KCC/Castletown backlots.

Fire_fly

smar wrote: »

Fire/fly surely to be fair to the current committee members you could confirm this, and clear up this issue. I want to get my neighbours to work with me and get my back lot sorted.

Hi Smar, I posted on this forum firstly because I was really annoyed at what posters where saying about the work done by the CRA and it's members and secondly to express my own views and opinions not that of the CRA. If I crossed that line somewhere I apologies to all..

Me, myself...I want the KCC to take proper ownership of our green areas and put a bit of effort into trying to utilize them and make them work before they decide to wash there hands of them.. there are a few perfect for allotments and one big enough for a very decent play area for children on this estate..

As stated before the EGM will have an independent facilitator to chair the meeting after that it's everybody's personal choice to attend or not.

Raven/OTF I think you have both posted some very interesting information here today, cheers.

smar

firefly,
You did mention in an earlier post that you are a member of the CRA, and you obviously have put in a great deal of work regaing the backlots. It should be possible for you to know from the small residents Association committee via a text if any of the current members have extended their gardens. Surely as this is the area that you are woking in you are entitled to know, and as residents so are we.
Why would you not be able to find out and let the residents know? If it is posted here for all to see, I think most residents would feel that this committee has credibility and is open . A private phone call is not an open forum, and if I post what was said I could be making it up as I go along. It is a simple question and I would please just like an answer.

The Raven.

On the fence wrote: »

The current initiative by KCC to close the back lots would seem to be at variance with their stated aims, objectives and policies for the 12 year period 2005-2017

That is no surprise :rolleyes:!! They granted Planning permission for the Donaghcumper development, which blatantly contravenes a notable amount of the objectives of the Celbridge Local Area Plan, the County Development Plan, the Action Area Plan, the Regional Guidelines, the Granada Convention and totally ignored the advice of their own Architectural Conservation Officer.

The document on the link below needs careful scrutiny. It strikes me that KCC have already made up their minds to hand over the green open spaces to the adjacent residents, which include a couple of members of the CRA committee!

http://castletownresidentsassociation.com/doc/Clarification_Notes_14th_May_20.pdf

It suits KCC to do this as they will no longer have to carry out their stated objectives of maintaining these areas as they are obliged to do.

soulsearcher

The Raven. wrote: »

The document on the link below needs careful scrutiny. It strikes me that KCC have already made up their minds to hand over the green open spaces to the adjacent residents, which include a couple of members of the CRA committee!

http://castletownresidentsassociation.com/doc/Clarification_Notes_14th_May_20.pdf

It suits KCC to do this as they will no longer have to carry out their stated objectives of maintaining these areas as they are obliged to do.

That may well be the case but people are still being given the chance to make up their own minds before any decision is made.
If people stay away from the meetings they can hardly complain afterards if they don't like the outcome.

smar

Firefly, You gave info on this forum and I simply asked for more info , not the views of CRA. People can make up their own minds reading this , if as a resident I have had any luck in getting an answere to a simple question .

In my view it has been shown on this thread that there are questions regarding the election of CRA committe.

There are questions regarding the inappropriate actions of current members ( extending gardens while being mebers of CRA and being allowed to stay on the current committe)

The inability of Firefly to answer a question just on a point of info posed by a resident,

CRA is not open and transparent , is not democratic and I and my neighbours will now deal directly with KCC and our local councillors,

Firefly all of this is not your fault , but the fault of a few within the club.

Beruthiel

The Raven. wrote: »

Unfortunately it is the ‘working away in the background’ in this instance that is a major part of the problem. The CRA claim to be ‘open and transparent’, yet the very person who was supposed to be representing Castletown residents to KCC regarding the backlots (still holding that position, according to the website), appears to have helped himself to part of the green open space

If that is the case, then the CRA has lost any credibility it had with me.
If you are going to position yourself as spokes person for the rest of us, you've got to be seen to have integrity.

Is there a point of contact in KCC who we can get in touch with directly?

The Raven.

soulsearcher wrote: »

That may well be the case but people are still being given the chance to make up their own minds before any decision is made.
If people stay away from the meetings they can hardly complain afterards if they don't like the outcome.

Soulsearcher, of course you are right. It is vital that everybody goes to the meetings to get as much information as possible, and not just sit back and leave it to a few. That is what has been happening and the consequences are plain to see!

The Raven.

Beruthiel wrote: »

Is there a point of contact in KCC who we can get in touch with directly?

