You are not a f*cking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing c*nt.

BaZmO*

Billy Connolly was right when he said (/paraphrasing) 'it's the middle classes that are obsessed with class more than anybody else'

Logical Fallacy

Android 666 wrote: »

Go back far enough with anyone and you're right we probably all came from a dirt poor background but what happened in the past is not an indicator of what is happening in the present.

But a trend is a trend, so it's reasonable to surmise that it shall continue.

No one is going anywhere right now i'll grant you...but great-great-grandkids could end up in very different perceived classes to the families they will have descended from.

Android 666

BaZmO* wrote: »

Billy Connolly was right when he said (/paraphrasing) 'it's the middle classes that are obsessed with class more than anybody else'

T'is true. It's the middle class in America who after realising that their ability to move up in the world is zilch, have turned to the unions. They've realised that over the last couple of years they've been sold a pup.

BaZmO*

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

But a trend is a trend, so it's reasonable to surmise that it shall continue.

No one is going anywhere right now i'll grant you...but great-great-grandkids could end up in very different perceived classes to the families they will have descended from.

It's like Americans complaining about those 'damn immigints!' Oh the irony.

Android 666 wrote: »

T'is true. It's the middle class in America who after realising that their ability to move up in the world is zilch, have turned to the unions. They've realised that over the last couple of years they've been sold a pup.

He was actually speaking about the UK in particular.

Is mise le key

Android 666 wrote: »

T'is true. It's the middle class in America who after realising that their ability to move up in the world is zilch, have turned to the unions. They've realised that over the last couple of years they've been sold a pup.

I would be more inclined to andys reasoning here, there is an obvious divide of ruling class & working class we agree, however, the perception is created for a large section of society that they are 'upwardly mobile' & a cut above the working class, but in reality when the macro & micro economics of the capitalist system eventually reach crisis point they are like the rest of us, only one more pay check away from being broke if the rug is pulled from under them.

All the while the ruling class are getting richer.

As andy said, people who bought into the whole middle class con, they were sold a pup.

BaZmO*

Is mise le key wrote: »

...they are like the rest of us, only one more pay check away from being broke if the rug is pulled from under them...

Wasn't there a study done (during the boom I think) saying that, apart from the uber rich, the majority of people are just something like 2 or 3 paychecks away from bankruptcy.

Is mise le key wrote: »

As andy said, people who bought into the whole middle class con, they were sold a pup.

But people are still buying into it.

A lot of people still buy into the social mobility con, in the sense that they think, "if I dream hard enough I can achieve anything". And all these X Factor/Pop Idol shows with their quick fix backdoor entry to instant success just perpetuate the myth. But it's generally horsesh1t. Money is the biggest factor in creating a better life for yourself. Education, better job, more money, mixing in more successful circles, etc., etc.

As Logic pointed out, social mobility does happen, to a degree, but it's a gradual thing that happens over generations. Dolores McNamara being a perfect example. She's obviously working class, and had she not have won the Euromillions, her children and most probably her grandchildren, would have just continued the class status. But unless she blows every penny, eventually their circumstances will change. Footballers are the perfect example of this. Most come from extremely working class backgrounds, but you wouldn't consider their kids as working class.

ianuss

Richard Wolff; The truth about 'class war' in America

http://rdwolff.com/content/truth-about-class-war-america

Clanket

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

The concept of class is an effective hangover from the days of nobility and royalty. It's also a remnant of caste systems and other such goodness, where the circumstance of your birth would largely dictate your role and opportunities in life.

The simple truth of it is that the divide is now based on money...so over the course of a few generations it's possible to acquire enough for your family to go from working poor to very rich and completely forget where they started.

I know more than a few folk who has quite rich parents and like to consider themselves upper glass...but their granddad was just a guy who had a shop in a small village down the country.

Class is an illusion...it's easier to lump people into one spot based of some weird pseudo-social reaction than consider the person might not be what you think they are.

BaZmO* wrote: »

Billy Connolly was right when he said (/paraphrasing) 'it's the middle classes that are obsessed with class more than anybody else'

Nail on the head lads.

ianuss wrote: »

It's not just to do with money, historically yes, but it has morphed into very distinguishable groups. Have a look at maps and voting patterns. Check how many red tops are sold versus broadsheets in newsagents in different areas

But what exactly is it that makes you one class over another? The newspaper you buy, the way you vote etc etc?

I'm from a so called 'working class' area, Tallaght but I moved when I was 15. So am I now a different class? What about my folks?

The only socio-economic classes or groups that exist these days imo are:-
People that come from a disadvantaged background and those that don't.

