KCC/Castletown backlots.

The Raven.

Fire_fly wrote: »

I attended my first AGM as a resident last year for this particular topic, the dreaded back-lots/green areas, it is MY opinion that these areas should be cleaned up, secured at night and open during the day for all the children to use. I grew up in this estate spending most of my summer days playing in these areas..why should my children be any different.. they are our areas...and I am prepared to fight for them.

Yes I agree with all of that. Good for you!

I'm one of those people that you drive by, out cleaning and planting and sweeping this estate on my time, I've shed blood (many a blister) sweat and I'm sure tears after tomorrows AGM....it really bugs me to read some of the stuff posted about this estate and the way its managed...action speak louder than words...so get up off your computer chair and get out and do something..
Looking forward to seeing you all especially you Raven at our next clean-up...

I will take that last sentence as a compliment, although it probably wasn't meant as such.

I would like to point out that I do go out and clean the street and pavements in our area with my neighbours when we decide to do it, not under orders from the CRA!

It should also be noted that I have spent months and months working on the CRA to save the Gazebo ON MY COMPUTER! I make no apologies for that! You can blame KCC for not enforcing the Enforcement Notice that we managed to secure. I have spent the last two years doing work with my colleagues fighting to save Celbridge from the horrendous Donaghcumper development, a situation that would seriously affect all Castletown residents, mostly ON MY COMPUTER! No apologies for that either!

The Raven.

On the fence wrote: »

It does not seem too long ago that people were horrified when the OPW considered erecting a fence around Castletown House. Woe betide anyone who sought to fence Castletown residents out of their precious green open space. That attitude might seem ok.

That isn't the worst of it. The OPW are now intending to erect an ugly palisade fence around our largest piece of green open space, which extends into Castletown woods, (with the help of KCC), in a shameless land grab!

Or is it? On further reading into this it seems some residents have already fenced off green open space to the exclusion of the rest of the residents.
Is this a case of the tail wagging the dog in the manger?

'Some residents' indeed! I don't know who the 'dog in the manger' is supposed to be ?? You seem to contradict this below.

People of Castletown North and South don't be taken in by the slick words of some supposedly proposed policy or other.
Read between the lines before the open green disappears into space.

Sound advice!

second

Fair play to you Raven for your efforts on the Gazebo and your clean up efforts. I would like to point out that there are a lot of areas in the estate that have a lot of older residents who are not in a position to clean up their areas. There are also a lot of residents who are not bothered about the state of their immediate area. That's where the "community clean up" is a good idea.

I have heard a lot of people complaining about the Gazebo (including me). A lot of us had thought the KCC and the association had given up on this issue!! I wasn't aware there were people working behind the scene trying to save it.

Maybe though you might also take it that the association and like minded people have also been working "behind the scene" trying to sort out the backlotts without this being noticed ? Maybe they have been trying to push it along all the time but like someone earlier said - they are hitting a brick wall or obstacles ? After all, it seems as if this is what has happened with the Gazebo ? Even though you managed to secure an Enforcement Notice it's 2 years on and still nothing done!!
Anyway, thanks to you and the association for your efforts.

The Raven.

Fire_fly wrote: »

Anyone who has had any dealing with KCC will know the brick walls you hit over and over again and again!!

On some issues yes, especially inappropriate planning permissions granted. However, there are some good people there also who are extremely kind and helpful. The Planning Department even ignores the expert advice of its own Architectural Conservation officer.

The Raven.

second wrote: »

Fair play to you Raven for your efforts on the Gazebo and your clean up efforts. I would like to point out that there are a lot of areas in the estate that have a lot of older residents who are not in a position to clean up their areas. There are also a lot of residents who are not bothered about the state of their immediate area. That's where the "community clean up" is a good idea.

I have heard a lot of people complaining about the Gazebo (including me). A lot of us had thought the KCC and the association had given up on this issue!! I wasn't aware there were people working behind the scene trying to save it.

Maybe though you might also take it that the association and like minded people have also been working "behind the scene" trying to sort out the backlotts without this being noticed ? Maybe they have been trying to push it along all the time but like someone earlier said - they are hitting a brick wall or obstacles ? After all, it seems as if this is what has happened with the Gazebo ? Even though you managed to secure an Enforcement Notice it's 2 years on and still nothing done!!
Anyway, thanks to you and the association for your efforts.