Beruthiel, if you go to the meeting this coming Thursday 20th May, at The Mill between 7 pm and 9 pm, there will be an 'official' from KCC to answer your queries. Let's see what he/she has to say first.

Fire_fly

smar wrote: »

The inability of Firefly to answer a question just on a point of info posed by a resident.
CRA is not open and transparent , is not democratic and I and my neighbours will now deal directly with KCC and our local councillors,
Firefly all of this is not your fault , but the fault of a few within the club.

Smar, I wont answer a question I don't correctly know the answer to.. but I have asked and here is what I was told...

The green area in question was fenced off some years ago, approved at higher level than CRA level at the time, in an attemped to tackle anti-social behaviour. Yes a committee member is one of a few households that adjoin this area.
But this backlot is on the map and is subject to decisions in the same manner as all other backlots...

I was involved in the coppins green area which is a pilot scheme, this area has been cleaned out, a fence has been errected to stop people climbing in over the paint factory wall and a gate was also put on the entrance to this area, the gate is open from morning to evening and the surrounding residents have keys..this was done with the help of the CRA...


Otf.. quoted : Kcc gave you a report in Feb . You wait until now and give us less than 2 weeks to make a detailed submission. This is an appaling insult to residents.

The report re Backlots/Green areas was received by the CRA in April...it was in the hands of the local area Councillors not ours...maybe Smar you can take that up with them when you are dealing with them..

As for me, I'm signing out.. I signed up for this to keep the estate looking as it should, to try and clean up areas that belong to all of us and to reduce speeding on the estate..not for the rest of this crap... I'm off to pay my €25 club fees and sow my club badge to my ass so the rest of the residents can use it as target practice whilst I sweep the estates roads...

There's no going forward whilst looking back..
I wish you all luck in your fight with the KCC over this land..

smar

firefly I have no doubt but you have done great work. The question was have current members of the CRA extended their gardens. If you can't get an answer to that you probably are right not to bother with them as you and I are entitled to know, If they did the pity is they are the ones that should step aside and let people like you work with on a committe that has integrity. It would appear obvious that they have extended as if not they would be only too glad to say tnat they had not. It is your choice to stay with them and try and sort this out . You should not have to deal with this crap, from CRA.

Fire_fly

smar wrote: »

firefly I have no doubt but you have done great work. The question was have current members of the CRA extended their gardens. If you can't get an answer to that you probably are right not to bother with them as you and I are entitled to know, If they did the pity is they are the ones that should step aside and let people like you work with on a committe that has integrity. It would appear obvious that they have extended as if not they would be only too glad to say tnat they had not. It is your choice to stay with them and try and sort this out . You should not have to deal with this crap, from CRA.

Smar, it's up to the KCC to sort these areas and there issues out now..I hope you and your neighbours make your points heard to them loud and clear..but I believe we stand a better chance as residents fighting together rather than in fractious little groups..

I'm not getting crap from the CRA..I'm signing out of the crap on this form..and before you all jump on me, my point is this..dragging up what has been done (right and wrong) in the past will not help any of us progress on this matter...and surely we all want progress on this issue, the issue of the green areas in our estate...

soulsearcher

Fire_fly wrote: »

Smar, it's up to the KCC to sort these areas and there issues out now..I hope you and your neighbours make your points heard to them loud and clear..but I believe we stand a better chance as residents fighting together rather than in fractious little groups..

Celbridge Local Area Plan 2010
4.2 Taking Estates in Charge
Once the estate is in charge it will be a matter for the residents of the estate to organise and arrange for the management and maintenance of the public open spaces in the estate. This could be done either through the residents associations or some form of voluntary co-operation. The Council will continue to assist residents in maintaining the public open space. The level of assistance will be dependant on the availability of resources.

Dave Kenny is the point of contact in KCC and all the Celbridge Area Councillors are up to date on this issue.
KCC's main responsibilty in this is dealing with the legal and planning aspects of the change of use/ownership of the disputed backlots.

On the fence

Fire_fly wrote: »

The green area in question was fenced off some years ago, approved at higher level than CRA level at the time, in an attemped to tackle anti-social behaviour. Yes a committee member is one of a few households that adjoin this area.
But this backlot is on the map and is subject to decisions in the same manner as all other backlots...

..

If it is subject to decisions in the same manner as the other backlots it cannot have been approved at any level. Planning permission was never granted for this area.
Neither KCC nor the CRA could approve this without following proper planning procedure.
If you look closely at the map you will see that 8 houses adjoin the area in question. It is difficult to see behind the fence exactly what way the land has been divided between these 8 property owners.

