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KCC/Castletown backlots.
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Can't find the planning legislation that states that an invitation from a county council for submissions of this kind must be in by a certain date. Perhaps the DOEHLG or the Ombudsman can clarify that.0
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Well I'm all for any move which will keep the nightly knacker drinking in the woods from happening.
I'm am more than fed up with the fact that bunchs of teenagers go in there regularly with bags of dutch gold and vodka.
I'd have no problem if they went all the way in, but they continue to hang round the back gardens of residents who's houses have the unfortunate luck to back out onto the woods.
Many more of us are fed up with it too, both inside the woods and outside! We all suffer because of it! If a fence were put up it would be a lot worse because the drinking and all associated anti-social behaviour would be on the outside of the fence, right behind your house. They can’t fence off the road!0 -
Kildare County Council in a misguided attempt to deal with anti-social activity in Castletown Celbridge are trying to bring closure to the long standing and contentious issue of the back lots. All this will succeed in doing is moving the problem from one area to another.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=122849077738898&v=app_2373072738&ref=mf#!/group.php?gid=122849077738898&v=wall&ref=mf
These back lots were designated green open spaces for all residents of Castletown. The taking of part of these back lots by individuals was itself an anti-social act.0 -
I think you will find that most people are actually grateful that someone is working away in the background on our behalf and if you have a problem with that and don't like the way they run things, then it makes perfect sense that you actually get involved with them and try to change things from the inside.
Your level of bitterness is perplexing.
Unfortunately it is the ‘working away in the background’ in this instance that is a major part of the problem. The CRA claim to be ‘open and transparent’, yet the very person who was supposed to be representing Castletown residents to KCC regarding the backlots (still holding that position, according to the website), appears to have helped himself to part of the green open space, as Smar has pointed out:Back lots:
My neighbours tried along with CRA to get our backlot closed off. They were told by CRA that the Council wouldn't allow it at the time. The same CRA member managed to fence off his own back lot and extended his garden. We were furious and at that point CRA lost all credibility.
You could take a walk along the Orchard Walk and check it out for yourself.
Committee election:
At last year's AGM there was no opportunity to elect a committee from the floor. The committee was just rushed through among those sitting at the top table. This was a very strange way of electing a committee, normally residents/members can propose names for their association. Thats the last AGM that I will attend.
That is exactly what happened, and no elections the year before. Smar was merely stating the facts. I fail to see how this can be seen as ‘bitterness’. Understandable anger would be more appropriate.
And then people wonder why only ‘50’ people turned up to this year’s AGM (if there were even that many!).A motion was put forward to re-elect the out-going committee and was passed by a majority vote.
Consequently, the ‘election’ was carried out by a small minority (a majority out of 50), of unprepared residents put on the spot, with the option of voting for a committee rather than individual members. How can this be seen as a correct method of procedure?0 -
The Raven. wrote: »Consequently, the ‘election’ was carried out by a small minority (a majority out of 50), of unprepared residents put on the spot, with the option of voting for a committee rather than individual members. How can this be seen as a correct method of procedure?
Raven, every house on this estate received a newsletter before the AGM..and it clearly stated everything that was going to be discussed at the AGM including election of Committee members..how much more prepared did they need to be...700 odd residents decided not to turn up for whatever their reasons where...
http://castletownresidentsassociation.com/doc/2010_CRA_AGM_Agenda_and_newsletter.pdf
I don't see how KCC can give land away that they have never put any effort into trying to make work or fix first..where's my 10% if they go??0 -
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KCC haven't exactly gone out of their way to keep people informed as to whats been going on here. It would seem thay they have left it to the CRA to inform the residents .
Right or wrong it is hardly suprising that people are coming to the conclusions that we see here.
I believe KCC has a responsibilty to play in informing the residents.
Any resident has a right to engage with KCC on this issue either through the CRA or through any other mechanism that thay chose.
Too many assumptions are being made here due to the lack of clarity.
That lack of clarity has been allowed to develope either by accident or by design. This is not helpful and has the potential to derail the whole process.0 -
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Any decisions made will have to be approved by the elected members of Kildare County Council.
If you have any concerns regarding the decision making process or how the results will be arrived at contact them now and make your concerns known.
There is no point in being disappointed with the outcome if you don't speak out beforehand.
