SF now the largest political party in the north.

snow ghost

The SDLP come out looking very bad in this, whether you support the shinners or hate them you have to admire their tactics - they are good.

Whether that transpires to down here in the south is a different matter - they may gain a slight uplift in the next election because of anger at FF, but they wont make any major gains - politics here are too tribal for that.

FlutterinBantam

owenc wrote: »

Aye everyone here hates her because she is trying to make the schools like down south... shes a nightmare. plus shes from sf and they will try and make everything into irish!! oh god.

Ruane got tonked?:D

Nice one, hope she wasn't suffering from delayed jet lag after 21 trips to Colombia to free the birdwatchers.


Some people up there have some sense it would appear.

AAahhh I think I'll crack open a bottle of beer.

Cheers.

old hippy

danbohan wrote: »

you might want change the date !, before the west brits think its real

I really do dislike that term, insulting on so many levels to so many people. Still, well done to SF - most impressive.

TommyT

snow ghost wrote: »

The SDLP come out looking very bad in this, whether you support the shinners or hate them you have to admire their tactics - they are good.

Sinn Fein are excellent at vote management and getting their voters to come out. But as a political party they offer their voters very little, especially in a general election.
Other than Fermanagh South Tyrone I think the SDLP have done alright. They have held their 3 seats and have probably made South Belfast a safe seat.

TommyT

paky wrote: »

Have you anything to contribute to this thread?

Do you have anything other than pathetic one line replies?

dermothickey

Long May Peace reign

snow ghost

TommyT wrote: »

Sinn Fein are excellent at vote management and getting their voters to come out. But as a political party they offer their voters very little, especially in a general election.
Other than Fermanagh South Tyrone I think the SDLP have done alright. They have held their 3 seats and have probably made South Belfast a safe seat.

Agree about them being excellent at vote management, but can't agree with them as a political party offering their voters little... I think we have to leave that to the objective opinion of the electorate in N.I. and their voters make up the largest group, so we can assume they obviously do offer them something substantial.

The SDLP come out the losers - on many levels - in Fermanagh South Tyrone. They actually played exactly into the shinners hands. As an outside observer, I think the SDLP are a spent force and lack any real leadership.

Brussels Sprout

Congratulations to Sinn Fein. It takes some political machine to convince people that it is in their best interests to vote for somebody who isn't actually going to represent them in parliament.

I was delighted to see the Alliance Party win a seat. Hopefully in the future the people of N.I. will be represented by more non-sectarian parties.

Happy Monday

I'm hoping SF call a border poll now in NI.
They would soon see how likely a United Ireland is by 2016.
Would be 65-35 in favour of remaining in the UK.
And 35% of Catholics would vote in favour of the United Kingdom.
But, alas, these are the reasons why SF won't call a border poll.

ardmacha

The SDLP come out the losers - on many levels - in Fermanagh South Tyrone. They actually played exactly into the shinners hands. As an outside observer, I think the SDLP are a spent force and lack any real leadership.

The SDLP will be happy enough. They made their point in FST, didn't campaign much and the seat was not lost to a unionist. Meanwhile they consolidated South Belfast and kept SF at bay in Derry and South Down.

I'm hoping SF call a border poll now in NI.
They would soon see how likely a United Ireland is by 2016.

There's no hurry, after almost 900 years another decade or so will not be a major problem.

dlofnep

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Congratulations to Sinn Fein. It takes some political machine to convince people that it is in their best interests to vote for somebody who isn't actually going to represent them in parliament.

Ah yes, the irrelevant abstentionist line.

Despite not taking their seats in Westminster, they have accomplished far more than the SDLP (who do take their seats). Go figure.

Sinn Féin is an Irish party, and it's mandate from it's voters is to remain as such. If they were worried about the importance of SF being in Westminster, they would not have voted for them. There is clearly little to no benefit of SF taking seats in Westminster. It will cost them votes, at the expense of being able to drive change in the north.

