Female Circumcision & MPAC

oceanclub

Liam Egan of MPAC.ie is currently attempting to lobby Ivana Bacik of the Labour Party to legalise some forms of female genital mutilation (FGM):

http://mpac.ie/2010/05/05/conflating-fgm-with-circumcision-is-an-infringment-on-religion/

His argument appears to be: removal of the clitoris is bad, removal of the clitoral hood is "noble". He claims it is a "a practice our Holy Prophet said was commendable", but doesn't quote Mohammed's words, but Al-Tabarani (presumably this fellow?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabarani

However, according to the World Health Organization, removal of the clitoral hood is still considered to be Type I FGM (female genital mutilation), presumably since removing it reduced sensitivity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Type_I

"the following subdivisions are proposed: Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only"

Any thoughts on Liam's "campaign"? Is there any consensus on this issue?

P.

wes

Wow, he is truly off his rocker on this one, and has gone way to far.

FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) has nothing to do with Islam. Having said that in North Africa, the people there do invoke there Religion (be it Islam, Christianity or Animist), and the Hadith Egan (undoubtedly) invokes is bull **** to put it nicely. It was created (the Hadith) long after the time of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh to justify this deplorable and harmful practice. The Hadith in question is widely considered to be inauthentic, and the practice only seem to be in parts of Africa, where a Religious reason was created to justify it.

There have been several Fatwa from clerics, in Egypt, Somalia and Mauritania (where FGM is common) from Islamic Scholars, expressly banning the practice.

Anyone campaigning for this practice, is nothing short of dangerous. This practice needs to be irradiated, and anyone trying to promote it needs to be challenged fiercely, and expose for there dangerous idiocy. The practice is nothing short of shameful, dangerous, harmful and stupid, and to ban it, is the only sane thing to do.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

Anyone campaigning for this practice, is nothing short of dangerous. This practice needs to be irradiated, and anyone trying to promote it needs to be challenged fiercely.

On that note, I did write a letter about Egan to the editor of Metro Eireann about him. I didn't ask for him to removed, mind, but that at least another Muslim columnist should be included to offer a counterview.

The editor rang me and while saying that he couldn't remove Egan, he was open to the idea of a counterview. So if anyone out there feels like being a columnist, let me know!

P.

rock chic

this man liam egan is 1 sick f*cker f.g.m is nothing to do with the islamic beliefs its an ancient tribal cultural practice that can cause death this country should outlaw this barbaric practice like the u.k anf france an any1 found to be sending their daughter female relative abroad for this barbaric practice should be prosecuted

irishconvert

There are a lot of nut cases in this world and Egan is definitely one.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

There are a lot of nut cases in this world and Egan is definitely one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8H4IC9ttIU

P.

oceanclub

Liam's now trying to give me a female anatomy lesson over on MPAC.ie.

Now, I don't wish to sound like Randy Pan the Goatboy, but I reckon I might know a wee bit more about this than him.

P.

wes

oceanclub wrote: »

Now, I don't wish to sound like Randy Pan the Goatboy, but I reckon I might know a wee bit more about this than him.

I don't think that would be hard to be honest....

oceanclub

Needless to say, Liam censored my last comment (he always has to get the last word in a conversation) so I include it here for posterity:

Your desire to conflate the two speaks volumes and simply highlights your anti-Muslim agenda."

A supposed "agenda" that most Muslims agree with. Indeed, 27 African nations are bringing in an anti-FGM law.

"your very visible hatred of Islam."

*sigh* Again, you conflate yourself with your religion. Not that I actually hate you, mind; I think you might be projecting your detestation of "kuffir" onto me. I actually pity you more, Liam.

"Again I notice you have completely sidelined the issue of choice and chosen not to reply to the argument of consent."

Believe it or not, Liam, but you are not allowed to go into a hospital and ask them to cut arbitrary bits off you. The principle of "consent" doesn't come into it.

You're trying to argue there's no difference between having a functional body part pierced and _actually removing it_. It's a ridiculous comparison. Based on this "logic", I should be within my right to ask hospitals to remove my ears, nipples or penis, and it is discrimination not to allow it.

At the end of the day, having a man - a man who has previously said he would like the opportunity to whip misbehaving women - leading a campaign to allow women to sexually multilate themselves is like something out of a grand guignol story.

P.

P.

hivizman

wes wrote: »

I don't think that would be hard to be honest....

This will probably have me branded as an "ignoramus", like Wes on the mpac.ie website, but the following discussion of female "circumcision" (genital mutilation - FGM) from a Muslim women-oriented site is interesting:

Is Female Circumcision Required?

