Swimming lessons

BoycieIRL

Guys just looking for some advice.
The other half signed up our youngest (3r old) for swimming lessons - 150 for 10 weeks. so on week one he freaks out and dosnt want to go into the water on his own ||(parents are not allowed to accompany kids in the pool), so they say just bring him back next week & try again. Same scenario week 2 and he just wont get into the pool on his own for them. So the other half explains he's getting to upset about the whole thing can we leave it till the next class begins in Sept and he's a little older.
Reply is no - just keep trying him every week for the next 8 weeks as they dont do refunds. There is a sign to this effect but how legally binding is this.

TheDriver

they would be well within their rights on this, its not their fault your child won't go into the pool. However, out of goodwill, they could offer this so that you will use them again. However, I think they are doing nothing wrong and don't have to offer you any refund. I have done nightcourses before and I copped onto taking money when they book because people not turning up/change of mind etc was leaving me out of pocket and too late to fill the place to anyone else.

Cabaal

They are within their rights in fairness, by right before you booked anything you should have brought your kid to a pool to see if he'd be ok in the water before deciding to pay out money for any sort of water activity

BoycieIRL

Thanks Driver - i appreciate the point you make around night classes but as this is a beginners class for kids and most have never been in the pool before from my prospective i'm paying them to introduce him into the pool environment which i would assume is one of the fundamentals of learning a child to swim. At no time was i informed or can i see any reference that your child must be able to get into the pool on his/her own. just because they have another 20 kids in the pool that they are making money off i dont accept their stance of just bring him back next week and try again.

Cabaal

BoycieIRL wrote: »

f i dont accept their stance of just bring him back next week and try again.

You may not like it however this doesn't change the fact that legally they are not doing anything wrong,

gobo99

Why dont you try bringing him to a pool where you can get in with him. Once he's done it once and got over the initial fear of getting in you might be able to get your moneys worth from the lessons.

slowmoe

i dont know if you're in dublin but cheeverstown in temppleogue have a great pool to introduce kids to water. there is a main adult pool and a reasonably big kids pool with arm bands etc that comes up lower than knees. i've seen kids with toys there so maybe check with the pool if you can bring a favourite bath toy and tell him you're going for a play. Don't bother showing him any swim stuff, just to get him a bit more comfortable with the pool.

I think the pool are within their legal rights but i personally would feel a bit hard done by on this

Magenta

BoycieIRL wrote: »

from my prospective i'm paying them to introduce him into the pool environment which i would assume is one of the fundamentals of learning a child to swim.
At no time was i informed or can i see any reference that your child must be able to get into the pool on his/her own.

I'm not being smart, but you are paying them to teach him to swim, and he has to actually be in the water for that to happen.
You are not paying them to be child psychologists and go into the how's and why's of his fear.

It was your own responsibility to make sure the child is not afraid of the water before buying him swimming lessons. You're his parent, not them.
Would you buy him horseriding lessons and then blame the instructor when he is afraid of horses?

Cabaal

Magenta wrote: »

It was your own responsibility to make sure the child is not afraid of the water before buying him swimming lessons. You're his parent, not them.
Would you buy him horseriding lessons and then blame the instructor when he is afraid of horses?

Would you buy driving lessons for a 18 year old without first checking if they actually wanted to learn how to drive and didn't have some fear of driving...of course not

Domscard

the child is 3 years old! I know few if any 3 year olds who would go into a scary place like a pool without a parent. His/her fear has no suitable analogy to horses or cars IMO and the suggestion that hevshe should be made to face their fear every week rather than leave it until they're older is not the recommendation of a reputable trainer. I too would feel very hard done by here. The child isn't choosing not to attend and it would have been hard for the parent to know in advance that they wouldn't be allowed in with him/her. Those offering the training should have some child related knowledge - at least enough to advise parents correctly about expectations for 3 year olds.

amdublin

Domscard wrote: »

Those offering the training should have some child related knowledge - at least enough to advise parents correctly about expectations for 3 year olds.

Should the parents not know what the expectations/or what their three year old will or will not do???? Why would someone else have to advise them on this

The swimming instructors/person running the lesson cannot fill the space with anyone else so would lose money if they refund the money. At the end of the day it is not the person running the swimming class's fault that this three year will not do what is required.

Not to the parents satisfaction I admit, I understand their unhappiness but next time before booking a class etc they should ensure that their child is happy to go through all aspects of what it entails.

Cabaal

Domscard wrote: »

Those offering the training should have some child related knowledge - at least enough to advise parents correctly about expectations for 3 year olds.

The parents should know their own child better then anyone, why is it easier for people to "blame someone else" then take responsibility for something thats very basic that they should have ensured themselves before hand (that their kid would be ok in water)?