Seconds Away

Thanks to Kildare Co. Co. and the Councillors for their construcive advice at last nights meeting. On the face of it the way has been paved for a reasonably acceptable and long overdue outcome to the thorny issue.
After speaking to these people I am convinced that they are genuinely doing their best to finalise this matter to the satisfaction of all concerned.
The route chosen may not have been ideal but nonetheless the goal is now within our grasp.
Go raibh míle maith agaibh go léir.

second

I also think it was great to see the County Council official was there to answer questions and also that some Councillors showed up too. In fairness, and to balance it, I also think credence should be shown to the residents assoc. for calling for it and organising it. I was actually surprised to see how many little backlot areas there were. The process that the two sides seem to have worked out together seems to be about as even pegged as it probably can be although it will still be a complicated process by the looks of it !
Fair play to them all - I'm a lot more equipped now !

Altered state of mind

Credence and CRA in the one sentence what a strange sense of humour you have.

On the fence

The CRA have a neck like the proverbial jockey’s nether regions.

KCC propose giving away land that belongs to all of us for a pittance. Whilst the CRA, the same CRA that collects annual subscriptions and had an end of year surplus, the same CRA that has members serving on its committee who have already fenced off land for themselves wants us to make further contributions to “defray the cost”. Then some joker asks us to give credence to the CRA.

KCC asked for a vote, why not ask them for a contribution. Then when you make your submission you can suggest that they sell the land to recoup the cost. Or ask for a contribution from those who have already taken some of the open spaces that once belonged to us all.

I notice that the CRA will be checking the bona fides of the residents. Can someone tell me who is checking the bona fides of the CRA.

Generally speaking, bona fides implies the absence of all fraud and unfair dealing or acting. In this sense, bona fides, that is, the absence of all fraud, whether the fraud consists in simulation or dissimulation, is a necessary ingredient in all contracts.
Good faith, or in Latin bona fides (bona fide means "in good faith"), is good, honest intention (even if producing unfortunate results) or belief. In law, it is the mental and moral state of honesty, conviction as to the truth or falsehood of a proposition or body of opinion, or as to the rectitude or depravity of a line of conduct. This concept is important in law, especially equitable matters.[1

second

Oh my God lads ! I don't know what 'real' personal vendettas you have against these people but it's now quite boring and repetitive. I also resent being more or less called a joker for expressing my views.
I think you both need to grow up a little bit, forget whatever 'war' you have with these people and move on - you'll give yourselves ulcers otherwise !
Why do you attack them for running a surplus - maybe they have uses for it ?
Why would you attack them for trying to defray the costs that have gone into this ?
If something happened about whatever backlot you're talking about, well it seems as if every one of them is up on the list and will be dealt with so what does it matter now ?
Spill the beans lads - what's really going on with you two.
Actually, don't answer - I don't care. I only came on here because I though it was an interesting topic but now you have just made it quite annoying.

Seconds Away

KCC have asked us to vote on this and when that vote is cast they will act accordingly, a simple enough procedure in Irish society.
It is unfortunate that the CRA have found themselves stuck in the middle of this as they are a somewhat unnecessary complication.
There seems little doubt that KCC are driving this in the right direction and you can be damn sure that the elected Councillors will do everything in their power to have this resolved to the satisfaction of the people who voted for them.
At the end of the day this is going to be decided between KCC and the people of Castletown.
Aim higher guys , swat the gnats out of your way then you can hit the real target and achieve your goal.
Is fearr súil romhat ná dhá shúil i do dhiaidh.

On the fence

second wrote: »

I think you both need to grow up a little bit, forget whatever 'war' you have with these people and move on - you'll give yourselves ulcers otherwise !
QUOTE]
Interesting choice of words.

Jerome J. Citrome - Medicine as Metaphor in the Middle English ...
by JJ Citrome - 2001 - Cited by 2 - Related articles
As such, ulcers are a fitting metaphor for the blemishes, caused by moral corruption, that must be excised from the soul. The following passage from the ...
muse.jhu.edu/journals/chaucer_review/v035/35.3citrome.html

Seconds Away

Love 'em or loathe 'em and as much as they bug me, I have to hand it to KCC they are as shrewd as snakes. If I could sum up tonights performance in the Glenroyal in two words I would say "Absolute magic."

An té a bhfuil builín aige gheobhaidh sé scian lena ghearradh.