Remember, Sinn Féin has taken an orange state to a place where nationalist voices now have a platform to be heard. Devolution didn't require a seat in Westminster. It required hard work on behalf on SF.

So drop it - that line didn't work for the SDLP and it isn't going to work for you.

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

A great day for SF indeed, but it's not necessarily a great day for the other parties & the 'Non Shinners' people who live in Fermanagh & South Tyrone, but who will continue to have NO VOICE at the heart of Government!

Just like nationalists had no voice for decades, right? Chicken's coming home to roost. Besides, SF will represent all constituents to the best of their ability. Especially Michelle Gildernew who is a very hard and dedicated worker.

Don't worry - unionists already have a voice, on account of being unionists within the union.

sitstill

I've never really understood this. If Sinn Fein MPs don't take their seats in Westminster, then how do they properly represent their constituents? Do they take part in votes in the Commons?

Happy Monday

ardmacha wrote: »

There's no hurry, after almost 900 years another decade or so will not be a major problem.

There was a big hurry during the troubles - brits out - do you remember?
Over the next 10 years the British government will have pumped another GBP50bn into NI to keep the economy afloat - and this is why those %s won't be changing much. The RoI could go the same way as Greece - hardly an inviting menu for the good people of Norn Iron who know which side their bread is buttered on.

ardmacha

Over the next 10 years the British government will have pumped another GBP50bn into NI to keep the economy afloat

Good. They should be required to leave the place in good order.

The RoI could go the same way as Greece

It could, but so could the UK. The ROI has grown faster than the UK in every decade since 1960, this decade won't be any different.

Happy Monday

dlofnep wrote: »

Devolution didn't require a seat in Westminster. It required hard work on behalf on SF.

Devolution was delayed for 25 years by the IRA's campaign of violence.
Was on the table in 1973 but this was regarded by republicans as a sell out of their ideals and only acceptable to west brits. Until of course they accepeted decades later and it became an historic breakthrough for peace when they knew that no United Ireland was forthcoming.

Happy Monday

ardmacha wrote: »

Good. They should be required to leave the place in good order. It could, but so could the UK. The ROI has grown faster than the UK in every decade since 1960, this decade won't be any different.

But don't comment on the third of Catholics who support the union.
If the Irish economy is on a par with the UK's it begs the question of why some many RoI Irish people - 800,000 nationals - live across the water.
Should they not be coming here?

dlofnep

sitstill wrote: »

I've never really understood this. If Sinn Fein MPs don't take their seats in Westminster, then how do they properly represent their constituents? Do they take part in votes in the Commons?

How was devolution of policing & justice delivered?

dermothickey

Just my two cents here...remember when talking about Northern Irelands politics and history just remember it's peoples lives, and the prospects of an everlasting peace. No-one particularly wants to remember history they just want to get on with their lives. The current agreement in place can last when all major political parties can sit down and discuss the future. Fair play to Sinn Fein for the past 10/12 years working for peace and helping to bring it about. This in my opinion is the reason of their popularity. Not the colour of their flag but their commitment to a fair and equal society for All. The proof is in the results.

sitstill

dlofnep wrote: »

How was devolution of policing & justice delivered?

I don't know.

ardmacha

But don't comment on the third of Catholics who support the union.

At present 99% of people in Ireland support the Union as the conditions to end it set out in the GFA do not presently exist. There isn't one third of NI Catholics who support the Union in the sense of not wanting arrangements to be made to end it. I expect some do, but more Protestants support a United Ireland. The idea that there is large number of nationalist voters who want the Union or that a nationalist majority can exist for long period without that leading to the end of the Union is nonsense, but if it gives you some hope then cling to that by all means.

DoireNod

Happy Monday wrote: »

But don't comment on the third of Catholics who support the union.