Its not rocket science and as such it should have been checked by the parent before hand

Fluffybums

I have had a child like that in my lessons. The child kept coming back and did eventually get in and I think managed the width front and back paddle by the end of the 10 weeks. That said I did speak to the mother and pint out that no matter what I did or how good a teacher or any of my colleagues were the child would never trust me like its parents and as such I could never get over that fear in a group basis (even 1-2-1 it would be very difficult). I advised the parents to bring the child down themselves, that mother said she was freighted of the water, more power to her for not wanting her child to be the same, even if she only sat on the step and kicked the water with the child. Not sure if the parent followed my advice but the child got in after about 3-4 weeks.

No how good the teacher, the child will never trust a stranger as much as the parent in a situation which freightens it, so it down to the parent.

MsHolloway

Why not bring your child to the pool on a different day when you can go into the water with him? This way he can get used to the water while feeling safe with his parent. Once the day of the lesson comes around he might be more comfortable going into the water without you.

You might as well make the most out of it, it doesn't look likely you will get any refund or get to reschedule classes. And as others have said they are well within their rights.

Magenta

Domscard wrote: »

His/her fear has no suitable analogy to horses or cars IMO

Why not?

You can't ride a horse without coming into contact with... a horse.
You can't drive a car without coming into contact with... a car.
You can't swim in water without coming into contact with... you wanna take a guess?

Also, I feel it's very selfish of a parent to expect the instructor to deal with the child's fear within a group setting.
How much of the lesson should be spent on coaxing ONE child?
If I enrolled a child in swimming lessons and the lesson was spent on coaxing one child rather than teaching mine and the others to actually swim, I would be annoyed. Mostly because I would have had the foresight to make sure my child wasn't afraid of water before expecting him to spend 10 lessons in it.

rubadub

BoycieIRL wrote: »

he freaks out and dosnt want to go into the water on his own ||(parents are not allowed to accompany kids in the pool)

I can imagine they do not want parents with the kids right up with the kids at the actual lessons, but do they not even allow you down some other end of the pool? I remember I did go swimming and there were classes for kids, the toddlers would be floating around on rings with parents down the other end. The smaller kids would see the others all swimming about and want to join in. I would have thought you would go with the child to the pool at another time anyway but it might be even better if they get a chance to see what is going on and actually want to join in.

BoycieIRL

Thanks for your views guys. To answer some of your replies. I have brought him to the pool b4 the lessons began and he has no prob in the water it seems once his parents are there. I did offer to get in the pool to help him to adjust ( i dont expect the instructors to dedicate their time to my child solely).
For a young childs beginners class i would expect them to introduce the kids to the pool, from other people i have spoken to their kids were introduced to the pool environment , session having the kids put their faces into the water etc. Im just sorry those pools are too far away from me.
Sorry if this sounds like a rant but i guess it's just a response to the attitude received "just keep bringing him back". Rant over, frustration vented. Guess i just wanted to see if people found the pools attitude acceptable and if i could do anything about it.

Pixied

Did you mention there are 20 in the class? If so, I think that is far too many children, if aged around 3, to teach. Children around that age need much more attention.

I can understand the no refund policy, but maybe they could have been a little more customer friendly about it, for example maybe offered you a discount for next term or allowed you to be in the water somewhere. Afterall, one set of swimming lessons can lead to more, and repeat business is where the real money is..I think stick with building up his confidence in the pool in question though.

Cabaal

Pixied wrote: »

Did you mention there are 20 in the class? If so, I think that is far too many children, if aged around 3, to teach. Children around that age need much more attention.

But we don't know how many instructors are present so hard to tell if thats too much,

the_syco

Domscard wrote: »

the child is 3 years old! I know few if any 3 year olds who would go into a scary place like a pool without a parent.

I know of 15: I used to teach them.

Magenta wrote: »

You can't swim in water without coming into contact with... you wanna take a guess?

OO! OO! OO! ME! ME! ME! It's... moondust! Amiright? Do I get a gold star? :rolleyes:

Pixied wrote: »

Did you mention there are 20 in the class? If so, I think that is far too many children, if aged around 3, to teach. Children around that age need much more attention.

Not really. In the place where I taught, all the other classes had about 10 kids to one teacher. In the animal lane, there'd be 15 to 20 kids to 2 or 3 teachers (there would be kids that always came, and kids that we rarely saw). Maybe 3 of said kids will be actually swimming, another 2 moving from one side to the other (I wouldn't call it swimming:D) and the rest would be gripping the bar on the side of the pool for dear life They'd all be making as big a splash as they could.

When I first started swimming, I was learning alongside a mate. See does any of the childs mates parents want their kid to learn how to swim, and get them to go together.

Domscard

From the American Academy of Pediatrics:
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;105/4/868

1. Children are generally not developmentally ready for swimming lessons until after their fourth birthday.
2. Whenever infants and toddlers are in or around water, an adult should be within an arm's length providing touch supervision.
3. All aquatic programs should include information on the cognitive and motor limitations of infants and toddlers.

