SF now the largest political party in the north.

aDeener

owenc wrote: »

so they do have a religion then!

no he means that they currently are of no religion, but catholic/protestant/jewish is how they were raised/who they associate with

Iwasfrozen

aDeener wrote: »

no he means that they currently are of no religion, but catholic/protestant/jewish is how they were raised/who they associate with

And in the case of Jewish it's their race.

Regardless if one believes in theology or not one can still identify culturally with that religion. Take me for example, I no longer go to mass and don't even call myself catholic but would never ever vote for the DUP or any unionist party.

Nodin

Strictly speaking, theres no Jewish race as such
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/beingjewish.htm

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Strictly speaking, theres no Jewish race as such

Strictly speak, yes there is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Race

Le King

What do Jews have to do with Sinn Fein being the largest political party in the upper 6?

dlofnep

Osu wrote: »

What do Jews have to do with Sinn Fein being the largest political party in the upper 6?

This thread went off-topic about 30 pages ago - I wouldn't worry too much about it. I think we can call a conclusion to it.

Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation.

getz

Rebelheart wrote: »

Give over. You have done nothing but attack Ireland, the idea of Irish sovereignty and any campaigns by the native Irish to remove your state's rule over us. Unlike most other people you haven't the basic decency to reference your nonsense. You quote the hilariously named "Reform Movement" as your most academic source and always refuse to concede you lied when it is shown, the most recent being your absurd claim that there are 600,000 Irish-born people in the 26 counties who hold British passports.

The sole requirement your claims must have for them to be yours is that they portray the Irish who fought for freedom from your British state in a negative light. Historical truth has never, ever been the foundation of your posts. Your thoughts and your writing here come straight from the cesspit of the undereducated, underclass British nationalist tabloid-reading background from which you come.

the british embassy records that they renewed 70,000 british passports every year to people living in ireland,as the passport lasts 10 years,work it out for yourself,as far as my education is concerned yes i did leave school at 15,spent 10 years in the merchant navy,then worked for a international paint manufacturing company,got my degree as a paint chemist,became the QC manager.retired at the age of 50 with a pension,in sport i hold dan grades in three different styles of karate,and and high grades in both judo and akido,i can speak in two languages,english,and japanese[with a tokyo accent] and as my wife of 40 odd years is a native spanish speaker i can also converse in that, so you are correct,i must be a idiot,i have a great love of ireland and its people ,i spend at least one month a year in wicklow,,i just dont like republican [live in the passed ]scum,by the way i am now 70 years old.

gerajella

Nodin wrote: »

Strictly speaking, theres no Jewish race as such
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/beingjewish.htm

But there is by defult since the criteria for being accepted as Jewish is your maternal line rather than paternal. so there is a made up race.

SlabMurphy

Well I'm not an out and out supporter of SF but if their's no better left/republican candidate on the ballot paper I'll give them me vote. But still, the unionists and born again unionists on the forum are obviously very upset that SF are doing so well, no one deserves it better

LordSutch

dlofnep wrote: »

Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation.

Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

That was dealt with earlier in the thread. I suggest reading it through.

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

Actually they do. It might serve you well to actually read the thread.

LordSutch

The author of post# 507 stated that "Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". and I have quite rightly replied that those (nationalists) do not have any representation in Westminster! maybe he hasn't read the thread right through ?

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

The author of post# 507 stated that "Once again - I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". and I have quite rightly replied that those (nationalists) do not have any representation in Westminster! maybe he hasn't read the thread right through ?

They don't require representation within Westminster to have representation. This has been covered. I'm not going to go around in circles on it.

If you believe that a 5-seat nationalist party can defend the interests of their constituents in a 600 seat unionist house, then by all means - you can attempt to defend that position. However - the nationalist community is represented by Sinn Féin in Stormont where they continue to devolve/transfer authority, and through direct talks with the British Government, where they actually have power to instill change, instead of becoming a small number within the confines of Westminster.

So in summary.

• Sinn Féin does not have a mandate to take their seats.
• Sinn Féin can accomplish more through direct talks.
• Sinn Féin continues to devolve power at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete.
• Westminster does not serve or progress the interests of the nationalist community.

LordSutch

Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster, Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster

Where did I say that they were represented in Westminster?

Camelot wrote: »

Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!

Yawn.

LordSutch

dlofnep wrote: »

Where did I say that they were represented in Westminster?