Wow, you are telling me that a third of the Catholic population are unionist? :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

Happy Monday wrote: »

I'm hoping SF call a border poll now in NI.
They would soon see how likely a United Ireland is by 2016.
Would be 65-35 in favour of remaining in the UK.
And 35% of Catholics would vote in favour of the United Kingdom.
But, alas, these are the reasons why SF won't call a border poll.

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

dermothickey

ardmacha wrote: »

At present 99% of people in Ireland support the Union as the conditions to end it set out in the GFA do not presently exist. There isn't one third of NI Catholics who support the Union in the sense of not wanting arrangements to be made to end it. I expect some do, but more Protestants support a United Ireland. The idea that there is large number of nationalist voters who want the Union or that a nationalist majority can exist for long period without that leading to the end of the Union is nonsense, but if it gives you some hope then cling to that by all means.

Last time I checked most people in Ireland support the republic.."why" Im looking at a box of cigs here with a Harp on it, says something about Irish excise duty on it.

dlofnep

sitstill wrote: »

I don't know.

it was delivered by Sinn Féin without ever taking a seat in Westminster. Sinn Féin are able to represent their constituents just fine. The more they push for more devolved power, the more they will be able to do for them.

Having 5 seats in Westminster will do nothing, especially with a Tory lead Government. People seem to mis-represent the importance of taking a seat in Westminster for nationalists. It is of no importance to them, because they can't initiate change from Westminster - but they can initiate change at a local level as they continue to push for devolved powers.

Our man in Havana

There are catholics that are also unionists. Something that SF have to deal with.
These catholics don't want a united ireland.

Our man in Havana

dermothickey wrote: »

Last time I checked most people in Ireland support the republic.."why" Im looking at a box of cigs here with a Harp on it, says something about Irish excise duty on it.

I certainly don't, so you are wrong there. :pac:

KeithAFC

Gerry Kelly should run the gun party in memory of the police officer he shot in the head in cold blood.

dlofnep

Bond-007 wrote: »

There are catholics that are also unionists. Something that SF have to deal with.
These catholics don't want a united ireland.

There are protestants who are nationalists. So what?

dermothickey

KeithAFC wrote: »

Gerry Kelly should run the gun party in memory of the police officer he shot in the head in cold blood.

Gerry Kelly served his time...letting go of the past is very important for ALL sides of the political spectrum in NI. This has led to the current situation. thankfully. To start listing out past grievances is an excuse which isn't listened to anymore.

Our man in Havana

dlofnep wrote: »

There are protestants who are nationalists. So what?

Just pointing out that Catholics are not universally nationalists as some people would like to think.

amacachi

dlofnep wrote: »

it was delivered by Sinn Féin without ever taking a seat in Westminster. Sinn Féin are able to represent their constituents just fine. The more they push for more devolved power, the more they will be able to do for them.

Having 5 seats in Westminster will do nothing, especially with a Tory lead Government. People seem to mis-represent the importance of taking a seat in Westminster for nationalists. It is of no importance to them, because they can't initiate change from Westminster - but they can initiate change at a local level as they continue to push for devolved powers.

It was a Northern Irish issue though, I was under the impression it only came through negotiations in NI and had basically nothing to do with the House of Commons.

Also, come the next assembly elections the DUP will most likely be on top again, Unionists didn't really bother getting out to vote in a lot of constituencies this year.

dlofnep

Bond-007 wrote: »

Just pointing out that Catholics are not universally nationalists as some people would like to think.

Nor are Protestants universally unionist. Religion is irrelevant. Nobody is claiming all catholics are nationalist or that all protestants are unionist. Infact, some of the greatest republicans in the history of Ireland have been protestant.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

it was delivered by Sinn Féin without ever taking a seat in Westminster. Sinn Féin are able to represent their constituents just fine. The more they push for more devolved power, the more they will be able to do for them.

Having 5 seats in Westminster will do nothing, especially with a Tory lead Government. People seem to mis-represent the importance of taking a seat in Westminster for nationalists. It is of no importance to them, because they can't initiate change from Westminster - but they can initiate change at a local level as they continue to push for devolved powers.