Is mise le key

Clanket wrote: »

The only socio-economic classes or groups that exist these days imo are:-
People that come from a disadvantaged background and those that don't.

I heard this in a film called shooter with mark wahlberg,

"There are no sides. There's no Sunnis and Shiites. There's no Democrats and Republicans. There's only HAVES and HAVE-NOTS. "

BaZmO*

ianuss wrote: »

Richard Wolff; The truth about 'class war' in America

http://rdwolff.com/content/truth-about-class-war-america

...at the end of the second world war, for every dollar Washington raised in taxes on individuals, it raised $1.50 in taxes on business profits. Today, that ratio is very different: for every dollar Washington gets in taxes on individuals, it takes 25 cents in taxes on business.

Wow

Clanket

Wonder what the pre-war figure was because taxes will always be high in/after war.

ianuss

Clanket wrote: »

But what exactly is it that makes you one class over another? The newspaper you buy, the way you vote etc etc?

I'm from a so called 'working class' area, Tallaght but I moved when I was 15. So am I now a different class? What about my folks?

The only socio-economic classes or groups that exist these days imo are:-
People that come from a disadvantaged background and those that don't.

It's not a case of ticking off a few things on a checklist to see if you're from one class or another. Well I don't think so anyway. It's not based on a monetary figure either. There are plenty of unemployed middle class people out there. And while it may sound counter-intuitive I do think that's the case.

My point initially was that there is a class divide, that it doesn't just exist in your head. The differences are real and apparent. I gave the voting patterns and newspapers just as examples.

I think it's as much to do with with the psychology of groups as anything. If I think I'm in a group, and the group members thinks they're a group - well then the group exists. And if you're in the group you take on their norms and mannerisms etc. And I think that can be seen in the way different classes use the English language, the way they dress etc etc etc

All you have to do is watch an episode of Wife Swap and it's pretty obvious that class divide exist - that show's premise, and entertainment value is based on it.

Anyway, I'm off to play my lawn bowls quarter final against Killiney. Laters

ianuss

BaZmO* wrote: »

Wow

Check out his site for plenty more "wow".

http://rdwolff.com/

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

If I think I'm in a group, and the group members thinks they're a group - well then the group exists.

I couldnt help but get from that, that it kind of reafirms Clankets assertion that it is in your head, i dont agree with Clanket i have to say, but the way you put it sounds like its only a perception based on environment & interpretation.

ianuss wrote: »

Anyway, I'm off to play my lawn bowls quarter final against Killiney. Laters

Thats not about class, thats about age:D

ianuss

Okay, but if you're going to go down that road you may as well say that there are no groups amongst humans at all. No races, no nations, no religions. Under our skin we're all the same, we're just a bunch of monkeys.

Is mise le key

ianuss wrote: »

Okay, but if you're going to go down that road you may as well say that there are no groups amongst humans at all. No races, no nations, no religions. Under our skin we're all the same, we're just a bunch of monkeys.

No you missed my sentiment, i agree with you, just that the way you put it forward sounds like its a perception based interpretation, when in reality it is a very real divide.

We are all the human race, and races, religions & nations being what makes us identifyable & we should allow our pride in each & every one of them to flourish, but if that pride begins to cause a diminishing of the quality of life of another, it is an issue that needs to be resolved.

The class divide is an enginneered reality with no regard for the quality of life of the workers, workers are increasingly being seen more & more as mere commoditys & overheads & with the intransigence & capitulation of the Unions it is allowed to deepen & become more accute.

This will no doubt ebb & flow over the course of time but right now we are being exploited moreso than ever & the worlds people manipulated, fooled, lied to & murdered in order to maintain the inequitable macro capitalist system.

ianuss

Ah I know you were only buzzin. But at the same time I could see where that argument could go so I just wanted to nip it in the bud. I think my problem is that I've been scarred by my experiences of dealing with Leggo.

jtsuited

jtsuited wrote: »

ah yes the old 'there is no class system in the US' line. Absolute and utter horsesh1t. Remember when Tiger Woods came along? Seriously, there was uproar because of the 'types' it was attracting to the sport. Remember the Fried Chicken remark from the PGA guy?

Happy Gilmore was a direct play on the class issue, and to say otherwise shows a serious blindness to class issues.

I didn't mean that there is no class system in the US across the board, c'mon like.. I meant I never experienced the bullsh1t stuck up attitudes on the courses that i played compared with what you can sometimes find here
I think that is more along the lines of ignorant racism that you are describing

ianuss

Class divide in the US is official http://www.theonion.com/articles/onion-news-network-launches-new-tv-channel-for-the,26089/

jtsuited

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't mean that there is no class system in the US across the board, c'mon like.. I meant I never experienced the bullsh1t stuck up attitudes on the courses that i played compared with what you can sometimes find here
I think that is more along the lines of ignorant racism that you are describing

Ah but, in many parts of the US, the racial and class divisions are very much the same thing...
Go into a predominantly black area, it tends to be poor. Go into a Jewish area it tends to be super rich. Go into a typical white neighbourhood, it'll be typically wealthy more or less.
Racism and social prejudice are quite intertwined concepts.