Thank you, Second. I didn't know that there were many older residents needing help. I will bear that in mind. I have been here for about 20 years, and there seemed to be mostly younger families living here when I first arrived.

I was curious as to why the situation regarding the backlots had surfaced again, and I wondered who was spearheading this latest effort. I made a few enquiries today and discovered that a number of people were concerned about losing these green spaces that they have been accustomed to ever since they came here, and now they have been closed off by certain residents even though they were told by KCC not to do this. One elderly lady cannot get her refuse bin out because of it.

I'm afraid I get very angry when I think of those people who are trying to grab the designated green open spaces from the rest of Castletown residents. We all have problems with anti-social behaviour. The problem is widespread and the vandalism is getting worse. This is an extremely serious situation that needs to be dealt with directly. It now needs a more professional approach and a more concerted effort, rather than the usual quick fix which causes further problems. Closing off backlots is not going to solve it. It just moves it on to the other remaining spaces, especially Castletown woods.

There is a map of all these green open spaces that was circulating a few years ago, and it is alarming the amount of space that is being considered to close up and just hand out to individual residents for free. If you want to look at this map, the CRA has a copy. If this goes ahead there will be hardly any green open space left.

second

I know what you mean Raven. It is desperate to see that unsocial activity brings the need to take possibly unwanted action in the face of it's threat.
I do really feel however, that if the association has done all this donkey work to try and bring things along with the KCC that now, from what I can see, we all have the opportunity at the EGM to discuss and decide what will be presented to the KCC as the majority view of the residents with regard to this. It is incumbent upon the residents ( I think ) to take up on this opportunity and attend and make their voice heard by voting on the issue in whatever way they seem fit. A bit like the elections I suppose - if you don't vote - can you really complain ?
I really think you're right - there are obviously great people in KCC, but also, I expect in the association. I think they are trying their best but from what I see here are maybe 'caught between a rock and a hard place' !
I'd say, if they are organising this opportunity with apparant 'open ears' from KCC waiting - that we should avail of the opportunity - whatever view you might have.
I know they cleared a lane into a backlot beside an elderly lady that lives alone. The lane was full of cans, rubbish etc and now it is completely clear.
I have to say, I only joined this forum this month and commented on one topic so far ( it refers to where I live ) but thought initially it seemed that it was just a place just to 'bash' the efforts of KCC or associations or whoever. I just think there should be balance and some amount of value given to those that I think are trying to do what they can.

Fire_fly

The Raven. wrote: »

I was curious as to why the situation regarding the backlots had surfaced again, and I wondered who was spearheading this latest effort. I made a few enquiries today and discovered that a number of people were concerned about losing these green spaces that they have been accustomed to ever since they came here, and now they have been closed off by certain residents even though they were told by KCC not to do this. One elderly lady cannot get her refuse bin out because of it.

Raven I don't think this issue ever fully went away..many people I know just ran out of steam trying to keep these areas open against the wishes of the residents that surround them. Many of these areas have had there lanes blocked over the years with garden rubbish and some other unpleasant waste..there have been walls built by other residents blocking access to some green areas also. This matter is in the hands of KCC another Enforcement Notice issue.. but I've heard on the grapevine that KCC have the most issued and the least acted upon Enforcement Notice compared to other CC.
Also as recent as two months ago a group of residents applied for planning permission to incorporate the Orchard walk into their back gardens. So it's always been lurking about.

For those interested the AGM tonight will touch on a 'PILOT' back-lot scheme we have been working on over the last 12 months which will hopefully show that these areas can be used, if maintained.

Fire_fly

The Raven. wrote: »

Yes I agree with all of that. Good for you!
I would like to point out that I do go out and clean the street and pavements in our area with my neighbours when we decide to do it, not under orders from the CRA!

I may be Kildare born and bred..but I'm no headless sheep...I'm not ordered to do anything by anyone...can I ask you Raven is there something I'm missing here between you and the Castletown Residents Assoc??

Do we not all live on the same estate and are we not all supposedly working for the same goal..it's great that you clean your area Raven and if everybody on the estate did their area there would be no need for any of the CRA members to give up their summer evenings and Saturdays to keep the estate looking nice.