Total rubbish and deluded rhetoric.

To achieve anything one has to be in the seat of power and get involved.

The seat of power is Westminster and they are cheating their supporters and deluding themselves if they, and their bagmen think that by refusing to take part, they further the cause of the people who voted for them.

The politics of division and kerbpainting perhaps but as far as achieving something tangible...nada.

dlofnep

amacachi wrote: »

It was a Northern Irish issue though, I was under the impression it only came through negotiations in NI and had basically nothing to do with the House of Commons.

It was delivered exactly because Sinn Féin negotiated it outside of Westminster. Sinn Féin would not have any power in, nor do they have a mandate to be in Westminster.

amacachi wrote: »

Also, come the next assembly elections the DUP will most likely be on top again, Unionists didn't really bother getting out to vote in a lot of constituencies this year.

I'm not sure about that. Sinn Féin have increased their vote with every election for the past 2 decades. Sinn Féin will remain on top.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

To achieve anything one has to be in the seat of power and get involved.

Not when you hold 5 seats, as a nationalist party out of a house which has 100's of seats. You do not have the political standing to initiate anything.

You say one has to be in a seat of power - but Sinn Féin have accomplished enough without ever having taking their seat. They don't need to take their seat, because the negotiate directly. This is the only way nationalists will ever have true representation.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The seat of power is Westminster and they are cheating their supporters and deluding themselves if they, and their bagmen think that by refusing to take part, they further the cause of the people who voted for them.

No, they are not cheating their supporters. Their supporters understand very clear their policy on abstentionism, and vote knowing so. If it was an issue, they would vote for the SDLP. It's obviously a non-issue, because the SDLP are slipping into obscurity, and as much as it hurts you to accept - Sinn Féin are now the largest party in the north. A giant-step from the gerrymandered vote that once existed.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

Not when you hold 5 seats, as a nationalist party out of a house which has 100's of seats. You do not have the political standing to initiate anything.

You say one has to be in a seat of power - but Sinn Féin have accomplished enough without ever having taking their seat. They don't need to take their seat, because the negotiate directly. This is the only way nationalists will ever have true representation.



No, they are not cheating their supporters. Their supporters understand very clear their policy on abstentionism, and vote knowing so. If it was an issue, they would vote for the SDLP. It's obviously a non-issue, because the SDLP are slipping into obscurity, and as much as it hurts you to accept - Sinn Féin are now the largest party in the north. A giant-step from the gerrymandered vote that once existed.

The time is at hand when the Shinners and their bagmen will have to do something off their own bat.

Anyone with a modicum of understanding will realise that the UK Govt. will not treat these people differently once normality has been achieved.

Painting oneself into a corner is a strategy of limited effectiveness and I would suggest that the UK Govt. will change their approach to the Shinners fairly rapido.


If they have any sense.

karma_

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The time is at hand when the Shinners and their bagmen will have to do something off their own bat.

Anyone with a modicum of understanding will realise that the UK Govt. will not treat these people differently once normality has been achieved.

Painting oneself into a corner is a strategy of limited effectiveness and I would suggest that the UK Govt. will change their approach to the Shinners fairly rapido.


If they have any sense.

Theres been a lot of rubbish posted in this thread. Most of it by you.

FlutterinBantam

I gather by that reply you are not prepared to back up your stance?

karma_

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I gather by that reply you are not prepared to back up your stance?

I don't recall posting anything about 'my' stance.

FlutterinBantam

karma_ wrote: »

I don't recall posting anything about 'my' stance.

can I refer you to post #89?

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The time is at hand when the Shinners and their bagmen will have to do something off their own bat.

SF politicians have been working hard for their constituents for decades. You wouldn't know anything about it. There's a reason they are the largest party in the north, and it certainly isn't for the views you'd like them to be.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Anyone with a modicum of understanding will realise that the UK Govt. will not treat these people differently once normality has been achieved.

