SF now the largest political party in the north.

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Hmmm... Mr Cameron might take a different view.

So you're suggesting that Cameron might undo nearly 20 years of progress and initiate a campaign of discrimination against one section of the community? Bit apocalyptic there. Have you any evidence for this?

You started out complaining about PSF not taking their seats. When it was pointed out to you they take their seats in the Government of NI, you start implying the British will refuse (or is it should refuse?) to meet with them, despite no evidence to support that assertion, and a very large legal agreement to the contrary. I really can't understand what your underlying point is.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

You are surely not suggesting that the tail should wag the dog are you?;)

I've no idea what that statement has to do with anything. There's a series of institutions in NI that the British have - along with everyone else - signed off on.

FlutterinBantam

pfy2k wrote: »

Quick build a Berlin style wall now, to contain the 16th Century FundaMENTALists!:eek:

heh heh... unfortunately the hoors have access to the World Wide Web:D

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

So you're suggesting that Cameron might undo nearly 20 years of progress and initiate a campaign of discrimination against one section of the community? Bit apocalyptic there. Have you any evidence for this?

You started out complaining about PSF not taking their seats. When it was pointed out to you they take their seats in the Government of NI, you start implying the British will refuse (or is it should refuse?) to meet with them, despite no evidence to support that assertion, and a very large legal agreement to the contrary. I really can't understand what your underlying point is.



I've no idea what that statement has to do with anything. There's a series of institutions in NI that the British have - along with everyone else - signed off on.

I'm not complaining about anything

I stated The Shinners won't take their seats in Westminster.

Is that not fact.?

Mrs Thatcher a lady of substance, let the punters who tried to exert pressure, die in their own faeces.

The wheel is turning to a similar outlook.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I stated The Shinners won't take their seats in Westminster.

Is that not fact.?

It is, and rightfully so. Which is why they are the largest party in the north. Great, isn't it?

FlutterinBantam

As Joe Pesci almost said


Great?. How is it great?

pfy2k

I'd love to see the Nordies, live under the Dublin Government for a month. They would be scrambling for the Westminster Government by the end of the month. When they realized what they had lost and received, aka VRT and crazy road tax on their lovely affordable cars and 4x4's, and excellent roads, Carbon tax. Not to talk about the decent public services they take for granted. etc.... need I go on! Be very careful for what you wish for my Northern cousins!

FlutterinBantam

They will ask you to back all that up in the next post:D

pfy2k

Come on down the price is right! Find out for yourself! lol:D Why does most of Leinster shop in Newry and Enniskillen. Unless your an RTE employee or TD. It is very hard to live a comfortable live down here:mad:

Happy Monday

danbohan wrote: »

why are 113.000 uk nationals living here ?, census 2006, they make up much greater % than irish in uk , you have no evidence that a third of catholics support the union , in fact you your post is just waffle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

This link cites the fact that 39% of Catholics wished to remain in the UK based on the Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey 2007.

Rory McIlroy anyone?

Nodin

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I'm not complaining about anything

I stated The Shinners won't take their seats in Westminster.

Is that not fact.?
.

No, you said rather a bit more.

Total rubbish and deluded rhetoric.

To achieve anything one has to be in the seat of power and get involved.

The seat of power is Westminster and they are cheating their supporters and deluding themselves if they, and their bagmen think that by refusing to take part, they further the cause of the people who voted for them.

When it had been explained to you (in detail) that your assumptions are incorrect, you started posting odd comments about the British refusing to meet a democratically elected party. As a result, I don't really see your underlying point.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Mrs Thatcher a lady of substance, let the punters who tried to exert pressure, die in their own faeces..

I'm wondering if that is a red herring, a straw man, or just a large lump of concrete on the rail line. I would, however, advise others to give it a wide berth.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The wheel is turning to a similar outlook.

For the second time, do you have any evidence that a British Government - be it labour or conservative - is planning to discriminate against PSF representatives?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

It is, and rightfully so. Which is why they are the largest party in the north. Great, isn't it?

Yea, just a pity they were terrorists...

LordSutch

dlofnep wrote: »

It is, and rightfully so. Which is why they are the largest party in the north. Great, isn't it?

No.

Happy Monday

KeithAFC wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Response to your analysis above is contained in my link below.
39% of Catholics wishing to remain in the UK. :pac::pac::pac::pac:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

pfy2k

I support the Union and I am a Dubliner!:mad: Just like Edward Carson!;)

TommyT

Happy Monday wrote: »

I'm hoping SF call a border poll now in NI.
They would soon see how likely a United Ireland is by 2016.
Would be 65-35 in favour of remaining in the UK.
And 35% of Catholics would vote in favour of the United Kingdom.
But, alas, these are the reasons why SF won't call a border poll.

Firstly it is not up to Sinn Fein to call any poll on the issue of the border.
Where exactly do you get your figures to back up your argument for catholics wanting to remain part of the UK?

FlutterinBantam

Nodin wrote: »

No, you said rather a bit more.


When it had been explained to you (in detail) that your assumptions are incorrect, you started posting odd comments about the British refusing to meet a democratically elected party. As a result, I don't really see your underlying point.

My assumptions are not incorrect.

I never said the British would refuse to meet a democratically elected party, I said the influence of that party would dramatically decrease one normality was achieved.




I'm wondering if that is a red herring, a straw man, or just a large lump of concrete on the rail line. I would, however, advise others to give it a wide berth.



For the second time, do you have any evidence that a British Government - be it labour or conservative - is planning to discriminate against PSF representatives?[/QUOTE]


What do you mean by 'discriminate'

Who brought up that red herring.?;)

dlofnep

Camelot wrote: »

No.

Yes it is.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Yes it is.

No it isn't, Shinn Féin are ex-terrorists. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the halls of power.

danbohan

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland

This link cites the fact that 39% of Catholics wished to remain in the UK based on the Northern Ireland Life and Times Survey 2007.

Rory McIlroy anyone?

they must have interviewed Catholics living on shankill road , you better find more accurate sources . not all catholics want a 32 county republic , not all protestants want union with uk , but not 39% on either side , prob more like 3%

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it isn't, Shinn Féin are ex-terrorists. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the halls of power.

Well, you don't get to decide who the electorate can vote for. And unlucky for you, Sinn Féin are now the largest party in the north. Which means that they were doing exactly what the people wanted - engaging in the peace process, devolving power and working on behalf on their constituents.

I know it hurts you to see Sinn Féin become the backbone of politics in the north, but you're just going to have to deal with it. Just like it hurt the Boers when Nelson Mandela became the president of South Africa. They once called him a terrorist too.

Happy Monday

TommyT wrote: »

Firstly it is not up to Sinn Fein to call any poll on the issue of the border.
Where exactly do you get your figures to back up your argument for catholics wanting to remain part of the UK?

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Check out the religious preferences at the end.

TommyT

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Check out the religious preferences at the end.

And this poll is representative of who/what?

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I know it hurts you to see Sinn Féin become the backbone of politics in the north, but you're just going to have to deal with it. Just like it hurt the Boers when Nelson Mandela became the president of South Africa. They once called him a terrorist too.

I'll agree with that.

dlofnep

TommyT wrote: »

And this poll is representative of who/what?

He doesn't know. I contacted them about a year ago to ask what constituencies they polled, and what areas of the constituencies they polled. They didn't have an answer.

Happy Monday

TommyT wrote: »

And this poll is representative of who/what?

You get the poll - then you dismiss them when it reveals results you do not like.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, you don't get to decide who the electorate can vote for. And unlucky for you, Sinn Féin are now the largest party in the north. Which means that they were doing exactly what the people wanted - engaging in the peace process, devolving power and working on behalf on their constituents.

Are they though ? I have a strong suspicion Catholics voted for Sinn Fein on either Sectarian or Nationalist grounds rather then an informed vote on their policies.

dlofnep wrote: »

I know it hurts you to see Sinn Féin become the backbone of politics in the north,

Indeed it does hurt me when ex-terrorists and socialist/nationalists get into power.

dlofnep wrote: »

Just like it hurt the Boers when Nelson Mandela became the president of South Africa. They once called him a terrorist too.

Nelson Mandela is a great man. Don't even dare compare him to Martin McGuinness.

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are they though ? I have a strong suspicion Catholics voted for Sinn Fein on either Sectarian or Nationalist grounds rather then an informed vote on their policies.

What a convenient suspicion! A very uninformed suspicion, but convenient nonetheless.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nelson Mandela is a great man. Don't even dare compare him to Martin McGuinness.

Both engaged in armed struggle against a system that could never afford their people a fair shot. I also think Nelson is a great man, but he was the leader of the Umkhonto we Sizwe which used the exact same tactics as the IRA.

So it is very convenient for you to consider one great, and the other not so much.

TommyT

Happy Monday wrote: »

You get the poll - then you dismiss them when it reveals results you do not like.

If the poll had any credibility you may have a point, but as it stands you are clutching at straws here. It seems like something a child would do for a school project.

DoireNod

Happy Monday wrote: »

http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/Political_Attitudes/NIRELND2.html

Check out the religious preferences at the end.

As I've said before, there are people who would support devolved government with a view to Irish unity, not necessarily to stay within the UK. This isn't accounted for in the poll. That poll is fairly meaningless Happy Monday and it has been circulated on here so many times as if it's some kind of conclusive refutation of prospective Irish unity, which it isn't.

Here are the technical notes:
http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/2008/tech08.pdf

DoireNod

dlofnep wrote: »

So it is very convenient for you to consider one great, and the other not so much.

Convenient? It's downright hypocritical!

irishh_bob

dlofnep wrote: »

Who did you vote for?

Why would it not be a great day for the leading republican party in the north, which endorses the peace process and devolved power for the people not be a great day for the rest of us?

in my mind thier is something worrying about the fact that while peter robinson undoubtabley lost his seat due to the scandal surrounding his and his wifes private affairs ( no pun intended ) , gerry adams vote actually went up despite the fact that he knowingly allowed a paedophile be involved in grass roots party organisation , it seems to me that sinn fein voters can overlook almost anything when it comes to thier representitives

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

What a convenient suspicion! A very uninformed suspicion, but convenient nonetheless.

So you believe there is another reason a far-left/Social Democratic party got into power ?

If you disagree with my suspicion that is fine. But I would like to see a a report on how many Protestant voted for them. I doubt such information would be released however. I could be wrong on that but I doubt it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Both engaged in armed struggle against a system that could never afford their people a fair shot. I also think Nelson is a great man, but he was the leader of the Umkhonto we Sizwe which used the exact same tactics as the IRA.

They are nowhere near the same. Mandela wanted to create a "Rainbow Nation", the exact opposite of Nationalism. Sinn fein want to bring the North into the Rep. Two very different positions.

dlofnep wrote: »

So it is very convenient for you to consider one great, and the other not so much.

Yes, very convenient. Especially since I make a note of not considering Terrorist leaders "great".

ghostdancer

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yea, just a pity they were terrorists...

a bit like FF and FG used to be....

Iwasfrozen

ghostdancer wrote: »

a bit like FF and FG used to be....

That generation of FF and FG are now dead.

The terrorists in Sinn Fein are very much alive and are being voted into power across the border.

P. Breathnach

Stabshauptmann wrote: »

lol. Is there a medal going for biggest cop out to a question ever?

I voluntarily waste a good deal of time reading and posting here, but there is no way that I am prepared to put in the amount of effort involved to explain my reasons for disapproving of Sinn Féin to a Sinn Féin supporter.

[Or is your objection to my refusing to say for whom I have voted?]

owenc

If those people are want a united Ireland that desperately why can't they just move down south so bloody simple... If there was a referndum it should be by the cobstuencies as the Derry one would make us join Ireland even though that is only a small part of the county!

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So you believe there is another reason a far-left/Social Democratic party got into power ?

They got into power because they work hard on behalf of their constituents, worked hard at implementing the peace process and have continued to devolve power to the north. But if it helps you sleep at night to conjure up alternatives, then by all means - go for it. I'm not the thought-police.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If you disagree with my suspicion that is fine. But I would like to see a a report on how many Protestant voted for them. I doubt such information would be released however. I could be wrong on that but I doubt it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They are nowhere near the same. Mandela wanted to create a "Rainbow Nation", the exact opposite of Nationalism. Sinn fein want to bring the North into the Rep. Two very different positions.

What convenient descriptions.

Actually - Sinn Féin wants to unify Ireland. It doesn't want to bring anything into anything. It also wants to integrate unionists into it. Just like Nelson Mandela wanted to integrate the white community into a new South Africa.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, very convenient. Especially since I make a note of not considering Terrorist leaders "great".

Mandela engaged in what is described as terrorist activities. You stated he was great. So yes, it is convenient.

Happy Monday

TommyT wrote: »

If the poll had any credibility you may have a point, but as it stands you are clutching at straws here. It seems like something a child would do for a school project.

Show me any poll showing the vast majority of Catholics who support a UI. I accept that 100% of SF voters would support a UI but there is a significant % of middle class Catholic SDLP voters who wish NI to remain part of the UK - subvention of GBP5bn annually, public sector and NHS are the key reasons for this support. Show me the poll.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

If those people are want a united Ireland that desperately why can't they just move down south so bloody simple... If there was a referndum it should be by the cobstuencies as the Derry one would make us join Ireland even though that is only a small part of the county!

Ah, you've just been introduced to the process known as ethnic cleansing. You might forgive me if I'm being obtuse - but ethnic cleansing is a big no-no in modern society.

owenc

danbohan wrote: »

they must have interviewed Catholics living on shankill road , you better find more accurate sources . not all catholics want a 32 county republic , not all protestants want union with uk , but not 39% on either side , prob more like 3%

You people are so biased you make me angry!? That is true in belfast but not here they don't go on like that here they vote for who they want.. Btw dup is largest it has most seats..

dlofnep

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I voluntarily waste a good deal of time reading and posting here, but there is no way that I am prepared to put in the amount of effort involved to explain my reasons for disapproving of Sinn Féin to a Sinn Féin supporter.

Pardon me for extending an open dialog with you.

I was curious as to whom you see as an alternative? Given that Sinn Féin is firmly engaged in the peace process, is working very hard on behalf of their constituents and working on many cross-community campaigns to ensure stability and create a basis for mutual understanding.

Or can you not see beyond 1996? I'm genuinely curious.

DoireNod

Happy Monday wrote: »

...but there is a significant % of middle class Catholic SDLP voters who wish NI to remain part of the UK - subvention of GBP5bn annually, public sector and NHS are the key reasons for this support. Show me the poll.

I genuinely don't know any SDLP voters who actively wish for the maintenance of the union. If they do, they're voting for the wrong party.

DoireNod

owenc wrote: »

You people are so biased you make me angry!? That is true in belfast but not here they don't go on like that here they vote for who they want.. Btw dup is largest it has most seats..

Where's 'here'? And again, exactly who do you claim to be speaking on behalf of? The DUP has the most seats, but Sinn Féin got the most votes. Hence, Sinn Féin are the largest party.

FlutterinBantam

DoireNod wrote: »

Where's 'here'? And again, exactly who do you claim to be speaking on behalf of? The DUP has the most seats, but Sinn Féin got the most votes. Hence, Sinn Féin are the largest party.

How do you figure that out?

lugha

dlofnep wrote: »

Actually - Sinn Féin wants to unify Ireland. It doesn't want to bring anything into anything. It also wants to integrate unionists into it. Just like Nelson Mandela wanted to integrate the white community into a new South Africa.

Mandela engaged in what is described as terrorist activities. You stated he was great. So yes, it is convenient.

There is an important difference between Mandela and Sinn Fein pre-GFA. Mandela had the support of the people he claimed to represent. The IRA purported to represent the Irish people, even though it was patently obvious that they had no authority to do so. They were even arrogant enough to declare themselves to be the legitimate government of Ireland.

wolfpawnat

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No it isn't, Shinn Féin are ex-terrorists. They shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the halls of power.

Aha!?! And Labour, all the other parties have not had their "terrorist" beginnings!?! (minus the Greens of course) And they may have left them behind for now, but they are all planning their 2016 celebration of said "terrorism". And even the Tubrity's are proud of their repubilcan heritage and their part to play in Irelands freedom.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are they though ? I have a strong suspicion Catholics voted for Sinn Fein on either Sectarian or Nationalist grounds rather then an informed vote on their policies.

I was on the Falls road in Belfast during the election campaign, the people of the Norht know exactly what SF are about, and they seemed delighted to see Gerry at their doors. And if the people of the North wanted to vote Nationalist, but not SF, there is always the SDLP!

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed it does hurt me when ex-terrorists and socialist/nationalists get into power.

Gerry Adams was never convicted of terrorist acts. Where are you pulling such a claim from.

McGuinness had been convicted of such crimes, did his time and now wants to be part of a political solution. He has as much right to do that as the former Unionist terrorists he sits across the table from.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Nelson Mandela is a great man. Don't even dare compare him to Martin McGuinness.

But he was deemed a terorist too, so he would be deemed closer to Gerry in my eyes, as Gerry was never proven to be involved in such acts either!

owenc

DoireNod wrote: »

I genuinely don't know any SDLP voters who actively wish for the maintenance of the union. If they do, they're voting for the wrong party.

My granny does! My mums also catholic and she voted unionists.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

How do you figure that out?

Sinn Féin: 171,942 votes
DUP: 168,216 votes

Which means that more people voted for Sinn Féin than any other party.

DoireNod

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

How do you figure that out?

Sinn Féin: 171,942
DUP: 168,216
SDLP: 110,970

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/election2010/results/region/6.stm

DoireNod

owenc wrote: »

My granny does! My mums also catholic and she voted unionists.

Ask your granny why she's voting for a nationalist party if she wants to see the maintenance of the union.