rounds/bullets

landkeeper

heres one for you lads , i was brought up to use the terms bullets for rifle ammunition and cartridges for a shotgun , i see most lads here refering to 'rounds' for a rifle it was allways my understanding that a round was that a round ie a musket ball or similar
discuss:D

riflehunter77

I use the term rounds, goes back to my FCA days.

Five Rounds in your own time Fire

bazza888

rounds is military type way of saying it,catridge is what holds the bullet until its fired

deerhunter1

landkeeper wrote: »

heres one for you lads , i was brought up to use the terms bullets for rifle ammunition and cartridges for a shotgun , i see most lads here refering to 'rounds' for a rifle it was allways my understanding that a round was that a round ie a musket ball or similar
discuss:D

Bullet==Head (Projectile)

Cartridge==Case which holds the bullet Head (projectile)

Round==Completely assembled-- Cartridge & Bullet with Primer Powder==Live Round

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

heres one for you lads , i was brought up to use the terms bullets for rifle ammunition and cartridges for a shotgun , i see most lads here refering to 'rounds' for a rifle it was allways my understanding that a round was that a round ie a musket ball or similar
discuss:D

Round consists of bullet (head) propellant (powder or granules)
Primer(the piece the firing pin hits)

Previously to this ammo was muzzle loaded hence was not full or a round of ammunition.
Millitary in Ireland still refer to FMJ's as ball type ammo. Long time ago since we fired ball type ammo!

Cartridge normally 12 gauge was 1/12 of a lb of lead shot ~34g. Hence 12G 16g was 1/16lb hence lighter load.

A lot of terms in firearms are from where they were invented a Picatanny rail etc. Picatanny was a US military armourment where things were invented.

No 1 detail, Range 300, 10 rounds, Rapid fire, in your own time, FIRE!:D

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Round consists of bullet (head) propellant (powder or granules)
Primer(the piece the firing pin hits)

Previously to this ammo was muzzle loaded hence was not full or a round of ammunition.
Millitary in Ireland still refer to FMJ's as ball type ammo. Long time ago since we fired ball type ammo!

Cartridge normally 12 gauge was 1/12 of a lb of lead shot ~34g. Hence 12G 16g was 1/16lb hence lighter load.

A lot of terms in firearms are from where they were invented a Picatanny rail etc. Picatanny was a US military armourment where things were invented.

No 1 detail, Range 300, 10 rounds, Rapid fire, in your own time, FIRE!:D

so whats a dumb - dumb

deerhunter1

jwshooter wrote: »

so whats a dumb - dumb

There are loads of Dumb - Dumbs

The one your referring to I believe is when the head of the bullet is quarterd (X) (Sliced in 4) so when fired, that on impact to a body it splits into 4 and causes maximum damage

pedroeibar1

deerhunter1 wrote: »

There are loads of Dumb - Dumbs

The one your referring to I believe is when the head of the bullet is quarterd (X) (Sliced in 4) so when fired, that on impact to a body it splits into 4 and causes maximum damage

Dumbass, :D:D
it's a Dumdum, named after a place in India.
Believe it or no!
P

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Cartridge normally 12 gauge was 1/12 of a lb of lead shot ~34g. Hence 12G 16g was 1/16lb hence lighter load.

Tack,
Not at 100% with you there. The gauge is determined by the number of equal sized balls that can be made frm a pound of lead. So, 12 balls give you a barrel that gauges 12, 16 balls 16, etc. Bore is different, as it refers to the size in inches e.g. a 410 is a bore.

Did you ever come across an FCA officer nicknamed Lucy ? Once forgot his coat on the ground at the range, walked back, gave the order to fire and couldn't understand why no targets were hit!
Shoulda seen his coat!:D:D:D
Rs
P.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Tack,
Not at 100% with you there. The gauge is determined by the number of equal sized balls that can be made frm a pound of lead. So, 12 balls give you a barrel that gauges 12, 16 balls 16, etc. Bore is different, as it refers to the size in inches e.g. a 410 is a bore.

Did you ever come across an FCA officer nicknamed Lucy ? Once forgot his coat on the ground at the range, walked back, gave the order to fire and couldn't understand why no targets were hit!
Shoulda seen his coat!:D:D:D
Rs
P.

