight.
For example, you know when the sun is breaking through clouds into rain and you see all those cool beams coming down?
For some reason, younger kids are taught (i'm guessing they're taught considering the amount of times I've heard this lately) that that is dead people going to heaven.
I say 'no it's not', they say 'our teacher said it was', and I say 'your teacher is wrong, go and look it up'.
And you can be guaranteed no matter how much I change by the time I'm in my mid 30s with kids that I'm ever going to stop being like that.

As far as weddings and funerals go, here's where I stand.
For a wedding, two people are getting married which is actually a non-religious universal social occasion (there are very few cultures where marriage doesn't exist) that has of course been hijacked by the church.

I go along, sit down and don't take part in the religious part of the ceremony (which they've been very clever to weave into the actual marriage part).

I think I caused something of a local scandal last week in rural mayo when I didn't stand for the Gospel, etc. or kneel etc.
Has anyone ever given out to me for sittting in a church clearly non-participating in such a solemn occasion of voodoo like nonsense?
Never. In fact, it's normally comments of 'you've some balls doing that, fair play'.

The problem with religion in this country is that it's just a lot less effort to go along with it than make a stand. You might think it's a fight-the-power phase that I'm going through what with being in my mid-20's but in all honesty that's just a handy way of looking at your own hypocrisy.

The fact of the matter is, all our children are better off in a world free of religion, and the only reason they're not going to get that world is because of our failure to take a stand. It's not like you're even going to face any resistance. No reasonable person is going to fight on the side of religion anymore.
Well, unless apparently, they have kids in which case all rationale goes out the window.

I'm not going to multi quote either nor am I going to spend much more time on this - I spend time here for music and some light banter, I really prefer not to get into stuff like this that can't flow as a conversation face to face!

I agree with lots of what you say and agree also that people need to act to make things change, thats why I suggested that you protest outside mass every Sunday. My daughter has come home from school suggesting various things to do with the world that holy god was supposed to have done and I correct her, thats fine and different to excluding her from some silly ceremony - plus I'll discuss what I think she is ready to discuss in terms of her mental development. She also loves documentaries and has sat and watched Walking With Dinosaurs, the BBC Earth series etc with me - she already know lots about how the earth started, early man etc and is very interested in it all.

As I've said and nothing will change my mind on this, for now to simply go through this motion so as not to upset her it is fine, my parents did it with me and by the time of my confirmation I'd made up my own mind that it was all horsesh1t. If there was a workable alternative, I'd gladly take it - and absolutely open to suggestions as so far we've not come up with something that we see as an option. One point actually since Joker made it is that I am going to look into how many others in the class are not catholic and see about approaching their parents to see what they intend - the difficulty I'd say will be finding this out, doubt the school is likely to divulge this info.

Also, I don't think you are any sort of unique rebel for going to mass and not standing for the gospel, going up for communion etc, the few times I've been in a church for weddings, funerals etc over the last couple of years I've seen more and more people just sitting - I've done it for years.

Finally, views do change with age - I was the exact same and had many heated discussions with family 10 years ago that I've changed my mind on somewhat now due to various factors in life.

Anyway, this could be another Coppers style debate and I need to go make the kids some lunch, don't want them hungry on account of a Catholic debate... :pac:

jtsuited

Scubadevils wrote: »

Also, I don't think you are any sort of unique rebel for going to mass and not standing for the gospel, going up for communion etc, the few times I've been in a church for weddings, funerals etc over the last couple of years I've seen more and more people just sitting - I've done it for years.
:

As have I but my point is that every so often you'll do it in a church where you are literally the only one....happened me twice in a row last week.

R.Shackleford

At the risk of lightening the the mood, It has to be said, The Executioner gives a great mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQdIiEUFtqk

jtsuited

Scubadevils wrote: »

If there was a workable alternative, I'd gladly take it - and absolutely open to suggestions as so far we've not come up with something that we see as an option.

First off, it's a bit weird to say I'm talking out of my hole and then actually say you agree with much of what I'm saying.

It comes down to the term 'workable' I think. It's pretty workable to tell a child in a vitally important part of their development that 'people can be really stupid when it comes to certain things and here's why'.

In fact, I'd say that it would do your child the utmost benefit to instill independent thought at such an early age.
I maintain that teaching religion to kids is giving them a lesson in how to think incorrectly. I mean, two of the main cornerstones of religion is the denial of observation, and the rejection of logic.
No amount of documentary watching is going to offset the daily ritual of believing in bullsh1t the child is being taught in school. And not only that, they're being taught that this nonsense is socially acceptable once in the realm of middle-eastern-mythology.

I had a catholic upbringing and I would have been far better without it. 5 years ago I would have said it did me no harm, but I've changed my mind based on two things - the notion of noble suffering and of course, Catholic guilt. Even though i would consider myself a very rational person, I know for a fact that Catholic guilt still exists in my emotional psyche because it was imbued in me from such an early age.

joker77

Any more on this and we'll have to rename the thread to something more fitting...