I said that nationalists who voted Sinn Fein were NOT represented in Westminster.

dlofnep wrote: »

Yawn.

And condescend if you wish :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

I said that nationalists were NOT represented in Westminster.

And I never said they were. I said that they are represented - of which I have already explained how they are represented. You're avoided taking this onboard, and continued to paddle on around the topic of Westminster seats.

Camelot wrote: »

And condescend if you wish :rolleyes:

That's cute - Accusations of being condescending, while using the rolling-eyes icon in the same sentence. I wasn't being condescending - I'm unenthusiastic to debate around the same old points which I have already addressed clearly and concisely on a number of occasions.

owenc

Camelot wrote: »

Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters) . . .

agreed they are just voting for their side and are not voting for any other party its so bloody obvious!!

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

agreed they are just voting for their side and are not voting for any other party its so bloody obvious!!

Yeah, how dare they. Silly republicans voting for republican parties. How absurd!

That would never happen with a unionist party.

sceptre

I've deleted the off-topic side-discussion on the Ulster Covenant as even by the standard of off-topickness that often runs inside threads on Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein and the price of peas in Sainsburys, that took my very last chocolate rich tea biscuit. The two of you who responded are just as culpable.

Please learn the difference between on- and off-topic both as an initiator and a responder (hint: responders are just as bad), it would help me greatly. As I pointed out on the other Northern Ireland thread as well as others recently, if it's nothing to do with the thread title, you're probably off-topic. Thanking you for future remembrance.

/mod

karma_

Wasn't this all discussed at length earlier in the thread, by the same poster even?

have we come full circle?

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

They don't require representation within Westminster to have representation. This has been covered. I'm not going to go around in circles on it.

If you believe that a 5-seat nationalist party can defend the interests of their constituents in a 600 seat unionist house, then by all means - you can attempt to defend that position. However - the nationalist community is represented by Sinn Féin in Stormont where they continue to devolve/transfer authority, and through direct talks with the British Government, where they actually have power to instill change, instead of becoming a small number within the confines of Westminster.

So in summary.

• Sinn Féin does not have a mandate to take their seats.
• Sinn Féin can accomplish more through direct talks.
• Sinn Féin continues to devolve power at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete.
• Westminster does not serve or progress the interests of the nationalist community.

So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

Yeah, how dare they. Silly republicans voting for republican parties. How absurd!

That would never happen with a unionist party.

i said they :P

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

To demonstrate that they can receive the votes, and show Britain that there is a mandate for nationalists.

anymore wrote: »

Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?

You could say that if it helps you sleep at night. I see Sinn Féin's involvement in Stormont as a positive role, to allow them to represent the nationalist community - and have at least a modicum of say in relation to how internal affairs are run - devolving powers at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete. I don't see it as anything beyond that. I'm sure you could seek to find whatever you wanted out of any scenario to suit your views. Food for thought.

karma_

anymore wrote: »

So if it is irrelevant, then why do SF stand for election for Westminister ?

Also, could it be said, now that Mc|Guinness & CO are her majesty's Minister's in Government in Northern Ireland, that Sinn Fein are now part of the Colonial Government of one of Her Majesty's few remaining Colonies ?

As much as you may not like the fact, you have to accept that a large portion of the population voted for SF, regardless of the fact the take or don't take their seats in Westminister. At the very least give the voters of NI the credit that they understand that to be the case but they STILL voted 5 SF candidates in.

I'm not a republican, hell I don't even vote anymore, but I accept teh fact that Nationalists now vote overwhelmingly for SF and protestants for the DUP.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

i said they :P

In fairness - there are options on both sides. Why wouldn't they vote for someone that represents their interests, out of curiosity? It would seem absurd to vote for a party that does not represent your views.

anymore

dlofnep wrote: »

To demonstrate that they can receive the votes, and show Britain that there is a mandate for nationalists.



You could say that if it helps you sleep at night. I see Sinn Féin's involvement in Stormont as a positive role, to allow them to represent the nationalist community - and have at least a modicum of say in relation to how internal affairs are run - devolving powers at a local level, rendering Westminster obsolete. I don't see it as anything beyond that. I'm sure you could seek to find whatever you wanted out of any scenario to suit your views. Food for thought.

Of course they will also be drawing the salaies and pensions and expenses ! Burn everything except her coal......and salaries and pensions !

