Limerick DC Appeal - SUCCESS!!!

Bananaman

Lads,

it is important not to gloat on these matters, not to be too quick to publish details if you need some time to verify them and also to not nit pick at each other to a degree that those reading the thread - such as myself - no longer know what it is about

what is important is that individuals, who had availed of the appeals process in order to overturn an unfair refusal of their firearms licenses, were successful in that appeal

there are many more before the courts - who will face the same judges, will be arguing against the same persona designata and may not benefit from people slagging off or misquoting those parties in a public forum

by all means applaud people for having asserted their rights and being successful but try not to have any vitriol creep into it

we may not agree with their decisions we will all be dealing with the same people again in three years or in the interim should we require further licenses

B'Man

rrpc

+1

A little decorum goes a long way

Reading an argument that seems to be more of a vociferous agreement kinda makes the head spin.

Grizzly 45

Personally lads I couldnt be worried....One post wonders who wont come back because they have to hide behind the old "the DOJ and Gardai might be reading this." old chestnut is soooo lame .

Ah well I and others have walked the walk ,and talked the talk.:D
I'm sure "lumphammer" will be back to tell us how he /she gets on,if they actually have a case or a gun that is.Or they have somthing pendantic and personal to add
Regds
<mod snip>
Grizzly

It wasn't me!

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

because they have to hide behind the old "the DOJ and Gardai might be reading this."

There is no might. They are reading this. Ever ask yourself, at four or five in the morning, why there's one registered viewer (if even) and still a good number of guests? That ratio is unique to this forum on Boards. If you don't think everything here is being very carefully observed, you're extremely naive or very stupid.

gunhappy_ie

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There is no might. They are reading this. Ever ask yourself, at four or five in the morning, why there's one registered viewer (if even) and still a good number of guests? That ratio is unique to this forum on Boards. If you don't think everything here is being very carefully observed, you're extremely naive or very stupid.

Its Almost 4am.... ET phone home ... !!!


mammy misses you :P:P:P

Bananaman

Time and Location does not matter - nor does it matter - who may be reading it.
What goes in the ether - stays in the ether - ad infinitum.
There is also no such thing an anonymity - I know who many of the regular posters are on here - as do most people who post here.

In essence what you say will be attributed to you for ever - so it is best to keep that in mind when posting.

Back to the thread though - well done to those that have won their appeals.

I look forward to seeing you on a range somewhere.

B'Man

Grizzly 45

It wasn't me! wrote: »

There is no might. They are reading this. Ever ask yourself, at four or five in the morning, why there's one registered viewer (if even) and still a good number of guests? That ratio is unique to this forum on Boards. If you don't think everything here is being very carefully observed, you're extremely naive or very stupid.

Yeah IWM we know it the DOJ know it,ho hum.:rolleyes:They proably have a file on you as they most certainly do on me,and on anyone who has posted here over a certain post count.....And guess what?? It makes not the blindest bit of difference....
In intelligence circles it is called monitoring "chatter",in the hope that you might pick up somthing useful..If however you know your opposition knows that they are monitoring your conversations,which we are only too well aware of.You can have lots of fun with them then.Like putting stories or posts that could send them off on wild goose chases as well.Or for sending them a message too,on a worldwide stage...
They have done it here to us as well,twice actually in this thread,and it didnt take much to figure out who,what and why.
The shooting community is quite small here,and it doesnt take much to get the story behind most everything.;)

Do you honestly THINK anyone is posting the most intricate and total details of strategy or plans here??You would have to be incredibly naive or very stupid to belive that.Anything on this thread would have been known by the PTB within minutes as well of us posting it too by their own channels.

So if you think that the PTB are solely reliant on boards.ie for ALL the pertinent information of what the shooting community is on about..Well,I guess we should take that as a compliment,and be very worried that our law enforcement and govt agencies have to snoop on a public chat group for their information .Well I suppose Indymedia .ie would come under this category as well.