Second you said it perfectly..we all have the opportunity at the EGM to discuss and decide what will be presented to the KCC as the majority view of the residents with regard to this. It is incumbent upon the residents (I think) to take up on this opportunity and attend and make their voice heard by voting on the issue in whatever way they seem fit. A bit like the elections I suppose - if you don't vote - can you really complain ?

It's in all our hands now...

Beruthiel

The Raven. wrote: »

That isn't the worst of it. The OPW are now intending to erect an ugly palisade fence around our largest piece of green open space, which extends into Castletown woods, (with the help of KCC), in a shameless land grab!

The Raven,
Are you talking about the green area at the back of the Walled Gardens leading into the woods, or somewhere else?

The Raven.

Beruthiel wrote: »

The Raven,
Are you talking about the green area at the back of the Walled Gardens leading into the woods, or somewhere else?

Yes, Beruthial. That's the one. If you want to hear what the CRA have to say about it, it is on their agenda for tonight's meeting at the Kildrought at 8 pm. The 'OPW liaison officer' of the CRA has been liaising on this issue for some time with the OPW and KCC.

See no. 5, page 3 on their website, for the committee info.
http://www.castletownresidentsassociation.com/3.html

smar

Back lots;

My neighbours tried along with CRA to get our backlot closed off. They were told by CRA that the Council wouldn't allow it at the time. The same CRA member managed to fence off his own back lot and extended his garden. We were furious and at that point CRA lost all credibility.

North south signs:

What is this about?? People in Celbridge don't know where the north or south of Celbridge is let alone Castletown. If giving directions we will still have to explain North entrance via the Maynooth rd, and south via Castletown gates. What was the point????

Cean ups;

A simple A4 advance notice at the Gates would give residents a reasonable opportunity to turn up, same with AGM reminder.

Committee election:
At last year's AGM there was no opportunity to elect a committee from the floor. The committee was just rushed through among those sitting at the top table. This was a very strange way of electing a committee, normally residents/members can propose names for their association. Thats the last AGM that I will attend.

joe cluxton

The Raven. wrote: »

.

See no. 5, page 3 on their website, for the committee info.
http://www.castletownresidentsassociation.com/3.html

My name is on that list of committee members. I stepped down from the Committee at last nights A.G.M. and did not go forward for re-election
I wish to state here that I am no longer a member of the committee and have asked the chairman to remove my name from the above list.

smar

CRA committee is not democratically elected without circulating nomination forms to all members to propose officers for all positions on the committee for the AGM. It is a club, with no authority to represent the residents. They are not in a position to deal with KCC or anybody else on behalf of the residents untill they adress that basic issue. Their decisions can be challanged by any resident and I would question their authority to collect subs, without being democratically elected. To overlook this basic right of residents is very arrogant and smaks of "We can do what we like" as proven when they closed off their own backlots and extended their own gardens.

second

Good God almighty !!! I was at the meeting last night. They all 'stepped down' and 'offered' to go forward again for next year if thats what the people present voted in favour of. The vote was a unanamous yes. I expect that's because no one else wanted to do it !!!
What do you really want from these people ? They are not government members who are getting paid - they are just ordinary residents like you or me. I'm really taken aback by this level of begrudgery.
Also, now that I remember - it was asked whether anyone else wanted to come on the committee or propose anyone - complete silence ! I personally felt thank god there's someone there trying to keep a handle on things. If I were them - I'd just leave us all to our own devices and say off you go - do it yourselves !! I certainly would'nt have their job if this is what they get all the time although I think this is just a very minority view here.

Beruthiel

The Raven. wrote: »

Yes, Beruthial. That's the one.

Well I'm all for any move which will keep the nightly knacker drinking in the woods from happening.
I'm am more than fed up with the fact that bunchs of teenagers go in there regularly with bags of dutch gold and vodka.
I'd have no problem if they went all the way in, but they continue to hang round the back gardens of residents who's houses have the unfortunate luck to back out onto the woods.

Fire_fly

smar wrote: »

Committee election:
At last year's AGM there was no opportunity to elect a committee from the floor. The committee was just rushed through among those sitting at the top table. This was a very strange way of electing a committee, normally residents/members can propose names for their association. Thats the last AGM that I will attend.