I think we are both a little off, I just read the world book again!(we have encylopedias inside the house since god was a boy, I miss quoted)
12G is 38G~ not 34 as previously stated. the weight of a lead ball required to fill the chamber. but 12g is 1/12lb
.410 is the bore of a small shotgun. My grand dad had one my uncle now owns.Harington Richardson single barrel.

10G is 1/10lb 12g is 1/12 16g is 1/16 20g is 1/20 28G is 1/28 of a lb.

10G is almost extinct except in the states as it kicks like a mule. I fired one, ouch
My Neighbour has a 16g and if you had the cartridges in your hand or looked at the barrels you'd understand the size difference.

.410 were a great gardeners gun, shoot birds at veg without digging up the place.
My neighbour is 76 and he has his 16g years. It's old and rough and only ejects on one barrel, but he uses it to shoot crows eating grain out of his shed.

In regards to lucy, the name rings a bell lol

Mr.Flibble

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Bullet==Head (Projectile)

So why's the headstamp at the other end?

Tackleberrywho

Mr.Flibble wrote: »

So why's the headstamp at the other end?

You are right, but the bullets are referred to as heads as when we look at them we actually look at them upside down.

I see/hear people in the DF writing/saying ammonition instead of ammunition as they are so used to calling it ammo!

jwshooter

dumb - dumbs

Tackleberrywho

jwshooter wrote: »

dumb - dumbs

Lots of things have been coined into everyday speech.

Freeze the balls off a brass monkey!

Ball ammo as previously stated.

I remember asking the question why is it called ball Ammo and not FMJ, I was told to shut up pte!

landkeeper

pedroeibar1 is right with his description of bore measurement for a smooth bore/shotgun it is the number of equal size balls of lead made from lb of said stuff
if you think a 10 bore kicks try a 8 bore double hammer gun at geese
the 'brass monkey' was a rack of some description used to hold cannon balls on ships afaik

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

pedroeibar1 is right with his description of bore measurement for a smooth bore/shotgun it is the number of equal size balls of lead made from lb of said stuff
if you think a 10 bore kicks try a 8 bore double hammer gun at geese
the 'brass monkey' was a rack of some description used to hold cannon balls on ships afaik

I copied direct from an encyclopedia, If it's lies i'm tellin it's lies I'm told!
All I can confirm i have fired my dads 12g single barrel 12gauge, my grandads .410.
A lad I know has a lee enfield converted to fire .410 slugs NI Man, fired that too 4 inch group @ 100m

I never fired a punt gun but I never shot a goose either.....yet.
I killed them on the farm by hand but thats another story.

yes a brass monkey was used to hold cannon balls in cold weather would break apart due to poor quality welding/riveting at the time and metal impurities.

my question is, If you knew the answer then why ask the question??

First time i read up on shotguns was about 25 years ago as a young boy.
My fathers uncle had a 20gauge that he let me fire when i was 10.

My great grand uncle had guns too, but thats another story lol.

most of these folks are dead so the story can die with them.
I'm more into rifles these days I found them more interesting.

Where I live a game gun shot/rifle would be great as half the time I go for pheasants I see deer and vise versa. TYPICAL

I collected shells as a kid of all firearms. So I used to measure and compare from then on I was hooked.:D

landkeeper

the question i asked was about rounds/cartridges not about gauge of bore i just commented about the information given about other things brought up in the course of the thread that was all ,that one i know the answer to since i was a nipper cos my grandfather had a 13bore hammer gun that was made to fire black powder long long before the 12/16/20/28 thing was standardised .
the double 8 bore is a shoulder gun not a punt gun it belonged to a friend of mine who used to use it on the estury near home and was a serious monster of a yoke , he used to joke that he made very sure he was on firm ground firing it when he was out on the marsh lol
the thing that intrigues me is all the lads i know who are 'into' rifles and hand guns now happily send rounds down range and shoot off a few rounds at clays i was just interested to see what other peoples perspective was on terminology , which is why i used the expression 'discuss'

Tackleberrywho

landkeeper wrote: »

the question i asked was about rounds/cartridges not about gauge of bore i just commented about the information given about other things brought up in the course of the thread that was all ,that one i know the answer to since i was a nipper cos my grandfather had a 13bore hammer gun that was made to fire black powder long long before the 12/16/20/28 thing was standardised .
the double 8 bore is a shoulder gun not a punt gun it belonged to a friend of mine who used to use it on the estury near home and was a serious monster of a yoke , he used to joke that he made very sure he was on firm ground firing it when he was out on the marsh lol
the thing that intrigues me is all the lads i know who are 'into' rifles and hand guns now happily send rounds down range and shoot off a few rounds at clays i was just interested to see what other peoples perspective was on terminology , which is why i used the expression 'discuss'

There is English, European and american terminology basterdized together

I'm not near any slobs so Geese are few and far between, except in protected areas.

My grandad was great on old firearms as he was an engineer so it intrigued him, and me!

I love all firearms, not overly fond of .44mag pistol as it hut shooting a short barrelled version.
I hear mad terminology every day, I try my best to understand it.
The oldest part of a firearm I own is a bayonet off a musket found in a false ceiling in my fathers old thatched house.

Yes my da was born in a thatched house with an outside toilet!!(outhouse)
When they knocked it, they found the bayonet which experts say was from 1798 era.

I held a snider rifle once in perfect knick, Never fired it.
I'm an engineer by profession so I find firearms fascinating.

The terminology gets though to trawl through.
There is so much of it.
I have a WW1 Era bayonet that nobody can tell me from what country it's from!

And I asked all the classic rifle shooters I know!

I understand the round thing as it is interrelated to prohibition of reloading
Another thread...
Is it time for bed now??

Mellor

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Bullet==Head (Projectile)

Cartridge==Case which holds the bullet Head (projectile)

Round==Completely assembled-- Cartridge & Bullet with Primer Powder==Live Round

This wasn't picked up on, but its off imo.

The cartridge is the same as the round, they are synonyms.
The part that holds the bullet is the case or casing, not the cartridge.
Assembled it is the round or cartridge.

Traditionally, round tends towards rifles, cartridge towards shotguns. But both are inter-changeable.

The first "cartridges" were in the 13th century (or so), the wads of paper that held gunpowder for muzzle loaders or cannons.
By the 16th cent. the wads contained a bullet too which was rammed home after the powder poured in.
This is where we get the name cartridge paper (what goes in a printer today).
It was the early 19th cent. that seen the primer introduced to the still paper cartridge, breach loaded fired with a pin. Shortly after brass took over.

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I copied direct from an encyclopedia, If it's lies i'm tellin it's lies I'm told!


I never fired a punt gun but ....

yes a brass monkey was used to hold cannon balls in cold weather would break apart due to poor quality welding/riveting at the time and metal impurities.

snip

Where I live a game gun shot/rifle would be great as half the time I go for pheasants I see deer and vise versa. TYPICAL

Punt guns have bores as they are measured in inches:eek:

I stand over my bore/gauge definition, that auld book of yours must have been a cheap one bought off an itinerant hawker in the year dot

A brass monkey was used on old sailing ships. It is a simple brass tray with round indents on which a pyramid of cannon balls was stacked. Because they contracted at different rates when very cold, (coefficient of linnear expansion and all that;)) the balls sometimes rolled off. There was a linnear version, made from wood, called a shot garland. Readers of Patrick O'Brian would know this.:cool:

I shoot a 20g and 12Gs. Biggest gauge I've fired is a 4 , a Laing, which was an elephant gun. I've also fired a howdah pistol, which was considerably worse
You need a nice Cape Gun for your shooting - say 16g and 9mm - wonder how that would work on an FCA1
Rs
P.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Punt guns have bores as they are measured in inches:eek:

I stand over my bore/gauge definition, that auld book of yours must have been a cheap one bought off an itinerant hawker in the year dot

A brass monkey was used on old sailing ships. It is a simple brass tray with round indents on which a pyramid of cannon balls was stacked. Because they contracted at different rates when very cold, (coefficient of linnear expansion and all that;)) the balls sometimes rolled off. There was a linnear version, made from wood, called a shot garland. Readers of Patrick O'Brian would know this.:cool:

I shoot a 20g and 12Gs. Biggest gauge I've fired is a 4 , a Laing, which was an elephant gun. I've also fired a howdah pistol, which was considerably worse
You need a nice Cape Gun for your shooting - say 16g and 9mm - wonder how that would work on an FCA1
Rs
P.

The book was wrote my Americans http://www.worldbookonline.com/sales/products?id=10034
We had A-Z bought them in 1981, got a year book update after that until around 1990 when countries started changing so fast we gave up buying them. Russia Czechoslovakia Zaire Yugoslavia.
Was a door to door sales man alright, they wore a suit but that did not mean they could read!

Never fired an Elephant gun or even seen a howdah pistol in the flesh.
Punt Guns were before my time too, we grew up with stevens 12 gaugle single barrel being poor peasants:D

Only stories we heard about Africa were from the Religious but thats also another thread...........

This would be more suited to me, maybe .30/06 is a bit heavy but I'd prefer to have a 12g shotty

pedroeibar1

Interesting looking gun. Greener side safety, but the engraving gives it a Germanic look. If you want to stay with a plain 12 bore shotty, then get a Paradox gun, need a restricted licence though, as sabot rounds are on the list.

Looked up some definitions:

Definition for "ball" : 1. Another name for bullet, generally military jargon; 'ball ammunition' as opposed to shot. Usually describes a full metal jacket bullet; 2. Used by Olin industries to describe their spherical powder; 3. The original ammunition used in muzzleloaders; round lead spheres.

Definition for "bore" : The interior of the barrel of a firearm, excluding the chamber and throat. It may be smooth as in a traditional shotgun or musket, or rifled as in the case of a rifle or pistol.

Definition for "bullet" : The cartridge component which, when in flight, becomes the projectile, usually made of lead and sometimes covered with a jacket of copper alloy or other metal. Sometimes mistakenly used to describe ammunition.

Definition for "cartridge" : A complete round of ammunition with all components intact. Normally rifle or pistol ammunition. A cartridge consists of all four components which include the bullet, powder, primer, and case.

Definition for "gauge" : The diameter of a shotgun bore as measured by the weight of the largest lead ball that can be fired from it. For example, a 20-gauge barrel fires a ball of lead that can weigh up to 1/20th of a pound due to the diameter restriction.

All of these from
http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/catbrowse?CodeID=141044&Path=1.139359

I prefer the Hallowells definition which says

Gauge - System of measurement for the internal bore diameter of a smooth-bore firearm based on the diameter of each of that number of spherical lead balls whose total weight is one pound. The internal diameter of a 12 gauge shotgun barrel is therefore equal to the diameter of a lead ball weighing 1/12 pound, which happens to be .729" (Or in British: Bore.) The Gauge/Bore system is also used, by convention, to describe the internal barrel diameter of large-bore, 19th century, English, single-shot and double-barrel rifles.
at http://www.hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm
Rs
P.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Interesting looking gun. Greener side safety, but the engraving gives it a Germanic look. If you want to stay with a plain 12 bore shotty, then get a Paradox gun, need a restricted licence though, as sabot rounds are on the list.

Looked up some definitions:

Definition for "ball" : 1. Another name for bullet, generally military jargon; 'ball ammunition' as opposed to shot. Usually describes a full metal jacket bullet; 2. Used by Olin industries to describe their spherical powder; 3. The original ammunition used in muzzleloaders; round lead spheres.

Definition for "bore" : The interior of the barrel of a firearm, excluding the chamber and throat. It may be smooth as in a traditional shotgun or musket, or rifled as in the case of a rifle or pistol.

Definition for "cartridge" : A complete round of ammunition with all components intact. Normally rifle or pistol ammunition. A cartridge consists of all four components which include the bullet, powder, primer, and case.

Definition for "gauge" : The diameter of a shotgun bore as measured by the weight of the largest lead ball that can be fired from it. For example, a 20-gauge barrel fires a ball of lead that can weigh up to 1/20th of a pound due to the diameter restriction.

All of these from
http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/catbrowse?CodeID=141044&Path=1.139359

I prefer the Hallowells definition which says

Gauge - System of measurement for the internal bore diameter of a smooth-bore firearm based on the diameter of each of that number of spherical lead balls whose total weight is one pound. The internal diameter of a 12 gauge shotgun barrel is therefore equal to the diameter of a lead ball weighing 1/12 pound, which happens to be .729" (Or in British: Bore.) The Gauge/Bore system is also used, by convention, to describe the internal barrel diameter of large-bore, 19th century, English, single-shot and double-barrel rifles.
at http://www.hallowellco.com/bore_size_chart.htm
Rs
P.

Well now you see my point, subtle differences even in books
Gun pictured is a Merkel combination .30/06 12g

My younger brother used to go into a shop and look for bullets for the shotgun to shoot pidgieducks, this was just for the laugh atv first but force of habbit he still calls them bullets.

I here the word Tri-pod used so often for Bi-pod, even by very intelligent people:mad: Gets on my nerves

So I was right in my explaination of ball type ammo, the auld world books were not too far off the mark
I read every article about guns as a child.
Santy even bought me books on gun's and motorbikes as a child!
My fist gun fired ping pong balls, until my o, older brother took it apart mar ya to fix it!

Maybe next year Santy will bring me a nice Blaser or unique alpine!

I always wanted a lever action too as I thought they were cool, Don't know anybody that has one over .22mag though.
More dreams!
And another spanner for the works!
cartridge - ammunition consisting of a cylindrical casing containing an explosive charge and a bullet; fired from a rifle or handgun

PS why is a machine gun not called a machine rifle, and What do Artillery call it a gun crew when it also has a rifled barrel

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ammunition

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Gun pictured is a Merkel combination .30/06 12g

Maybe next year Santy will bring me a nice Blaser or unique alpine!

PS why is a machine gun not called a machine rifle, and What do Artillery call it a gun crew when it also has a rifled barrel

Well at least I got the German bit right.:)

As for a Blaser, well, if I can get my head around the R economy and can make a bit more than I am at present, I've my eye on a Sako 85, nice timber stock ( I hate laminate and don't like plastic.) I'm fed up with watching every d@mn penny!

They are not guns, they are "artillery pieces" but the crew is called a gun crew because a "piece crew" sounds ridiculously incongruous

Gun, after Gunhilda, the pet name of the first big cannon. Big Bertha, after Bertha, wife of Her Krupps. Don't know if she was a large lady or if it had a rifled barrel, (the piece, not Frau K:D)
P.

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ammunition

Don't agree with that either. Their use of Old French from the Latin Munitio is wrong. The root is Latin, Munire, to supply; a word used when giving all products to the soldiers ; then became over time limited to use for war supplies.
Rs
P.
Whose Latin is thanks to Introibo and Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres from De Bello Gallico beaten into me by fellas with sticks.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Well at least I got the German bit right.:)

As for a Blaser, well, if I can get my head around the R economy and can make a bit more than I am at present, I've my eye on a Sako 85, nice timber stock ( I hate laminate and don't like plastic.) I'm fed up with watching every d@mn penny!

They are not guns, they are "artillery pieces" but the crew is called a gun crew because a "piece crew" sounds ridiculously incongruous

Gun, after Gunhilda, the pet name of the first big cannon. Big Bertha, after Bertha, wife of Her Krupps. Don't know if she was a large lady or if it had a rifled barrel, (the piece, not Frau K:D)
P.

I'm just looking at the stats on a winchester .30/30 Legal on deer in this country by energy and grain weight. Interesting to see if ANYONE would use one over a bolt action Sako 85:D

I had a sako 75 6.5x55 synthetic stainless, although it did stain, small little rust spots on safety catch and on barrel. small but visible.
I was not fond of it's grey colour, I bought a green stocked rifle, I like green:D:D

The shotgun rifle machine gun, artillery piece always causes debate at home!
I'm due to get a bonus in July. Depending on how much the jeep insurance is this time round will determine if I can get a new toy!

But I'll have to wait and see

dCorbus

hey pedro, don't forget that troia erat oppidum magnum in asia, too!:D;)

pedroeibar1

dCorbus wrote: »

hey pedro, don't forget that troia erat oppidum magnum in asia, too!:D;)

Stop, it'll bring on bad memories like Muri errant alti et validi et seq.......


I had a crap Mocks result, except for Latin and a school exam in Religion,prompting the Da to say "Well, if all else fails, we can make a priest out of you!" :eek:

P

Tackleberrywho

dCorbus wrote: »

hey pedro, don't forget that troia erat oppidum magnum in asia, too!:D;)

Well CBS Franciscians Jesuits who ever.
Did you ever read about ireland in a publication written outside Ireland by people who were not Irish?

Freud even thought the Irish were a league of their own.
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori was a phrase that resonated in the walls of my mind as a young kid, wondering if the person who wrote it would still say the same?

Yet could we turn the years again,
And call those exiles as they were
In all their loneliness and pain,
You'd cry, 'Some woman's yellow hair
Has maddened every mother's son':
They weighed so lightly what they gave.
But let them be, they're dead and gone,
They're with O'Leary in the grave.

kowloon

landkeeper wrote: »

the 'brass monkey' was a rack of some description used to hold cannon balls on ships afaik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_monkey_%28colloquial_expression%29

It wasn't me!

And there was me learning Latin for fun...