As for other people looking at this board at 4AM,etc.Maybe they are others in different TIME ZONES who are most intrested in what is going on here????;)

mymp9

Some people on here are definetly unable to take a hint . The cause of all this firearms control is the constant prattle on about what "hardware" they have, it can all be attributed to walter mitty charachters trying to make themselves into some kind of shooting gurus .people trying to build themselves into larger then life "experts". the self promotion by some charachters making themselves out to be commandos.there are a lot of internet self taught ballastic experts talking up a storm here about real life stuff, they have only experienced in action movies. lets face it lads do you honestly believe your loose talk about firearms is helping the situation? a small bit of decorum is all that is asked for. if you want to talk GUNS go to a private room..The real line of this thread should be how and when the shooting fraternity has stood together, helped each other and how we have had little victories and managed to show the courts and the doj we are using our firearms for the purpose we intended .Competitive target Shooting .
to all the successful firearms holders congrats. to the lads still fighting (like myself) keep the faith .to the walter mittys please keep stum as you are only hindering our appeals.

Sparks

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's hardly down to boards.ie.
Apart from anything else, thirty seconds shelf-browsing in Easons gets you far less... considered posts that even the worst extremes that you'd find in here. And that's only in the Irish shooting magazines, it's not even looking at the more... colourful magazines from across the water.

The real problem comes not from a few lads posting on the internet, or writing for magazines. It comes from some - and note please, to forestall the same tired argument, I said some and not all - of the cases taken in the last few years, and some of the tactics used by the more shouty members of our community. The minister will in general ignore most chatter as there's little point in chasing it; but when he gets personally sued or someone goes after him personally in the press, they put his votes at risk and then you've kicked the hornet's nest.

Esel

mymp9 wrote: »

... walter mitty charachters....to the walter mittys please keep stum as you are only hindering our appeals.

Nice 1st post. Btw, I'm sure your username will help the cause.

mymp9

well Sparks you are right , However ... on ranges showoffs with their big t shirts an commando type gear, costume changes mid competition for no other reason than "look at me" ... camo gear at a range for no other reason than to look like some sort of macho man. ok for hunting or even fishing ..but for target shooting??? drop leg holsters.?? bandannas??? where are we going? most real good shots just turn up say nothing (apart from a little light chat) and walk away with the silver ware. the big loud mouthed know all rarely can hit a house from the inside .but can talk up a storm when he has an audience. Shooting makes them feel big and strong of whatever . I shoot for the competition, the crack, the friendship. most people are the same but waltermitty thinks he is a bagdad candidate?? When a member of the gardai turns up on a range and sees these dudes what do you think he is saying to himself???

mymp9

esel wrote: »

Nice 1st post. Btw, I'm sure your username will help the cause.

just my point.. exactly;)

mymp9

esel wrote: »

Nice 1st post. Btw, I'm sure your username will help the cause.

the name is just to prove point.. what the Hell is that kinda stuff about..:D

Rovi

mymp9 wrote: »

well Sparks you are right , However ... on ranges showoffs with their big t shirts an commando type gear, costume changes mid competition for no other reason than "look at me" ... camo gear at a range for no other reason than to look like some sort of macho man. ok for hunting or even fishing ..but for target shooting??? drop leg holsters.?? bandannas??? where are we going? most real good shots just turn up say nothing (apart from a little light chat) and walk away with the silver ware. the big loud mouthed know all rarely can hit a house from the inside .but can talk up a storm when he has an audience. Shooting makes them feel big and strong of whatever . I shoot for the competition, the crack, the friendship. most people are the same but waltermitty thinks he is a bagdad candidate?? When a member of the gardai turns up on a range and sees these dudes what do you think he is saying to himself???

The things I've highlighted above are specifically prohibited at every club/range I know of in the Republic of Ireland. I'd be amazed if any of them were allowed at the few places I don't personally know about.