Smar, I take it from your post that you did not attend last night’s AGM? So for your benefit…All committee members stepped down last night and re-election was open to the floor, not one name was put forth from the 50 or so residents in attendance. A motion was put forward to re-elect the out-going committee and was passed by a majority vote.

I don’t think any of the volunteers on the committee have in-depth training into the politics of running a meeting too it’s strictest form, but if there is a resident out there that does know how, there help would be appreciated

As for your views on past events with the back-lot issues, all I can say is I’m new to the committee and have been trying (with help from the rest of the CRA) to come to some sort of solution for these areas be that open or closed..

smar

It doesn't take political skill to elect a committe at an AGM. It is common practice that members are given an opportunity prior to the meeting to go forward for all positions and on the night the member with the most votes is elected. In a lot of cases there won't be need for a vote. What makes it democratic is the fact that all members were given reasonable time to consider going forward, for all positions. This is not rocket science, but as I say common practice.

It is interesting that only 50 residents turned up out of 750 houses and nobody wanted to help. Perhaps I am not the only person who feels that CRA has lost its credibility.

Ptang Yang Kipperbang

I cannot fully comprehend the level of criticism being shown towards the CRA. An association of volunteers who regularly clean near your houses, plant flowers and meet to work on ideas to make this place of ours better. And the reward for this altruism? The majority of the people judging from this board and the AGM only interested in their own (land/financial/convenience*) gain, complaints of a lack of bureaucracy etc. etc.

The solipsistic criticising the altruistic.

I'll be voting to keep the lots open for the children to use. But if I lose I'll shake the hands of those who have won, and accept democratic defeat. Oh, yes, one final thing, I'll shake the hand of every one of those CRA volunteers. Pass it on.

* Delete as applicable to you.

second

"It doesn't take political skill to elect a committe at an AGM. It is common practice that members are given an opportunity prior to the meeting to go forward for all positions and on the night the member with the most votes is elected. In a lot of cases there won't be need for a vote. What makes it democratic is the fact that all members were given reasonable time to consider going forward, for all positions. This is not rocket science, but as I say common practice.

It is interesting that only 50 residents turned up out of 750 houses and nobody wanted to help. Perhaps I am not the only person who feels that CRA has lost its credibility. "

Smar, I got notice of the AGM where it shows election of committee. I could have put myself forward but like everyone else -did'nt. So as far as I am concerned, all the appropriate procedure and opportunity was given to everyone. It was as democratic an election as can be.
I have never seen anymore than about 50 at one of these meting during my time living in Castletown and I have attended the last @ 6 AGMs.
So has it anything to do with credibility of the association or just plain proof of the apathy of people to bother ?
What exactly is your beef with them ? Have you 'previous' with them or something ? Don't forget, the committee has changed completely over the last few years as I have seen many different faces come on board. If you or others have 'previous' with them, maybe it's as a result of previous committee members and it's time to let it lie ?
If not - why don't YOU put yourself forward - you seem to know better than them how to do it all !
Sorry, I just can't understand why you all want to criticise them without offering any 'constructive' input.

Beruthiel

smar wrote: »

It is interesting that only 50 residents turned up out of 750 houses and nobody wanted to help. Perhaps I am not the only person who feels that CRA has lost its credibility.

I think you will find that it has more to do with a total lack of time on most peoples part due to work and family obligations.
I think you will find that most people are actually grateful that someone is working away in the background on our behalf and if you have a problem with that and don't like the way they run things, then it makes perfect sense that you actually get involved with them and try to change things from the inside.
Your level of bitterness is perplexing.

On the fence

The shrewd scoundrels in Kidare County Council will indeed be grateful.
They looked for proposals via a messenger , the CRA , and who gets shot.
They must be having a good old laugh down in Naas.

Altered state of mind

Fire_fly wrote: »

I don’t think any of the volunteers on the committee have in-depth training into the politics of running a meeting too it’s strictest form, but if there is a resident out there that does know how, there help would be appreciated
QUOTE]

Perhaps this might be useful for their next meeting. http://www.the-jra.org.uk/PDF%20Document%20-%20JRA%20Guide%20to%20setting%20up%20a%20RA.pdf
It is a guide to setting up and runing residents associations. There is lots of information in it on running meetings as well . It's not rocket science or anything like that. Maybe someone on the committee might read it before the EGM.
That Gavin fella who spoke about the backlots at the AGM seems to know a thing or two about running meetings. Maybe they should put him in charge.