Do it now before its too late. http://http://kildare.ie/countycouncil/CorporateAffairs/CorporateServices/MembersServices/MembersofKCC/0 -
Dear Fire fly,
Thank you for taking the trouble to reply. Firstly, I want to say that I was referring to myself only as regards not taking orders from the CRA.
Secondly, I don’t wish to have any argument with you, and I am on your side as regards keeping the backlots open for all Castletown residents to use as places where children can safely play rather than on the roads where they are in danger from passing vehicles. There is no reason why this can’t be done if these areas are properly maintained.Raven, every house on this estate received a newsletter before the AGM..and it clearly stated everything that was going to be discussed at the AGM including election of Committee members..how much more prepared did they need to be...700 odd residents decided not to turn up for whatever their reasons where...
Yes, I know the newsletter says that. However, these newsletters go out every year before the AGM and the ‘election’ was on the agenda last year when the committee elected itself, and the year before when there was a large attendance and no election. It is not surprising that people are disillusioned and stop coming to the AGM.
In any case, this latest newsletter re the AGM stated ‘Election of Committee Members’. That is a bit different from electing a ‘committee’ as a group, which is what happened. This did not provide the opportunity to elect members separately and vote in favour of some and not others, as is normal practise. For instance, I would have voted for some of the present committee members but certainly not all of them as a package. This lack of choice is wrong. To avoid embarrassment, it is best practise and more democratic to send out nomination forms, and to elect members by secret ballot. These methods are not always necessary but, given the ambiguities and covert nature of the present CRA and the Backlots issue, it would seem the fairest approach to take.
Something else needs clarification here. There seems to be the assumption on the part of some posters here that those who do not agree with the behaviour of the CRA are being negative merely for the sake of it. Nothing could be further from the truth.The committee is open to all members of the estate and all help is appreciated and very much needed, their are subcommittees in place so people can pick and choose which areas they are interested in or be involved in all areas, they meet the 1st Tuesday of every month in the Kildrought downstairs..no secret passwords of disguises needed..just bring your owning drink money!
This is the general impression that is given also from their website, and it never ceases to amaze me! What they are not telling you is that some of us were on their sub-committees working tirelessly and attending regular meetings. Eventually, after all our hard work and time spent, for no given reason, we were no longer allowed to come to the meetings, but had to be represented by only one member of each group (selected by persons unknown) in spite of the fact that there were very few of us.
In view of this, how on earth can it be said that ‘The committee is open to all members of the estate’? This gives the impression that all residents are welcome at their monthly meetings. Could you please clarify this for me and explain precisely what you mean by this? It seems to me that nothing has changed and all important decisions for our estate are being made by an inner circle of unelected people, giving the impression to KCC and the OPW that the are representing the wishes of all Castletown residents.0 -
Second, Fire/Fly,
Me and my neighbours really want to get our back lot sorted. We don't care if it is used for the kids or for vegetables or given to people. We just want it cleaned. My ma is old and for years the drinking and fires at holloween drove her crazy. We were not mad that CRA members took in their own back lot but because they told us that we could do nothing with ours. It really was double standards.
For my mother's sake I would work with new CRA volunteers. But you can't expect us to take advice from members who have made fools out of us in the past. That is not fair and my neighbours won't go. The members who did this should understand that and leave it to new volunteers to make a fresh start.
Can you let me know if the people giving advice on the backlots at the EGM have already closed off their own area? You can see from my last posts that I am angry but maybe even writing here has helped to get it off my chest, nobody likes to be made a fool of.
If I had been given a nomination form before the AGM me and my neighbours would have put forward some names for positions. You can't really go along on the night and vote out a committee. It should be done by nomination forms and by a secret ballot on the evening that avoids people being embarrassed to maybe vote out their neighbour. If you were my neighbour and I didn't want you on a committee I am not going to put up my hand at a meeting and vote you out.
You said I think they just passed a motion at the AGM to keep the committee in, well you would need to be very brave to say no, I want some of you Out!! That's why most groups and clubs use the forms. It gives people a real chance to make changes, without causing a row.
Could you please let me know if the person talking on the backlots has closed off an area close to the Gazebo along the orchard Wall and extended their garden. If we go along and it is this person I think my neighbours will go crazy!0 -
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Second, Fire/Fly,
Me and my neighbours really want to get our back lot sorted. We don't care if it is used for the kids or for vegetables or given to people. We just want it cleaned. My ma is old and for years the drinking and fires at holloween drove her crazy. We were not mad that CRA members took in their own back lot but because they told us that we could do nothing with ours. It really was double standards.