'Walter Mittys' are VERY quickly found out in the early stages of their interaction with the shooting community, and either don't make it into full membership or else realise the error of their ways and go on to become useful and productive members.

Loudmouths and bullshippers are to be found everywhere, and the shooting community is unfortunately no exception, but there are no laws against changing your clothes or wearing silly hats; once someone isn't bringing the sport into disrepute, there's nothing much to do but put up with it.
People who cross the line into being a liability to the community can and have been ejected from clubs and ranges.

Sparks

mymp9 wrote: »

When a member of the gardai turns up on a range and sees these dudes what do you think he is saying to himself???

The same thing they've been saying for the past forty or so years, I suspect.
What you're describing has been around at least as long as I've been shooting, and that predates the world wide web (in Ireland outside of colleges, at least).
Besides, that's more an argument for the better shooters to speak up, not to shut up...

Sparks

Rovi wrote: »

People who cross the line into being a liability to the community can and have been ejected from clubs and ranges.

And thankfully there have been precious few of those; though some have ignored those bannings and gone on to continue to do shouty things and try to bring the roof down on all of us, but what exactly can we do? It's still nominally a free country...

mymp9

A..'Walter Mittys' are VERY quickly found out in the early stages

B..Loudmouths and bullshippers are to be found everywhere,

C..People who cross the line into being a liability to the community can and have been ejected from clubs and ranges.

A. plenty still out there.

B.plenty still out there

C.Amen to that but some are too thick headed to go or are so dangerous that you cant say boo to them.

A reccommendation Sparks is what is needed, sponser for all potential new members of a club and put them on probation untill they have been vetted. Also training firearms in clubs not real ones for these newbies.If they go thru that they will benefit and earn their fellow members confidence.its simple really you dont just hand untrained inexperienced people firearms without training. anyone here who was or is in rdf or pdf or gardai or equivilant knows this .. how long did you have to wait before you fired a shot??? firearm husbandry.. thats another thing thats missing.

Rovi

mymp9 wrote: »

A..'Walter Mittys' are VERY quickly found out in the early stages

B..Loudmouths and bullshippers are to be found everywhere,

C..People who cross the line into being a liability to the community can and have been ejected from clubs and ranges.

A. plenty still out there.

B.plenty still out there

C.Amen to that but some are too thick headed to go or are so dangerous that you cant say boo to them.

A reccommendation Sparks is what is needed, sponser for all potential new members of a club and put them on probation untill they have been vetted. Also training firearms in clubs not real ones for these newbies.If they go thru that they will benefit and earn their fellow members confidence.its simple really you dont just hand untrained inexperienced people firearms without training. anyone here who was or is in rdf or pdf or gardai or equivilant knows this .. how long did you have to wait before you fired a shot??? firearm husbandry.. thats another thing thats missing.

Have you actually been on a civilian target shooting range in the Republic of Ireland recently?
All the stuff you suggest above, or very similar, is standard procedure in all the clubs I know of.
To state that someone who is "dangerous" might be immune from sanction or expulsion is, frankly, bizarre.

rrpc

mymp9 wrote: »

A reccommendation Sparks is what is needed, sponser for all potential new members of a club and put them on probation untill they have been vetted. Also training firearms in clubs not real ones for these newbies.If they go thru that they will benefit and earn their fellow members confidence.its simple really you dont just hand untrained inexperienced people firearms without training. anyone here who was or is in rdf or pdf or gardai or equivilant knows this .. how long did you have to wait before you fired a shot??? firearm husbandry.. thats another thing thats missing.

I don't know what club you're in, but most of the ones I know have pretty much all of the above in their rules: Sponsors, probation, training etc.

The clubs SI makes pretty much all of that mandatory in any case. So if there are some clubs not following procedures, they'll find out pretty sharpish when their authorisation is revoked.

lumphammer

sorry Rovi ..dangerous in a big mouthed way not with a firearm..

