Immigration both nationally and internationally

shinfujiwara

ron2010 wrote: »

You see that is the whole problem. The People who are in favour of immigration into Ireland are usually foreign people who's ancestors didn't work hard or even die to make our country today.

Personally I dont consider foreign people with Irish Citizenship Irish.

They have their opinion that immigration is good because they abandoned their homelands for work abroad and it makes them feel better about themselves if everyone else does the same.

A lot of Irish People emigrated but ' A Lot Didn't' they stuck it out in their homelands for better or worse.

It's easy to say that you would be in a country for better or worse, when you're an irish living in 2010. What your ancestors did, doesn't count for nothing, they're dead. Before this place called "Ireland" there was obviously another place, with another people, and do you feel that way too about that people which you don't even know? Because by this line of thought you should, even if they are dead 50.000 years ago.

Lots of irish ran away because this was the smart thing to do, no matter what type of romantic thing you come up with, that's the truth. If you lived in a reality where you can't buy clothes and food, couldn't do nothing for your family, everyday was horrible... your children crying because of hunger, you wife crying hysterically and trying to believe that YOU would fix something, when you know that's just IMPOSSIBLE.

Life is the entire world as we know it, there is no such thing as "I'm irish and i'm proud of it!", "I'm japanese and I'm proud of it!", "I'll stay with my people dying with them because they are my people and I love them".

So, you would die in a place that some politician put a name on it and said that it was your land and your people? Get real my friend... every place on our world is your land, and every single person is your people. Yes, in truth you live in that big of a "country", isn't that great? I genuinely hope that you'll wake up from that dream or you will be like those american soldiers that continuously die in some meaningless war because of 2 men who were amazingly childish and decided to kill some thousands of brainwashed citizens just to make a point.

"Personally I dont consider foreign people with Irish Citizenship Irish." That's because there is no such thing as "irish" or "Ireland". It's just a map, and in that part of the map people now have a so called "1st world quality of life" and have the tendency to drink beer all the time, that's it. Some recent people in your land were smart enough to do the right thing and now you're just dandy because of them, you know what this is called? Luck! Pretty good luck in fact.

You could have born and lived in some inhabitable place, you just didn't. It was just "an accident of birth", as a wise american/irish man called George Carlin, once told people. You need to understand that people who are born in a good place will think it's paradise, and will cherish it, as you probably do. People who are not born in this kind of place will see how **** it is, and if they have the option, of course they will flee to a better place! That is just the voice of reason. Wouldn't you agree?

There is nothing romantic about this matter. If you read my other posts you'll see how romantic I am about "my brazilian people", just because I was born in this part of the Atlas. I wanted to know when human beings will just live together, not labeled with nationalities, and just live their lives. It's just a name folks... there is nothing to it, it's just a name.

ron2010

shinfujiwara wrote: »

It's easy to say that you would be in a country for better or worse, when you're an irish living in 2010. What your ancestors did, doesn't count for nothing, they're dead. Before this place called "Ireland" there was obviously another place, with another people, and do you feel that way too about that people which you don't even know? Because by this line of thought you should, even if they are dead 50.000 years ago.

Lots of irish ran away because this was the smart thing to do, no matter what type of romantic thing you come up with, that's the truth. If you lived in a reality where you can't buy clothes and food, couldn't do nothing for your family, everyday was horrible... your children crying because of hunger, you wife crying hysterically and trying to believe that YOU would fix something, when you know that's just IMPOSSIBLE.

Life is the entire world as we know it, there is no such thing as "I'm irish and i'm proud of it!", "I'm japanese and I'm proud of it!", "I'll stay with my people dying with them because they are my people and I love them".

So, you would die in a place that some politician put a name on it and said that it was your land and your people? Get real my friend... every place on our world is your land, and every single person is your people. Yes, in truth you live in that big of a "country", isn't that great? I genuinely hope that you'll wake up from that dream or you will be like those american soldiers that continuously die in some meaningless war because of 2 men who were amazingly childish and decided to kill some thousands of brainwashed citizens just to make a point.

