Orwell/Lucan/Usher/UCD/Tiernans league race 6/5/10

Lumen

So, back to Brittas it is.

Looks like aidan_offbeat is marshalling.

Weather says it ought to be dry, but I'm sort of half hoping for a wet race to make things more interesting. Is this wrong?

Has Niceonetom been promoted to the SS yet?

blorg

Wet racing = hairy, slower and much higher possibility of crashes. I'd take dry any day, thanks.

Tom is in semi-scratch. He was promoted after the last win but was marshalling last week.

niceonetom

Yup, I'll be making my debut with the SS tonight -promoted to the point of incompetence (and beyond). It'll be interesting to see how different it feels from SL.

Which circuit will we be using tonight? Same as last time? Any possibility of a extra lap now that the light is there later?

Caroline_ie

I have agreed to Marshal tonight ( Poor form ) I will try and get a video of two of Tom's win and Lumen's 2nd place.

Lumen

Caroline_ie wrote: »

I have agreed to Marshal tonight ( Poor form ) I will try and get a video of two

Cool, I was thinking of bringing my new camera which does HD video. I have a tripod too. Maybe set it up at the finish line?

Caroline_ie

Lumen wrote: »

Cool, I was thinking of bringing my new camera which does HD video. I have a tripod too. Maybe set it up at the finish line?

depending on where they put me I can try and set it up without breaking anything ...

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Cool, I was thinking of bringing my new camera which does HD video. I have a tripod too. Maybe set it up at the finish line?

Haha, seriously, do that, I think we need it :pac:

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

Haha, seriously, do that, I think we need it :pac:

Considering there was an Orwell rider who placed two weeks ago and never claimed their points, I think there is.

DirkVoodoo

That was fun.

The limit group was a mixed bag, a good few people were willing to work but there were a few hangers on. It made rotations a bit messy instead of smooth so the speed was never really consistent and we only stayed away for just over a lap. Once semi-limit caught up though it got a lot more exciting. The pace went up (I actually managed to corner at speed, awesome!) but the numbers on the backroads made it hard to move around. In the end I was at the back of the main bunch (I think) but felt pretty good and I think overall it was a good day's work. There was a small crash and a bit of handbags between an Usher rider and a Lucan one at the end, something about overtaking on bends, but this was more or less happening everywhere with the large numbers.

I have achieved my objective and remained in limit for next week's hill TT. I am a big fish in a small pond.

Stats: Need a computer, come on my birthday!

dave.obrien

In the limit with Dirk too (both riding Ridley Orions actually...), dead right, there was maybe half the group working, very few consistently, but good fun. Once we were caught it went through the roof! Managed to finish middle of the main pack, but more through self preservation than skill, I reckon. First handicapped race down, still loving it!

This racing stuff, steep learning curve...

Lumen

Another exercise in utter mediocrity for me, but I felt dizzy and nauseous for a few minutes afterwards so I guess I got maximum value from it.

levitronix

so who got results ? any boardsies score points ?

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

Another exercise in utter mediocrity for me, but I felt dizzy and nauseous for a few minutes afterwards so I guess I got maximum value from it.

That's the spirit! Keep at it and in a few races you won't feel dizzy and nauseous any more!

bikenut

Club League Women: 1, V Considine (IRC); 2, O Tansey (Orwell); 3, A Collard (Orwell).

Club League Brittas: 1, P Dolan (IRC); 2, S Byrne (IRC); 3, M Kirby (Orwell); 4, G McNulty; 5, P O'Brien (Orwell); 6 S Lynch (IRC).

levitronix

blorg wrote: »

That's the spirit! Keep at it and in a few races you won't feel dizzy and nauseous any more!

you ll just feel like your head is spinning and kinda sick afterwards

blorg

levitronix wrote: »

you ll just feel like your head is spinning and kinda sick afterwards

Perhaps, but maybe you'll feel that way having come over the line first! My first placing I nearly blacked out.

DirkVoodoo

dave.obrien wrote: »

In the limit with Dirk too (both riding Ridley Orions actually...), dead right, there was maybe half the group working, very few consistently, but good fun. Once we were caught it went through the roof! Managed to finish middle of the main pack, but more through self preservation than skill, I reckon. First handicapped race down, still loving it!

This racing stuff, steep learning curve...

Ah didn't know that was you Dave. You were going very well, great level of work.