It refers to the same hadiths as those quoted by mpac.ie (though it suggests that the hadith reported by Al-Tabarani "Circumcision is a commendable [sunnah] act for men and an honourable act for women" is "weak"), to make the case that Islam does not require FGM. However, the document goes further, to challenge the view that the hadiths provide support for the argument that at least some aspect of FGM is permissible, by appealing to one of the general principles of Sharia, that anything otherwise permitted that is known to be harmful becomes forbidden. The suggestion is that even the "mild" form of FGM that Muhammad approved (or at least did not explicitly disapprove) is now known to be harmful, whether this is a physical harm or a psychological harm.

I have a sort of sneaking appreciation for way in which mpac.ie is trying to present this as an argument over freedom of choice, where there is evidence that some action or behaviour that does not relate to the practice of worship has been approved (or not positively disapproved) by Muhammad. However, I consider that the harm of all forms of FGM has been well established not just by secular but also by many Muslim scholars. Although there is sometimes a tendency for pious Muslims to believe that Muhammad was infallible (see for example How about the infallibility of the Prophet Muhammad?), Muhammad himself admitted that he could get things wrong about secular matters:

Once Prophet Muhammad came across some people doing artificial pollination of palm trees. Due to some reason he disliked the idea and commented that it would be better not to do any pollination at all. However for the following year the harvest was poor. When he came to know about this Prophet Muhammad admitted his limitation of knowledge regarding secular affairs and said: “If a question relates to your worldly matters, you would know better about it, but if it relates to your religion, then to me it belongs.” (Musnad Ahmad, hadith no. 12086; and Sunan Ibn Maja, hadith no. 2462)

Source: http://www.muslimliving.org/faith/bidah.htm

And as oceanclub rightly suggests, when something is harmful, then issues of "freedom of choice" and "consent" carry much less weight than the considered views of those who "would know better about it" than Muhammad.

wes

hivizman wrote: »

This will probably have me branded as an "ignoramus", like Wes on the mpac.ie website, but the following discussion of female "circumcision" (genital mutilation - FGM) from a Muslim women-oriented site is interesting:

Its best to not care what MPAC.ie say. They have decided to be as extreme as possible, so they will lash out at anyone and everyone. They in no way shape or form, represent any kind of main steam form of Islam, and will attack anyone and everyone who disagree's. We should all remember that MPAC.ie are a very small group, and they are good at making noise, and nothing else.

oceanclub

wes wrote: »

We should all remember that MPAC.ie are a very small group, and they are good at making noise, and nothing else.

Unfortunately, they are very good at making noise. As mentioned Liam has a column in Metro Eireann these days, and the editor Chinedu Onyejelem - feels there is nothing he can do about this (strange POV for an editor...).

I did mail Ivana Bacik to give her more info on MPAC and Liam, and from what she said, she hadn't realised quite what a niche body it was (although she did suspect).

P.

I Drink It Up!

I think Bacik is to blame as much as Egan.

Egan is a moron.

But Bacik is a Trinity lecturer who promotes the legalization of the killing of unborn children.

If she got her own act together then people like Egan would be bereft of a platform, at least one as high profile.

oceanclub

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

If she got her own act together then people like Egan would be bereft of a platform

I have no idea what this means. Perhaps you can expand.

P.

I Drink It Up!

oceanclub wrote: »

I have no idea what this means. Perhaps you can expand.

P.

Bacik attracts attention with her profoundly gruesome views on the nature of the unborn child. She is also a bit naieve, and prone to giving too much time to the opinions of others whom she feels are misunderstood or marginalized.

oceanclub

I Drink It Up! wrote: »

Bacik attracts attention with her profoundly gruesome views on the nature of the unborn child.

Ivana Bacik's views on abortion are pretty much the European standard and in no way that bizarre. And I still have no idea what they have to do with Liam Egan; he barely mentions her, reserving most of his ire for Ruairi Quinn.

P.

I Drink It Up!

oceanclub wrote: »

Ivana Bacik's views on abortion are pretty much the European standard and in no way that bizarre. And I still have no idea what they have to do with Liam Egan; he barely mentions her, reserving most of his ire for Ruairi Quinn.

P.

Killing an unborn child in the interests of self-convenience is bizarre.

mcmoustache

I had a look at the mpac site and this thread and I have to ask:

Who listens to this guy?

Let me elaborate. Judging by the thread, this Egan chap is quite unpopular among moderate Muslims. I might even go so far as to suggest that he and his views are an embarrassment. What I find odd is the loudness of his voice. Why is it that when the media needs a "Muslim perspective", they drag up this hateful chap? It's as if he has convinced editors that he is "The Irish Muslim Voice"(TM). A non-muslim would get the impression that he has some kind of mandate (Omid Djalili's joke about Abu Hamza comes to mind).