"Personally I dont consider foreign people with Irish Citizenship Irish." That's because there is no such thing as "irish" or "Ireland". It's just a map, and in that part of the map people now have a so called "1st world quality of life" and have the tendency to drink beer all the time, that's it. Some recent people in your land were smart enough to do the right thing and now you're just dandy because of them, you know what this is called? Luck! Pretty good luck in fact.

You could have born and lived in some inhabitable place, you just didn't. It was just "an accident of birth", as a wise american/irish man called George Carlin, once told people. You need to understand that people who are born in a good place will think it's paradise, and will cherish it, as you probably do. People who are not born in this kind of place will see how **** it is, and if they have the option, of course they will flee to a better place! That is just the voice of reason. Wouldn't you agree?

There is nothing romantic about this matter. If you read my other posts you'll see how romantic I am about "my brazilian people", just because I was born in this part of the Atlas. I wanted to know when human beings will just live together, not labeled with nationalities, and just live their lives. It's just a name folks... there is nothing to it, it's just a name.

No your wrong. What our ancestors did means everything. we are who we are because of them and we are here today because of them.

There are plenty of people in terrible situations all over the world but they don't all get up and walk away. They stick it out.

A lot of my grandparents etc were born into extreme poverty and struggled to put meals on the table but they stuck it out.

Ireland to me isn't just another place on a map that means nothing. It's my home and is a part of me.

You see a lot of people with influence including the Irish Government are turning it into some sort of multicultural centre where in years and years to come the Irish People as a race will cease to exist.

Maybe my way of thinking is wrong but I can't help feeling the way I do.

And I have to say I am glad as an Irish Person that I voted No to every single european treaty so far because it is down to the EU that the Country is the way it is.

shinfujiwara

ron2010 wrote: »

No your wrong. What our ancestors did means everything. we are who we are because of them and we are here today because of them.

There are plenty of people in terrible situations all over the world but they don't all get up and walk away. They stick it out.

A lot of my grandparents etc were born into extreme poverty and struggled to put meals on the table but they stuck it out.

Ireland to me isn't just another place on a map that means nothing. It's my home and is a part of me.

You see a lot of people with influence including the Irish Government are turning it into some sort of multicultural centre where in years and years to come the Irish People as a race will cease to exist.

Maybe my way of thinking is wrong but I can't help feeling the way I do.

And I have to say I am glad as an Irish Person that I voted No to every single european treaty so far because it is down to the EU that the Country is the way it is.

Be glad is different to feel proud or special because of what people did in the past.

Let's say that some years ago Brazil was an amazing place to live, just wonderful. And then you travel to the past with a high-tech high-def television showing your grandparents that they could live a WONDERFUL life in this place called Brazil, that there was nothing to fear about it, they could bring any one they want. Any irish citizen could just land in that wonderful place in the same day and do whatever they wanted with their lives. You showed them that in that place was just bliss all the time.

I can assure you, they would definitely travel to this hypothetical place now that they have the knowledge and feel confident to do so. If they were living in such a bad condition, they would. It's nothing about nationalities, it's just kindness to your family and yourself. There is no reason to suffer if you have the opportunity not to.

So when you say "There are plenty of people in terrible situations all over the world but they don't all get up and walk away. They stick it out." I agree. But you need to understand that they do this because of the lack of knowledge. Most of my friends when I say to them that I'm probably going to Ireland next year, they get shocked. They don't know where Ireland is, they don't know how good life is compared to theirs, they don't know the language, don't know absolutely nothing! Some of them actually thought that we could even die of freezing. They think that you guys are Iceland or something, and they don't even consider that you might have heating in your homes, because this is luxury stuff here. The reality is, if you don't die in some places here with -5 degrees Celsius without even proper clothes, why would someone die in there? They don't even know that they would be able to talk with me through the Internet if they wanted to. Because they don't know the technology or at least they don't understand that the "inter"net is an international thing. A few years ago I didn't knew any person who had internet access at home, not personally.