Just jealous of the Orion paint job, it looks much better than mine.

dave.obrien

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Ah didn't know that was you Dave. You were going very well, great level of work.

Just jealous of the Orion paint job, it looks much better than mine.

Thank you very much, on both counts! Very happy with the bike alright, gears still need a touch of tweaking but compared to my old trek 1200... well there's no comparison really. Was very tempted by your one, having never used campy, but stuck to what I knew in the end, plus the new Ultegra's quite nice!!!

There did seem to be three of us who were consistently coming through alright (no idea who the other guy was though) plus another three or four who were maybe every second turn. Couldn't help but laugh at my uncle, Paul, when he went up the road himself on the climb on the first lap, he's been racing for 25+ years, and it seemed like an oddly timed attempt at a break!

But holy hell, is it just me, or does everyone get massively hungry the day after a race?!

montac

Yep, I'm starving right now!
I enjoyed that last night. We did well in the Limit group - we'll have to go faster in future though! The last few kms were great fun - the speed was great.

Caroline_ie

I am usually not hungry after a race actually.

Lumen

What's the consensus on the handicapping last night?

I thought SL was working pretty well together, but from what Blorg was saying we still effectively got caught by SS/S early in the last lap but they hung back a few seconds until the bridge giving the false impression that we were keeping them at bay.

The up and overs in SL only really broke down when someone pushed too hard at the front or people stopped pulling through - often the front six or so would be rotating but behind that were riders trying to draft the rotation. That made it hard to judge "last man" and I had to keep looking back to work out whether someone was going to come through or not.

I can't really see any way to improve on that with a big group. The drafters are never going to want to stay well back out of the way, or else they'll lose the draft.

dave.obrien

The groups all seemed to come together in quick succession, is that what's supposed to happen with the handicap? The sl's caught us, and shortly after the right hand turn after coming off the main road we were caught by the ss's and then the s's after the bridge, I think... I have to say it was fun getting caught and upping the speed, but I can see the points advantage of the DMS's!

One thing I've noticed is the quality of the cornering and descending in the various groups, I had no problem on the flats, but just about hung in on those bits with a grim anxious feeling... I think it's a confidence thing, as I actually handled them fine, but wasn't as comfortable being at 45 degrees at 45km/h than more experienced heads!

Bonus points for the hill climb, I hear?

Lumen

dave.obrien wrote: »

The groups all seemed to come together in quick succession, is that what's supposed to happen with the handicap? The sl's caught us, and shortly after the right hand turn after coming off the main road we were caught by the ss's and then the s's after the bridge

My badly made point was that Blorg said SS/S were sitting behind us for ages before that, despite that fact that SL were working together pretty effectively from the start.

If a group can't stay away when it's trying properly, then there is no incentive to work at all - may as well sit up and wait for SS then try and cling on for the sprint. I'm not in favour of doing that, but it happens.

dave.obrien

Oh right, I understand. What were the handicaps? They are designed to make sure everyone does come back together though, weren't they? Is there maybe a case that the ss's and the s's didn't want to join the group at the bridge or before it cause of the corners, and the increased chance of an accident with the larger group and less experienced cyclists? I don't know, as I am hugely inexperienced myself, but just wondering out loud...

Lumen

dave.obrien wrote: »

Oh right, I understand. What were the handicaps? They are designed to make sure everyone does come back together though, weren't they? Is there maybe a case that the ss's and the s's didn't want to join the group at the bridge or before it cause of the corners, and the increased chance of an accident with the larger group and less experienced cyclists? I don't know, as I am hugely inexperienced myself, but just wondering out loud...

As I understand it, all efforts being equal the perfect handicap will result in the groups coming together just before the finish, which would inevitably mean that scratch or semi-scratch riders win, which is the right result.

Otherwise, whichever group puts in less effort should lose out.

I'm not moaning about the handicapping, just curious really. Wouldn't make any difference to me, as I can lose just as effectively in a DMS as in a handicap race.

dave.obrien

Haha, that's very zen of you! Ok, so was yesterdays handicapping not big enough for the l's and sl's? I thought that when the sl's caught us, the pace went up to a nice pace (fast, but manageable with a bit more effort and a lot of help!), and the group was still small enough to be manageable, it was when the rest caught us that things got a bit hairy for my liking, and the speed started to hurt. Again, it's probably my inexperience, and I'll be better equipped for it next time, I reckon.

blorg

I punctured 900m from the start at around 18:55 and so just missed the start of the race. Arrived at 19:15 and thought I'd get on to scratch maybe but everyone gone. Jumped in for the last lap. I jumped in to semi-limit by mistake; I wasn't sure if it was together or not at that point.

