Looking for some input on a charter update - Provisions for competitions

Calina

Folks,

we are looking to update the charter with some provisions relating to third party competitions.

The reason for this is that they can be and have been somewhat contentious, particularly with respect to terms and conditions.

I don't especially want to ban competitions being posted but think - for the sake of clarity - that the charter should provide some basic rules regarding clarity of the t&cs such as

"If you are posting a competition that you are running for photographers, please make the terms and conditions regarding ownership and further use of any photographs submitted clear in the post about the competition".

We are also thinking about putting a sticky in Events for competitions and possibly moving all competition related OPs to that sticky.

I'd be grateful for some constructive feedback from the community on this subject so as to minimise hassle in the future.

AnCatDubh

to kick off - a quick thought;

through the charter you could gazump the whole rights thing along the lines of "anyone posting a competition to the photography forum expressly understands that in no way are any rights relating to any image which might be submitted transferred, licences, or assumed by the organising entity - (or a whole load of legalistic speak like that).

This would cover organisations which would like to promote their competitions here on boards (subject to them being allowed to do so)

If something like that was included in the recommended way we may need to co-ordinate with Darragh/Dav, in terms of understanding and perhaps amendment of the boards T&C if appropriate/required.

Legally it mightn't be the full shilling but it might be enough to politely point rights grabbers towards.

That however wouldn't cover a competition that you stumble across and post for people information - need to have a think about how those would then be handled.

ihastakephoto

newbie that I am, I would prefer to see all competitions in a separate channel, similar to the Challenge/Expedition ones.
It would be good at the very start of any competition announcement if the rights were stated in plain english.
eg:
A: by submitting your images you license reproduction by the competition organisers.
B: the winning image only will be licensed by the competition owners

or how ever many other possibilities there may be.

just my two cents worth

Covey

AnCatDubh wrote: »

That however wouldn't cover a competition that you stumble across and post for people information - need to have a think about how those would then be handled.

A bit of Overkill in my opinion, especially where someone wants to refer to a competition as above.

Why not make it simple and have a dedicated place to post them, a clear warning that one should read and agree the T&C's before entering. If it's really necessary ask people to post the warning with each post.

mrboswell

Covey wrote: »

A bit of Overkill in my opinion, especially where someone wants to refer to a competition as above.

Why not make it simple and have a dedicated place to post them, a clear warning that one should read and agree the T&C's before entering. If it's really necessary ask people to post the warning with each post.

I agree.

Not that I would be interested, but some boards members might be fine with a company using a competition entry as advertising etc and claiming rights on any entry they submit. I don't think it is fair to rule some boards members out and to have all competitions run in that way.

However aren't all post covered by the charter any way??
Seems like a contradiction to be making new rules for posting competitions if they are already covered.

If it was easy to organise I would try to have 2 routes for hosting a competition - 1st for not allowing rights to any competition poster and 2nd for giving full release of rights to competition holders.
That way the competition poster can decide and the onus falls on them knowing that if any regulations are broken then they are open to legal proceedings.

Just my 2 cents...

101001

so would a competition be banned from boards if the organizers wanted the image as part of an advertising campaign etc. As an amateur i would consider this a shame.

A competition section might be a nice touch as well

AnCatDubh

101001 wrote: »

so would a competition be banned from boards if the organizers wanted the image as part of an advertising campaign etc. As an amateur i would consider this a shame.

A competition section might be a nice touch as well

nope - no one's trying to ban them.

in fact my post is probably irrelevant given the opinion that's there.

Calina's opening post is the important one.

artyeva

will it get rid of the slew of posts that follow whenever anyone posts a link to a competition they found?? if so do whatever is necessary... one of the most annoying things on here is everyone jumping on the bandwagon and flaming the OP if the terms and conditions aren't to their liking... or even worse... a spanish inquisition on the OP as to what the T+Cs actually are... if you care so much why not just go off and read them yourself????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

if you don't like them, don't enter. but don't whack up your postcount witchhunting whoever linked to it.... this annoys my inner sense of....of... of...well... something. will this make it stop?:p

mrboswell

Calina's post is important but it shouldn't be the rule for all competitions.

artyeva wrote: »

if you don't like them, don't enter. but don't whack up your postcount witchhunting whoever linked to it.... this annoys my inner sense of....of... of...well... something. will this make it stop?:p

Exactly...make people responsible for their own decisions and then there is no need for this big debate.

AnCatDubh

mrboswell wrote: »

Calina's post is important but it shouldn't be the rule for all competitions.

Sorry - didn't mean to imply it was going to be the rule. the purpose of the thread is to get the opinion. Apologies.

/ i'll shut up now

mrboswell

AnCatDubh wrote: »

Sorry - didn't mean to imply it was going to be the rule. the purpose of the thread is to get the opinion. Apologies.

/ i'll shut up now

No need for an apology - I just wanted to keep it simple as these subjects tend to go around in circles!

kjt

I think a separate sub-forum or a sticky thread. What could be an idea is to go ahead the way they have been done in the past (their own thread) but have the OP pm a mod with details before getting the go ahead...?

sNarah

On the same page as KJT here, a sub-forum with a seperate thread per comp with room for questions and further details. Will also allow for people to make a note of comps they've come accross + organisers of comps to "advertise" their requests.

I'm not a fan of a sticky - the photographic requests one sort of turns me off because i.e. page 3 has no relevance to page 7. Also, when using the PM system, the OP will be sending out [enter amount] replies with the exact same answer.