Sparks

mymp9 wrote: »

Amen to that but some are too thick headed to go or are so dangerous that you cant say boo to them.

:eek:
First off, it's not being too thickheaded to go, if you're banned off a range, you're legally banned and not going is trespassing at best.
Secondly, if they're dangerous then it's not 'boo' you need to be saying to them, and any RO who won't tell them where to get off should be stripped of their RO status for retraining!

A reccommendation Sparks is what is needed, sponser for all potential new members of a club and put them on probation untill they have been vetted.

Who'll vet them?
Besides, there's no right to club membership, and it can be rescinded at any time if it's a private club (though it's best to have documented procedures). So it's not a problem without a solution, just without a solver.

how long did you have to wait before you fired a shot?

About 20 minutes of instruction, but I was prone and strapped into the rifle with the RO practically sitting on me, just like every other DURC newbie. It's very easily done, if a bunch of college teenagers can do it for up to 400 people a year, every year for the past 40-odd years...

Grizzly 45

mymp9 wrote: »

A
A. plenty still out there.

B.plenty still out there

C.Amen to that but some are too thick headed to go or are so dangerous that you cant say boo to them.

A. Proof of ??
B .Proof of ??
C. Most definate proof of??And in the latter case ofwhat you say have you brought it to your club/Gardai attention???

A reccommendation Sparks is what is needed, sponser for all potential new members of a club and put them on probation untill they have been vetted.

Been vetted for what exactly???This has been the norm in the UK and the Continent now for quite awhile,but it didnt weed out the odd bods who decided to go off and sort out their old high school or whatever.In reality,they were the quiet silent types,who did everything by the book were sponsored and vetted. Kretschmer ,Winniden in Germany was the text book good club member.

Also training firearms in clubs not real ones for these newbies.If they go thru that they will benefit and earn their fellow members confidence

.

So what exactly do you classify as a training firearm??An airsoft??A blue rubber gun??An airpistol??? It would be fine if we had air weapons[sorry all for using the W word] off ticket like most of the EU does,and we could get more people involved and at little cost to them if they did or didnt like the sport at a younger age too.That is SOP in the EU,you are a probie for 6months on air guns before you can even consider powder guns,or getting near them to do your sports shooter liscense.However our firearms laws dont allow this,and why would you bother getting a "toy" when you can get a "real gun" in the first place with the same amount of hassle??
We need to get more people into the sport,but we cant discourage them either with making ,long lengthy pre requsites either.

*Sorry,at this point is this now giving the PTB more info than they should have,as this might "give them ideas??"Or do they already know this???

its simple really you dont just hand untrained inexperienced people firearms without training.

True,but then again how many people are out there using firearms that have never been in a club or formal training,and were taught by their parents,family etc and have never had an accident either??I'd be all for some sort of training on firearms,BUT the problem is here we have a tendency to over complexify relatively simple things.By and large any gun is a simple piece of engineering that is very dangerous if used incorrectly.It is alot simpler to use than a car or chainsaw or whatever.By and large if you are of average IQ,you should be able to absorb the basics of firearm saftey and usage within ten to 12 hours.Thats the average for the NRA basic firearms saftey course.Now how long and for how much do you think it would be erked out here for major financial gain and employing a Irish Govt approved firearms instructor??? If you are fammilar with getting a pilots liscense in Ireland,you will/would know what I mean.

anyone here who was or is in rdf or pdf or gardai or equivilant knows this .. how long did you have to wait before you fired a shot???

But still not
100%total safe accident free ,non nutter accessing firearms either.Been three I think "accidental deaths" with firearms in the Gardai over the last two years.One with a Full Auto UZI ,by an ex member of the force.We will assume they were completly vetted,trained and drilled in gun saftey too??Very tragic,and my sympathies go those left behind.But being in a professional body be it military or police is not a failsafe either.

firearm husbandry.. thats another thing thats missing.

Do you mean that people arent keeping their firearms in a proper order or????