Jumping in like that you are not meant to contribute to the success of the group, or interfere with the race in any way. It is just for training and you can't place. So no sprinting for the finish or helping teammates etc. I only went up at the end as I thought there was another lap and the semi/scratch riders were breaking and I wanted to hang on the back of them.

Semi scratch caught on the run in, after the bridge. I wouldn't say they were hanging back. The speed in semi-limit was just very low compared to what we normally do in semi-scratch. I was seeing around the 35km/h mark on my Garmin while semi-scratch would generally be ~40km/h chasing. So they just caught up. Bear in mind that semi-scratch is better organised so while it IS harder it is a lot smoother.

Handicaps ideally come together right at the finish. Even when this happens the lower groups should still have a theoretical chance as the higher groups should be shagged from chasing. In practice this doesn't often happen; some riders in the higher groups rest before the catch and others are just plain stronger.

The lower groups still have a chance to stay away if they work though. This happened early in the league but already some of those strong and organised have been promoted. The semi-limit (and limit?) group seemed quite large; possibly you could have pushed the pace higher from the start, dropped people not up to it, and had a smoother organisation. A group of eight-ten strong riders is better than 25 of mixed ability.

I wouldn't say it is right that scratch/semi-scratch should win all handicaps. What would be the point of a handicap then! The lower groups have more than a fair chance but they really have to learn to work effectively together. But then learning how to race is what the club league is all about.

niceonetom

As regards the handicapping, I think it was just about right. The groups all came together after the second time across the bridge, which is pretty near the end really. It's impossible to predict the behavior of groups like this; some weeks a few motivated individuals can push the limit group to stay way, another week the scratch might drop the hammer and bring it all together early and start attacking off the front. Last night the SS were working fairly hard (it seemed to me anyway) and were within two-and-a-bit minutes of making the catch the first time over the finish line. Not sure what gap we started with, but it was more than that.

Once the hive-mind of the group seemed to be assured that they would make the catch the urgency wnet out of it slightly and the pace became more erratic (though still pretty fast at times). By the time we had about 8km or so to go we were within visual range of the SLs and the wisdom of groups kept the pace at a level where they would be brought back in time for a sprint but without the need for anyone to bin themselves on the front closing things down.

Avg speed last night was 42.2kmph which I think is a new high on that course for me. What was it for the SL? or L? I am reassured that my time in SL won't be just about trying not to get dropped though, which was a worry for me.

I didn't find it significantly harder than SL except perhaps for the sprinting out of the corners where it is a lot easier to get gapped. Riders seemed to be generally more predictable and the there was more communication in terms of flicking out a hand ask to be allowed into the line and stuff.

I didn't do enough to get myself up through the group before the catch and that left me with an awful lot of slower riders in front of me as we came to the rise. I was feeling pretty strong though, so even though I had no chance of getting up to the front by the top I thought I'd least practice getting through/around the bunch and finish it as strong as I could. One pooped looking tiernan's rider from either L or SL came back through the group zig-zagging all over and took the rider in front of me down (while getting away with it himself, as so often happens). That cooled my jets for a moment, but the blorg passed me and I knew that it wasn't time to ease off yet. I do like that finish.

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

Handicaps ideally come together right at the finish. Even when this happens the lower groups should still have a theoretical chance as the higher groups should be shagged from chasing. In practice this doesn't often happen; some riders in the higher groups rest before the catch and others are just plain stronger.

While the SS and S do average higher speeds to make the catch I really can't see that it would effect their chances in a sprint at the end - not over such a short course.

We really need a third lap in Britas I think.

Chips Lovell

I enjoyed last night's race. I realised recently that I get a great kick out of racing that just doesn't come from any other type of cycling. Even when I'm crap, I still get the endorphins for the next 24 hours.

Was pleased enough with how I went. I took my turns in the group and finished with the bunch.

One thing I was happy with was that I managed to get myself positioned well for the finish, something that has been a bit of concern for me recently. Far too often I've found myself too far back to make a go of things. I got up there near the front at the right time. While I wasn't able to go with the fast guys in the end, at least I know now I can get up there.