On the fence

Ptang Yang Kipperbang wrote: »

. But if I lose I'll shake the hands of those who have won, and accept democratic defeat.

If there were more people looking at this along the same lines as you perhaps the residents could approach this in a unified way.
It appears that the divisiveness of the backlots saga suits some parties.
Surely some skilled negotiator can be found who can bring this to a successful conclusion. A common goal rather than a win/lose approach could be beneficial. Everyone has the choice of becoming a part of the solution or remaining a part of the problem. Anger may well motivate people into action but it can mar their vision. It is motivating people right now but it won't solve the problem. There is no room for greed to play a part in this and it must be weeded out. If the people dont get together and sort this out for themselves as is their right to do, a right that has been recognised by Kildare County Council and the County Councillors, then they face another quarter of a century in the back lots wilderness.

Ask yourselves one question and be honest when answering .
Am I a part of the solution or a part of the problem?

Altered state of mind

OTF any suggestions who the skilled negotiator would be . If one materialises and finds a solution I will shake her/his hand first.

Altered state of mind

second wrote: »

.
from what I can see, we all have the opportunity at the EGM to discuss and decide what will be presented to the KCC as the majority view of the residents with regard to this. It is incumbent upon the residents ( I think ) to take up on this opportunity and attend and make their voice heard by voting on the issue in whatever way they seem fit. A bit like the elections I suppose - if you don't vote - can you really complain ?
QUOTE]
Eh its only eleven days to the elections sorry the EGM. Some information on what exactly we are voting on might be helpful. Are we to go to the EGM and vote on the night. Or will we be given a reasonable length of time to consider the issues and proposals put forward at the EGM before a vote is held.

On the fence

The only vote at the EGM is to elect a representative.
http://http://castletownresidentsassociation.com/doc/Backlotts_EGM_May2010.pdf

Agenda
1. Brief outline of the background and an update on the situation regarding the back-lots and green areas.
2. Proposals regarding the future use of each back-lot and green area within Castletown estate.
3. Election of nominated representative to co-ordinate and compile the written submission to Kildare County Council with details of the agreed plan for each area.

second

Just in case you have'nt seen, there is a whole lot of info to be seen and it also seems as if there is definitely quite as bit of effort being put into getting everyone together on this issue by the association as they are having an information night also, before the general meeting.
I think this is very good by the fact there there is actually a group there who is obviously doing a lot of work on this on our behalf - whether it comes to fruition or not !
I don't really think we can complain about them if you think about it - who else got together to organise anything for us residents of Castletown ?
On a seperate note, I did'nt think the AGM went too badly ? I mean, all the people who have been working on things gave their reports and items got debated. I think if we get too 'nit picky' about specific technicalities, we could end up not seeing the wood for the trees and get bogged down with nothing ever getting done ?
( I don't think I could ever think of going on a committee if all that was said above was all I heard ! )
I wonder will the Backlot issue ever get solved ? hmmm

second

Sorry, forgot to post the link !!
http://www.castletownresidentsassociation.com/5.html

On the fence

Kcc gave you a report in Feb . You wait until now and give us less than 2 weeks to make a detailed submission. This is an appaling insult to residents.

The Raven.

On the fence wrote: »

Kcc gave you a report in Feb . You wait until now and give us less than 2 weeks to make a detailed submission. This is an appaling insult to residents.

I couldn’t agree more! Shame on the CRA for treating Castletown residents with such an inexcusable lack of consideration!

The CRA are fully aware that a large volume of Castletown residents have been individually involved in writing objections and further objections and Appeals against the hideous Donaghcumper development which would seriously affect the people of Celbridge, especially Castletown residents. Subsequently, at this point in time many are working flat out to deal with submissions and observations on Appeals. After that there are the County Development Plan submissions to be done. All of this is not only voluntary work but they are paying for it out of their own pockets.

Yet the CRA pick this time of all times to land this one on us! Why do the backlots have to be dealt with right now? What is the sudden rush, for heaven’s sake? The only people that this suits are those in the Planning Department of KCC. Yes indeed, they must be rubbing their hands with joy.

Thanks a lot CRA :rolleyes:!