Android + Scuba - I understand that you're doing what you think is a) in the best interests of your child in the circumstances of living in the society we live in, and b) there's also a bit of keeping the peace at home with the other half - after all it's two people together who have to make the decision on what's best for the child.

JT - Essentially I agree with all that you are saying, but think maybe you're a little over the top in how you're putting your point across, and can see how somebody with kids could get their back up at someone who didn't have kids preaching about how to raise theirs. I'll be in the situation soon enough, and I'd probably react like that...

I had a little chat with the other half about it last night after all this was spinning round in my head. She's more or less of the same opinion, schools are hard to get into sometimes - you have to enroll early - we haven't a clue where we'll be living in 5 years (we're only renting now), so we'll have to wait and see. If the only choice is a Catholic school then so be it, but the child won't be raised a Catholic and won't be getting baptised.

Two of her sisters have kids, both go to the same school. It's a Catholic school, one sister's kids are baptised Catholics, the other's are born again Christian and baptised in that faith, and so are not participating in the Catholic communion. Exceptions have to be made in the school, and I don't think it's the end of the world for the kids not to be doing what most of the rest of the class is. As far as I know, there's a few other kids not getting their communion as well.

acman

joker77 wrote: »

Another request - anyone got any recommendations for a decent spa type hotel in Ireland?

I'm looking for something for a weekend away for a couple, nice location - beautiful scenery, ideally a little isolated, not much to do except take in the surroundings and for herself whatever treatments they offer (maybe for himself too). Not looking for any evening entertainment.

Suggestions?

I was here with the other half for a weekend recently: http://www.rainforest.ie/index_flash.html - I would highly recommend it.

Very nice hotel, spa, massage, the whole works for less than 200 quid. The location is fantastic too, lots of nice scenery it's adjacent to the powerscourt gardens and manor.

Zascar

Wow this is all getting very grown up! Can someone please start talking about boobs or farts or something!

joker77 wrote: »

JT - Essentially I agree with all that you are saying, but think maybe you're a little over the top in how you're putting your point across

That's pretty much what everyone thinks about most of what Jeff says! :pac:

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

First off, it's a bit weird to say I'm talking out of my hole and then actually say you agree with much of what I'm saying.

It comes down to the term 'workable' I think. It's pretty workable to tell a child in a vitally important part of their development that 'people can be really stupid when it comes to certain things and here's why'.

In fact, I'd say that it would do your child the utmost benefit to instill independent thought at such an early age.
I maintain that teaching religion to kids is giving them a lesson in how to think incorrectly. I mean, two of the main cornerstones of religion is the denial of observation, and the rejection of logic.
No amount of documentary watching is going to offset the daily ritual of believing in bullsh1t the child is being taught in school. And not only that, they're being taught that this nonsense is socially acceptable once in the realm of middle-eastern-mythology.

I had a catholic upbringing and I would have been far better without it. 5 years ago I would have said it did me no harm, but I've changed my mind based on two things - the notion of noble suffering and of course, Catholic guilt. Even though i would consider myself a very rational person, I know for a fact that Catholic guilt still exists in my emotional psyche because it was imbued in me from such an early age.

Talking through your hole when you don't have kids - its impossible to put yourself in the position of decision making for kids until you have your own, I don't care if you are surrounded by 100s of them every day. Obviously you can have views and ideals now but its very different when in the actual position. I agree with your views on the church and the need for change, its how I go about the change is where we differ. You say I'm a hypocrite for what I am doing which fundamentally I agree with - I can't say I have one belief but go against it at the same time... BUT, as I have outlined, it has been a difficult situation and one that my wife would be more forceful about in terms of the need for our daughter not to feel excluded or different. And I'll say again to you, what are you actually doing to make a difference and stand up to the Catholic church? - Aside from not standing for gospel and being the talk of the town? Why are you not up on that soapbox in the town telling them all that they are a pack of clowns and to give up their faith?

In reference to your second point, we have said that not everything she is told in school is what we believe - she already asked why we don't go to mass and never hears mention of baby Jesus or god at home - over Christmas she was laughing at me because she heard me saying 'Baby Jesus my arse' in reference to something on the TV. You need to be careful though as there is a real fine line when saying don't listen to some things in school but listen to others. Just over lunch I asked my daughter a bit more about what she is taught in religion and she mentioned about how god created the earth and then put animals on it and people to look after the animals (this immediately angered me!) - I asked her if she believes that and she said 'kind of, but how did the animals and people just appear?'... she also pointed out how I had shown her a video before to do with people where people originated (there is a great video somewhere on youtube that shows an animated depiction of evolution) and thought that looked more real than animals and people just being put on earth - she did however go on to say that she does believe that baby Jesus had to live in a cave for a while as he had no house, and that brings you right back to how you deal with someone of 6 years old and the need to tread carefully! After that she pottered off to play with her fairies again...