What I'm getting at is, are his views popular? I must admit that I've met quite a few Muslims in life but I've never heard his extreme views being promoted. Is it just that the media likes to associate Islam with these characters? I just don't understand how this guy gets such a loud platform.

mehfesto

mcmoustache wrote: »

I had a look at the mpac site and this thread and I have to ask:

Who listens to this guy?

Let me elaborate. Judging by the thread, this Egan chap is quite unpopular among moderate Muslims. I might even go so far as to suggest that he and his views are an embarrassment. What I find odd is the loudness of his voice. Why is it that when the media needs a "Muslim perspective", they drag up this hateful chap? It's as if he has convinced editors that he is "The Irish Muslim Voice"(TM). A non-muslim would get the impression that he has some kind of mandate (Omid Djalili's joke about Abu Hamza comes to mind).

What I'm getting at is, are his views popular? I must admit that I've met quite a few Muslims in life but I've never heard his extreme views being promoted. Is it just that the media likes to associate Islam with these characters? I just don't understand how this guy gets such a loud platform.

There's a comedian who talked about something like this before. He said if that's what you take of Muslims (flag burning lunatics), it'd be like going to the Grandmarshal of the KKK and believing him to be the "voice of the West".

He who shouts loudest gets heard. Especially if his views fit in with the stereotypical view of Muslims as 'outsiders' (i.e. attaching 'filth' to them, preventing normalisation, making them the 'other', etc.). It's poxy, but that's what sells papers.

"Muslims are actually cool people, really" won't sell the Daily Mail!

mcmoustache

mehfesto wrote: »

There's a comedian who talked about something like this before. He said if that's what you take of Muslims (flag burning lunatics), it'd be like going to the Grandmarshal of the KKK and believing him to be the "voice of the West".

Yeah.
That's from Omid Djalili, the Iranian/English comedian. There are crazy extremists everywhere but only the Islamic ones seem to get on tv. It's as if we expect Muslims to be extreme.

DinoBot

well I have yet to find a reference where the prophet has banned the practice of female circumcision. I have spoke with the Iman in south circular and clonskeagh on this subject and they BOTH were in agreement that this practice is NOT haram.

Surly if its not haram it cannot be banned? [Islamiclly speaking....is that even a word ]

Can some of the Muslims here who are against this practice please provide a source from scripture instead of a secular viewpoint ?

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

Can some of the Muslims here who are against this practice please provide a source from scripture instead of a secular viewpoint ?

Here you go:

From:
http://www.aligomaa.net/fatwacollection.html

1. Female Genital Mutilation (FGM)

In the name of God the all merciful

The international conference of scholars concerning a ban on abuse of the female body was held on 1st and 2nd Du al-Qi’dah 1427 of the Hijri, corresponding to the 22nd and 23rd November 2006, in the conference facilities at Al-Azhar University. An array of research work was presented. Once scientists, Islamic scholars, experts and activists from civil rights organisations in Egypt, Europe and Africa had been heard, the following recommendations were issued:

1. God gave people dignity. In the Qur’an God says: “We have dignified the sons of Adam”. Therefore, God forbids any harm coming to man, irrespective of social status and gender.

2. Genital circumcision is a deplorable, inherited custom, which is practiced in some societies and is copied by some Muslims in several countries. There are no written grounds for this custom in the Qur’an with regard to an authentic tradition of the Prophet.

3. The female genital circumcision practiced today harms women psychologically and physically. Therefore, the practice must be stopped in support of one of the highest values of Islam, namely to do no harm to another – in accordance with the commandment of the Prophet Mohammed “Accept no harm and do no harm to another”. Moreover, this is seen as punishable aggression against humankind.

4. The conference calls on Muslims to end this deplorable custom in accordance with the teachings of Islam, which forbid injuring another in any form.

5. The participants of the conference also called on international and religious institutions and establishments to concentrate their efforts on educating and instructing the population. This concerns particularly the basic rules of hygienic and medicine, which must be maintained for women so that this deplorable custom is no longer practiced.

6. The conference reminds the educational establishments and the media that they have an implicit duty to educate about the harm this custom brings and its devastating consequences for society. This will contribute to stopping the custom of mutilating the female body.

7. The conference calls on the legislative organs to pass a law, which bans the practice of this gruesome custom and declares it a crime, irrespective of whether this concerns the perpetrator or the initiator.

8. Furthermore, the conference calls on international institutions and organisations to provide help in all regions where this gruesome custom is practiced, which will contribute to its elimination.

Above bolding is mine.

DinoBot

Thanks!!!

Are these guys seen as the international voice of Islam must the same as the pope would be ? On this we might see a day when it is banned for boys as well ? There is a growing movement in the medical world to ban the practice on boys.

It looks like you could use the same argument of 'do no harm'

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

Are these guys seen as the international voice of Islam must the same as the pope would be ?

Islam has no equivalent to the pope.

DinoBot wrote: »

On this we might see a day when it is banned for boys as well ? There is a growing movement in the medical world to ban the practice on boys.

I honestly doubt it.

DinoBot wrote: »

It looks like you could use the same argument of 'do no harm'

Well not really, as no harm is really done, and there is even evidence that it does some good:
WHO agrees HIV circumcision plan

DinoBot

wes wrote: »

Islam has no equivalent to the pope.



I honestly doubt it.



Well not really, as no harm is really done, and there is even evidence that it does some good:
WHO agrees HIV circumcision plan

so its a Fatwa by some guy who nobody really listens too and is build on a fairly weak 'do no harm' argument. ok. I can see him having an uphill struggle there.

why was Allah silent on such an important topic but very loud on alcohol ?



This Fatwa tell me the opposite view

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886

"whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world"


On the male circumcision/mutilation issue, the link you showed has been rebutted. Please see youtube video as reference:

http://www.circumcisionandhiv.com/hiv_prevention/

wes

DinoBot wrote: »

so its a Fatwa by some guy who nobody really listens too and is build on a fairly weak 'do no harm' argument. ok. I can see him having an uphill struggle there.

Deary me, you are talking some nonsense. Me saying there is no equivalent to the Pope, doesn't mean he is just some random guy. Honestly, you just jumped to a pretty wrong headed conclusion, out of no where.

No, he is the Grand Mufti of Egypt, so no he is not just some random guy, and the site I linked to has his bloody title on it for crying out loud.

DinoBot wrote: »

This Fatwa tell me the opposite view

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Islamonline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543886

"whoever finds it serving the interest of his daughters should do it, and I personally support this under the current circumstances in the modern world"

Yes, Religous groups do have differences in opinion. Still, the Grand Mufti of Egypt kind of trumps a web site, that has basically fallen a part.

DinoBot wrote: »

Why was Allah silent on such an important topic but very loud on alcohol ?

Damned if I know, but not the topic we are discussing.

DinoBot

wes wrote: »

Deary me, you are talking some nonsense. Me saying there is no equivalent to the Pope, doesn't mean he is just some random guy. Honestly, you just jumped to a pretty wrong headed conclusion, out of no where.

No, he is the Grand Mufti of Egypt, so no he is not just some random guy, and the site I linked to has his bloody title on it for crying out loud.



Yes, Religous groups do have differences in opinion. Still, the Grand Mufti of Egypt kind of trumps a web site, that has basically fallen a part.



Damned if I know, but not the topic we are discussing.

Point got I guess I don't really understand the different hierarchy structure in Islam. I did check the website but the term "Grand Mufti " did not pull a response of authority for me, my mistake :)

Nodin

mcmoustache wrote: »

I had a look at the mpac site and this thread and I have to ask:

Who listens to this guy?

Islamophobes, Journos in search of a headline, and his relations at family gatherings.

oceanclub

Nodin wrote: »

Islamophobes, Journos in search of a headline, and his relations at family gatherings.

Here's my own tale of why journalists use Liam as copy:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64389494&postcount=34

I've posted before about how MPAC is filling a void left by other organizations failing to get their act together, leaving people to assume that MPAC is the voice of Irish Islam.

If you want further proof, I contacted a journalist who recently used Liam Egan as their only Muslim source in an article on polygamy, and asked why. His response is very interesting, I quote parts here:

I quoted Liam Egan as I wanted to get a Muslim voice in the piece.

I had approached the Islamic Cultural Centre for a comment about the case on Thursday and they had promised to respond by Friday. They failed to do so despite promising to do so when I contacted them again on Friday afternoon.

The MPAC represent a small number of Muslims and they were not my first choice. But given the Islam Cultural Centre had left me short I rang Liam on Saturday morning to get a Muslim perspective. I appreciate the MPAC can be very confrontational in their statements but if the established Muslim community fails to speak to the media they are leaving us with little choice but to seek comment elsewhere.

So there you go. The journalist added that if I knew of any organizations that he could contact in future, he should let me know. But unfortunately, I don't.

P.

P.
EDIT: It should also be added that it's not just what might be seen as right-wing tabloids that go to Liam for copy. Indeed, the only paper that he has a regular column in is the multicultural paper Metro Eireann.

P.

oceanclub

http://www.mpac.ie/ has now been down for a few weeks. Has Liam converted to Judaism/Scientology/Discordianism/United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing?

P.

hivizman

The last tweet on the MPAC.IE Twitter page was dated 3 June 2010, so the main website has been down for nearly three weeks.