On the negative side, my cornering went to pieces. I took that right hander badly on both laps. First time around it didn't really matter, but the second time I found myself losing position and down near the back. I don't like that corner and I think I've started overthinking it.

I thought the semi-limit bunch worked better than last week, with more people contributing to the work. Having said that, it could still be a lot better. Part of the problem is people opting to sit on, but part of it is that some stronger riders are pushing too hard when they are near the front. That's all very well, but it means the weaker guys are losing their wheel and not able to come through and the rotation breaks down. In short, 10 seconds of hard riding is then undone when there's no one there to take it up. I found last night that when I moved out to the right to move up, taking it a bit easier and waiting to make sure someone was getting on my wheel meant that it held together a bit better.

The ideal handicap is when all the groups come together near the end and that pretty much happened last night. I was glad that semi-scratch and scratch didn't catch us before the bridge. The narrow roads in the final stretch after that meant it would be hard for them to swamp us if we drilled it. There was a bit of effort to keep the pace high and hold that off but a good few managed to get up nonetheless. A bit more organisation next time and we could do even better.

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

While the SS and S do average higher speeds to make the catch I really can't see that it would effect their chances in a sprint at the end - not over such a short course.

We really need a third lap in Britas I think.

That race was very short all right. If you had seen the state of some of the scratch riders finishing in the race Patrick Conlon won out of limit though... they were in feckin BITS trying to catch. I've rarely seen riders looking in that much pain. In practical terms though if the catch is made with a few km to go there will be opportunity for them to get themselves together. If it is made within the last 500-1,000m maybe not.

montac

niceonetom wrote: »

Avg speed last night was 42.2kmph which I think is a new high on that course for me. What was it for the SL? or L?

37.7kph for me in Limit. 42.2kph is a big jump alright.

niceonetom

blorg wrote: »

That race was very short all right. If you had seen the state of some of the scratch riders finishing in the race Patrick Conlon won out of limit though... they were in feckin BITS trying to catch. I've rarely seen riders looking in that much pain. In practical terms though if the catch is made with a few km to go there will be opportunity for them to get themselves together. If it is made within the last 500-1,000m maybe not.

And look where that got him. He's in SS now too. Ok, so he got a spell as league leader from it, but still.

But still, it's worth noting that anytime the L or SL stay away the strong riders that are responsible for that happening get removed from the group and put into the chasing pack. That pruning adds a whole new layer of complexity to the game. If anything, as the L gets smaller (and weaker), the handicap they're given should be even greater. Does this happen?

We need a game theorist.

Nietzschean

niceonetom wrote: »

And look where that got him. He's in SS now too. Ok, so he got a spell as league leader from it, but still.

But still, it's worth noting that anytime the L or SL stay away the strong riders that are responsible for that happening get removed from the group and put into the chasing pack. That pruning adds a whole new layer of complexity to the game. If anything, as the L gets smaller (and weaker), the handicap they're given should be even greater. Does this happen?

We need a game theorist.

The loss of the strong riders is probably needed to keep the pack at the same level as those behind get stronger from racing...though overall numbers getting too low i don't know if its come up?

Lumen

niceonetom wrote: »

But still, it's worth noting that anytime the L or SL stay away the strong riders that are responsible for that happening get removed from the group and put into the chasing pack. That pruning adds a whole new layer of complexity to the game. If anything, as the L gets smaller (and weaker), the handicap they're given should be even greater.

Freakishly strong individuals are of little use to a group trying to stay away, unless you get a couple of them horsing it at the front for the whole race.

Also, I think everyone called Patrick should be put in a separate race to reduce the confusion.

Nietzschean

Lumen wrote: »

Freakishly strong individuals are of little use to a group trying to stay away, unless you get a couple of them horsing it at the front for the whole race.

Freakishly strong arn't much use, but stronger riders willing to take extra turns can help the whole thing ticking over much better ? (only real experience i have of that was the pre-season league race, extra turns you took before turning off the main road ment the pace stayed high while still keeping the group together)

DirkVoodoo

dave.obrien wrote: »

Thank you very much, on both counts! Very happy with the bike alright, gears still need a touch of tweaking but compared to my old trek 1200... well there's no comparison really. Was very tempted by your one, having never used campy, but stuck to what I knew in the end, plus the new Ultegra's quite nice!!!