I think where we really differ here is on your last point - you say you had a Catholic upbringing and it has clearly had an impact on your life, especially as you mention Catholic guilt. The only element of Catholicism for me growing up was in school, nothing at home and my mother was in fact very anti-catholicism from as far back as I can remember. My memory of catholicism as I've already said was generally a laugh, something that myself and my mates in school saw as a doss class... certainly in my case never taken seriously.

That said, it has made me think again how else can I work towards my kids having no catholic input in their lives. I agree what is said in that people need to make a change and it is all of our responsibilities, its just drawing the line between my beliefs and what it good for my kids... and before you jump in again on the aspect of what is good for kids, I know religion isn't but the line is drawn between the level of religious input in school versus what she is told at home and how it might affect her should we decide to eliminate the Catholic input in her school, that being to take her out of the once a week class on religion and also communion etc - which also means not taking part in the annual Christmas play, singing practice etc so there is a lot to weigh up. I've agreed with my wife that we are going to make an appointment to meet her new teacher - they recently got a new teacher as the previous one is out on maternity leave... we would have been due to meet anyway later in Feb for a parent teacher meeting but we are going to meet specifically and ask exactly what is being taught in religion and if other kids may not be involved in communion etc. Maybe the solution is to stick up a message on some notice boards to see if there are families in a similar position that don't want their kids to feel excluded and would like to have an alternative celebration to communion, something where kids can still get dressed up and get a few quid... a 1st class celebration or something.

Scubadevils

Zascar wrote: »

Wow this is all getting very grown up! Can someone please start talking about boobs or farts or something!


That's pretty much what everyone thinks about most of what Jeff says! :pac:

Yeah its way too heavy sh1t for me on the internetz.

Happy to discuss at the next boards meet up!

jtsuited

Scubadevils wrote: »

And I'll say again to you, what are you actually doing to make a difference and stand up to the Catholic church? - Aside from not standing for gospel and being the talk of the town? Why are you not up on that soapbox in the town telling them all that they are a pack of clowns and to give up their faith?

I'm not doing anything because I don't come into contact with Christians all that often. If I had a kid and was forced to send them to a faith-school due to the fact that the department of education still think it's ok for the Catholic Church to run most schools in this country, you can be guaranteed I'd be trying to get my kid to do something that would end up with me taking them to court.

Also,a bunch of baptists dropped their anti-evolution nonsense through my door, and I actually went about seeing if I could give them flyers outside their church. It was actually the litter laws that I'd be breaking and tbh I'm all for litter laws so that was a no-go.
And....since the blasphemy bill came into being, I have consulted many legal-heads about what would actually be the most likely way to end up in court because of it.
Of course, again, it's actually other perfectly reasonable laws that they'd get you for but it's a work in progress right now for me. Nobody wants to convict under the blasphemy bill because it will blow the whole thing wide open and show how stupid our legislation is in this regard. But I'm telling you know, as soon as I'm given a way to challenge it, I'll be all over it.

To say I can't call it hypocrisy because I don't have children is understandable, but wrong.
You seem to be acknowledging that there's a serious issue here (what with your suggestion of putting notices up about communion etc.), and I reckon you're genuinely questioning your stance on it, despite your statement that you definitely won't change your mind.

And of course it'd be better to chat about over the next board beers!

Scubadevils

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm not doing anything because I don't come into contact with Christians all that often. If I had a kid and was forced to send them to a faith-school due to the fact that the department of education still think it's ok for the Catholic Church to run most schools in this country, you can be guaranteed I'd be trying to get my kid to do something that would end up with me taking them to court.

Also,a bunch of baptists dropped their anti-evolution nonsense through my door, and I actually went about seeing if I could give them flyers outside their church. It was actually the litter laws that I'd be breaking and tbh I'm all for litter laws so that was a no-go.
And....since the blasphemy bill came into being, I have consulted many legal-heads about what would actually be the most likely way to end up in court because of it.
Of course, again, it's actually other perfectly reasonable laws that they'd get you for but it's a work in progress right now for me. Nobody wants to convict under the blasphemy bill because it will blow the whole thing wide open and show how stupid our legislation is in this regard. But I'm telling you know, as soon as I'm given a way to challenge it, I'll be all over it.

To say I can't call it hypocrisy because I don't have children is understandable, but wrong.
You seem to be acknowledging that there's a serious issue here (what with your suggestion of putting notices up about communion etc.), and I reckon you're genuinely questioning your stance on it, despite your statement that you definitely won't change your mind.

And of course it'd be better to chat about over the next board beers!

Oh I do acknowledge there is an issue, and as I said earlier, I have a seriously good reason to have issues with Catholic Ireland and their policies over the years, one I'll discuss over a beer but not here...

And I didn't say you can't call it hypocrisy, I agreed with you but said its not as simple as that, which its not and you cannot put yourself in the position till you have children... I discussed this recently with a friend who recently had a child... he said the exact same thing as what I did after our first - you go through life up to kids with you being the most important thing in the world, self first in every way really - when the first and subsequent children arrive along, you very much become 2nd - they are what is most important to you so previous views on life can change or evolve into something different.

Anyway, ENOUGH!!!