Of course that mandate is shared with the SDLP is it not ?

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

In fairness - there are options on both sides. Why wouldn't they vote for someone that represents their interests, out of curiosity? It would seem absurd to vote for a party that does not represent your views.

thats the way it is in ni they vote for their side, its the typical thing to do. :rolleyes:

anymore

karma_ wrote: »

As much as you may not like the fact, you have to accept that a large portion of the population voted for SF, regardless of the fact the take or don't take their seats in Westminister. At the very least give the voters of NI the credit that they understand that to be the case but they STILL voted 5 SF candidates in.

I'm not a republican, hell I don't even vote anymore, but I accept teh fact that Nationalists now vote overwhelmingly for SF and protestants for the DUP.

It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !
The reality shows that even many Nationalists wouldnt opt to join the south if they had the opportunity -- particularily now i suppose.

dlofnep

anymore wrote: »

[irrelevant claptrap]

Of course that mandate is shared with the SDLP is it not ?

In some areas yes, in others no.

SlabMurphy

anymore wrote: »

It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !
The reality shows that even many Nationalists wouldnt opt to join the south if they had the opportunity -- particularily now i suppose.

So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?

anymore

SlabMurphy wrote: »

So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?

Have you read what i said ?

owenc

SlabMurphy wrote: »

So your saying that " many Nationalists " are actually unionists :rolleyes::). Well if that's the case - why don't they vote unionist ?

and how do you know who votes for what?

karma_

owenc wrote: »

and how do you know who votes for what?

I think he's going by the rule of thumb that dictates Nationalists vote for Nationalist parties whereas Unionists vote for Unionist ones.

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

Yes yes yes, I have read all that in earlier posts :rolleyes: but my point still remains that nationalists who voted for SF in the recent UK elections are not represented in Westminster, Why? because SF refuse to take their seats their, hence Northern Nationalists have NO representation at the heart of Government (where the money is)!

That was gone in to earlier. In detail.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

That was gone in to earlier. In detail.

Indeed it was, but poster #507 stated that "I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". so I then replied for his benefit (post #511) that "Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters)" . . .

And it continues . . . :rolleyes:

Nodin

Camelot wrote: »

Indeed it was, but poster #507 stated that "I'm happy that Sinn Féin has made such great progress, and that nationalists have strong representation". so I then replied for his benefit (post #511) that "Sadly, those Nationalists who voted SF have zero representation (where it matters)" . . .

And it continues . . . :rolleyes:

If you wish to disagree with what was earlier stated on the matter, then quote the posts. Otherwise I'll presume this is some attempt to get the last word in.

ardmacha

It doesnt really matter that much to me who they vote for !

Lloyd George would approve, he didn't care who the people of Fermanagh/South Tyrone voted for either.

sceptre

ardmacha wrote: »

Lloyd George would approve, he didn't care who the people of Fermanagh/South Tyrone voted for either.

Given that all the nationalist/republican/SF/whatever-shade-of-green candidates elected in 1918 in Fermanagh and Tyrone except for Sean O'Mahony were also elected at the same time in other constituencies in what later became the Irish Free State/26 counties/whatever-yer-having-yerself he had good reason to not care but that probably wasn't your point and mine isn't intended to go off-topic...:)

anymore

sceptre wrote: »

Given that all the nationalist/republican/SF/whatever-shade-of-green candidates elected in 1918 in Fermanagh and Tyrone except for Sean O'Mahony were also elected at the same time in other constituencies in what later became the Irish Free State/26 counties/whatever-yer-having-yerself he had good reason to not care but that probably wasn't your point and mine isn't intended to go off-topic...:)

This might also be the time to refer to Churchhill's reference to the dreary steeples of Fermanagh :
February 16, 1922
"The whole map of Europe has been changed ... but as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again."

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

If you wish to disagree with what was earlier stated on the matter, then quote the posts. Otherwise I'll presume this is some attempt to get the last word in.

Je**s, I have already quoted the post numbers, I'm outa this thread, bye.

SlabMurphy

anymore wrote: »

This might also be the time to refer to Churchhill's reference to the dreary steeples of Fermanagh :
February 16, 1922
"The whole map of Europe has been changed ... but as the deluge subsides and the waters fall short we see the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone emerging once again."

Well the fat windbag Churchill would know as he was one the main architects of the sectarian six county state. Typically British, engineer the injustice and thuggery - and then step back and blame the natives.

Can'tseeme

TommyT wrote: »

Like they did last tiime?
Politics in the South are slightly different to the North. The North is just a sectarian headcount, as witnessed in Fermanagh, South Tyrone. What policies did anyone standing in the North have? What were they going to do to bring jobs during the economic downturn? etc etc etc? The North is simply an Orange and Green scrap and that is why Sinn Fein and the DUP are doing so well.
Anything else is just bull****.

Those politicians have feck all influence at Westminster and therefore Westminster elections are becoming more and more irrelevant to the people of the north. We get our block grant and told to get on with it. The local assembly elections is where normal politics has a chance to be played.

anymore

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Well the fat windbag Churchill would know as he was one the main architects of the sectarian six county state. Typically British, engineer the injustice and thuggery - and then step back and blame the natives.

Could I reccomend an Irish windbag, if you are not happy reading the words of an english windbag - and no I dont mean Gerry Adams :
" Well, what a surprise. It never is. All republican violence in Ireland has failed in its aims. No one in 1916 wanted what we have today: a divided Anglophone island, with British rule in the North being implemented by one set of heirs to the Rising and limited self-government being implemented in Dublin by another set of heirs, within the most capitalist society in Europe "

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-all-republican-violence-has-failed-in-its-aims-no-one-in-1916-wanted-what-we-have-today-2184700.html

Can'tseeme

Jaap wrote: »

I know...Ruane getting rid of the 11 plus and replacing it with...what??? She hasn't a clue!!
Glad Margaret Richie defeated her!!!

Any academic on education that I've heard has backed Ruane on the reforms she's trying to make. She has obviously come up against tremendous opposition, funny it's the elitist Grammar schools, right wing Unionism, right wing press and the anti-SF Irish News!

She's in the process of doing away with an unfair, outdated elitist system to bring about a better form in which school kids move from Primary to Post Primary, were between the ages of 11 to 14 they plan a sensible development of which educational path the pupil would be suited to take. It works in other countries, who have shown a high standard of education to flourish. It's been a difficult battle for her but imo, the tide has started to turn.

SlabMurphy

anymore wrote: »

Could I reccomend an Irish windbag, if you are not happy reading the words of an english windbag - and no I dont mean Gerry Adams :
" Well, what a surprise. It never is. All republican violence in Ireland has failed in its aims. No one in 1916 wanted what we have today: a divided Anglophone island, with British rule in the North being implemented by one set of heirs to the Rising and limited self-government being implemented in Dublin by another set of heirs, within the most capitalist society in Europe "

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-all-republican-violence-has-failed-in-its-aims-no-one-in-1916-wanted-what-we-have-today-2184700.html

" Could I reccomend an Irish windbag, " - the author of the article is Kevin Myers who is from Leicester, England

anymore

Can'tseeme wrote: »

Those politicians have feck all influence at Westminster and therefore Westminster elections are becoming more and more irrelevant to the people of the north. We get our block grant and told to get on with it. The local assembly elections is where normal politics has a chance to be played.

Afraid you have it the wrong way around. Westmintser is a normal parliamentary assembly which has accounability. Stormont is merely the assembly which dispenses the charity that Wstminster votes to keep the basketcase that is Northern Ireland going. Lets call it charity rather than a blockgrant. € 6 billion a year to indulge the illusions that Northern ireland politicians have that they are really running Northern ireland.

anymore

SlabMurphy wrote: »

" Could I reccomend an Irish windbag, " - the author of the article is Kevin Myers who is from Leicester, England

Yes like millions of irish people, Kevin Myers was born in the UK.Remember the phrase ' the irish diaspora' ?

Can'tseeme

anymore wrote: »

Afraid you have it the wrong way around. Westmintser is a normal parliamentary assembly which has accounability. Stormont is merely the assembly which dispenses the charity that Wstminster votes to keep the basketcase that is Northern Ireland going. Lets call it charity rather than a blockgrant. € 6 billion a year to indulge the illusions that Northern ireland politicians have that they are really running Northern ireland.

Yes, that may be true. Doesn't change the fact that N Ireland's MP's have feck all irrelevance in it. You only have to look at the down turn in voting in the north of the last Westminster election to see that few people give a feck to take part in it!

and yes the north is a basketcase but it's one that London is going to have to look after for the forseeable future.