In regards to the T+C, I don't know enough about them to formulate a decent answer so I'm not gonna try

sunny2004

can you just not moderate the comps ?

Darragh

AnCatDubh wrote: »

to kick off - a quick thought;

through the charter you could gazump the whole rights thing along the lines of "anyone posting a competition to the photography forum expressly understands that in no way are any rights relating to any image which might be submitted transferred, licences, or assumed by the organising entity - (or a whole load of legalistic speak like that).

This would cover organisations which would like to promote their competitions here on boards (subject to them being allowed to do so)

If something like that was included in the recommended way we may need to co-ordinate with Darragh/Dav, in terms of understanding and perhaps amendment of the boards T&C if appropriate/required.

Legally it mightn't be the full shilling but it might be enough to politely point rights grabbers towards.

That however wouldn't cover a competition that you stumble across and post for people information - need to have a think about how those would then be handled.

Just on this -


I'm happy enough for there to be a thread with any competitions found by members and recommended by members listed in it.

However, I don't want to see companies and organisations trying to use Boards.ie for free marketing, because it's not - we have to be paid too.

Any "Official" competition will be run in conjunction with the office.

Any other competitions should at least be cleared with the moderators beforehand (unless you think that's overkill?)

Maybe have a thread/forum that's all premoderated and only a moderator can say yes to it?

mrboswell

Darragh wrote: »

Just on this -


I'm happy enough for there to be a thread with any competitions found by members and recommended by members listed in it.

However, I don't want to see companies and organisations trying to use Boards.ie for free marketing, because it's not - we have to be paid too.

Any "Official" competition will be run in conjunction with the office.

Any other competitions should at least be cleared with the moderators beforehand (unless you think that's overkill?)

Maybe have a thread/forum that's all premoderated and only a moderator can say yes to it?

I hear you on the companies and organisations thing but what if a charity or school are looking to design a poster or need an image to represent something particular - as non-profit I think such things need to be looked at more closely and on a different basis to a company looking for free marketing..... but I don't necessarily think its over kill to moderate it if it is done efficiently.

democrates

Interesting one. Maybe whitelist certain not-for-profits by default eg schools etc. but perhaps not political parties and the like who could abuse it to advertise candidates or views. But where to draw the line, even schools have an 'ethos'...

IPWS

I think clearly setting out terms and conditions for photo competitions/photowalks etc is a useful thing. While I appreciate people like to enter competitions - photographers shouldn't be forced to allow companies usage rights on photographs in return for the simple "chance to win"/"photo pass"/etc. Images are a valuable resource and competitions which require a rights grab/free usage etc are bad business practice.

mrboswell

IPWS wrote: »

I think clearly setting out terms and conditions for photo competitions/photowalks etc is a useful thing. While I appreciate people like to enter competitions - photographers shouldn't be forced to allow companies usage rights on photographs in return for the simple "chance to win"/"photo pass"/etc. Images are a valuable resource and competitions which require a rights grab/free usage etc are bad business practice.

Images can be a valuable resource, for some people.
How I wish to control my images can be worlds away to how my friends might want to. You can't run all competitions on the basis that entrants are forced to allow companies usage rights on photographs in return for the simple "chance to win"/"photo pass"/etc. which is why we need to specify the type of competition it is. If you don't like the terms and conditions then you shouldn't enter.

It works both ways - if you don't want to give up rights to your photos should all competitions be run so that the organiser will get nothing out of it?
What if my friend took a good shot, entered a comp because they liked the prize but didn't give hoot about the image?

Competitions should cater for everyone...by this I mean competitions need to be run in different ways as opposed to any single way.

IPWS

Thanks Mr Boswell - I would maintain that images are a valuable resource. A person not recognising their value is another thing.

It is not as simple as saying- "if you don't like it, don't enter" - because I do feel companies are taking advantage of skilled amateurs to get really good images for their promotional material. Why does a company need to grab all the images if they only want to run a competition anyway? I love and encourage photo competitions but I do hate rights grabs pretending to be photo competitions.

mrboswell

IPWS wrote: »

Thanks Mr Boswell - I would maintain that images are a valuable resource. A person not recognising their value is another thing.

It is not as simple as saying- "if you don't like it, don't enter" - because I do feel companies are taking advantage of skilled amateurs to get really good images for their promotional material. Why does a company need to grab all the images if they only want to run a competition anyway? I love and encourage photo competitions but I do hate rights grabs pretending to be photo competitions.

I hope you haven't taken me up wrong.
Obviously one mans trash is another man's treasure. I view images as a valuable resource so I take caution when I enter a competition. Is it too much to ask that people read the terms and conditions? Can competitions not cater for everyone?

It is that simple, unless you want to run all competitions on the same standard which, correct me if I picked you up wrong, is what you don't want to happen in terms of rights being given away.
Unless there are specific terms and conditions for various competitions then all competitions will be the same.

Alternatively mods can ban comps who's terms and conditions require full rights. I don't think that is the right way to go about it.

When I started out I didn't really view my images as a valuable resource. I was enjoying learning and entering competitions encouraged me to photograph different things. In some cases it involved giving up rights to my images but I was ok about that.
Although things have changes including my view of images as a valuable resource, I found competitions a great incentive to get out and try different things and it would be a real shame potential competition hosts were scared away.

I'm not promoting big companies getting freebies as I wouldn't be into it myself - but I once would have been and I genuinely believe that there are others out there that would.

sNarah

Und? Any updates?