There did seem to be three of us who were consistently coming through alright (no idea who the other guy was though) plus another three or four who were maybe every second turn. Couldn't help but laugh at my uncle, Paul, when he went up the road himself on the climb on the first lap, he's been racing for 25+ years, and it seemed like an oddly timed attempt at a break!

But holy hell, is it just me, or does everyone get massively hungry the day after a race?!

Was he on a Cervelo? Probably Montac, he does an awful lot of work in that group. There was another Orwell ride, older chap, with some world champion sunglasses who was also doing good stints.

I got kind of boxed in at the end, I went up to the front too early and found I didn't have the legs to try and push away in the headwind. I should have positioned myself to move up to the front on the drag. Raam's mantra about "racing being the best training for racing" is true, I'm already finding huge differences between yesterday and the first races of the year.

dave.obrien

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Was he on a Cervelo? Probably Montac, he does an awful lot of work in that group. There was another Orwell ride, older chap, with some world champion sunglasses who was also doing good stints.

I got kind of boxed in at the end, I went up to the front too early and found I didn't have the legs to try and push away in the headwind. I should have positioned myself to move up to the front on the drag. Raam's mantra about "racing being the best training for racing" is true, I'm already finding huge differences between yesterday and the first races of the year.

Yeah, must be Montac so. Can't say I noticed the world champ sunglasses, but there were a few pulling through every so often alright. The limit group is VERY orwell biased though, other than the vet from St.Tiernans, it was really all Orwell!

blorg

Nietzschean wrote: »

stronger riders willing to take extra turns can help the whole thing ticking over much better ? (only real experience i have of that was the pre-season league race, extra turns you took before turning off the main road ment the pace stayed high while still keeping the group together)

I honestly think if there is a sub-group of stronger riders they are better off riding hard together from the start and dropping the weaker ones. You don't ride off solo on your own, but if you are holding a strong pace and dropping weaker riders that is fine. You don't have to keep the group together in a handicap, what you do need to do is keep a group together.

As long as you keep at least six to eight in your group and work hard you should be fine. I'd note that is effectively what the limit group did in the first race (that Patrick Conlon won) - there was a hard working break from limit of large enough bunch of riders (four of whom were immediately upgraded.)

The problem with a mixed group as Tonto alluded to is that the pace varies too much as weaker riders come to the front and can't keep up the pace. You need consistency, as well as a willingness to take the pain for your stint on the front (it should hurt.)

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

I honestly think if there is a sub-group of stronger riders they are better off riding hard together from the start and dropping the weaker ones. You don't ride off solo on your own, but if you are holding a strong pace and dropping weaker riders that is fine. You don't have to keep the group together in a handicap, what you do need to do is keep a group together.

I think it is perhaps a good idea to break the group if there are too many passengers or weaker riders. But you have to be a bit organised and hope that others who can go with you realise what's happening.

Having said that though, what was happening last night was that a few people were suddenly accelerating very hard and putting others into difficulty. If you come through smoothly you have a much better chance of people staying on your wheel. I've made this mistake myself in the past and I think it's counter-productive.

blorg

el tonto wrote: »

I think it is perhaps a good idea to break the group if there are too many passengers or weaker riders. But you have to be a bit organised and hope that others who can go with you realise what's happening.

Having said that though, what was happening last night was that a few people were suddenly accelerating very hard and putting others into difficulty. If you come through smoothly you have a much better chance of people staying on your wheel. I've made this mistake myself in the past and I think it's counter-productive.

Completely agree. You have to be smooth with no sudden accelerations when it is your turn but at the same time set a steady hard pace. Ease in, make sure the guy behind has your wheel and the guy beside is coming up and then up it gradually if the pace is too slow. Breaking up the group through sudden acceleration is very bad but dropping people due to a steady hard pace is very good. If weaker riders come to the front and slow ask (yell at) them to speed up or move over.

If passengers are just about hanging off the back of a fast moving group while 8-10 people up the front are doing all the work, let them. They are not a problem hanging off the back. They are only a problem if they come up and slow everything down.

niceonetom

If I remember things correctly the race that Pat C won when the limit stayed away, the SL group was being a bit too civilised and was actually obeying the calls from the back for it to go easy. If those calls had been ignored and those who couldn't hang on had been dropped then we could well have made the catch, so there is a lot to be said for allowing the strong to dictate the pace and sod the rest.