It's not about treating anyone differently. It's about the power that SF can exert in Westminster (with at 5 seats is nothing), and also to do with the fact that there is no mandate for them to enter Westminster. You seem to have a severe problem with understanding that the electorate do not want them to take their seats, and want them to devolve more power locally.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Painting oneself into a corner is a strategy of limited effectiveness and I would suggest that the UK Govt. will change their approach to the Shinners fairly rapido.

Given the fact that they are engaged in dozens of cross-community projects - I'm not sure how that constitutes as painting themselves into one corner. They are there to represent their constituents, which are nationalist and wish to remove British rule from Ireland. This is very clear.

Stabshauptmann

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's none of your business.



For reasons that you would not be prepared to understand.

lol. Is there a medal going for biggest cop out to a question ever?

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Total rubbish and deluded rhetoric.

To achieve anything one has to be in the seat of power and get involved.

The seat of power is Westminster and they are cheating their supporters and deluding themselves if they, and their bagmen think that by refusing to take part, they further the cause of the people who voted for them..

NI is run by a devolved Government now, isn't it? PSF take their seats in that, I believe.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

......kerbpainting.......

Could we at least aim for originality now and again?

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Anyone with a modicum of understanding will realise that the UK Govt. will not treat these people differently once normality has been achieved.

Would you care to explain that a bit, please?

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

NI is run by a devolved Government now, isn't it? PSF take their seats in that, I believe.



Could we at least aim for originality now and again?



Would you care to explain that a bit, please?

Where does the money come from?


Certainly,as soon as things settle down in NI the UK Govt will not deal with these individuals and their bagmen with the approprium and leverage as when they were bombing the place to bits and shooting and murdering the forces of law and order.

That should be fairly obvious i would have thought.

danbohan

Happy Monday wrote: »

But don't comment on the third of Catholics who support the union.
If the Irish economy is on a par with the UK's it begs the question of why some many RoI Irish people - 800,000 nationals - live across the water.
Should they not be coming here?

why are 113.000 uk nationals living here ?, census 2006, they make up much greater % than irish in uk , you have no evidence that a third of catholics support the union , in fact you your post is just waffle

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Where does the money come from?
.

NI is given a budget to Govern itself with. PSF members meet with the British over such matters as part of their job as representatives in the NI Assembly.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Certainly,as soon as things settle down in NI the UK Govt will not deal with these individuals and their bagmen with the approprium and leverage as when they were bombing the place to bits and shooting and murdering the forces of law and order.

That should be fairly obvious i would have thought.

They are elected representatives in the NI assembly and the largest nationalist party. The British have no reason not to meet with them. As theres been a ceasefire and subsequent cessation theres certainly no change evident in that pattern now that the shooting is long over.

You aren't suggesting the British should discriminate against the largest party of a certain community, are you?

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

NI is given a budget to Govern itself with. PSF members meet with the British over such matters as part of their job as representatives in the NI Assembly.



They are elected representatives in the NI assembly and the largest nationalist party. The British have no reason not to meet with them. As theres been a ceasefire and subsequent cessation theres certainly no change evident in that pattern now that the shooting is long over.

You aren't suggesting the British should discriminate against the largest party of a certain community, are you?

Hmmm... Mr Cameron might take a different view.

You are surely not suggesting that the tail should wag the dog are you?;)

Liam Byrne

ardmacha wrote: »

At present 99% of people in Ireland support the Union as the conditions to end it set out in the GFA do not presently exist.

Bear in mind that some of these "conditions" include SF turning their back on criminal activity, and they have not 100% done that given their stated opinions regarding some recent criminal activities.

These things work both ways.

We had to stomach the release of violent thugs and bomber from both "sides" as a result of the GFA, and we still voted for it in the "hope" that it would stop the madness and violence and killing of ALL innocent people.

pfy2k

Quick build a Berlin style wall now, to contain the 16th Century FundaMENTALists!:eek: