Ice Baths

WHIP IT!

I like icebaths

Will Heffernan

...just in case you find another video of a dude in a tight t-shirt dropping knowledge bombs and then afterwards saying stuff like...'did that just happen?'

I'll post some more.

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2005 Dec 22;:1-9 [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links

Post-exercise leg and forearm flexor muscle cooling in humans attenuates endurance and resistance training effects on muscle performance and on circulatory adaptation.

Yamane M, Teruya H, Nakano M, Ogai R, Ohnishi N, Kosaka M.

Laboratory for Exercise Physiology and Biomechanics, Chukyo University, 101 Tokodachi, Kaizu-cho Toyota, 470-0393, Aichi, Japan, myamane@cnc.chukyo-u.ac.jp.

The influence of regular post-exercise cold application to exercised muscles trained by ergometer cycling (leg muscles) or handgrip exercise using a weight-loaded handgrip ergometer (forearm flexor muscles) was studied in human volunteers. Muscle loads were applied during exercise programs three to four times a week for 4-6 weeks. Besides measuring parameters characterizing muscle performance, femoral and brachial artery diameters were determined ultrasonographically. Training effects were identified by comparing pre- and post-training parameters in matched groups separately for the trained limbs cooled after exercise by cold-water immersion and the corresponding trained limbs kept at room temperature. Significant training effects were three times more frequent in the control than in the cold group, including increases in artery diameters in the control but not in the cold group. It is concluded that training-induced molecular and humoral adjustments, including muscle hyperthermia, are physiological, transient and essential for training effects (myofiber regeneration, muscle hypertrophy and improved blood supply). Cooling generally attenuates these temperature-dependent processes and, in particular, hyperthermia-induced HSP formation. This seems disadvantageous for training, in contrast to the beneficial combination of rest, ice, compression and elevation in the treatment of macroscopic musculo-tendinous damage.

or this one?

Auton Neurosci. 2010 Apr 17. [Epub ahead of print]
Effect of cold or thermoneutral water immersion on post-exercise heart rate recovery and heart rate variability indices.

Al Haddad H, Laursen PB, Chollet D, Lemaitre F, Ahmaidi S, Buchheit M.

Laboratoire de Recherche, EA 3300 <<Adaptations physiologiques à l'exercice et réadaptation à l'effort>> Faculté des Sciences du Sport, Université de Picardie Jules Verne, F-80025, Amiens, France; Laboratoire de Recherche EA-3832 << Centre d'études des transformations en activité physique et sportive >> Faculté des Sciences du Sport, Université de Rouen, F-76000 Mont Saint Aignan, France.
Abstract

This study aimed to investigate the effect of cold and thermoneutral water immersion on post-exercise parasympathetic reactivation, inferred from heart rate (HR) recovery (HRR) and HR variability (HRV) indices. Twelve men performed, on three separate occasions, an intermittent exercise bout (all-out 30-s Wingate test, 5min seated recovery, followed by 5min of submaximal running exercise), randomly followed by 5min of passive (seated) recovery under either cold (CWI), thermoneutral water immersion (TWI) or control (CON) conditions. HRR indices (e.g., heart beats recovered in the first minute after exercise cessation, HRR(60)(s)) and vagal-related HRV indices (i.e., natural logarithm of the square root of the mean of the sum of the squares of differences between adjacent normal R-R intervals (Ln rMSSD)) were calculated for the three recovery conditions. HRR(60)(s) was faster in water immersion compared with CON conditions [30+/-9beatsmin(-)(1) for CON vs. 43+/- 10beatsmin(-)(1) for TWI (P=0.003) and 40+/-13beatsmin(-)(1) for CWI (P=0.017)], while no difference was found between CWI and TWI (P=0.763). Ln rMSSD was higher in CWI (2.32+/-0.67ms) compared with CON (1.98+/-0.74ms, P=0.05) and TWI (2.01+/-0.61ms, P=0.08; aES=1.07) conditions, with no difference between CON and TWI (P=0.964). Water immersion is a simple and efficient means of immediately triggering post-exercise parasympathetic activity, with colder immersion temperatures likely to be more effective at increasing parasympathetic activity.

or this one...which was a review of a number of other studies?

Br J Sports Med. 2009 Nov 27. [Epub ahead of print]
What is the biochemical and physiological rationale for using Cold Water Immersion in Sports Recovery? A Systematic Review.

Bleakley CM, Davison GW.

University of ulster, Jordanstown, United Kingdom;

Cold-water immersion (CWI) is a popular recovery intervention after exercise. The scientific rationale is not clear and there are no clear guidelines for it use. The aim of this review was to study the physiological and biochemical effect of short periods of CWI. A computer based literature search, citation tracking and related articles searches were undertaken. Primary research studies using healthy human participants, immersed in cold water (<15 degrees C), for 5-minute durations or less were included. Data were extracted on body temperature, cardiovascular, respiratory, and biochemical response. 16 studies were included. Sample size was restricted and there was large degree of study heterogeneity. CWI was associated with an increase in heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory minute volume and metabolism. Decreases in end tidal PCO2, and a decrease in cerebral blood flow was also reported. There was evidence of increases in peripheral catecholamine concentration, oxidative stress and a possible increase in free radical species formation. The magnitude of these responses may be attenuated with acclimatisation. CWI induces significant physiological and biochemical changes to the body. Much of this evidence is derived from full body immersions using resting healthy participants. The physiological and biochemical rationale for using short periods of CWI in sports recovery still remains unclear.

or this one?

J Strength Cond Res. 2009 Aug 10. [Epub ahead of print]Click here to read Links
The Effects of Recovery Interventions on Consecutive Days of Intermittent Sprint Exercise.
King M, Duffield R.

Exercise and Sports Science Laboratories, School of Human Movement Studies, Charles Sturt University, Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia.

King, M and Duffield, R. The effects of recovery interventions on consecutive days of intermittent sprint exercise. J Strength Cond Res 23(x): 000-000, 2009-The purpose of this study was to compare four recovery interventions following simulated team sport, intermittent-sprint exercise on consecutive days. Ten female netball players performed four randomized sessions of a simulated netball exercise circuit on consecutive days. Each condition consisted of two identical sessions (Session 1 and 2), with the recovery intervention implemented at the completion of Session 1. Participants performed all interventions involving: passive recovery, active recovery (ACT), cold water immersion (CWI) and contrast water therapy (CTWT). No significant differences (p > 0.05) were evident between conditions for exercise performance (vertical jump, 20-m sprint, 10-m sprint, total circuit time) during Session 2. Effect size data indicated trends for an ameliorated decline in 5 x 20-m sprints and vertical jump for CTWT and CWI, respectively. CTWT demonstrated a significant reduction (p = 0.04) in lactate post-intervention compared to ACT recovery. Further, ACT recovery resulted in a significantly elevated (p < 0.01) heart rate compared to all other conditions postintervention and demonstrated significantly higher (p < 0.01) rating of perceived exertion postintervention and muscle soreness pre-exercise Session 2. It is likely that while interventions may be applicable to team sport practices, the 24-hour recovery period between exercise bouts was sufficient to allow performance to be maintained, regardless of recovery interventions.

or this one which I will throw in because this one also looked specifically at hot water immersion as well as cold...and guess what it found?

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2007 Nov 3; [Epub ahead of print] Links
Effect of hydrotherapy on the signs and symptoms of delayed onset muscle soreness.
Vaile J, Halson S, Gill N, Dawson B.

Department of Physiology, Australian Institute of Sport, PO Box 176, Belconnen, ACT, Australia, jo.vaile@ausport.gov.au.

This study independently examined the effects of three hydrotherapy interventions on the physiological and functional symptoms of delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS). Strength trained males (n = 38) completed two experimental trials separated by 8 months in a randomised crossover design; one trial involved passive recovery (PAS, control), the other a specific hydrotherapy protocol for 72 h post-exercise; either: (1) cold water immersion (CWI: n = 12), (2) hot water immersion (HWI: n = 11) or (3) contrast water therapy (CWT: n = 15). For each trial, subjects performed a DOMS-inducing leg press protocol followed by PAS or one of the hydrotherapy interventions for 14 min. Weighted squat jump, isometric squat, perceived pain, thigh girths and blood variables were measured prior to, immediately after, and at 24, 48 and 72 h post-exercise. Squat jump performance and isometric force recovery were significantly enhanced (P < 0.05) at 24, 48 and 72 h post-exercise following CWT and at 48 and 72 h post-exercise following CWI when compared to PAS. Isometric force recovery was also greater (P < 0.05) at 24, 48, and 72 h post-exercise following HWI when compared to PAS. Perceived pain improved (P < 0.01) following CWT at 24, 48 and 72 h post-exercise. Overall, CWI and CWT were found to be effective in reducing the physiological and functional deficits associated with DOMS, including improved recovery of isometric force and dynamic power and a reduction in localised oedema. While HWI was effective in the recovery of isometric force, it was ineffective for recovery of all other markers compared to PAS.

See that...I didn't include a single reference to any of those find academic and research institutions like bodybuilding.com, t-nation.com or even muscular development

Will Heffernan

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I like icebaths

Personally I hate them and never use them myself.

ManannanMacLir

Kelly Starrett (the 'dude in the tight t-shirt') is one of the most respected voices in the area of sports injury prehab/rehab. Out of interest, have you heard of him and disagree with him or not heard of him at all?

Bruce7

Cill94 wrote: »

For your body to heal anything there needs to be blood flowing to the area. Applying cold things to a muscle draws all the blood away from it and, in my experience, only makes it stiffer.

Strange. When blood flows to my area it makes it stiffer, but when cold things are applied to it it becomes much more supple and mobile.

Cill94

Bruce7 wrote: »

Strange. When blood flows to my area it makes it stiffer, but when cold things are applied to it it becomes much more supple and mobile.

That's odd. Blood flow to the muscle warms it and should make it looser.

ManannanMacLir

Cill94 wrote: »

That's odd. Blood flow to the muscle warms it and should make it looser.

You do know he's talking about his knob right?

Will Heffernan

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

Kelly Starrett (the 'dude in the tight t-shirt') is one of the most respected voices in the area of sports injury prehab/rehab.

He isn't actually. That statement is just not true. I really don't want to get into this because it's pointless. Some of the stuff he comes out with is fine. I like a lot of the stuff he's done mainly because it is the same stuff I've been doing for 20 years now.

I was writing mobility and stability work into programs in 1993...and do you know why that was...that's because Geoff Damm, Harry Wardle and Julian Jones told me to and showed me how to back then. They did so because it was common practice. I can name a lot of people who are actually the most respected voices in the area of sports injury prefab/rehab and Kelly Starrett wouldn't make my top 100.

Because it is new to you...because crossfit says it's cool...because the interweb says so doesn't make it true.

How many strength and conditioning coaches of Olympic gold medallists can you name without google that are famous on the internetz? How many of the strength and conditioning coaches of premiership football teams can you name?

Now how many Kelly Starrett's and Charles Poliquinn's can you name?

Being good at what you do isn't a prerequisite to being famous on the internet.

Out of interest, have you heard of him and disagree with him or not heard of him at all?

I've heard of him because people have mentioned him. I don't have strong feeling toward him positively or negatively. If he's encouraging people to do more mobility work then that is great BUT PLEASE do not try and tell me that he's one of the most respected voices in the area of sports injury prehab/rehab because that is just laughable and insulting to people who actually work in the area.

Edit: That BUT PLEASE is not me yelling...that is me begging and pleading in a semi whining tone for people not to say stuff like that because it is actually upsetting.

ManannanMacLir

Jaysus, talk about a chip on your shoulder!

Will Heffernan

ManannanMacLir wrote: »

Jaysus, talk about a chip on your shoulder!

LOL. Really? That's what you think this is about.

This is how it seems to work here on boards.ie.

1. Someone says something dumb.
2. I try to tell them they are wrong.
3. They get upset because they lost some interweb cred (which as we know is super important) and decide to battle on with a dumb argument.
4. I have to go to greater lengths to explain and point out to them that what they said was incorrect and their argument is based on a lack of understanding and their incorrect assumption.
5. Everyone sort of cringes and just thinks I am mean.
6. Them or others will come back and make some sort of personal attack.

No one thanks me. No one seems to appreciates it.

Listen...how about you just take all you training, supplement and recovery advice from experts like Kelly Starrett and Cill94.

I won't mention another thing and will just go back to lurking here rather than trying to help and or trying to raise the standard of debate a little.

Peace out...consider my light well and truly back under my bushel.

Will Heffernan

Just so people don't think I am being a big headed meanie pants for no particular reason...here a few things that the experts in the video might want to consider...and you guys might as well...even the ones who just take the interweb as gospel.

1. There isn't much if any research that supports the contension they are making...that cold is bad and that heat is good and that a hot tub is better than an ice bath.

2. The application of heat packs will effect surface temperature of the skin but below 2 cm down the body temp will remain unchanged.

3. This thread was on 'ice baths' and was in relation to 'improving recovery from training'...ignoring that and now considering the application of heat either superficially by way of a heat pack or systemically by way of immersion (hot tub) you can look at these methods this way...say with a heat pack you will increase in superficial tissue temperature and will causes an increase in the cutaneous blood flow, for as long as the pack stays 'hot', due to peripheral vasodilation. If you want to go the route of the video and immerse yourself in hot water what you will also get is an increase in heart rate. This increase in heart rate may also actually reduce the stroke volume due to lack of cardiac filling time, but overall cardiac output will increase...that's fine.

4. With immersion in hot water and with this increase in cardiac output along with the decrease in peripheral resistance and an increase in the cutaneous and subcutaneous blood flow which will give you better permeability of blood vessels and better lymphatic drainage...you get better nutrient delivery and waste removal in the areas affected...this all sounds great right...and it is...when you are not injured...which is what is so dumb about what Starrett and whoever that other dude that is talking rubbish is saying if you happen to have an injury.
a) If it is just a heat pack you are talking about...these changes happen in the skin not the muscle.
b) If you do it via a hot tub as they suggested...what you will actually find is that blood flow in the muscle is reduced. Hot water immersion doesn't cause an increase in blood flow in the muscle...it decreases it. That's not helping get those macrophages into the muscle and everything else he said.
c) Cold water immersion actually does the opposite...in that it decreases peripheral blood flow and actually INCREASES the blood flow IN the muscle. So you get out...having increased the blood flow in the muscle...removed debris etc etc and all the stuff they are talking about and then your body clears it all away.

Just a little break here...do you follow what I am saying....what they are actually talking about shows that they have no idea what they are talking about and that as I said...they don't understand even basic physiology in this regard.

My guess is that they probably do understand it and they are just trying to be 'contrary' because saying dumb stuff as happens a lot in the 'industry' gets you a lot more coverage. Because what they are talking about is just 'dumb' anyone who has done even basic physiology knows it's dumb. That isn't me having a chip on my shoulder...that is just me pointing out the obvious.

These are not my opinions...if anyone would like the papers and or research that back this up let me know and I will send them to you.

d) They are talking about inflammation being 'good' and 'desirable' well the application of heat superficially or via immersion does achieve this this 'good' that they are talking about...in fact it does this excellently. The only problem with this is that inflammation and swelling have been well documented in delaying recovery time. What they are talking about is so good at increasing inflammation and swelling that studies have shown that hot water immersion of ankle joints after injury leads to a 25% increase in ankle size compared to a 2-3% increase with cold water immersion which unfortunately leads to increased pain and increased recovery time significantly.

I am not trying to be an a-hole. People say stuff here and others believe it. You guys watch videos of a guy like the one here and believe it. That scares the crap out of me.

Like I said...if someone wants to post up links to papers that demonstrate that I am wrong that would be great but I doubt very much that I've not already seen them.

On the flipside of that...if anyone doubts what I am saying just tell me what you've got an issue with and I will send you the research to back it up.

mushykeogh

Aaaahhhhhhh, all of a sudden, the monotony of Boards has been broken, the fireworks are back .

Ice baths were good, now they are bad, they will continue to be bad for a while before we realise actually, they were good after all!

Stench Blossoms

Will Heffernan wrote: »

No one thanks me. No one seems to appreciates it.

I appreciate you and love reading your posts as I know they aren't bullsh!t. Keep up the good work.

connollys

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

I appreciate you and love reading your posts as I know they aren't bullsh!t. Keep up the good work.