About "Irish race" that you talk about, for me it is nothing more than a human being. I feel about them the same thing that I feel about every human being. And you feel that way about "your people", because you just happened to be born in there, and even further, it's a good place to live. Another people could say "I hate that irishmen, I love my country and it's history." Wouldn't be better if anyone accepted that they are all the same race? What changes are the cultural aspects, geographical aspects, the historical events in that place. And none of those things had anything to do with you and me. Could be Ireland the place that a grown up man rapes an underage girl and feel proud of it, and Brazil the place that people enjoy The Dubliners's songs in a pub.

I would be probably be very "glad" (not proud) if I had been born in Ireland, that's what the odds say. Why? Because by our definition of today, this region has a great quality of life. I know this "quality of life" thing could sound boring and even meaningless. But I can assure you that if does, it's because the meaning of it is much stronger or weaker depending on how much of it did you witness.

Some days ago, while I was here enjoying some Playstation 3 game, some girl was screaming in the streets at night around here. Probably being raped because it's completely normal around here, I know many women who have been raped. Probably no one did nothing. I think the fact that Brazil has a immense social gap in its society helped me to have this wider perception of the world. Why while I'm here playing some Playstation 3 a women is being raped not far from here? Why many of my relatives had to die because of very poor medical assistance? Why a friend of mine around here has to work 7 days a week, more than 12 hours a day, just to be simply "able" to live? While you guys can relatively easily have a good education and superior education, an average person here would need a life time to do that.

This **** your mind you know? No one in sane condition would feel proud or glad because of that. But I just happened to be born here, it was just an "accident of birth". Could have been born in a even worse place. But I also could have born in Denmark. Why would someone have this emotional bond with only a specific land and what people did 500 years ago in this land, is something that is completely beyond my understanding capabilities. For me it is in fact just math.

So try to imagine yourself in a reality like that, would you be proud of it and stick with it no matter what? Because you would suffer and cut all the possibilities of you and any person related to you be able to be happy and health. Maybe 5 of you today, then more 5 and so on and on till 2230 or something. If someone related to me many years ago had the opportunity of get out of Brazil back in that time, to have a life in England for example, but didn't want it so he would be able to "stick with his people" (brazilians, not family). Then when I was 12 I wouldn't need to enter in my school with a weapon to defend myself. I wouldn't almost have died because of a gun fight in that time too. My mother would have a good health now. I would be able to live normally with my wife and even have kids, without any help of my family. Because if my father dies today, I would be selling this laptop in a goddamn minute, I can guarantee you that. Wouldn't have any second to cry.

You get my point now? This thing of "I belong to this land and i'll be here with my comrades" is amazingly cool and beautiful. Boy, I never miss this kind of part in a movie like Braveheart or something. But it is just a romantic stuff. If you really could do some bravery that would save your family and many others, I believe most people would do. But one man alone doesn't change anything, this is movie stuff. If it was real, people in Africa and here in South America for example, wouldn't suffer. They would just stick with their few comrades and solve all the problems.

But in reality, all that I would be able to do, is to try to live a normal life. And when I reached the age of 50, I would be dead inside already, filled with regret as many people here who have some knowledge, already are. That's why I said to you guys, that it is probably impossible for your country to "get rid" of immigrants. I understand that this could be unpleasant, many of the immigrants had a ****e life, bad education in every way possible. Criminal rates rising, over population, all this stuff must "suck". But this is normal, people running from their bad reality.

If you guys want to prevent this, you will probably need to make pressure on your government till they assume a really severe posture about immigration. That's the only way, I think. If this is the right thing to do or not, is beyond my knowledge. I hope you think about what I said, and don't feel offended by my posts. That's just how I truly feel.

jamimon

Seriously do you really think that those heroic stories will even exist nowaday? If you want to "stick it out" be my guest, I would rather find an easy way out. This problem exist not just in Ireland. Let say you live in the poverty as Ireland faced before, not in 2010, like the above post, would I not say the same to you? Why don't you hold my passport for a year, and see how people treat you. I'm sure you'll love it. We only do things for our selfish reason, and this is one of the selfish thought. But I'm not against it, somewhat I will embrace it. I would provide some entertainment for me and see how society will respond to it. Yes we can all be common and love each other and get rid of the word "race" forever. That's not going to happen. Like above post, we can only hope to have normal life. We're stuck in between, like it or not. You can be the next hero if you want. Maybe your name will be in the history book, and everyone will know you. I rather have my name on Forbes 100 Rich list and be forgotten in a week.