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

it didnt weed out the odd bods who decided to go off and sort out their old high school or whatever.In reality,they were the quiet silent types,who did everything by the book were sponsored and vetted.

No they weren't. Ryan was as loopy as they come, and all his neighbours and work colleagues knew it; Hamilton was kicked out of every club he ever joined and only had his licence because the Scottish police failed to cross-check his application form with the club he said he was a member of; and Sartin didn't have a licence at all. You could make the case about Bird, but we don't know the full background of Bird yet, and lots of what we do know points to a man who was known to be under considerable mental stress, so it's hard to think that club members wouldn't have spotted that.

True,but then again how many people are out there using firearms that have never been in a club or formal training,and were taught by their parents,family etc and have never had an accident either?

That's a rather insipid argument given the recent changes in the driving licence system Grizzly. And given that shooting is so inherently safe that you're going to have very low accident rates anyway (compared to any other sporting activity).

how long and for how much do you think it would be erked out here for major financial gain and employing a Irish Govt approved firearms instructor?

There are ISO procedures for drafting up such courses in such a way that they can be run by anyone and yet maintain certification standards. It's how the entire college system works. And creating a monopoly would be something you'd have legal means of redress for even if it did happen.

If you are fammilar with getting a pilots liscense in Ireland,you will/would know what I mean.

I am and no, I don't know what you mean. If anything, the pilot's licence is proof of the opposite of what you're asserting.

Grizzly 45

No they weren't. Ryan was as loopy as they come, and all his neighbours and work colleagues knew it; Hamilton was kicked out of every club he ever joined and only had his licence because the Scottish police failed to cross-check his application form with the club he said he was a member of; and Sartin didn't have a licence at all. You could make the case about Bird, but we don't know the full background of Bird yet, and lots of what we do know points to a man who was known to be under considerable mental stress, so it's hard to think that club members wouldn't have spotted that.

Er Sparks I was talking about the most recent ones on the Continent.....Where these kind of saftey procedures in clubs were old hat long before they were even considerd in the UK????
As for Bird, there was no reason for him to be in a club in the UK either,all his stuff was shotgun cert and.22 which isnt a section1

That's a rather insipid argument given the recent changes in the driving licence system Grizzly. And given that shooting is so inherently safe that you're going to have very low accident rates anyway (compared to any other sporting activity).

Yeah,and how many people have cars opposed to firearms here in Ireland Sparks??If there were as many firearms deaths thru reckless usage of new gun owners as there on our roads in proportion to the pouplation.I would think anything that Dermo would throw at us would be justified.

There are ISO procedures for drafting up such courses in such a way that they can be run by anyone and yet maintain certification standards. It's how the entire college system works. And creating a monopoly would be something you'd have legal means of redress for even if it did happen

Very true,but how many people will do it for the love of the sport or for a way of making aload of money???AND that also depends on wether the Govt will allow it to be run and regulated by the shooting bodies..Which would be like letting the driving instructors of Ireland federation run the driving test and certify the testee as well.Or secondary schools be allowed to mark their own pupils papers in the Leaving.


I

am and no, I don't know what you mean. If anything, the pilot's licence is proof of the opposite of what you're asserting.

Maybe my info is abit old,but last time I enquired we had TWO approved dept of Transport,or IAA approved liscense issuers for PPL rating,provided your "current hours" were up you could do your PPL flight test within 6 plus months waiting time with 50 [?]current flight hours.
Now correct me if I am wrong ,but your average flite hour here is what??200 euros give or take??When I did it it was 120 punts per hour.Worked out as 7500 punts before you could consider your VFR PPL here.
Stateside that was your PPL and a quater of your instrument rating paid for. I hope this has changed since,but at one time when I was flying 18 years ago thats what they wanted off me to change a VFR PPL from the US to IRISH not even an EU qualification.
Point being,if there is a way of erking money out ofa qualification or anything involving such in Ireland.Somones eyes somwhere light up with Euro signs,and they deliver an over complex course or procedure,or a totally expensive substandard product.IOW who will test the testers??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Er Sparks I was talking about the most recent ones on the Continent

My error, misread you.