Seconded, always an interesting read Will, delighted to see you back posting recently.

Will Heffernan

Stench Blossoms wrote: »

I appreciate you and love reading your posts as I know they aren't bullsh!t. Keep up the good work.

connollys wrote: »

Seconded, always an interesting read Will, delighted to see you back posting recently.

Thanks peoples

I actually meant no one who is WRONG appreciates me...LOL.

I thought people would appreciate my change in posting style...I've tried not to call anyone a retard or an idiot...I've tried not to call anyone dumb (which has been really really hard)...I've switched to 'Incorrect' rather than just 'You're WRONG' but unfortunately and apparently I am still coming off as a complete d*ck with a huge ego who is completely condescending and obnoxious.

I suppose it doesn't matter how hard I try I can't hide my true personality.

nobbo

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I thought people would appreciate my change in posting style...I've tried not to call anyone a retard or an idiot....

When I was lurking about reading your posts I preferred when ya called em idiots, got a bit of a laugh while getting some decent info...

davmol

You are always appreciated on this site Will,although some dont say it.You dispel the BS and bro science that is all too common on this site and help us get down to the nitty gritty.

Some guys you counter are just hurt that they have been challenged and arent the big man in the gym anymore cos they have been humbled.

keep up the good work

WHIP IT!

davmol wrote: »

You are always appreciated on this site Will,although some dont say it. You dispel the BS and bro science that is all too common on this site and help us get down to the nitty gritty.

I'll agree with the first half of your sentence but not so much with the bit I've bolded. I find that the H&F forum is, mercifully, usually pretty much bro-science free... personally, I think keeping an eye on this forum is one of the smartest things you can do if you're trying to take your H&F seriously. There are some wonderful contributers here (Will included) who really know their stuff and the stickies alone are worth repeated visits. Tis a very valuable resource and has helped me immeasurably over the last 3/4 years.

Hammar

Indeed, your input is always appreciated on here Will.
The worrying part of all this, in the GAA section,the same poster started a ridiculous thread but stated

Cill94 wrote: »

I'm doing a Sport Science course

Now i'm not trying to flame,and i don't know what course/college it is,but you would have to question what exactly is being taught in some of these courses when this guy is coming out with such broscience.

Chancer3001

*jumps headfirst into the discussion*

Only thing Ive heard (from a decent source that is) regarding Ice baths is that they may actually stop the "little tears" in the muscle after a heavy session.

Stopping the tears isnt what you want though, becuase you need them to be built back up to get the muscle bigger.


I was only really listening to this conversation, not really taking part cos I have no intention in the world ever ever ever of jumping into an ice bath.

I think I'd die.

Inspector Coptoor

Ice baths are so last year.

Cryotherapy is where it's at.

Will Heffernan

nobbo wrote: »

When I was lurking about reading your posts I preferred when ya called em idiots, got a bit of a laugh while getting some decent info...

I have grown up now.

davmol wrote: »

You are always appreciated on this site Will,although some dont say it.You dispel the BS and bro science that is all too common on this site and help us get down to the nitty gritty.

Some guys you counter are just hurt that they have been challenged and arent the big man in the gym anymore cos they have been humbled.

keep up the good work

Thanks.

People just take it the wrong way. People need to not talk in absolutes and the best way to learn is to always to be ready to be wrong. I don't just make stuff up...all the things I say are based on evidence both academically and from experience. If people are certain of what they are saying all they need to do is convince me...and by convince me...and I mean show me the research (Muscular Development is not a research publication).

You need to have an open mind because some research is better than others...researchers aren't perfect and you can't look at a single study and go 'See I told you so!'...you need to look at the preponderance of evidence.

Some people need to know when to cut their losses as well.

WHIP IT! wrote: »

I'll agree with the first half of your sentence but not so much with the bit I've bolded. I find that the H&F forum is, mercifully, usually pretty much bro-science free... personally, I think keeping an eye on this forum is one of the smartest things you can do if you're trying to take your H&F seriously. There are some wonderful contributers here (Will included) who really know their stuff and the stickies alone are worth repeated visits. Tis a very valuable resource and has helped me immeasurably over the last 3/4 years.

It is a forum like any other...that is not meant to come off bad. I think some people are scared to voice their opinions for fear of getting bagged or shouted down...which is a pity. They say there's no such thing as a stupid question...which isn't true...but I think the knowledgeable people here are always happy to answer a stupid question if its asked honestly.

I just hate it when people talk in absolutes like what they are saying is fact when it is just their opinion and that just annoys me.

Anyway...I hope more people contribute and ask more questions and interact more.

From my perspective...if I say something and it doesn't make sense or you think or have heard something different I've no problem with either clarifying or discussing it.

I think one of the problems here for people who don't know or haven't met me is that they read my posts in the wrong tone. I am trying to work on that as well.

Hammar wrote: »

Indeed, your input is always appreciated on here Will.

Thanks.

The worrying part of all this, in the GAA section,the same poster started a ridiculous thread but stated

Now i'm not trying to flame,and i don't know what course/college it is,but you would have to question what exactly is being taught in some of these courses when this guy is coming out with such broscience.

I wasn't having a go at the poster...believe it or not...I was trying to help. Everyone has to start somewhere. A lot of people get interested in sports science reading Muscular Development or Health and Fitness or online reading bodybuilding.com or t-nation...that is great. Like I was saying the other day...I've seen Mike Boyle fans who talked the talk and walked the walk...they were completely indoctrinated and immersed in everything Mike Boyle. I've argued with these people online and in person over certain matters....do you have any idea how embarrassed and foolish these people were 3 years later when Mike Boyle does a complete 180...he wasn't as tied to his ideas as theye were....I am using this as an example...it happens all the time you need to understand the basics, you need to put them into practice, you can't get tied down to stuff you don't really understand.

I hope that poster takes it in the 'right way'...I mean asks more questions, does more reading, gains more experience.

Chancer3001 wrote: »

*jumps headfirst into the discussion*

Only thing Ive heard (from a decent source that is) regarding Ice baths is that they may actually stop the "little tears" in the muscle after a heavy session.

Stopping the tears isnt what you want though, becuase you need them to be built back up to get the muscle bigger.


I was only really listening to this conversation, not really taking part cos I have no intention in the world ever ever ever of jumping into an ice bath.

I think I'd die.

Always be jumping in.

I've had this discussion with lots of people as well.

Lets think this through...I will put this down quick but if it's not enough let me know and I will go into more detail.

Did you read what I wrote earlier? If we just look at ice bath vs hot tub to keep it simple and have the two extremes.

Important Point - Hot water immersion doesn't cause an increase in blood flow in the muscle...it decreases it.

Important Point - Cold water immersion actually does the opposite...in that it decreases peripheral blood flow and actually INCREASES the blood flow IN the muscle.

What can we take from this?

The argument goes like this....don't use ice baths because it reduces inflammation....you need inflammation....inflammation is damaged muscle and activity with regards healing and you need damaged muscle and healing activity to have a response and adapt etc etc.

The problem with that argument is this....in the ice bath you are decreasing peripheral blood flow but you are increasing the blood flow and activity inside the muscle...you want fresh nutrients, you want the cleaning away of debris, you want healing activity...you get all those.

I was serious before when I said I hate ice baths. I never use them and it is one of those things that I don't talk to athletes about because if you like them and think they are great...I want you to use them and feel awesome.

If you don't like them then I am not going to force you into them because I don't want you to feel like ****.

Ive always loved hot tubs and when I was at the AIS I used them after every session....I'd sit in the hot tub for 5 minutes then jump into the plunge pool beside it. This was great. I felt great and that was more important than any physiological effect it had.

As with everything and anything training related....for example...I know I should consume 0.3-0.5g/kg of protein and 0.3-1.5g/kg of carbohydrate post training....sometimes I do most times I don't....guess what...my muscles don't fall off, my performance neither goes up now down...the most important thing is that you try to do the right things as often as possible.

Anyway...saying hot tubs are universally bad is retarded, saying ice baths are universally bad is retarded.....as with everything in the health and fitness industry it's a pendulum and it swings from one side to the other...the safest place to be is right in the middle.