Anecdotally speaking, I've played golf in Connecticut in an area that was massively Jewish. It was super super super rich, and it was rare to see anybody who wasn't white/jewish. Apart from at the side of the highway pulled in by the cops.

The reason hardly any racial or class segregation had to happen in the golf clubs is because the geographical boundaries in the US do a stunningly good job of keeping the have and have-nots well apart.

In Dublin, you're never more than a few miles away from either an obscenely affluent area or a dodgy impoverished one. In the states, you could drive for miles in either one and not see a hint that the other even exists.

Logical Fallacy

ianuss wrote: »

Okay, but if you're going to go down that road you may as well say that there are no groups amongst humans at all. No races, no nations, no religions. Under our skin we're all the same, we're just a bunch of monkeys.

It's not about the actuality of differentiation but the perceived superiority garnered by a certain label.

I imagine if someone said to you that they think Muslims, black people and French people are inferior to them you would wonder why and most likely point out the lack of validity to their statement.

Class is little more than a refuge for people who feel too polite or enlightened to harbour racist or sexist sentiment. It's fed by a necessity for people to feel better about themselves in relation to others without any action or evidence and that is why it has such a strong hold on the general public's imagination.

BaZmO*

Spot on Logic.

There's 3 types of class types imo; The really rich, the really poor, and the rest of us. It's the certain elements within the middle bits that obsess with 'apparent' differences between the 'rest of us'

jtsuited

well the next time certain members come on here who have specific interests and opinions highly consistent with the average interests and opinions of other people with their common socioeconomic background, we'll know it's just coincidence and that class is merely a figment of the collective imagination of the middle class who don't exist because it's just in their imagination, and therefore 'they' don't exist.

jtsuited

jtsuited wrote: »

Ah but, in many parts of the US, the racial and class divisions are very much the same thing...
Go into a predominantly black area, it tends to be poor. Go into a Jewish area it tends to be super rich. Go into a typical white neighbourhood, it'll be typically wealthy more or less.
Racism and social prejudice are quite intertwined concepts.

Anecdotally speaking, I've played golf in Connecticut in an area that was massively Jewish. It was super super super rich, and it was rare to see anybody who wasn't white/jewish. Apart from at the side of the highway pulled in by the cops.

The reason hardly any racial or class segregation had to happen in the golf clubs is because the geographical boundaries in the US do a stunningly good job of keeping the have and have-nots well apart.

In Dublin, you're never more than a few miles away from either an obscenely affluent area or a dodgy impoverished one. In the states, you could drive for miles in either one and not see a hint that the other even exists.

Alot of area's do exist in bubbles over there alright, come to think of it everything may have seemed so relaxed to us on some of those courses because we were all half cut... Got to love those beer carts

Mister Dread

ianuss wrote: »

Class divide in the US is official http://www.theonion.com/articles/onion-news-network-launches-new-tv-channel-for-the,26089/

Lol! how offensive is that? Nothing suprises me about US tv anymore.

Android 666

Mister Dread wrote: »

Lol! how offensive is that? Nothing suprises me about US tv anymore.

That would be what is called satire. Amazingly some Americans have a handle on it...

ianuss

I hope MisterDread finds his baseball.

Logical Fallacy

jtsuited wrote: »

well the next time certain members come on here who have specific interests and opinions highly consistent with the average interests and opinions of other people with their common socioeconomic background, we'll know it's just coincidence and that class is merely a figment of the collective imagination of the middle class who don't exist because it's just in their imagination, and therefore 'they' don't exist.

Class is little more than cross correlation of characteristics within a demographic. The average persons understanding of class as being a three tier system is way too limited.

I'm not saying Class is imaginary, i'm saying the popular interpretation of Class as an indicator of social and moral worth is. Class isn't some kind of glue that holds society together, it's statistical coincidence given a name.

jimi_t2

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I'm not saying Class is imaginary, i'm saying the popular interpretation of Class as an indicator of social and moral worth is. Class isn't some kind of glue that holds society together, it's statistical coincidence given a name.

I'd some notion you were a Marxist before... huh!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci#Hegemony

Logical Fallacy

jimi_t2 wrote: »

I'd some notion you were a Marxist before... huh!

Nope, i'm a Statistician.