If there were as many firearms deaths thru reckless usage of new gun owners as there on our roads in proportion to the pouplation.I would think anything that Dermo would throw at us would be justified.

True, but the argument is still insipid because you're saying "look at the 99.9% of people who're not hurt"... which you could still say about driving, despite their exceptionally higher number of casualties each year. You have to look at the accident rates with and without formal training of some kind in order to have a proper argument that way.

how many people will do it for the love of the sport or for a way of making aload of money?

The entire point of that ISO approach is that it doesn't matter if the instructor is doing it for hobby or for money, the standard of training received by the student is the same. That's the more important thing. As to price-gouging by instructors, you find that that won't last very long at all if there's open competition, which the ISO system is set up to allow.

AND that also depends on wether the Govt will allow it to be run and regulated by the shooting bodies.

No, it'd be run the same way as the radio licence, the pilot's licence, the driving licence and every other similar licence - the government administers testing, and will in some cases certify courses/instructors; but the courses aren't run by the government, they can be run by anyone, for fun or for profit.

Maybe my info is abit old,but last time I enquired we had TWO approved dept of Transport,or IAA approved liscense issuers for PPL rating,provided your "current hours" were up you could do your PPL flight test within 6 plus months waiting time with 50 [?]current flight hours.
Now correct me if I am wrong ,but your average flite hour here is what??200 euros give or take??When I did it it was 120 punts per hour.Worked out as 7500 punts before you could consider your VFR PPL here.

Yes, and the biggest change in the last decade was moving to the JAA standards which increased your required hours from 36 to 40.
The testing standards are now governed by an international body, not the IAA, and while I've heard complaints about the cost and the IAA, I've never once in thirty-odd years of being within arm's reach of pilots, ever heard one complain that it took too many hours to get your PPL. Too few, yes, quite often, but never too many.

Stateside that was your PPL and a quater of your instrument rating paid for.

Yup, and it done in a week, and your statistical odds of dying in a pilot-error-caused plane crash now somewhere around triple that of someone who learnt in a non-intensive course. And that's not changed, though most now go to south africa and do the JAA test directly there. And pretty much every instructor or pilot I ever spoke to thought that the "holiday ppl", while being nice, didn't teach you how to fly safely - it just got you the ticket. You then had to go off and try to make it to the 300 hour mark without killing yourself; and your odds were lower than someone who took more time to get the 36-40 hours in.

Point being,if there is a way of erking money out ofa qualification or anything involving such in Ireland.Somones eyes somwhere light up with Euro signs,and they deliver an over complex course or procedure,or a totally expensive substandard product.IOW who will test the testers??

Again, this is what the ISO system was set up to prevent, and frankly, if it can work everywhere from Peru to Canada to Russia to Thailand, it can work here.

Bananaman

What is sweet jaysus has this to do with limerick DC appeals?

B'Man

Bananaman

Their may be claims of Walter mittys out there but there is also a shocking amount of 'well wait til you hear what i found out.....' or 'that's's true but according to this book I found in the stacks in trinity.....' and other oneupmanship that is - well frankly - boring

B'Man

Mr Mole

I whole heartedly agree with Bananaman. You have all lost the plot. The thread now unreadable, and cannot be followed, with the I said, you said, he said type of responses that only the few that are tit for tatting can vaguely understand.:(

mymp9

Exactly B'man and mole eggsactly here here. thnx to this type of rubbish the doj looks at us the same way we look at a charlie Chaplin Film Keystone cop scenario.
too many walter mittys..

mymp9

by the way Sparks you seem to know what you are talking about I dip my hat to your superior knowledge You must be involved inshooting and its organisaton for a good few years now.... safe hands.