On the fence

Well seconds now that the die is cast I hope KCC will follow through on this and that the proposals that will be brought to the Council will be accepted.

The favoured option on each green area was carried by a substantial majority of voters.

The people have spoken now the Council must act.

Altered state of mind

Kudos to that union guy Frank from KCC . He should receieve a bonus for getting a result on the night. He even managed to inject some humour into the proceedings.

Beruthiel

On the fence wrote: »

Well seconds now that the die is cast I hope KCC will follow through on this and that the proposals that will be brought to the Council will be accepted.

The favoured option on each green area was carried by a substantial majority of voters.

The people have spoken now the Council must act.

What were the final decisions?

On the fence

Area 4 No change.
Area 5 Closed and divided amongst the residents backing onto it.
Area 7 Closed off and divided amongst the residents backing onto it.
Area 8 Closed off and divided amongst the residents backing onto it.
Area 9 Closed off and divided amongst the residents backing onto it.
Area 10 Closed off and divided amongst the residents backing onto it.
Area 11 Not completely decided as majority favour closure but that option may not yet be available.

There was no vote allowed on the other 7 areas.

On the fence

111 ballot sheets
Area 4 53 in favour of keeping it open .
Area 5 75 in favour of closure.
Area 7 62 in favour of closure
Area 8 74 in favour of closure
Area 9 90 in favour of closure
Area 10 85 in favour of closure.
Area 11 78 in favour of closure or other feasible arrangement.


Presumably KCC will publish the full details of the ballot.

On the fence

There were 3 people from the floor elected to act as representatives of the residents and one person from the CRA elected to act in an advisory capacity.

The Raven.

All of the backlots (except no. 11) were voted on in favour of being closed and the land divided up and given to the residents backing on to these areas (option . No surprise there! Number 11 has drains which have to be maintained by KCC. Consequently they voted to either close them or some other arrangement.

All the other areas are green open spaces also but are not backlots. The majority of votes for the Orchard Walk were to keep it open as a green open space (option A). There should never have been an option on this green area as it is the remaining part of the attendant grounds of the Walled Gardens Orchard Wall, a Protected Structure, and a pathway and amenity area used by residents of the estate.

I have put together the database below showing the voting results. To the best of my knowledge it is accurate according to the information given verbally on the night. If anyone thinks otherwise feel free to say so.

The information that was circulated to the houses gives the explanation of what the option letters A,B,C,D,E etc. mean. There were extra E options (E1 & E2 etc.) There is too much information to include in this post, unless someone wants to summarize it.

Backlot no. Location Options Vote 1 Vote 2 Vote 3 vote 4 vote 5 vote 6 Majority Number of Votes
1 Large Castletown Woods Area None
2 Walled Gardens Small Arched Exit A
3 Walled Gardens Exit near North Entrance inside The Hole in the Wall A
4 Orchard Walk, from The Drive to the Gazebo between The Walled Gardens & The Elms A,C,E A 53 C 38 E 3 A 53 94
5 Between The Elms & The Drive A,B,C,D,E A 10 B 75 C 9 D 3 B 75 97
6 The Lawns/Avenue T-junction A
7 Between The Avenue & Cedarwood A,B,C,D,E A 8 B 62 C 18 D 5 E 3 E2 26 B 62 122
8 Off The Coppins, behind The oaks A,B,C,E A 7 B 74 C 2 E 1 E1 1 E2 22 B 74 107
9 Behind The Oaks, off The Drive A,B,C,E A 10 B 90 D 3 E2 5 B 90 108
10 Between The Drive, The Avenue & The Willows A,B,C,D,E A 7 B 85 C 8 D 1 E 26 B 85 127
11 Between The Avenue, The Woodlands & Cherrywood A,C,D,E B 20 B/E 58 C 5 D 5 E 3 B/E 85 91
12 Rowan Close Small Exit to The Mound A
13 Castletown Court Small Exit to The Mound A
14 Beside The Mound near Castletown Gates A
Total 746

On the fence

Thanks for the those details Raven. When will the details of the proposals for each area be published.
I have difficulty getting to Naas during KCC opening hours, does anybody know if the map referred to is available online.
Will KCC be responsible for the areas that are being kept as open spaces.
If they are when are they going to remove the ivy from the Ochard wall before it collapses.

soulsearcher

I think those maps are available from the CRA
If I remember correctly the proposals will be ready by the 28th of May.
Can't help with your other questions.