Chips Lovell

blorg wrote: »

If passengers are just about hanging off the back of a fast moving group while 8-10 people up the front are doing all the work, let them. They are not a problem hanging off the back. They are only a problem if they come up and slow everything down.

The problem with passengers though is that some of them can sprint.

niceonetom wrote: »

If I remember things correctly the race that Pat C won when the limit stayed away, the SL group was being a bit too civilised and was actually obeying the calls from the back for it to go easy. If those calls had been ignored and those who couldn't hang on had been dropped then we could well have made the catch, so there is a lot to be said for allowing the strong to dictate the pace and sod the rest.

You're probably right there. While the group worked like clockwork I felt we could have gone faster. It was the first proper race of the league though, so I guess nobody really wanted to make that call. You noticed it particularly at the top of the drags when everyone slowed right down to let the group get back together.

Caroline_ie

where are the vids Lumen?

DirkVoodoo

I was trying to shout commands at the group yesterday. I don't think anyone listened.

We had a passenger in our group, he either wouldn't or couldn't ride through but it destroyed the rhythm of the paceline and at least twice I was forced to go around him, try and take people with me and resume the rotation. Whenever this happened it killed our speed as the guy on the front would tire out and there was no one to come through, meanwhile the people behind were slowing down and unable to move through (without doing the aforementioned overtaking).

El Tonto's advice made sense and we probably should have tried to shed the weaker elements of the group and have a smaller, more disciplined and stronger unit. Next time!

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

If I remember things correctly the race that Pat C won when the limit stayed away, the SL group was being a bit too civilised and was actually obeying the calls from the back for it to go easy. If those calls had been ignored and those who couldn't hang on had been dropped then we could well have made the catch, so there is a lot to be said for allowing the strong to dictate the pace and sod the rest.

Completely agree. You need to consider in a handicap what the purpose of keeping the group together is: to have that group moving as fast as possible, irrespective of who is in it. You can't do this on your own, or generally even with one or two others. The point is not to slow down to keep everybody on, but to work smoothly at the maximum pace possible that will keep enough people there to keep the highest pace.

el tonto wrote: »

The problem with passengers though is that some of them can sprint.

So can the scratch guys if they catch you! I'd worry about staying away first and who can sprint second. At least in that situation you are only sprinting against your own group. If you have been working solid but hard and it looks like you are not being caught in the last few km that is the time to start looking at long distance attacks, if you are not a sprinter. Also if you have been working hard to successfully stay away there is no shame in resting a bit and avoiding the front towards the end to recover. Just be mindful of course of your position and know when you have to start moving up if you want to be in contention (generally the larger the bunch the sooner you need to start on this.)

Chips Lovell

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

We had a passenger in our group, he either wouldn't or couldn't ride through but it destroyed the rhythm of the paceline and at least twice I was forced to go around him, try and take people with me and resume the rotation. Whenever this happened it killed our speed as the guy on the front would tire out and there was no one to come through, meanwhile the people behind were slowing down and unable to move through (without doing the aforementioned overtaking).

As blorg said earlier, tell him to stay at the back and not get in the way if he can't come through. If he doesn't listen, lead him out the back.

blorg wrote: »

So can the scratch guys if they catch you! I'd worry about staying away first and who can sprint second.

I agree, staying away is the priority. But if you can shed those sprinting passengers in the meantime, all the better. I guess my point was they are not completely harmless hanging around the back.

velo.2010

Could you folks tell me what lap is it exactly you do near Brittas?

Nietzschean

velo.2010 wrote: »

Could you folks tell me what lap is it exactly you do near Brittas?

http://url.ie/636u i believe is what we did the other night

dave.obrien

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

El Tonto's advice made sense and we probably should have tried to shed the weaker elements of the group and have a smaller, more disciplined and stronger unit. Next time!

You can count me in for this anyway!

Diarmuid

Enjoyed that.Felt a lot more comfortable in the pack but didn't improve the outcome.

Was near the front when SS caught us and got a bit boxed in. However an oncoming car just at the 3km mark gave me the opportunity. I was glued to the young Orwell rider's wheel (don't know his name) and he found a gap onto the front However I managed to end up leading it out, I knew I wasn't going to have to legs to get a place at that stage but I gave it a dig anyways. Once I got out of the seat to sprint though it all kicked off and the guys behind me all passed me. 420Ws for the last minute.

I'm getting used to seeing Patrick's wheel disappear into the distance on that climb