There is a large body of research backing this information and these recommendations - I would question any pool, trainer or organisation that thinks and acts otherwise and deem them to be failing in their duty of care.

ttm

At last some common sence!

the_syco

ttm wrote: »

At last some common sence!

Did some checking. Seems the kids I taught were all over 5.

Domscard

ttm wrote: »

At last some common sence!

Alas, unfortunately sense is often very uncommon.
I think the OP should go back to the pool involved and, at the very least, insist that the lessons be deferred until their child is over 4 or developmentally ready to be taught swimming (whichever is the later). If it came to an appeal for the return of their money, I believer they'd have a very good case.

Pixied

I also feel age 3 is too young for lessons. My previous point in regard to 20 children aged in the region of 3 or 4 being too many in a pool was made regardless of the amount of teachers..children that age can panic easily and are too young for that type of environment. If they get a fright early on in life in regard to water,it can have longlasting effects.

Any lessons I have seen advertised have been from the age of 4 and in smaller classes. I think the OP should have been guided more by the swimming teacher..

mlmcelligott

I don’t think 3 is too young for lessons provided the child is enjoying him or herself. I worked as a swimming instructor for 6 years and have seen loads of kids terrified to get into the water but there are a few tricks.

Firstly anything that is forced will cause a resistance and it sounds to me like the child doesn’t know what’s going on so it’s up to the parent to prepare them. In the shower at home encourage the child to wash his/her face with the shower nozzle, this gets the child’s face wet which is half the battle. You can’t just spray water on the Childs face yourself because they have to be in control and do it themselves or else they won’t thank you for it. When you have achieved this then move on to a bath and get the child to wash his/her face with water to once again get their face wet. Turn it into a game by using toys like a toy watering can to make it fun. If they are getting confident then try to get them to "blow bubbles" into the water.

Now you are ready to take them to the swimming pool. If it’s their first time in a swimming pool I would always advise that at least one parent get into the water with the child. Once in their swimming togs, always make sure you let them take a shower in the changing room or better still on the side of the pool if there are showers available. This gets the child wet and they won’t get as much a shock when they get into the cold swimming pool. The last thing to do is walk them with their hand in yours around the pool and leave them have a look at all the kids playing, this will settle their nerves and they will want to be part of the fun too. Lastly always leave them get into the water on their own. One trick is the ask the lifeguard to hold their hand while you hop in and when they get cold and realise they are standing beside a stranger they don’t know they wont be long following you!

One last thing that ive seen time and time again - Nearly every child at some point in a swimming pool has a scare where they get a mouth full of water and want to get out straight away. The worst thing you can do as a parent is take them out or even let them sit on the side, instead bring them to the shallow end of the edge and stay beside them. If they get out the chances of them getting back in are slim and they will probably develop a complex and never want to go swimming again.

Domscard

mlmcelligott wrote: »

I don’t think 3 is too young for lessons provided the child is enjoying him or herself. I worked as a swimming instructor for 6 years and have seen loads of kids terrified to get into the water but there are a few tricks.

Firstly anything that is forced will cause a resistance and it sounds to me like the child doesn’t know what’s going on so it’s up to the parent to prepare them. In the shower at home encourage the child to wash his/her face with the shower nozzle, this gets the child’s face wet which is half the battle. You can’t just spray water on the Childs face yourself because they have to be in control and do it themselves or else they won’t thank you for it. When you have achieved this then move on to a bath and get the child to wash his/her face with water to once again get their face wet. Turn it into a game by using toys like a toy watering can to make it fun. If they are getting confident then try to get them to "blow bubbles" into the water.

Now you are ready to take them to the swimming pool. If it’s their first time in a swimming pool I would always advise that at least one parent get into the water with the child. Once in their swimming togs, always make sure you let them take a shower in the changing room or better still on the side of the pool if there are showers available. This gets the child wet and they won’t get as much a shock when they get into the cold swimming pool. The last thing to do is walk them with their hand in yours around the pool and leave them have a look at all the kids playing, this will settle their nerves and they will want to be part of the fun too. Lastly always leave them get into the water on their own. One trick is the ask the lifeguard to hold their hand while you hop in and when they get cold and realise they are standing beside a stranger they don’t know they wont be long following you!

One last thing that ive seen time and time again - Nearly every child at some point in a swimming pool has a scare where they get a mouth full of water and want to get out straight away. The worst thing you can do as a parent is take them out or even let them sit on the side, instead bring them to the shallow end of the edge and stay beside them. If they get out the chances of them getting back in are slim and they will probably develop a complex and never want to go swimming again.

This is very sensible advice for parents on a one-to-one informal basis with their own child. In terms of formal lessons in a swimming pool with a tutor, as in the OP's case, the situation is radically different and international best practice guidelines are very clear.