Nodin

ron2010 wrote: »

You see a lot of people with influence including the Irish Government are turning it into some sort of multicultural centre where in years and years to come the Irish People as a race will cease to exist.

We aren't a race.

caseyann

Nodin wrote: »

We aren't a race.

many would disagree with you

–noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.

–noun
1.
a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.
2.
a population so related.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=Y91ZHuZLCyAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=story+of+the+irish+race&source=bl&ots=87Ul4CFKu6&sig=fDrT_yw0ZWs1GugZ_VGhp0JnzCY&hl=en&ei=FC6GTNOPJdWI4Qbdx43SBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false


An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and a tradition of common ancestry (corresponding to a history of endogamy).[1][2] [3][4]
Members of an ethnic group are conscious of belonging to an ethnic group; moreover ethnic identity is further marked by the recognition from others of a group's distinctiveness.[5][6]

southsiderosie

ron2010 wrote: »

No your wrong. What our ancestors did means everything. we are who we are because of them and we are here today because of them.

There are plenty of people in terrible situations all over the world but they don't all get up and walk away. They stick it out.

A lot of my grandparents etc were born into extreme poverty and struggled to put meals on the table but they stuck it out.

Ireland to me isn't just another place on a map that means nothing. It's my home and is a part of me.

You see a lot of people with influence including the Irish Government are turning it into some sort of multicultural centre where in years and years to come the Irish People as a race will cease to exist.

Maybe my way of thinking is wrong but I can't help feeling the way I do.

And I have to say I am glad as an Irish Person that I voted No to every single european treaty so far because it is down to the EU that the Country is the way it is.

I think you're missing the point that the ability of people to "stick it out" in Ireland is strongly tied to the willingness of many hundreds of thousands of other Irish people to leave. As miserable as much of the 19th and 20th century was for people living in Ireland, it would have been much, MUCH worse had so many people not emigrated.

I also think blaming the EU for Ireland's current problems is ridiculous. The EU didn't make the government triple its budget over the last 20 years, the EU didn't introduce benchmarking, the EU didn't create NAMA, the EU didn't make the laws that allow people to claim the dole from now to eternity, and the EU did not make the Irish government agree to allow Eastern Europeans immediate access to its labor market in 2004 (and it was only one of three member states who did so). ALL of these policies were enacted by the IRISH government, elected by IRISH people.

Finally, saying that Irish people as a race will cease to exist is patently ridiculous.

jamimon

southsiderosie wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that the ability of people to "stick it out" in Ireland is strongly tied to the willingness of many hundreds of thousands of other Irish people to leave. As miserable as much of the 19th and 20th century was for people living in Ireland, it would have been much, MUCH worse had so many people not emigrated.

I also think blaming the EU for Ireland's current problems is ridiculous. The EU didn't make the government triple its budget over the last 20 years, the EU didn't introduce benchmarking, the EU didn't create NAMA, the EU didn't make the laws that allow people to claim the dole from now to eternity, and the EU did not make the Irish government agree to allow Eastern Europeans immediate access to its labor market in 2004 (and it was only one of three member states who did so). ALL of these policies were enacted by the IRISH government, elected by IRISH people.

Finally, saying that Irish people as a race will cease to exist is patently ridiculous.

You sir are the smartest person I've ever met.

southsiderosie

jamimon wrote: »

You sir ma'am are the smartest person I've ever met. Now most of the Irish wanted to be independent, I really want to see how is that going to turn out without the help from the EU.

FYP

shinfujiwara

Wikipedia says there are around 80 millions of irish descendants on our world today

The possibility of your culture to die anytime soon, seems almost inexistant to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_people

View

ron2010 wrote: »

Personally I dont consider foreign people with Irish Citizenship Irish.

A person with Irish citizenship is Irish. Hence, they are not foreign.

It doesn't depend on your or my personal beliefs but rather on the laws of the land.