For my mother's sake I would work with new CRA volunteers. But you can't expect us to take advice from members who have made fools out of us in the past. That is not fair and my neighbours won't go. The members who did this should understand that and leave it to new volunteers to make a fresh start.
Can you let me know if the people giving advice on the backlots at the EGM have already closed off their own area? You can see from my last posts that I am angry but maybe even writing here has helped to get it off my chest, nobody likes to be made a fool of.
If I had been given a nomination form before the AGM me and my neighbours would have put forward some names for positions. You can't really go along on the night and vote out a committee. It should be done by nomination forms and by a secret ballot on the evening that avoids people being embarrassed to maybe vote out their neighbour. If you were my neighbour and I didn't want you on a committee I am not going to put up my hand at a meeting and vote you out.
You said I think they just passed a motion at the AGM to keep the committee in, well you would need to be very brave to say no, I want some of you Out!! That's why most groups and clubs use the forms. It gives people a real chance to make changes, without causing a row.
Could you please let me know if the person talking on the backlots has closed off an area close to the Gazebo along the orchard Wall and extended their garden. If we go along and it is this person I think my neighbours will go crazy!0 -
Kildare County Council never said that this had to be processed via the CRA .
In their report of 17/02/10 KCC said: “the initiative should be led by Castletown Residents and where appropriate supported by the Council in the discharge of its statutory function”
Castletown Residents are referred to at least 5 times in the two page report. At no stage did KCC refer to the CRA in the report.
According to the CRA, KCC have asked the CRA to assist in the process. Assisting in the process is one thing and should in no way be construed to mean anything other than that.
Considering the way things are being handled “assisting in the process” would seem to be very much open to interpretation.0 -
Second, Fire/Fly,
Could you please let me know if the person talking on the backlots has closed off an area close to the Gazebo along the orchard Wall and extended their garden. If we go along and it is this person I think my neighbours will go crazy!
If you are talking about the area behind the fence take a closer look. You will see that more than one person has had their garden enhanced by the erection of this fence. Prior to that fence being erected a smaller area of this backlot had been taken in. The issue was raised at an AGM some years ago and 2 or 3 people recall it being ruled out of order because it had been voted on at a previous meeting and wasn't open for discussion. Presumably if that is the case the decision still stands and that area is not included in the current initiative.0 -
On the fence wrote: »Kildare County Council never said that this had to be processed via the CRA .
In their report of 17/02/10 KCC said: “the initiative should be led by Castletown Residents and where appropriate supported by the Council in the discharge of its statutory function”
Castletown Residents are referred to at least 5 times in the two page report. At no stage did KCC refer to the CRA in the report.
According to the CRA, KCC have asked the CRA to assist in the process. Assisting in the process is one thing and should in no way be construed to mean anything other than that.
Considering the way things are being handled “assisting in the process” would seem to be very much open to interpretation.
Good observations there, OTF!0 -
When KCC are finished with the backlots what are they actually proposing to do about anti-social activity in Castletown.
Because when the backlots are gone the anti-social activity still remains. It has just moved to other areas within the estate.
If KCC believe that dealing with the backlots will bring "closure to the issue of anti-social behaviour" that does nothing to instil confidence in me. It actually scares me that they see this as the way forward.0 -
On the fence wrote: »If you are talking about the area behind the fence take a closer look. You will see that more than one person has had their garden enhanced by the erection of this fence. Prior to that fence being erected a smaller area of this backlot had been taken in. The issue was raised at an AGM some years ago and 2 or 3 people recall it being ruled out of order because it had been voted on at a previous meeting and wasn't open for discussion. Presumably if that is the case the decision still stands and that area is not included in the current initiative.
Yes, I noticed that. 'Ruled out of order'? Amazing how formal things become when it suits them!
If public open space is taken into private ownership without Planning Permission it is Unauthorised Development and should be pursued by KCC. They need to be notified of this first. In fact, the closing off of backlots and the erection of fences without correct planning procedure is also UD, and should be addressed. There was a similar situation elsewhere in Celbridge some years back which ended up with An Bord Pleanala. These people obviously applied for Planning Permission first.An Bord Pleanála
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT) ACTS, 1963 TO 1999
County Kildare
Planning Register Reference Number: 00/1973
APPEAL by J. Gallagher care of Vincent J.P. Farry and Company Limited of Suite
180, 28 South Frederick Street, Dublin against the decision made on the 5th day of
January, 2001 by the Council of the County of Kildare to refuse permission to
Capstan Limited care of Fitzgerald Finlay Mulligan of 17 Carysfort Avenue,
Blackrock, County Dublin for development comprising a new boundary wall to side
and rear of Number 1 The Lawns and Number 9 The Grove, to include existing open
space into private gardens and removing public path at Abbey Farm, Celbridge,
County Kildare:
DECISION: Pursuant to the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts,
1963 to 1999, permission is hereby refused for the said development for the reasons
set out in the Schedule hereto.
SCHEDULE
1. The proposed development would seriously injure the amenities of property in
the vicinity by removing from public access an attractive area of public open
space with a public footpath. The proposed development would, therefore, be
contrary to the proper planning and development of the area.
2. The proposed development would contravene materially a condition attached
to an existing permission for development in that the permission for the
original housing estate requires that open spaces shall be developed for and
devoted to public use, shall be kept free of any development and shall not be
enclosed by any means. The proposed development would, therefore, be
contrary to the proper planning and development of the area.
Member of An Bord Pleanála
duly authorised to authenticate
the seal of the Board.
Dated this day of 2001
It is also worth looking at the Planning and Development Act 2000, as there are laws in relation to this. All of this needs to be pointed out to KCC and the original Planning documents for Castletown Housing Estate should be looked into, if they don't go conveniently missing.0 -
The County Development Plan and the Celbridge Local Area Plan include the following objectives regarding the Open space in residential developments:
Kildare County Development Plan 2005-2011
5 Housing
H 20 To prohibit the development of areas zoned open space amenity or areas which have been indicated in a previous planning application as being open space.
Celbridge Local Area Plan 2010
4.1 Objectives
(i) Development shall not be permitted on designated areas of open space that form part of a site layout for previously permitted development.
4.2 Taking Estates in Charge
Once the estate is in charge it will be a matter for the residents of the estate to organise and arrange for the management and maintenance of the public open spaces in the estate. This could be done either through the residents associations or some form of voluntary co-operation. The Council will continue to assist residents in maintaining the public open space. The level of assistance will be dependant on the availability of resources.
AR 6 To improve existing open space areas in housing developments that have been taken in-charge by the Council.
AR 7 To protect existing open spaces and recreational uses from encroachment by other unsuitable and incompatible uses.
AR 8 To prohibit the loss of existing public and private recreational open space unless alternative recreational facilities are provided at a suitable location.
AR 15 To identify and map all areas of designated open space within housing estates during the lifetime of this Local Area Plan and to amend the Local Area Plan accordingly.0 -
It will be very interesting to see how KCC plans to overcome the Planning act 2000, the County Development plan and the local area plan all in one fell swoop. Interesting and challenging times ahead. Just when they thought it was all over.0
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OTF, are you saying that maybe there is no need to bother with CRA and our neighbours could form a group and go directly to KCC ourselfs or maybe get a local councillor to represent us. It was never put to an agm that members of CRA could extend their gardens and I still have the written notice they circulated saying that residents could and should do nothing with the backlots. It would be great if we could represent ourselfs. Unless the new people on the association make it clear that they won't put up with the double standards of some committee members we probably are better off to form our own committee.0
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The backlots iniative is open to all residents of Castletown .
Your local representatvie will listen to your concerns and advise you on the best way to deal with this either as an individual or a group .
Here are the representatives of the Celbridge Area :
Kevin Byrne byrnekevin1@eircom.net 086-6009449
Senan Griffin griffins@eircom.net 01-6285177 and 087-2331267
Paul Kelly paul.kelly@pkelly.ie 01-6243624, 01-6280382, 086- 2560548
John McGinley jmcginley@eircom.net 01-6285293
Catherine Murphy murphycatherine1@eircom.net 087-2696450
Colm Purcell cpurcelllabour@eircom.net 087-25394930 -
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I remember seeing that notice but will have to check to see if I still have a copy.
In an ideal world where the residents were united one representative could bring our proposals to KCC. This would be KCC's preferred option. However at this point in time that does not seem feasible and this is why I would urge people to contact the local representative of their choice.
Remember the elected representatives will have to approve whatever proposals are brought to KCC. Therefore they need to know how all the residents feel about this.They can only vote on what is brought to them. Forward any or all information to your councillor so he/she can make an informed decision on your behalf.0 -
Whatever your feelings are about the CRA I would urge you and your neighbours to attend the meetings . Get the information you need . Make your decisions and act on those decisions.
Use this as an opportunity to influence the decision making process in a positive way.
Obviously you feel strongly about this smar. Harness those feelings and use them in a powerful positive way.0 -
Fire/fly, do you think that we can achieve anything by staying outside CRA? If Second or Fire fly could let us know that this is a new committee and none of the current members are people who extended their gardens along the orchard, I could try and get my neighbours to go to the egm, Fire/fly surely to be fair to the current committee members you could confirm this, and clear up this issue. I want to get my neighbours to work with me and get my back lot sorted.0
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You could ring the CRA and ask them to clarify this for you.0
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Iwould be happier if they would come on the forum and just give a yes or no to the question . They have after all posted on this thread and I hope that they don't pull the shutters down now .
They should be very glad to post that no current members have taken in open green space. Second said there is a new commitee. I am happy to move on with a new committee , and so would my neighbours be ( I think)
I am just waiting on them to confirm.If they don't then it is very disappointing and the same old story. We will ring a local councillor as you suggested. I am sure that they will be glad to post the answer as this thread has a lot of hits and it would openly clear up the issue.0 -
AFAIK the old committee was re-elected unopposed at the AGM. Smar getting your backlot sorted can be achieved it is up to you to decide how you go about it. Most of my neighbours have differing views but like it or lump it we have to come together at some point if we are ever going to move forward on this. As with any dispute all relevant parties have to communicate at some stage if resolution is to be found.0
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Fire/fly, do you think that we can achieve anything by staying outside CRA? If Second or Fire fly could let us know that this is a new committee and none of the current members are people who extended their gardens along the orchard, I could try and get my neighbours to go to the egm, Fire/fly surely to be fair to the current committee members you could confirm this, and clear up this issue. I want to get my neighbours to work with me and get my back lot sorted.
Busy thread ! No use asking me Smar. I've not got answers for you - just information that I find. You are dead right though about getting your neighbours together to get it sorted - I think that's what is trying to be achieved though ??? I dont' join any backlot ( thankfully ! ) but if I did and there was something like this organised to deal with it - I'd damn well be going !0 -
It would appear thet KCC recognises the need for and value of open spaces within the community. This can be seen from the Draft County Development plan 2011- 2017 which would seem to be a continuum of the 2005-2011 plan.
Draft County Development Plan 2011 – 2017
Landscape, Recreation and Amenities Chapter 14-21
14.11.4 Recreation and Amenity
It is the policy of the Council:
RA 2: To prohibit the development of areas
zoned open space amenity or areas which
have been indicated in a previous planning
application as being open space.
RA 3: To avoid the loss of an existing amenity or
recreational facility through any
development proposal, unless:
(i) The facility or amenity was established
as an interim use pending the completion
of an improved or satisfactory replacement
facility,
or
(iii) Satisfactory alternative provision can be
made by the applicant prior to the
commencement of development.
14.11.3 Open Space
OS 3: To preserve, manage and maintain to a
high standard the existing public parks and
open spaces in the county.
14.11.8 Children’s Play Areas
RAO 3: To designate or zone, through the Local
Area Plan process, suitable active and
passive open space in all settlements,
commensurate with their existing and
future needs.
Social, Community and Cultural Development 11.15
SCO 4: To develop open spaces throughout the
county which will encourage a range of
recreational and amenity activities that will
cater for both active and passive
recreation.
I hope they are as consistent when making their decisions in relation to the backlots.0 -
The current initiative by KCC to close the back lots would seem to be at variance with their stated aims, objectives and policies for the 12 year period 2005-20170
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I have to say I've been following this thread with great interest. While I do not back onto a backlot I live near one and have had my share of troubles with them over the years.
I was confused what the CRA's involvement was in all this, so I contacted them myself. This is what I found out.
There is an information meeting on Thursday in the Mill where the KCC will answer any questions regarding the backlots.
The meeting in the Glenroyal is only being facilitated by the CRA. They have organised the venue and have got an independent chairman to chair the meeting.
I was asked to remind as many people as possible to attend this meeting. The more people who turn up the better, they hope to be able to get a majority view of the estate.
Basically if you're not in you can't win. If only people who want the backlots closed off turn up, then you can't say "I didn't want that" if you don't turn up and have your say.
I urge everyone on this forum to show up. I have to say I was quite happy with the response I got from them and will definitely be there!!!!0
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